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flybynight
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Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Tue May 03, 2016 11:23 pm

I am thinking of course Toronto and perhaps Montreal.

Western Canada is in AS' backyard so it is logical there is decent AS coverage here, but nothing east Edmonton to my knowledge.
Heia Norge!
 
superjeff
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Tue May 03, 2016 11:28 pm

I wouldn't expect anything. I believe they did try YYZ a couple of years ago but it didn't work. There are significant costs associated with Toronto and Montreal and it is hard for any airline (including, btw, AC and WS) to handle such routes successfully.
 
Noise
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Tue May 03, 2016 11:31 pm

YYZ-SEA and YYZ-PDX are already served by AC. Even YYZ-PDX seems to have trouble working as AC tried this route every now and then.

With that in mind, I don't see additional YYZ-SEA happening in the near future and YYZ-PDX is even more out of the question.

YUL-SEA is still too small of a market to be served profitably. It's close to being large enough, but not there yet.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Tue May 03, 2016 11:51 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
YYZ-SEA and YYZ-PDX are already served by AC. Even YYZ-PDX seems to have trouble working as AC tried this route every now and then.

There is a little O/D, certainly n0t enough for a daily non-stop. AC makes the route work because of the Intl connections via YYZ to both PDX & SEA. AC is advertised as an option to Europe in both local markets & even with that, AC can't seem to make PDX work year round.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 1):
I believe they did try YYZ a couple of years ago but it didn't work.

More than a couple years ago, try a couple decades almost, but good memory, they did it from LAX on M80's & you are right, it did not work well for them, but with their current presence at LAX & soon to be SFO, maybe flights from those cities might work, but I'm certain that AS has their eyes on more domestic routes & Central America or Caribbean.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Tue May 03, 2016 11:54 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 1):
I believe they did try YYZ a couple of years ago but it didn't work.

If by "a couple" you mean "more than 20," then yes, AS did fly LAXYYZ for a brief period in the 90s.  

AC dropped a capacity bomb on them by upgauging service and dropping fares in the process.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boeing744
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 2:10 am

Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
YYZ-SEA and YYZ-PDX are already served by AC. Even YYZ-PDX seems to have trouble working as AC tried this route every now and then.

AC recently upgraded the YYZ-SEA route to an A319 from an E190. I took the flight one time and it was completely full; a lot of people did seem to be connecting to Europe, though, so who knows how much O/D there was (I was continuing to Montreal).

Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
YUL-SEA is still too small of a market to be served profitably. It's close to being large enough, but not there yet.

I have always wondered if this route might work. There are a few significant economic similarities between Seattle and Montreal, namely the aviation industry and tech. I fly the route a few times a year myself and have met many others who do too. In any case, I could see AC taking a shot at it before AS just given the *A fidelity in Montreal.
 
Noise
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 2:13 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
I have always wondered if this route might work. There are a few significant economic similarities between Seattle and Montreal, namely the aviation industry and tech. I fly the route a few times a year myself and have met many others who do too. In any case, I could see AC taking a shot at it before AS just given the *A fidelity in Montreal.

Highly doubt AC would ever take a stab at YUL-SEA. I don't see them overflying their YYZ, YYC and YVR hubs in favor of serving YUL-SEA directly.

AS, on the other hand, has SEA as their primary hub and might be more inclined to serve the route directly.
 
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MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 2:51 am

This is why I hate the non-network carriers. They don't have the guts to break into new, challenging markets - and they don't have the stamina to stay there if they ever did.

Look at VX to YYZ. How long did that last?... But crappy leisure markets that are already flooded - like to Mexico - I suppose are fine in order to take the opportunistic path of least resistance....

AS may be "proudly all Boeing", but until they fly SFO or LAX to YYZ and/or YUL, there's little to be proud of.   
 
IPFreely
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 3:39 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 7):
This is why I hate the non-network carriers. They don't have the guts to break into new, challenging markets - and they don't have the stamina to stay there if they ever did.

It's rare when a post actually makes me laugh out loud, but this one did. Congrats.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 3:41 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 7):
This is why I hate the non-network carriers. They don't have the guts to break into new, challenging markets - and they don't have the stamina to stay there if they ever did.

