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- blacksoviet
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
Would they be losing less money today?
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
I think more B77W could have been the best option, AF and KL both operate many of them and AD could be saving a lot of money with them.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter): Would they be losing less money today? |
Unlikely. Perhaps if they stuck with 77Ws they'd iron out greater scale efficiencies but the true weakness of AF lies in its fundamental inability to reform it's internal culture and labour practices, thus making it near impossible to be able to compete with the likes of EK et al. The differences between having A380s instead of 748s or more 77Ws would be largely immaterial in comparison to the most significant problem, namely the costs of maintaining its current workforce structure.
[Edited 2016-05-07 03:21:45]
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
I see they have been interchanging the 777W and A380 a lot to Jnb, not sure why.
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- Clydenairways
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter): today? |
not a bit. AF's problems are not with the aircraft types it has. It's just not a lean organisation.
Anyway, people on anet put far too much emphasis on aircraft types. The most important thing for an airline to get right is an efficient company structure in place and maintain it, that's the hard part. Aircraft type and product are much easier to change.
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- deltal1011man
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter): |
replacing one failure with another isn't how an airline makes money.
777-300ERs? that would have probably been the right choice but that isn't the politically correct thing to do..........
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
AF has an internal battle with its cost structure, and in comparison to much leaner KLM needs an overhaul. It is no secret it has the highest costs in the industry. De Juniac tried to address these issues, however as you know resulted in one of the most expensive strikes in the history of the company.
He has also done really well in bringing AF back among the premium carriers with their new on board products and refocusing on the passenger. The previous CEOs allowed AF to fall behind, when they should have invested in newer products. La Premiere is now one of the most sought after First class products, and if not one of the most exclusive, Business is among the best in the industry with new menus and improved service, Premium Economy has been made a lot more comfortable and improved on board service as well. Economy has seen a massive transformation with comfortable seats and improved IFE and service.
As the previous thread about AF reconfiguring the A380s with more seats is in part a way of the airline trying to make the fleet fit with its current plans. A340s will be leaving, and 787 & A350 aircraft will be entering the fleet soon. They have significantly reduced fleet types which in itself reduces costs.
I however do see AF ordering the 779 to replace the A380 if it continues to be lost within the fleet, and of course A320NEO aircraft to start replacing the oldest aircraft.
AF Mainline Fleet should look like this soon:
A380
777
A350
787
A330
A318/19/20
He has also done really well in bringing AF back among the premium carriers with their new on board products and refocusing on the passenger. The previous CEOs allowed AF to fall behind, when they should have invested in newer products. La Premiere is now one of the most sought after First class products, and if not one of the most exclusive, Business is among the best in the industry with new menus and improved service, Premium Economy has been made a lot more comfortable and improved on board service as well. Economy has seen a massive transformation with comfortable seats and improved IFE and service.
As the previous thread about AF reconfiguring the A380s with more seats is in part a way of the airline trying to make the fleet fit with its current plans. A340s will be leaving, and 787 & A350 aircraft will be entering the fleet soon. They have significantly reduced fleet types which in itself reduces costs.
I however do see AF ordering the 779 to replace the A380 if it continues to be lost within the fleet, and of course A320NEO aircraft to start replacing the oldest aircraft.
AF Mainline Fleet should look like this soon:
A380
777
A350
787
A330
A318/19/20
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): that would have probably been the right choice but that isn't the politically correct thing to do.......... |
That must be why they operate so few Boeings...
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
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- jmchevallier
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
It would seen that Air France is suffering from a case of "Pan Am-Itis", but they just aren't aware of it inside....
They were forced to buy A380's by their Parent Company: The French Government!!
They were forced to buy A380's by their Parent Company: The French Government!!
LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY: Where your camera looks just like a stinger missile to the Airport Police!!
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting jmchevallier (Reply 8): |
I believe his post was sarcastic.
| Quoting scbriml (Reply 7): |
I read that comment as saying AF was more charitable to the A380 specifically than was warranted, not that AF had favoured Airbus over Boeing generally.
