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xiaotung
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 12:41 am

NZ sent many New Zealand based managers to Shanghai to manage their China business and failed. They also made the mistake by opening PEK for the Olympics and diluted their then 5 weekly PVG service. It was not until the last couple of years when they hired long time former DL China expat manager who knows the market and how to build relationships. Their strategy apparently changed from chasing tour groups to the independent middle class travellers. China's income per capita is not relevant as China has a huge income gap between the rich and the poor and it also varies hugely between cities. NZ only need the top 3%, 5% and 10%.

So apparently experience is very important in that part of the world. Coming from a very traditional aviation background, John Borghetti thinks VA's JV with SQ is the answer to China and believes their only long haul future is North America. Between Luxon and Borghethi, I would rather trust Luxon who has years of overseas experience and Unilever has a huge operation in China.

China will have 200 million outbound tourists by 2020, doubling 2013 figure. Their spending is expected to triple. Giving up China would be utterly irresponsible.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 1:14 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 100):
It was not until the last couple of years when they hired long time former DL China expat manager who knows the market and how to build relationships.

Isn't this the truth, people sell to people , Relationships are what makes things happen. I took me many years selling to small lumber yards to realise this truth.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 1:50 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 100):
Giving up China would be utterly irresponsible.

Exactly right - irresponsible, if they gave up now they would never get slots back. There is no doubt that they saw the hard data there from the outset, but they were struggling to tap it,and they learned a few hard facts about China (as most airlines who have started in China have learned too)

Of course one should not underestimate the CA JV which lends NZ credibility/recognition and major feed to the Chinese market
 
aerokiwi
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 2:44 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 98):
Whimsical Analysis.
I note he has toned it down a tad with the Nouflyer handle...

I don't think it's particularly helpful to refer to a poster as if they're not currently in the room, so to speak.

But Nouflyer's analysis of the past is correct - China has been a financial black hole for a helluva lot longer than most of us thought (PS. Does anyone else feel really old now that China has the Shanghai route is ten years old?). With all the apparent need to disclose to shareholders the state of play, I wonder why this hasn't popped up earlier. Or did we just miss it?

I don't agree that Shanghai should now be dropped, if indeed it is profitable - sunk costs and all that. But Nouflyer's points are salient that shouldn't be dismissed - ten years of losses on a monopoly route. Remarkable. How many others would survive that long? Why not just leave it to the Chinese carriers and codeshare? Could high-value assets like the 787 be used elsewhere?

We're in danger of becoming cheerleaders of Luxon and "defenders of the faith" (aka NZ) on here - akin to the QF/Joyce love-in on the Australian threads - which does no one any good.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 2:56 am

Anyone know AIAL's master plan of when more Code F gates will be built? I mean if SQ go 380 in Summer again with the KE74H, plus 3 EK 380s, it will only take 1 more (China SOuthern, Air China or something) to really make it interesting,was a bad enough look bussing the 380 a few weeks ago on a 'temporary' basis
 
ZKOJH
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 3:35 am

"Luxon - bring on the competition"

Air New Zealand chief executive Christopher Luxon says the flood of rival airlines coming in to the country was good news for his business.

While he expected the state of the market to be "choppy" over the next 12 to 18 months, Air New Zealand with 40 per cent of inbound international business was benefiting from the surge in tourists, in spite of increased competition.

And once the visitors are here, Air New Zealand's growing domestic operation was the main airline beneficiary.

"Whenever a competitor airline brings visitors into New Zealand that's a good thing for Air New Zealand because we then pick up those passengers and disperse them throughout country," he said on the sidelines of Trenz, the tourist industry showcase held last week in Rotorua.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11639565

and what happened to Chengdu? it has gone very quite lol.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 3:47 am

Luxon seems good at talking things up, but there are still significant headwinds ahead for it.

That open tap he thinks will continue to flow into its domestic network is all well and good, but there may well be a time that those benefits are greatly reduced.

It is currently trying to build market presence but at the same time many of its strong feeder markets are being switched off bit by bit.

Australia - North America
They really only hold an advantage on MEL routes, given that it only has access via SYD or BNE to anywhere but LAX in North America.

New Zealand - Asia
Significant capacity increases either currently in place or on their way by both NZ and other players. May have some upside but it also creates significant challenges to yields in the process.