A non-network carrier typically needs to have critical mass at one end of a route to make it viable, or at least have a shot. Otherwise they're just needlessly burning cash.

Why does staying away from markets without a clear business case or economic justification constitute "lacking guts" in your world?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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GE9X
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 3:43 am

YYZ is the most expensive airport in the world. Alaska really has no reason to go there unless they want to bleed money. From where would it fly, Las Vegas, for trash yields? None of its focus cities are strong YYZ/YUL markets, and those routes that have some traffic (YYZ/YUL-LAX) are already very well served.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 3:53 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 7):
This is why I hate the non-network carriers. They don't have the guts to break into new, challenging markets - and they don't have the stamina to stay there if they ever did.

Well they fly ANC-ADK so I think you are wrong.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 4:38 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):

YYZ is the most expensive airport in the world. Alaska really has no reason to go there unless they want to bleed money.

Some U.S. carriers find lots of reasons to serve YYZ. AA - without codeshares - has 29 flights scheduled from YYZ today. Delta has 21. High per passenger fees don't on their own disqualify an airport from service.
 
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flybynight
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 7):

The funny thing is, they truly aren't, and will be less so with Virgin Airbuses' coming in. They need to remove that. It was kind of joke anyway in my mind when AS still had MD80's flying around. Yes, Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas in '97, but those planes were never Boeing.
Heia Norge!
 
atct
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 8:21 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 11):
Well they fly ANC-ADK so I think you are wrong.

Bad example as there are 2 distinct items making money for Alaska on this route.

1. Cargo.
2. and most important, a government subsidy under EAS
Trikes are for kids!
 
b6sea
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Wed May 04, 2016 10:49 pm

I've always said I'd love to see a flight to Winnipeg, which I think could make sense for connections (through SEA), but I think YYZ YUL are just dreams at this point regardless of how much I would love to see these and think AS could make them work.

We could always start a petition!

[Edited 2016-05-04 15:54:38]

[Edited 2016-05-04 15:55:26]
 
Sparrow787
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 2:11 pm

AS can barely expand east of the US lol
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 16):
AS can barely expand east of the US lol

If by "barely expand" you mean every major city along the east coast as well as other key markets, the I suppose you are right. Off the top of my head, Miami, Charlotte and Dulles are the only significant east coast airports without Alaska service: and Miami is served via Fort Lauderdale (and code share on AA's SEAMIA); Charlotte is covered with AA; and Washington DC is served, quite well in fact, from National. In fact, AS offers more non-perimeter flights from DCA to the west coast than anyone else. LaGuardia can't be served nonstop to the west coast.

Toronto is super expensive to fly into. They tried it, couldn't make money. Maybe they could make it successful now, depends if they feel they can make money off it. Montreal is probably unlikely. For now, they can route traffic over AA and DL hubs in the midwest.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 4:14 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 17):
Off the top of my head, Miami, Charlotte and Dulles are the only significant east coast airports without Alaska service:

AS does have daily SEAIAD service. They flew SEAMIA but moved the service to FLL instead since the cost per enplanement was so high at MIA.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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flybynight
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 4:24 pm

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 16):
AS can barely expand east of the US lol

I don't think there are plans to expand East of the U.S. (unless that was just a typo).
But, damn, would I love to jump on an AS 787 and land in London 9 hours later!!
Heia Norge!
 
as739x
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 4:53 pm

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 7):

Why exactly would they fly a route that makes no money? SFO-YYZ on VX was horrific. Flights routinely left with as few as 20-30 passengers. The VX CEO came out and clearly said they had underestimated the loyalty of AC and STAR passengers to AC on the route.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 7):
AS may be "proudly all Boeing", but until they fly SFO or LAX to YYZ and/or YUL, there's little to be proud of.

