blacksoviet
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Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 2:56 am

Will there ever be a point when the airlines have to choose efficiency over frequency?
 
DeltaXNA
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 2:59 am

If the many business travelers between those 2 cities want less flights with larger planes then the airlines will do it. But business travelers want a large choice of flight times.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:02 am

Wide bodies already have returned to JFK-LAX.

DL offers 4x 767-300ER and 1x A330-300 service.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:09 am

Looking at a random day in June (25) on DL, there are 6 flights JFK-LAX, 3 763, 1 A333 and 1 752.The route you mentioned is probably one of the most widebody-heavy domestic routes in the US...
DH8A DH8B CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E75 E90 D93 M88 318 319 320 321 333 343 712 732 733 734 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77L 77W
 
Sightseer
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:10 am

They haven't left; tomorrow DL is running 4x 763s and 1x A333 on JFK-LAX.

Granted, AA used to run 10 daily 762s.

[Edited 2016-05-01 20:22:42]
 
brahmin
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:16 am

Does the business traveller wag the airline or vice versa?
 
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reffado
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:28 am

I know it's a different route, but I find it interesting that AA runs LAX-MIA with the 77W. You'd think JFK would use the big equipment before Miami.

But, as said before, business travelers seem to prefer frequency variety.
 
rta
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:29 am

UA will soon have the 787 for a short while on EWR/LAX
 
tortugamon
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:31 am

Quoting rta (Reply 7):

UA will soon have the 787 for a short while on EWR/LAX


I think I read that was cancelled.

tortugamon
 
Prost
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting Reffado (Reply 6):
I know it's a different route, but I find it interesting that AA runs LAX-MIA with the 77W. You'd think JFK would use the big equipment before Miami.

I believe this is to bridge the 77W equipment from one international hub to another. My guess is if LAX had a more robust South America route network, or MIA had any Asia network on AA you wouldn't see the 77W flying between the two cities.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:36 am

Quoting Reffado (Reply 6):
I know it's a different route, but I find it interesting that AA runs LAX-MIA with the 77W. You'd think JFK would use the big equipment before Miami.

Why? AA is focused on frequency on the JFK-LAX and the wide bodies on MIA-LAX are there morseo because of rotations than capacity.
 
blacksoviet
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:36 am

Has AA lost business since they stopped flying the 3-class 762 on the route?
 
rta
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:38 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):
I think I read that was cancelled.

Its still loaded in the schedule.

Interesting if true, though.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 6:40 am

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 11):

Has AA lost business since they stopped flying the 3-class 762 on the route?

The A321 carries all of the F seats, all of the J seats, and ~70% of the Y seats while burning about one half of the fuel as the 762.
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blacksoviet
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 10:43 am

Have they had to increase frequency to make up for the lost Y seats?
 
Okcflyer
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 10:44 am

Most US 3 configured international widebodies don't provide a lower CASM compared to A321/739 on these transcons. The only reasons to send a wide body are for fleet repositioning and fleet utilization. Utilization only make sense if you're fleet constrained and you have somewhere else you can send the A321/739/752 that can be generate acceptable margins with enough Widebody slack to cover the flying. Seat costs aren't less unless the aircraft are densely configured for domestic / Hawaii use like UA is doing to 19 772's. Only then are is CASM low enough to make a WB economically competitive outright but these aren't premium enough to satisfy the LAX-NYC market.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 10:50 am

762 was small. Small widebody. AA took a hit it total pax I would imagine...but by time you work in extra frequency, probably not that big a hit.

UA always has 6 or 7 762s a day
AA had the 762s
TW had 3-5 767/757 mix
DL has 4 763/756 mix
Tower had 747s maybe 2 daily

The market has shaken up quite a bit over last 20 years. B6/VX/DL with widebodies and more freq/AA with more freq
 
jfk777
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 11:29 am

767 or not the A321T works very well for AA from JFK to the west coast. We loved the days of the AA 747 from LAX to JFK, there was a certain "somthing" at that time when wide cabin planes were the new thing. Today all planes except the A380, are boring with two engines. But what goes inside he planes has changed, there is an arms race for J class & First Class suites. The A321T while a boring gray airplane outisde, has benefited inside from the ME3 arms race. THat plane has the best domestic First Class ever.
 
n92r03
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 1:35 pm

Unless I'm sitting up front, I would prefer frequency. The experience in Y is crowded either way, why not at least have options that fit your schedule vs. flying on a bigger plane? The smaller the plane the less time to board, etc.
 
rbavfan
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 1:49 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 14):

Have they had to increase frequency to make up for the lost Y seats?