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- flyingclrs727
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting kl838 (Reply 6): I however do see AF ordering the 779 to replace the A380 if it continues to be lost within the fleet, and of course A320NEO aircraft to start replacing the oldest aircraft. |
Perhaps AF could sell their A380 fleet to BA whose management says they might be interested in expanding their A380 fleet if they could get some used. Then AF could order some 779's. Or, if they acted soon, they could order some end of the line 77W's deeply discounted.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 11): |
The only issue being AF selected EA on their A380 and BA has RR on theirs, now if they got them cheap enough it wouldn't bother BA that much as let's face it BA operates a mixed fleet of 777 with GE and RR birds in the fleet but I do think they would have to get them at a steal to justify the added complexity
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
Whole concept of this thread is false.
There was nothing known as the 747-8 when Air France ordered the A380.
AF A380 order was announced in 2000. Boeing did not announce the 747-8 model until 5 years later in 2005.
There simply was nothing on the market besides the A380 for airlines that wanted something more then the 744 at the time.
BA said any used A380s "must have" Rolls Royce engines. AF has EA engine option.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...walsh-says-new-aircraft-too-pricey
There was nothing known as the 747-8 when Air France ordered the A380.
AF A380 order was announced in 2000. Boeing did not announce the 747-8 model until 5 years later in 2005.
There simply was nothing on the market besides the A380 for airlines that wanted something more then the 744 at the time.
| Quoting Flyingclrs727 (Reply 11): Perhaps AF could sell their A380 fleet to BA whose management says they might be interested in expanding their A380 fleet if they could get some used. |
BA said any used A380s "must have" Rolls Royce engines. AF has EA engine option.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...walsh-says-new-aircraft-too-pricey
mercure f-wtcc
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting chiki (Reply 3): I see they have been interchanging the 777W and A380 a lot to Jnb, not sure why. |
They have added more A380 on some routes such Abidjan and since early 2016, Mexico is now served with A380. Moreover, B77Ws which fly to Johannesburg are now fitted with new Best & Beyond class. Johannesburg is a high yield route.
| Quoting jmchevallier (Reply 8): Unfair ! AF does operate 70 B777 (launch customer of the 77W) and its subsidiary Transavia has an all B737 fleet ! |
Yep and Air France has operated the boeing family from 707 to 777 except for the B757.
They used B707 (till early 80s), B727 (till 90s), B737 (till mid 2000s) B747 (till mid 2010s), & B767 (till early 2000s).
[Edited 2016-05-07 09:56:54]
Rwanda Aviation
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- blacksoviet
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
Why didn't they order the 757? The 757 shares the same cockpit with the 762 and 763.
Maybe back in 2000 they should have never ordered the A380 and waited 5 or 6 years then ordered new 744s to replace their old 744s. They could have gotten a discount on end of line 744s.
[Edited 2016-05-07 10:10:11]
Maybe back in 2000 they should have never ordered the A380 and waited 5 or 6 years then ordered new 744s to replace their old 744s. They could have gotten a discount on end of line 744s.
[Edited 2016-05-07 10:10:11]
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting 321neo (Reply 2): Unlikely. Perhaps if they stuck with 77Ws they'd iron out greater scale efficiencies but the true weakness of AF lies in its fundamental inability to reform it's internal culture and labour practices, thus making it near impossible to be able to compete with the likes of EK et al. The differences between having A380s instead of 748s or more 77Ws would be largely immaterial in comparison to the most significant problem, namely the costs of maintaining its current workforce structure. |
Wouldn't say it better!
AF will keep on bleeding money (good current results are only virtual as they most part comes from lower fuel prices!) as long as management won't find a solution to kill this horrible labor mentality, and won't lower the structural cost!
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting Clydenairways (Reply 4): AF's problems are not with the aircraft types it has |
This is 100% correct. While a.net posters create thread after thread about how some airline is doomed because they have a slightly mixed variant of some aircraft type in their fleet or the galleys are configured wrong on 18% of their planes, it really isn't that important to the overall success of an airline.
These videos show why Air France cannot be successful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D0znDeE6E0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E21BMrIkj8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe2um8gk3Xs
No business, in any industry, can be successful when burdened with so many totally useless employees.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 15): Why didn't they order the 757? The 757 shares the same cockpit with the 762 and 763. |
They have ordered A310s. A310s have mainly operated to West Africa or to the Middle East. Maybe A310s have provided better cargo capacity than B757s, for such routes.
A310s and B767s were replaced by A330s
| Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 15): They could have gotten a discount on end of line 744s. |
They took delevery of their last B747-400s, in 2003 (pax version) and in 2004 (cargo version)
Most of Air France B747-400s, were added between 1989 and 1992, some of them were ex UTA. They retired last B747 classic passengers, in mid 2000s.