New Zealand - Europe
EK and QR either currently have in place or are soon to offer a big threat to NZ's market position in this market

Australia/ New Zealand - South America
As a longer term play it may pay off, but will it be as patient as it has with PVG for instance. The South American market is not in a strong position right now, so it may take a while to pay off.
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 3:47 am

I do agree with xiaotung that things started to improve when Air NZ ditched the Ryanair-style group tour low-roller market.

But for all the playing of the man (or men), none of the people leaping to condemn my questions have actually answered the questions.

If the benefit is inbound tourism to New Zealand, why not just leave the route to China Southern?

China's boom is over, as every miner in Western Australia and Queensland knows. Finished. Caput.

So persisting with a failed route in those conditions, after losing the monopoly, is simply a refusal to acknowledge reality: that the long game failed.

It's time to stop flogging the long-dead Chinese horse. It was brave to try something that no other western airline has tried - basing a long-haul China route on inbound tourism.

It was brave, it failed, and it's time to get out and move on.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 3:49 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 103):
We're in danger of becoming cheerleaders of Luxon and "defenders of the faith" (aka NZ) on here - akin to the QF/Joyce love-in on the Australian threads - which does no one any good.


I don't see that there's any good to be done by constantly finding fault, either, which is easy enough to do in a volatile industry.

There was no Qantas/AJ love-in three or four years ago. I felt quite lonely - LOL - and was often attacked for my support of him, especially at the time of the grounding.

Borghetti, at Virgin Australia, was the favoured CEO in those days and for some long time afterwards.

PVG is for me what it has always been - a massive and potentially lucrative market. Several US airlines had trouble, at least in the early days, with PVG - and China generally - but it is a hard market to ignore, and they didn't. With China anticipated to overtake Australia as NZ's primary source of visitors, I think it would be perverse for Air NZ to ignore it.

With any troublesome route you either drop it or you fix it and it seems Air NZ has fixed PVG. Whether it stays fixed is still a question, but they must have confidence in the fix with the increase in frequency.

mariner
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 4:07 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 108):
With China anticipated to overtake Australia as NZ's primary source of visitors, I think it would be perverse for Air NZ to ignore it.

Why?

Qantas use Jetstar for similar markets. Just because there is volume doesn't mean you stick your full service carrier on a low-yield long-haul route.

I would tolerate Shanghai as a Freedom Air route. But long-haul full-service for a leisure route is nuts - which is why there isn't an AKL-LAS service.

The "danger" of losing Shanghai slots reminded me of The Inbetweeners, where Simon fears that getting a new girlfriend might put off the object of his unrequited affections. "You mean Carli might still not go out with you?" replies his mate Jay.

This is just the same. The "risk" of exit is losing the licence to make another decade of losses!

That might just be a good thing for an airline which has spent a decade trying its utmost to conceal those chronic Shanghai losses from their shareholders, only for the cat to be let out of the bag in an unscripted aside. They obviously haven't got the courage to just admit the mistake and leave the market to China Southern.

[Edited 2016-05-15 21:10:40]
 
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zkojq
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 4:26 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 91):
it has now been admitted that the route operated at a loss for the first ten years
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 93):
Has anybody done the maths? Did one year "no longer loss-making" offset the losses of ten consecutive years of red ink?

This 'ten years of losses' theme keeps getting thrown around, but does anyone actually have a source for it?

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 103):
I don't think it's particularly helpful to refer to a poster as if they're not currently in the room, so to speak.

Agreed. Many of us disagree with Nouflyer, but there's no need to be petty about it.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 107):
It was brave, it failed, and it's time to get out and move on.

Assuming that it's profitable now, why would you pull out?
 
zkncj
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 4:38 am

ZK-NCK is currently sitting outside the Hanga in AKL minus the Koru.
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 4:41 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 110):
This 'ten years of losses' theme keeps getting thrown around, but does anyone actually have a source for it?

Mariner gave us the source in Reply 10. Out of the mouth of Air NZ's Shanghai-based manager!

Shanghai used to have potential as a monopoly route serving a booming market.

But both the boom and the monopoly are finished. So any remaining unachieved potential that the route might have almost certainly involves tying up several airframes for a paltry return.