The number of Y seays AA has on the A321 while keeping the number of F & J the same should tell you haw few Y passengers fly them on that route. 185 seat plane with 122 seat means its Premium heavy so they are not loosing any passengers. The 762's were just light loaded in the Y cabins.
 
jfk777
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 1:53 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 19):
The number of Y seays AA has on the A321 while keeping the number of F & J the same should tell you haw few Y passengers fly them on that route. 185 seat plane with 122 seat means its Premium heavy so they are not loosing any passengers. The 762's were just light loaded in the Y cabins.

Clearly AA has little interest in the Y market nonstop from LAX to JFK, that market can be served by connections over Chicago or DFW.
 
bourbon
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 1:54 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 10):
Quoting Prost (Reply 9):

AA runs a 777-300ER that does MIA-LAX-SYD-LAX ideally.

They also can send a 777-300ER between MIA and LAX that has a routing through LHR too.
 
Sightseer
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 1:57 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 14):
Have they had to increase frequency to make up for the lost Y seats?

They have gone up to 12x daily, though probably not for the Y market.
 
Travelmanager
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
Clearly AA has little interest in the Y market nonstop from LAX to JFK, that market can be served by connections over Chicago or DFW.

I think AA has little interest in low yield Y between LAX and JFK. The main cabin can be surprisingly profitable if the capacity matches demand. What the A321 allows them to do is keep the frequency and forward cabin product needed for premium passengers while cutting back on the number of trash yield Y seats.
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):

UA will soon have the 787 for a short while on EWR/LAX


I think I read that was cancelled.

It's still operating this Summer, just a shorter period. Besides they already offer 772s on EWR-SFO 1x daily and EWR-LAX 2x daily.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Delta757MD88
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 4:52 pm

This July I am flying EWR-LAX on the 787-9 and LAX-EWR 777-200.

EWR-LAX looks like this on July 9:

9x 757-200

1x 787-9

1x 777-200

LAX-EWR looks like this on July 13:

13x 757-200

2x 777-200

The 787 probably goes on to do Australia service.
My guess is the 777's go on to do Europe service.
Flown on: MD-88/90 DC-9 717 737-7/8/900, 757-2/300, 767-3/400 777-200/300ER 787-9, E145/170/175, CRJ-100/200/700/900, A319/320 A333 A350 Q300/400.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 5:00 pm

Ever? Maybe. Only answer there is.  

Would be nice to see more WB around the domestic US skies, but that is just to add a bit more variety visually at airports around the country.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
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FedExFlyerPHL
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 5:00 pm

Granted, I don't believe it's bookable (and correct me if I'm wrong), but QF flies a 744 from LAX to JFK.
Home base: SNA, LGB, LAX
 
Delta757MD88
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Delta JFK-LAX on July 9 is:

3x 757-200

2x 767-300ER

1x A330-300

Delta LAX-JFK on July 13 is:

5x 757-200

4x 767

1x A330-300

American JFK-LAX on July 9 is:

10xA321

American LAX-JFK on July 13 is:

13x A321

JetBlue JFK-LAX on July 9 is:

7x A321

JetBlue LAX-JFK on July 13 is:

10x A321
Flown on: MD-88/90 DC-9 717 737-7/8/900, 757-2/300, 767-3/400 777-200/300ER 787-9, E145/170/175, CRJ-100/200/700/900, A319/320 A333 A350 Q300/400.
 
n515cr
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting FedExFlyerPHL (Reply 27):
Granted, I don't believe it's bookable (and correct me if I'm wrong), but QF flies a 744 from LAX to JFK.

It's not bookable solely as LAX-JFK or v.v. due to fifth freedom rights. It has to be booked as JFK-LAX-SYD or reverse.
 