As someone has said in this thread, when Air France has decided to start to replace its last B747s "as soon as possible" (not only with B777-300ERs), Boeing did not announce the B747-8I
[Edited 2016-05-07 11:53:09]
Rwanda Aviation
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting kl838 (Reply 6): AF has an internal battle with its cost structure, and in comparison to much leaner KLM needs an overhaul. It is no secret it has the highest costs in the industry. De Juniac tried to address these issues, however as you know resulted in one of the most expensive strikes in the history of the company. |
As I have not followed Air France that closely, could you elaborate on its internal problems a little? Is this a situation where they granted lots of concessions when times were good and now they can't afford them, or something else?
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
To answer the thread title, LOL NO.
AF is internally over cost. The A380s would be fine if their cost base was sorted.
AF is internally over cost. The A380s would be fine if their cost base was sorted.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): 777-300ERs? that would have probably been the right choice but that isn't the politically correct thing to do.......... |
Right - you do realise AF has one of the biggest 777 fleets worldwide? 2/3 of their long-haul fleet consists of 777s. AF operate 70 of them, 43 of which are 773ERs. The only airlines that have more 777s are EK (146) and UA (74), and the only airlines that operate more 773ERs are EK (110) and CX (53).
But why let facts come in the way of some dearly held beliefs.
| Quoting Clydenairways (Reply 4): not a bit. AF's problems are not with the aircraft types it has. It's just not a lean organisation. |
| Quoting coolian2 (Reply 20): AF is internally over cost. The A380s would be fine if their cost base was sorted. |
Indeed. If the aircraft types they operate really were the reason AF were making losses (which, to be clear, I think is missing the point), surely a 70-strong subfleet has a bigger effect than a fleet consisting of only 10 planes...
[Edited 2016-05-07 14:14:30]
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
Whatever "mistakes" Air France made by ordering the A380, the solution to that "ptoblem" today is not 747-8's. Is the answer more 777 or A350-1000, none is the wrong answer. AF problem with the A380 has to be structural, if a European airline with a huge hub in Paris can't find 10 routes where to fly those whale its not the planes fault. Asian cities want it, Johannesburg wants it, LAX, SFO, JFK and MIA want the thing.
Maybe the AF group should paint some KLM blue and fly them from Amsterdam. Why not try that.
Maybe the AF group should paint some KLM blue and fly them from Amsterdam. Why not try that.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter): replacing one failure with another isn't how an airline makes money. 777-300ERs? that would have probably been the right choice but that isn't the politically correct thing to do.......... |
How many times do we have to hear this uninformed innuendo from the other side of the Atlantic, presuming to know what manner of Soviet style intrigue drives French business decisions?
Can we please take some notes:
1. AF is a private company (yes, private).
2. AF seems already to have some how 'got away with' operating a few Boeings (apparently evading the watchful eye of the Politburo) : they were Boeing's LAUNCH customer for your suggested type, 77W (777-300ER), flying 70 777s, of which 43 are 77Ws
3. Only EK operate more 77Ws
4. Their A380 fleet is quite modest
There endlessly documented and discussed problems related to an inflexible cost structure and especially as regards workforce. Why would you assume the A380 type is the source of AF's problems?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting anfromme (Reply 21): you do realise AF has one of the biggest 777 fleets worldwide? 2/3 of their long-haul fleet consists of 777s. AF operate 70 of them, 43 of which are 773ERs. The only airlines that have more 777s are EK (146) and UA (74), and the only airlines that operate more 773ERs are EK (110) and CX (53). |
While remembering of course that they also LAUNCHED the 773ER, the most successful of all the 777s (and IINM, the most successful single widebody variant from Boeing).
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
As alluded to above, they could have pixies sprinkle fairy dust on the entire fleet, and it wouldn't make any material difference.
Signature. You just read one.
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- irishpower
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting Clydenairways (Reply 4): Anyway, people on anet put far too much emphasis on aircraft types. The most important thing for an airline to get right is an efficient company structure in place and maintain it, that's the hard part. Aircraft type and product are much easier to change. |
True to a degree but the one thing an airline can't control is fuel prices and this plays a huge roll in profitability.
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- kc135topboom
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): replacing one failure with another isn't how an airline makes money. |
Both LH and KE are very satisfied with the B-748s.