So they should be proud to start a flight that once announce AC dumps additional seats, starts 777s or 330, but they can say "hey, I am proud the we are running the empty 737's and serving Canada"?
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 4:59 pm

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 16):
AS can barely expand east of the US lol

Apparently you've missed a lot of aviation news the past few years. Your "barely" includes BOS, EWR, JFK, PHL, BWI, DCA, IAD, CHS, RDU, TPA, MCO, FLL, MSY, BNA, DTW, ORD. I bet there are a few I missed too.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 17):
LaGuardia can't be served nonstop to the west coast.

Can't it be done on Saturdays only? AA tried LAX-LGA on Saturdays with a 757 several years ago. Maybe it was DL, I don't recall. But yes, at the point it's not really worth it.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 7:10 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
YYZ-SEA and YYZ-PDX are already served by AC. Even YYZ-PDX seems to have trouble working as AC tried this route every now and then.

You do realize that two different carriers, with completely different networks on opposite ends of routes like this mean that they could have a completely different outcome. What might be wildly successful for one airline may not work for another one.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):
YYZ is the most expensive airport in the world.

Do you have a current data source for this assertion?
 
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flybynight
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 05, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):
YYZ is the most expensive airport in the world

It could be, but where does one verify such information?
Heia Norge!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Fri May 06, 2016 1:44 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
Quoting superjeff (Reply 1):
I believe they did try YYZ a couple of years ago but it didn't work.

More than a couple years ago, try a couple decades almost, but good memory, they did it from LAX on M80's & you are right, it did not work well for them,

A quarter of a century ago. Started October 1991 with twice-daily MD-80s LAX-YYZ. The route was dropped July 3, 1991 after only 8 months. There was no way AS could compete with multiple daily AC flights, mostly widebodies, and AC's massive frequent flyer base. I'm surprised the MD-80 could even operate LAX-YYZ (2,175 mi/1.890 nm) with an economic payload. Were there any longer MD-80 nonstops on U.S. carriers?

Excerpt from AS press release dated June 26, 1992 announcing various changes including dropping LAX-YYZ:

In another development, the airline announced that it is discontinuing its twice-daily round-trip service between Los Angeles and Toronto, effective after the evening departure July 3. Alaska began Los Angeles-Toronto service in October, becoming the only U.S. carrier with non-stop service between the two cities. "Low yields, discount pricing on connecting service offered by other carriers through Midwest hubs, and difficulty establishing adequate identity in Toronto led us to conclude that there was no foreseeable improvement in the economics of the operation," Vecci said. Toronto is only the third market Alaska has withdrawn from since the U.S. industry was deregulated in 1979. "It's clear that when the prospects for a profitable operation don't exist, we're compelled to take action no matter how unpleasant," Vecci said.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):
YYZ is the most expensive airport in the world.

I doubt that's still the case since the Canadian dollar plunged. It's improved a bit recently but is still much lower than a few years ago.
 
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GE9X
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Fri May 06, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 23):
It could be, but where does one verify such information?
Quoting drgmobile (Reply 22):
Do you have a current data source for this assertion?

Absolutely, this is a report prepared for the Parliament of Canada (Senate Standing Committee on Transportation and Communications) in June of 2012 : http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/co...tee/411/trcm/rep/rep05jun12-e.pdf. The relevant information is on page 3 and is also referenced on this 2014 article by the National Post here: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...malcolm-kathleen-wynnes-travel-tax

This fact is not new either, here is a story from 2005: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/land...ort-the-world-s-costliest-1.562679
 
Sparrow787
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Fri May 06, 2016 4:24 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):

You're right, with their hourly service out of those cities all you see is Alaska planes at those airports, not to mention how popular Alaska Airlines is here in the east coast, people just can't stop talking about it 
 
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flybynight
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Fri May 06, 2016 3:53 pm

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 26):
You're right, with their hourly service out of those cities all you see is Alaska planes at those airports, not to mention how popular Alaska Airlines is here in the east coast, people just can't stop talking about it

AS is a west coast airline. Take a look at the major west coast airports and you see plenty of AS planes, especially at PDX, LAX and of course SEA.

Maybe they will have an east coast hub one day, but the point being they are flying to just about every major city now on the East Coast.
Heia Norge!
 
