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panamair
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AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 1:56 pm

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned but it was reported at the end of April that both Air France and Singapore Airlines are in partnership talks (sorry link is in French only):

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...vec-singapore-airlines-567143.html

The two are apparently looking for deeper ties but Star Alliance's strict rules about members working with airlines outside the alliance are a potential obstacle. SQ has apparently asked for a waiver from *A to engage in talks with AF.

CAPA has picked up on it as well (but that article is subscription-only):

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...rline-penetration-in-france-279883
 
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mercure1
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:02 pm

Yes was discussed before in one of recent AF threads. Juniac the outgoing CEO confirmed that AF has long been in search of a Asia partner where its has network weakness and most recent talks have been with Singapore.
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Polot
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:04 pm

Doesn't SQ have a JV with LH?
 
panamair
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:08 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
Yes was discussed before in one of recent AF threads.

Ah, sorry, I did look through a few recent AF threads but didn't see it...

Quoting Polot (Reply 2):
Doesn't SQ have a JV with LH?

Yes, I believe it's with both LH and LX.
 
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mercure1
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:17 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 2):
Doesn't SQ have a JV with LH?

Yes, but from news sources it appears this discussions are more focused on narrow number of city pairs specifically CDG-SIN and a few connections on each end.

Likely similar to existing SQ deal with TK for SIN-IST sector for some beneficial connections on each end.

As last earnings reveal AF suffered in Asia, forcing restructuring and capacity reduction to region.
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:20 pm

They have KE, CA, GA & VN to cover the Asian region. Why not work with their own partners instead of poaching other alliance's members?
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LHRFlyer
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:40 pm

I wonder if this could presage a similar move with IAG given the relatively limited cooperation between BA and CX.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:54 pm

Hey, why compete when you can 'cooperate' and drive up fares? AF and SQ are the only carriers non-stop CDG-SIN. (Maybe another carrier is seasonal or less than daily.)
 
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mercure1
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 2:59 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 5):
They have KE, CA, GA & VN to cover the Asian region. Why not work with their own partners instead of poaching other alliance's members?

KE is in North Asia and AF already have codesharing relations which were expanded in 2015.

CA is in Star, but AF has a JV with CZ and MU for China flights.

GA and CI are not very useful due lack of any flight link to CDG and their small scale while VN has long had AF relations.
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C010T3
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 3:03 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):

Yes was discussed before in one of recent AF threads. Juniac the outgoing CEO confirmed that AF has long been in search of a Asia partner where its has network weakness and most recent talks have been with Singapore.

More Asian partners than what Skyteam already has?
 
sealand
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 3:15 pm

AF is looking more into SQ's coverage of Australia and New Zealand while SQ is looking at AF's strength in French cities. Both knows that a deal has more pros than cons.

Ever since QF allied with EK, AF essentially lost a lot of Aus/NZ traffic. AF's partnership with EY on Aus/NZ has not been particularly successful and they're always on a lookout for a partner with better coverage to Aus.

For SQ, their proposition to Star Alliance or more specifically, LH, is this proposed partnership will not be too detrimental to them, since LH or European Star Alliance members don't fly to Aus/NZ while SQ is looking at better feed to French cities.
 
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Coal
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Sun May 08, 2016 11:50 pm

Finally able to comment on this. Was going to post that link from La Tribune but I was still on my 6 week ban.

I get the impression AF has more to gain from this than SQ. At the pointy end of the plane, I doubt SQ and AF are facing too much competition from the ME3 on SIN - CDG, although on Aust/NZ - CDG I am sure they do feel the pressure from the ME3. However, in the back of the plane, I feel AF has more to gain, particularly with SQ's SE Asia destinations, which are all very popular with French tourists. I'm not sure how much SQ gains from AF's European network that is not already covered by the LH Group.

Coincidentally, there were a few French pax on QF 5 (SYD - SIN) on Saturday evening who were connecting onwards (though the cabin announcements only mentioned the gates for BA 15 and AY 82).
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
Planesmart
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 4:13 am

Makes good sense. Defers the need to make some very hard decisions.

Major EU / Asia airlines are all looking for EK/QF style strategic alliances, a win for win for both the big and bit player.

Wind the clock forward a decade, and there will probably be only 4-5 global alliances, each headed by a single dominant airline (only loosely based on 1-2 of the existing alliance groups), with likely only the USA and China outside.
 
SexyAdonis
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 10:51 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 8):
KE is in North Asia and AF already have codesharing relations which were expanded in 2015.

CA is in Star, but AF has a JV with CZ and MU for China flights.

GA and CI are not very useful due lack of any flight link to CDG and their small scale while VN has long had AF relations.

There is also the service dimension. As the article correctly points out, the AF CEO considers SQ to be top class in terms of service. The airlines Air France is partnered in SkyTeam (except Delta and Korean Air) are all "basket cases" and airlines with sub-par products.