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- Viscount724
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- Qantas744er
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting ozglobal (Reply 23): 3. Only EK operate more 77Ws |
CX operate 53 -300ER's, making them the second largest -300ER operator after EK.
You live and you die, by the FMA
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
When the A380 was first proposed it was designed to be a better 744, a bit bigger, a bit more economical and a bit more range.
It was then targeted at any 744 operator as a replacement, if you make money with your older 744 you'll make more money with an A380.
This is basically true unless your 744 is stuffed to the gills with freight because we all know the A380 has les cargo space, and that freight pays handsomely.
I believe that in the unlikely event that AF had ordered the 748 instead they would still be in a similar situation, because they seem to manage the rest of the fleet rather well but not excellent.
So I see the problem is with management rather than which VLA they choose to operate.
Most of us would have liked to see the 748i being more popular than it has become and we should thank Airbus for not going with the A380F.
Further to this the 777 has evolved over time into a very capable 744 replacement, in many cases the preferred option, especially with the 77W but even more so with the 778 and 779. Its these aircraft that reduced the VLA market.
A surprisingly large number of aviation enthusiasts like to pour blame on the A380 on the woes of a few airlines that operate it, however the airlines themselves seem happy with them, after more than a decade of service we have still to see a single used A380 change hands And the 748i although much smaller numbers seems to be in the same boat.
Would they be losing less money today? Short answer NO. Looking solely at A380 ops, if these same ops were operated by the 748i (Assuming the same load is carried) the A380 costs less to operate than a 748i.
[Edited 2016-05-07 18:35:15]
[Edited 2016-05-07 18:43:25]
It was then targeted at any 744 operator as a replacement, if you make money with your older 744 you'll make more money with an A380.
This is basically true unless your 744 is stuffed to the gills with freight because we all know the A380 has les cargo space, and that freight pays handsomely.
I believe that in the unlikely event that AF had ordered the 748 instead they would still be in a similar situation, because they seem to manage the rest of the fleet rather well but not excellent.
So I see the problem is with management rather than which VLA they choose to operate.
Most of us would have liked to see the 748i being more popular than it has become and we should thank Airbus for not going with the A380F.
Further to this the 777 has evolved over time into a very capable 744 replacement, in many cases the preferred option, especially with the 77W but even more so with the 778 and 779. Its these aircraft that reduced the VLA market.
A surprisingly large number of aviation enthusiasts like to pour blame on the A380 on the woes of a few airlines that operate it, however the airlines themselves seem happy with them, after more than a decade of service we have still to see a single used A380 change hands And the 748i although much smaller numbers seems to be in the same boat.
Would they be losing less money today? Short answer NO. Looking solely at A380 ops, if these same ops were operated by the 748i (Assuming the same load is carried) the A380 costs less to operate than a 748i.
[Edited 2016-05-07 18:35:15]
[Edited 2016-05-07 18:43:25]
I so want to fly on SCAT one day!
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- deltal1011man
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting caoimhin (Reply 10): I read that comment as saying AF was more charitable to the A380 specifically than was warranted, not that AF had favoured Airbus over Boeing generally. |
Thank you.
didn't think it was rocket science but clearly I was wrong.
| Quoting anfromme (Reply 21): Right - you do realise AF has one of the biggest 777 fleets worldwide? 2/3 of their long-haul fleet consists of 777s. AF operate 70 of them, 43 of which are 773ERs. The only airlines that have more 777s are EK (146) and UA (74), and the only airlines that operate more 773ERs are EK (110) and CX (53). |
Cool story. Now if I can just find a point.........
| Quoting ozglobal (Reply 23): There endlessly documented and discussed problems related to an inflexible cost structure and especially as regards workforce. Why would you assume the A380 type is the source of AF's problems? |
Because JV partners management teams have specifically said so.
Why do you guys think Richard Anderson wasn't an A380 fan? I'll give you a hint, he saw the numbers of the airplane.
Oh and AF isn't remotely close to the only airline who can't make money with the airplane.
| Quoting kc135topboom (Reply 27): Both LH and KE are very satisfied with the B-748s. |
I question this.
We will see if they stay around once the 777X comes out (and IMO even the A350-1000)
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- OSL777FLYER
- Posts: 164
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): |
Very well put,
AF ordered the A380 because it is made in France. They also changed whatever they could to European manufacturers. They operate the B777-300's simply because it is the greatest twin-jet around.