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flybynight
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Fri May 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 25):
Absolutely, this is a report prepared for the Parliament of Canada (Senate Standing Committee on Transportation and Communications) in June of 2012 : http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/co...tee/411/trcm/rep/rep05jun12-e.pdf. The relevant information is on page 3 and is also referenced on this 2014 article by the National Post here: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...malcolm-kathleen-wynnes-travel-tax

This fact is not new either, here is a story from 2005: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/land...ort-the-world-s-costliest-1.562679

Very interesting. Just playing around with some numbers that works out to maybe $40 per passenger ($13,000 with 320 people on a typical 747). And that was 10 years ago.
Heia Norge!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Fri May 06, 2016 5:15 pm

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 26):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):

You're right, with their hourly service out of those cities all you see is Alaska planes at those airports, not to mention how popular Alaska Airlines is here in the east coast, people just can't stop talking about it

What exactly is your point, or your axe to grind? AS has expanded extensively to the east coast, mostly from SEA but also from PDX, LAX, and SAN. Not sure what your gripe is.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Sat May 07, 2016 1:06 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 25):
Absolutely, this is a report prepared for the Parliament of Canada (Senate Standing Committee on Transportation and Communications) in June of 2012 : http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/co...tee/411/trcm/rep/rep05jun12-e.pdf. The relevant information is on page 3 and is also referenced on this 2014 article by the National Post here: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...malcolm-kathleen-wynnes-travel-tax

So the source is an IATA executive five years ago. The information may or may not be correct today.
 
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GE9X
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Sat May 07, 2016 1:51 am

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 30):
So the source is an IATA executive five years ago. The information may or may not be correct today.

I guess we can be indefinitely obtuse and pedantic about who is truly the first on this particular day of this particular month of this particular year. It was a reasonable assertion to make because it has been a well documented fact over the years, but you're right, things may have changed since then, so maybe Toronto is 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 10th, especially with the fall of the CA$. In any case, the fact remains that Canadian airports are very expensive, Toronto chief among them, and that was the point of my original post.
 
CANPILOT
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Sat May 07, 2016 2:23 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 31):
I guess we can be indefinitely obtuse and pedantic about who is truly the first on this particular day of this particular month of this particular year. It was a reasonable assertion to make because it has been a well documented fact over the years, but you're right, things may have changed since then, so maybe Toronto is 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 10th, especially with the fall of the CA$. In any case, the fact remains that Canadian airports are very expensive, Toronto chief among them, and that was the point of my original post.

The charges and fees are available here: http://www.torontopearson.com/en/Airport_Charges_and_Fees/

Using flybynight's example, I am sure you can also work out approximate cost for a typical 747 with 320 passengers.

I agree while it may be not necessarily be the most expensive any longer, it is certainly very expensive compared to other airports.
 
N1120A
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Sun May 08, 2016 7:48 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):
YYZ is the most expensive airport in the world.

Well, that is pretty unverified
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
bjorn14
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Mon May 09, 2016 3:25 pm

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 32):
it is certainly very expensive compared to other airports.

Which makes me wonder why YHM doesn't get more service?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Mon May 09, 2016 5:00 pm



Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):

Which makes me wonder why YHM doesn't get more service?

Because it takes over an hour to get to YHM without any traffic from downtown Toronto . Which is almost never because the Queen Elizabeth Way (QEW) the main highway connecting Toronto and Hamilton is always completely stuck in the morning and in the late afternoon going into the evening, which can often mean 2+ hours at least to drive there. If I recall correctly the train link ends short of Hamilton as well in Burlington, so that isn't really an option either. The last issue is that if you are willing to drive to get a cheaper ticket, its not much further to cross the border to BUF which has plenty of cheaper north american flights.

[Edited 2016-05-09 10:04:12]
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
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RE: Will AS Expand To Eastern Canada

Thu May 12, 2016 1:32 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):
Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 35):

its actually more of a lack of facilities. if you look at Hamilton and areas surrounding it that alone should be enough to sustain
much greater service at YHM. however the airport is poorly managed and wont invest in passenger services. Instead they waste
it on a cargo facility which I believe sits mostly empty except for Cargojet usage.
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