Sightseer
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting n515cr (Reply 29):

Quoting FedExFlyerPHL (Reply 27):
Granted, I don't believe it's bookable (and correct me if I'm wrong), but QF flies a 744 from LAX to JFK.

It's not bookable solely as LAX-JFK or v.v. due to fifth freedom rights. It has to be booked as JFK-LAX-SYD or reverse.

Minor nitpick; I think you can also book BNE/MEL-LAX-JFK, and also AKL-LAX-JFK when QF still flew that route.

(Slightly off-topic, will AKL-LAX-JFK again be permissible once AA starts AKL?)
 
Prost
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 10:54 pm

Other airline non-revs used to be able to buy seats on QF LAX-JFK. Is that still allowed?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 11:09 pm

Delta have a lot of transcon widebody service out of Atlanta: multiple 767-300, and one 777-200LR to LAX, some 767s to SFO, one to PDX, maybe others too. Also I am booked on a 767-300 LAX-MSP next month, looking forward to that! I wonder what they have running out of DTW to the west coast.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 11:21 pm

Quoting Delta757MD88 (Reply 25):

The 787 between EWR and LAX won't be going on to Australia. It's the sole sUA frame, and will doing nothing but transcon turns until more 787s join the sUA side. Once sUA have 3 787s they're getting SFO-TPE IIRC (plus most likely SFO-EWR-SFO in between for utilisation).
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Capt.Fantastic
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Mon May 02, 2016 11:55 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 32):
I wonder what they have running out of DTW to the west coast.

Looking at May 16...

DTW-LAX 1x 767 (usually 2x daily)
DTW-SFO 1x 767
DTW-SAN 1x 767

There are also regularly scheduled 767s to LAS, PHX and SEA depending on the month / day of the week.
 
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Scooter
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 34):
DTW-SAN 1x 767

Wow, I didn't realize DL was running a 763 between DTW and SAN. Cool!
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing obnoxiously-detailed trip reports.
 
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XAM2175
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 11:52 am

Quoting FedExFlyerPHL (Reply 27):
I don't believe it's bookable (and correct me if I'm wrong), but QF flies a 744 from LAX to JFK
Quoting Sightseer (Reply 30):
I think you can also book BNE/MEL-LAX-JFK... will AKL-LAX-JFK again be permissible once AA starts AKL?


Legally, QF can only carry a passenger between LAX and JFK or vice-versa, or to any other hypothetical domestic destination in the US, if that passenger has on the same itinerary arrived in the US on an international flight or will on the same itinerary depart the US on an international flight.

For reasons of practicality, QF further apply their own restriction that said international flight/s on the same itinerary must also be QF flights. However, they do not need to be "connecting" flights - that is, passengers may break their journey in LAX for as long as they wish within standard ticket validity conditions.

I understand also that the only-QF-flights rule is satisfied merely by the flight carrying a QF code, so AA-operated LAX-SYD or v.v. qualifies if the passenger is booked on the QF codeshare number. Should AA LAX-AKL or v.v. receive a QF codeshare then it's reasonable to assume the same will apply there.
 
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intotheair
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 12:15 pm

Screw widebodies. I'll take an E175 if I could on this route.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 2:02 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
Clearly AA has little interest in the Y market nonstop from LAX to JFK, that market can be served by connections over Chicago or DFW.

Alternately, those Y passengers could fly DL non-stops on larger aircraft (on average) with a higher ratio of Y:J seating.

If DL still the leader in passenger count market share O&D LAX-JFK since B6 started and UA moved SFO/LAX flights to EWR?
 
delimit
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 2:44 pm

Quoting intotheair (Reply 37):
Screw widebodies. I'll take an E175 if I could on this route.

I'll take the DL 763ER over pretty much anything else that flies in the market. 2/3/2 with AVOD in the main cabin. Such an easy ride.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 3:32 pm

Quoting intotheair (Reply 37):
Screw widebodies. I'll take an E175 if I could on this route.