As to AF's financial problems: It is a huge organization with too much management, contracts with crews are expensive, and union relations are poor. This happens to legacy carriers.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting kc135topboom (Reply 27): Both LH and KE are very satisfied with the B-748s. |
Even if that's true, it doesn't make that model any less of a spectacular failure.
Heck, AY loved the M11. DL loves the 764ER.
| Quoting OSL777FLYER (Reply 32): This happens to legacy carriers. |
And yet its betrothed southern belle is the exact opposite-- despite being quite a bit larger.
So one can't just blame that on "being a legacy carrier."
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
It's amazing how some people feel that a sub-fleet of aircraft is the root cause of the problems of a large airline of about 235 aircraft so it seems like around 4% of the fleet is the cause for their downfall. As others have said, there are far greater issues with the airline; looking for some big-ticket scapegoat is just distracting from the core problems. This is nothing more than another attempt at A380 bashing.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
Air France stated the A380's were not a good fit with their system. So I would have to say yes the should have done 748's. But even that will be overshadowed by the 779.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting OSL777FLYER (Reply 32): Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): Very well put, AF ordered the A380 because it is made in France. They also changed whatever they could to European manufacturers. They operate the B777-300's simply because it is the greatest twin-jet around. |
So let's try to follow this narrative: When it comes to Airbuses, AF buys them because their "French" (even though they are European, with parts made throughout the world). When it comes to Boeings, they buy them because they're the 'greatest' aircraft. I hope you can see there is no credibility in these combined statements.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting WALmsp (Reply 19): As I have not followed Air France that closely, could you elaborate on its internal problems a little? Is this a situation where they granted lots of concessions when times were good and now they can't afford them, or something else? |
AF have a very high cost in labour with either unnecessary staff or paying more for labour that work less than their competitors. The medium and short haul divisions have been hemorrhaging as well and Transavia France is not big enough to take on Ryanair and easyjet, and the pilots are blocking it's expansion .
Combining that with the substandard product that wasn't updated in years and upsetting their target market which are mostly premium flyers.
The big ME3 haven't been much help either, taking away a lot of their transfer traffic. The very negative media surrounding AF447 and the associated costs with the incident all have proved as a challenge.
The French economy has also been in the toilet as well as the labour laws which proved unfavourable. The list is almost never ending. The airline needs a strong leadership to unite it's employees and create a much better morale. It's a balancing act to try and cut as much without upsetting the unions.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting kc135topboom (Reply 27): Both LH and KE are very satisfied with the B-748s. |
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 31): I question this. |
Correct. LH won't say in a public statement, but they are not happy with their decision regarding the 748.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 31): Quoting anfromme (Reply 21): Right - you do realise AF has one of the biggest 777 fleets worldwide? 2/3 of their long-haul fleet consists of 777s. AF operate 70 of them, 43 of which are 773ERs. The only airlines that have more 777s are EK (146) and UA (74), and the only airlines that operate more 773ERs are EK (110) and CX (53). Cool story. Now if I can just find a point......... |
Let me help you with that:
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5): 777-300ERs? that would have probably been the right choice but that isn't the politically correct thing to do.......... |
That post of yours was what I was responding to.
Now - if you were already aware AF has tons of 777s and 773ERs in particular, I'm hard pressed to find a point in that post of yours.
| Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 31): Oh and AF isn't remotely close to the only airline who can't make money with the airplane. |
AF can't make money, full stop.
| Quoting tjcab (Reply 34): It's amazing how some people feel that a sub-fleet of aircraft is the root cause of the problems of a large airline of about 235 aircraft so it seems like around 4% of the fleet is the cause for their downfall. As others have said, there are far greater issues with the airline; looking for some big-ticket scapegoat is just distracting from the core problems. This is nothing more than another attempt at A380 bashing. |
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 15): Why didn't they order the 757? The 757 shares the same cockpit with the 762 and 763. Maybe back in 2000 they should have never ordered the A380 and waited 5 or 6 years then ordered new 744s to replace their old 744s. They could have gotten a discount on end of line 744s. |
The 767 has an odd place in the Air France history. They originally acquired the type via the UTA merger and UTA's charter subsidiary Aeromaritime who had originally ordered the aircraft, though many of them were delivered directly to AF. Air France then later placed a few orders of their own. So it's debatable if AF would have ever ordered the aircraft on their own as they had scores of Airbus frames on property that would do roughly the same mission. The 757 was never ordered for the same reason...AF had A300s and A310s on property when the 757 would have been ordered, and then A321s negated the need for an aircraft with the 757s performance in AF's network.