Air France is focusing a lot on improving its service offering.The new La Premiere and Business cabins and all the soft product enhancements around it are more in par with SQ's offering as opposed to the likes of China Eastern, China Southern, and Vietnam Airlines.

Sexy Adonis
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 11:56 am

well since SQ is in Star Alliance program and AF is in the Skyteam Alliance, if they are going to do anything they are both going to be very limited. Normally airlines don't code-shares when they fly the same routes. So if they are going to do something like SIN CDG as suggested. Since SQ is a far superior airlines than AF. It will hurt AF because everybody will want to fly on SQ instead of AF. They will loose revenue over time as people switch to SQ. AF would have to completely pull out of that market.and only offer code-sharing with SQ. Why would they do that? when they been flying that route for decades and have built up a presence? You Code-share to build up a presence, so you can fly that route eventually on your own. i'm not seeing at all how this will help AF long term. They must be negotiating something else.
 
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HALtheAI
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 1:04 pm

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
CAPA has picked up on it as well (but that article is subscription-only):

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...79883

Could someone with CAPA access quote anything they have to say about France's bilaterals with the UAE and Qatar? I noticed a subheading in the article, "Gulf airlines are pitifully small in France", and I'm just wondering how restrictive the air service agreements are.
 
col
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 14):
Since SQ is a far superior airlines than AF. It will hurt AF because everybody will want to fly on SQ instead of AF. They will loose revenue over time as people switch to SQ. AF would have to completely pull out of that market.and only offer code-sharing with SQ.

About the best case scenario if I ever heard one. Sadly AF and their crap 7's will still be around. Luckily we got them out of KUL, sadly we lost LH and their 340's too!
 
EddieDude
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 3:18 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 11):
I was still on my 6 week ban

Why were you banned?

Quoting SexyAdonis (Reply 13):
The airlines Air France is partnered in SkyTeam (except Delta and Korean Air) are all "basket cases" and airlines with sub-par products.

I think that is an unfair blanket statement. GA has a fantastic J-class soft and hard product on the 77W that many top carriers from other alliances or unaligned could only dream of. KL is also a fantastic carrier; I have been lucky enough to fly with them in J both long- and short-haul lately and they are brilliant! The KL crews are awesome. By the same token, CI, MU and CZ have been introducing great new premium cabins and have continued to modernize their fleets. I can also tell you how much AM has recently improved. I fly a lot on AM, short and long-haul, in Y and J, and they are consistently improving... the DL hand can be seen in AM. That bias of yours is not conducive to an objective discussion.
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loalq
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 11):
At the pointy end of the plane, I doubt SQ and AF are facing too much competition from the ME3 on SIN - CDG

I guess they are. It is usually MUCH cheaper to fly from SIN to Europe via the ME with QR, EK and EY than it is to fly directly, and you can find some flights with very short connections.
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VCEflyboy
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 4:23 pm

Is this for AF to expand in Indonesia? It's no secret AFKL has not been doing well but the traffic is there.
Definitely SQ has the highest reputation in Indonesia and if there's an airline that can cater to premium traffic in Indonesia that's SQ.
 
alfa164
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting SexyAdonis (Reply 13):
The airlines Air France is partnered in SkyTeam (except Delta and Korean Air) are all "basket cases" and airlines with sub-par products.

I think that is a conclusion not based on the evidence. In Europe, I would hold KL as an example of an excellent airline; in Asia, both GA and VN have brought their products so far up (GA has made no secret of trying to reach SQ-type service) you would be hard pressed to find any deficiencies in their product.

I have no complaints about the times I have spent on OK or AM lately.... we could go down the list, but I think it is fair to say all alliances have their strong players, and all have some weaker players. The one thing I see is that ST seems to be working hard to bring all their players up in service.
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thekorean
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 8):

What about VN? Although for places like BKK and SIN there would have to be a bit of backtracking.
 
alfa164
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 4:55 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 21):
What about VN? Although for places like BKK and SIN there would have to be a bit of backtracking.

AF was codesharing with Bangkok Airways out of BKK; unless they plan to quit flying there, PG is a pretty good option within SE Asia.

It appears they are looking more for onward connections to Oceania...
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VCEflyboy
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RE: AF And SQ In Partnership Talks

Mon May 09, 2016 5:05 pm

Alfa, not to say KL is a bad airline, but the reason of its success is mainly that LH is so expansive and AMS naturally ideal location made it a great hub for Germany and most of Europe really.

To me, too, sky team is the "basket case" airlines ' alliance like sexyadonis put it. All of the airlines are or were seriously dysfunctional at some point. Some came a notch higher with time, like KE. Some may offer great product, like China airlines, but still compared to their competitors in their respective regions are 2nd class.

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