[Edited 2016-05-15 21:44:38]
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 4:49 am

On a different note, did anyone else get a tinge of Coral Route nostalgia at the news that the Cooks Chamber of Commerce wants to upgrade Aitutaki Airport to take A320 and 737 aircraft?
 
xiaotung
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 4:50 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 107):
If the benefit is inbound tourism to New Zealand, why not just leave the route to China Southern?

No one has answered my question either. We came to the conclusion from the one article that NZ has made a loss in the first ten years but we have never heard how much they have lost to make a call whether it was worth it or not. Maybe the loss was only marginal?

China Southern has it's hub in CAN not PVG. When NZ started PVG, it happened to be an airport where it's home carrier (China Eastern) was weak, even worse in long haul. It did not have a good long haul network. It's planes were old and products outdated, service considered one of the worst. You cannot find another 20 plus million people city with a poorer home airline. NZ and dozens of other foreign carriers took advantage of that. Now, after many years of building its brand and with the help of Tourism NZ and Immigration NZ, NZ now enjoy a premium brand recognition in the China market on the same level of SQ. When I took my first NZ flight on a 767 via HKG, no one had heard anything about NZ. And now they are able to sell New Zealand as a premium destination and NZ as a premium airline which is something China Eastern would never be able to do.

I often admire how Kiwis can have such a good coordinated business effort between different organisations with a very clear goal and "hunt as a pack". There is a misconception going on that the China boom is over. The outbound tourism is not slowing. Only the growth rate that is slowing. If growth rate in the last few years reached as high as 17%, it was bound to come down. The current growth rate of 9% is still pretty good. If NZ pulled out, that would be how many tax payer dollars wasted and a brand recognition they took so many years to build.
 
zkncj
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 5:22 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 114):
When I took my first NZ flight on a 767 via HKG, no one had heard anything about NZ. And now they are able to sell New Zealand as a premium destination and NZ as a premium airline which is something China Eastern would never be able to do.

Agreed after transiting though PVG this year, it was incredible to see how much knowledge the airport staff had about New Zealand.
 
aerojoe
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 5:22 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 114):
There is a misconception going on that the China boom is over. The outbound tourism is not slowing. Only the growth rate that is slowing. If growth rate in the last few years reached as high as 17%, it was bound to come down. The current growth rate of 9% is still pretty good

Totally agree. Those that use demand and price of iron ore as a proxy for the health of the Chinese economy completely miss the point. China has taken a conscious decision (articulated in the 5 year plan) to move from infrastructure led growth (read lots of hard commodities like iron ore and coal) to consumption led growth (read increase in service based trade such as tourism). Most economists would say a shift to more sustainable long-term growth. The simple reality is that a China economy growing at 6% today is still a larger economy growing in real terms by a greater amount than the China economy of ten years ago growing at 12+%.

This debate about whether Air NZ made the right decision persisting with PVG is starting to lose any sense of objectivity it may originally have had. No one on this site is able to quantify the loses sustained over the last 10 years (they could be smaller than a rounding error or they could be numbers that could make our eyes water). Simple reality is those figures are commercially sensitive and confidential. What we do know is that the route is now profitable. When combined with China tourism continuing to expand and the increasing share of higher value FIT travelers where would the advantage lie in existing the route? Where would the proponents of exit suggest that the resources freed from exit be better directed to achieve a better return on investment for the shareholders?
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 5:37 am

But if the argument is that Air NZ is now targeting wealthier Chinese people, how can it be argued that that is more sustainable than Nagoya and Fukuoka and Singapore and Taipei, which were closed by the airline when they were already vastly more developed markets with a huge middle class?

And incidentally, posts about the transit process at Singapore further reinforce the picture of a route on life support, with low-yielding through traffic to Europe funnelled onto a failing flight to ensure that AKL-LAX and LAX-LHR can be sold as separate sectors.

Grim reading however you look at it
 
xiaotung
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 5:56 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 117):
But if the argument is that Air NZ is now targeting wealthier Chinese people, how can it be argued that that is more sustainable than Nagoya and Fukuoka and Singapore and Taipei, which were closed by the airline when they were already vastly more developed markets with a huge middle class?