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- blacksoviet
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
Will we see any 747 orders after the 777-9X enters production?
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- OSL777FLYER
- Posts: 164
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting ozglobal (Reply 36): |
OK, try this then:
Governments of Europe has put pressure in the past for BA, LH and AF to purchase Airbus aircraft since these are made in Europe, with other European providers of parts as well, we can also add AZ and IB to this list.
However, with regards to the B777-300 ER there is no aircraft competitor that can offer the seating, cargo capacity and range that this aircraft can offer. Also, of course, AF does indeed want to keep a good relationship with Boeing based on past and on future purchases.
The purchase behavior of some European airlines today are similar to the " Buy British " policy of BA in the 60's and 70's when they only ordered aircraft from Boeing if no other option was available from British manufacturers.
This is what I was trying to explain.
Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting OSL777FLYER (Reply 43): The purchase behavior of some European airlines today are similar to the " Buy British " policy of BA in the 60's and 70's when they only ordered aircraft from Boeing if no other option was available from British manufacturers. |
BOAC and BEA (not BA) simultaneously sabotaged the development of said British aircraft such that they were useless to everyone, including them.
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Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting kc135topboom (Reply 27): Both LH and KE are very satisfied with the B-748s. |
I'm not entirely sure that's correct.
They've publicly said good things, but.............
Didn't LH decline an airframe, and were so satisfied, they didn't take another substitute replacement, even with the most favourable purchase terms?
Aren't Korean Air and Korean Air Cargo delaying deliveries, a prelude to i cancellation (those not yet under construction) and switch to another Boeing model?
RE: Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting kl838 (Reply 38): AF have a very high cost in labour with either unnecessary staff or paying more for labour that work less than their competitors. The medium and short haul divisions have been hemorrhaging as well and Transavia France is not big enough to take on Ryanair and easyjet, and the pilots are blocking it's expansion . Combining that with the substandard product that wasn't updated in years and upsetting their target market which are mostly premium flyers. The big ME3 haven't been much help either, taking away a lot of their transfer traffic. The very negative media surrounding AF447 and the associated costs with the incident all have proved as a challenge. The French economy has also been in the toilet as well as the labour laws which proved unfavourable. The list is almost never ending. The airline needs a strong leadership to unite it's employees and create a much better morale. It's a balancing act to try and cut as much without upsetting the unions. |
The French economy is far from "being in the toilet" or being close to it. You are reading too much crap from the BBC or other French-bashing newspaper. I do recognize also that the worst enemy of France are the French themselves who are constantly belittling their own country. That's being said, there is a culture of conflict in France, particularly in some large businesses. This culture has been really prominent in AF for several decades. This constant (and tiring) confrontational approach has been a management style for many AF CEO, and other CEOs in legacy airlines (look at LH or KE). De Juniac could have avoided this useless 2-week strike with some common sense and rhetoric skills.
This culture is quite oddly encouraged by the French government to please its electorate, whether they are right-wing or left-wing. Hopefully the new CEO has the necessary skills to move AF forward with an innovative vision and unite its employees, as you mentioned, to face the increased pressure from IAG and the ME3 + TK.
RE: Should AF Have Purchased 748s Instead Of A388s?
| Quoting OSL777FLYER (Reply 43): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 36): OK, try this then: Governments of Europe has put pressure in the past for BA, LH and AF to purchase Airbus aircraft since these are made in Europe, with other European providers of parts as well, we can also add AZ and IB to this list. However, with regards to the B777-300 ER there is no aircraft competitor that can offer the seating, cargo capacity and range that this aircraft can offer. Also, of course, AF does indeed want to keep a good relationship with Boeing based on past and on future purchases. The purchase behavior of some European airlines today are similar to the " Buy British " policy of BA in the 60's and 70's when they only ordered aircraft from Boeing if no other option was available from British manufacturers. This is what I was trying to explain. |
I understand what you are saying and it is just a caricature, is based on information you don't have (inside knowledge of boardroom discussions) and is at odds with the facts: AF long haul fleet is overwhelmingly B77W.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
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