Funny you would say that. Back in the day when B6 had E190s on the west coast, to help roatate them back to the east coast (which normally happened through AUS), there would be LGB - IAD redeye flights on the E190. It must have been one of the most comfortable transcon redeyes around at that time (at least in economy) LOL!
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
klwright69
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 3:36 pm

Here something done memory lane, in either 1991 or 1992 when I was working at Continental, here was the breakdown of EWR-LAX flights.

3 or 4 A300s flights (not nonstop) but stopped in DEN going between EWR and LAX. There was one flight, a sole nonstop between the 2 cities, and it was a 747.

Their 757's came on in 94, that changed everything for them. More nonstops from EWR to the west coast such as SNA and SEA came along then.

It makes sense the sole 787's on the sUA side would do only these transcon flights. There would be no other way to logistically manage a sUA sub fleet of 787's.
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 41):
3 or 4 A300s flights (not nonstop) but stopped in DEN going between EWR and LAX. There was one flight, a sole nonstop between the 2 cities, and it was a 747.

No, they had 3 daily nonstop , a mix of A300s, DC-10s, 747s to LAX, up until 1992 or 1993 when they went all BusinessFirst DC10s to LAX and SFO from EWR.

Here's their EWR-LAX schedule from October 1991:

3 daily

2 daily A300s, 1 DC-0 (THU), 1 747 (MO, TU, SA) and Rheintalflug (Austria)">WE), 1 A300 (FR, SA, SU)

http://www.departedflights.com/EWR91p4.html

Here's the 1994 Schedule,

3 Daily DC-10s, BusinessFirst, EWR-LAX

http://www.departedflights.com/CO103094p35.html

Here's their 1987 schedule, 2 daily 747s EWR-LAX

http://www.departedflights.com/CO020187p17.html
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 4:18 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
The A321T while a boring gray airplane outisde, has benefited inside from the ME3 arms race. THat plane has the best domestic First Class ever.

The A321T is NOT a boring plane, inside or out! You're crazy LOL

AA has the best domestic product, probably as well as B6.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 4:26 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 40):
Funny you would say that. Back in the day when B6 had E190s on the west coast, to help roatate them back to the east coast (which normally happened through AUS), there would be LGB - IAD redeye flights on the E190. It must have been one of the most comfortable transcon redeyes around at that time (at least in economy) LOL!

It was really a one off for low season in the fall. It was a disaster and was never loaded again. Kinda like the shot lived JFK DEN/SLC 190 turns.

Someone in should have been fired for trying it  
 
klwright69
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 42):

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 41):
3 or 4 A300s flights (not nonstop) but stopped in DEN going between EWR and LAX. There was one flight, a sole nonstop between the 2 cities, and it was a 747.

No, they had 3 daily nonstop , a mix of A300s, DC-10s, 747s to LAX, up until 1992 or 1993 when they went all BusinessFirst DC10s to LAX and SFO from EWR.

Ah okay, the A300s I recall were nonstops then. But a 747 nonstop to LAX. How Tower Air'esque...
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 45):
But a 747 nonstop to LAX. How Tower Air'esque...

More like PeoplExpress' esque.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 6:12 pm

Yeah, the A321T product on AA is quite good and is quite popular. I don't know what the loads are like, but whenever I've looked at booking a trip via JFK to LAX, I've noticed that on most flights 75% of the seats in business are booked (before the first upgrade window opens up).

Something tells me they are doing A-OK on this route. Don't know how JFK-SFO is doing, but the tech sector must be supporting that route.

Now if they'd only add DCA and/or IAD to LAX with the 321T....
 
WesternA318
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 7:27 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 39):
I'll take the DL 763ER over pretty much anything else that flies in the market. 2/3/2 with AVOD in the main cabin. Such an easy ride.
Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 43):
The A321T is NOT a boring plane, inside or out! You're crazy LOL

I live and die by the A321T mutant. Its the ONLY way I ever get to JFK nowadays (even though I back track from SLC to LAX to catch it). You wont see me taking another airline if Im the one paying for it.

[Edited 2016-05-03 12:56:19]
 
bourbon
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RE: Will Widebodies Ever Return To JFK-LAX?

Tue May 03, 2016 7:48 pm

Quoting n515cr (Reply 29):

Can US Airline employees ZED or ID90 between LAX and JFK on QF if only travelling between the two cities?

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