You are comparing a mega city with at least 10 times the population to the likes of Nagoya, Fukuoka and Taipei. This does not even include the neighboring provinces like Jiangsu and Zhejiang whose residents travel to PVG by road or train. Shanghai is a huge market that you will never see QF send JetStar or SQ send Scoot to.
 
aerojoe
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 6:02 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 117):

I'm still unclear as to the argument that supports existing a now profitable route. What are your proposed alternatives that will provide an equal or greater return on investment from day 1 - if you're exiting a profitable route then the new route will need to be profitable immediately.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 6:13 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 109):
Why?

Because it's making money. And because it scratches my itch.  
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 109):
The "risk" of exit is losing the licence to make another decade of losses!

If it's making money I don't know why there would be another decade of losses.

mariner
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 6:40 am

The China experiment has been a painful ride for NZ and many oher airlines over the years who rushed to secure their slice of the market, but as it matures it should bring rewards.

It will be up to NZ to build upon that investment over time to hopefully start to build momentum, but added pressure will continue to be there too as new capacity from competing carriers is added.

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 118):
Shanghai is a huge market that you will never see QF send JetStar or SQ send Scoot to.

Never say never but I get the premise  
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 6:48 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 118):
Shanghai is a huge market that you will never see QF send JetStar or SQ send Scoot to

Yet Qantas does deploy Jetstar on its outbound leisure routes from Japan.
 
Nouflyer
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Mon May 16, 2016 6:54 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 121):

The China experiment has been a painful ride for NZ and many oher airlines over the years who rushed to secure their slice of the market, but as it matures it should bring rewards.

Really well put.

Air New Zealand's challenge is that it has none of the outbound corporate demand that other western carriers balance inbound leisure demand with.

It has always been a unique and gutsy business model. And it's a shame that we now see that the airline has buried a decade of losses not just from public view but also from its shareholders.

But not as big a challenge as the loss of the monopoly and the end of the Chinese boom. Those two developments challenge the business model even more.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Tue May 17, 2016 8:44 pm

NZ will receive three 789's this year, 2 next year and one the year after for a total of 12. What options do they hold beyond that , is it four? Just as important are these at the price negotiated when the original order was placed? My understanding is the price was very favorable although they probably paid somewhat more for the 789's than the contract price for the 788's. Does anyone have any updates?
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Tue May 17, 2016 9:19 pm

For a tiny airport with no scheduled service at a tiny town, Wanaka - WKA - sure gets a lot of media attention these days:

Partly it has to do with the launch of the NASA weather balloon, and NASA's hopes for a permanent base at WKA:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8008...ASA-plans-permanent-base-in-Wanaka

"NASA plans permanent base in Wanaka"

But there's more to it. Wanaka is "just over the hill" from ZQN (50 k) and the airport is planning to be a GA base (for the Queenstown area?) and hopes for return of scheduled service. To this end, they are planning some expansion - with a very long time line:

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/queenstown...81130/major-changes-mooted-airport

"Major changes mooted for airport

More land, more runway, more hangars, more passengers, bigger fees and a change of ownership are in the wind for Wanaka Airport.

The report said the airport already had 12 ‘‘firm requests'' for new hangars accommodating 23 aircraft and covering 22,800sq m.

One request was from Nasa, requiring a building of at least 2500sq m to for its high-pressure balloon-launching facility."


The report also discusses the concept of WKA being a reliever airport for ZQN, at least for GA, but also mentions another possibility:

"It believed there were cost advantages for 50-seat aircraft such as Air New Zealand's Bombardier Q300 to use Wanaka over Queenstown."

I guess they'd need a longer runway for that, and and certainly a bigger terminal, but those are mentioned in the report. I'm a bit surprised that WKA has no commercial service since Air NZ pulled out. It's a tourist area in it's own right - although not with the pull of Queenstown, obviously:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment...sations-Festival-line-up-in-Wanaka

"Bill English, Paul Kelly join Aspiring Conversations Festival line up in Wanaka"

So I wonder if it's a tiny town that tiny Sounds Air might consider - they seem to be making a go of tiny Westport, still operating after a year of Sounds service.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destin...ington-to-westport-with-sounds-air

"Flight Test: Wellington to Westport with Sounds Air

THE VERDICT: Sounds Air is an absolute beaut. People pay thousands for scenic helicopter rides and the like, but I'm telling you, this is the next best thing. As we land in Westport, waves crashing on the side of the runway, I feel as though I've already been on some sort of great adventure."


 

mariner
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Tue May 17, 2016 9:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
I guess they'd need a longer runway for that, and and certainly a bigger terminal, but those are mentioned in the report.

I'd imagine Runway would be fine, I mean the Q and ATR go in during the summer for the air show with PAX on charter flights so although weight restricted, 1200 meters or so should be ok I'd imagine (NO numbers with me though)

As for terminal, who knows, I mean PPQ isn't that big a terminal nor KKE or TUO...
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Tue May 17, 2016 9:49 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
So I wonder if it's a tiny town that tiny Sounds Air might consider - they seem to be making a go of tiny Westport, still operating after a year of Sounds service.

Is WKA a bit off their beaten track? I assume WKA-CHC would be a popular city pairing . But does this mean deadheading to CHC from say BHM.?
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Tue May 17, 2016 9:55 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 127):
Is WKA a bit off their beaten track?

Yes, its off their beaten track a bit, but they seem to be building up at WLG, so maybe that would be the go. I suppose I think of Sounds because the Pilatus might be the right size aircraft for WKA, at this stage of the game.

In line with the attention from the media, the Age in Melbourne has a good article about Wanaka:

http://www.traveller.com.au/travelle...-20-reasons-to-visit-wanaka-go8ol2

"Wanaka, New Zealand travel tips and things to do: 20 highlights"

mariner
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 12:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 128):
Quoting mariner (Reply 128):
but they seem to be building up at WLG, so maybe that would be the go

would WLG-CHC-WKA and VV make any sense?
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 1:12 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 129):
would WLG-CHC-WKA and VV make any sense?

It would to me, but they are a bit wary of direct head-butts with Air NZ, at least on certain routes:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/7778...fall-on-old-air-new-zealand-routes

"Sounds Air had no ambition to challenge Air New Zealand as an operator on main trunk routes, he said. "The fact is, we're a second-tier airline. We know our place in the world."

They do compete - NSN/BHE-WLG, for example - but I don't know how far they'd push it.

mariner
 
Sylus
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):

For a tiny airport with no scheduled service at a tiny town, Wanaka - WKA - sure gets a lot of media attention these days:

I live in Wanaka virtually half the year and I can say, Wanaka is no longer a tiny town. I remember 15 years ago my family holiday home was at the end of what was essentially a quiet rural gravel road. Now days new homes are popping up at what feels like a weekly rate, there's no gravel roads in sight and even a neighborhood pub,store and bottle store have started.

In the next couple of years a massive development project is being initiated in Wanaka. It includes a second supermarket, new pool and brand stores (possibly Warehouse,Noel Leeming etc). That second supermarket is long overdue. I worked at the current one over summer and at times you couldn't move it was that congested. While perhaps Wanaka is relatively seasonal, when it does get busy, it gets busy (to the point where the cell towers can't cope!).

I used the old CHC-WKA service relatively frequently, and admittedly it wasn't often full. It's been a decent few years since it was canned and within that time there has been massive growth. In next the next couple of years with all the new development, I can see CHC-WKA returning, probably with a Q. It could even take some pressure off ZQN at peak summer and winter periods.

Sylus

[Edited 2016-05-17 19:36:39]
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 3:32 am

Quoting Sylus (Reply 131):
I can see CHC-WKA returning, probably with a Q. It could even take some pressure off ZQN at peak summer and winter periods

Only thing is and this seems like the only issue, would there be enough Q's in the near future
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 3:37 am

Quoting Sylus (Reply 131):
I live in Wanaka virtually half the year and I can say, Wanaka is no longer a tiny town. I remember 15 years ago my family holiday home was at the end of what was essentially a quiet rural gravel road. Now days new homes are popping up at what feels like a weekly rate, there's no gravel roads in sight and even a neighborhood pub,store and bottle store have started.

Good to hear. There had to be reasons why it is getting such media attention recently an growth helps.

mariner

[Edited 2016-05-17 20:47:53]
 
nascarnut
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 4:32 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 129):
would WLG-CHC-WKA and VV make any sense?

Or WLG-WSZ-CHC-WKA VV. Tap in CHC-WSZ and CHC-WKA and see if there is any sort of demand.
 
Sylus
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 4:53 am

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 134):
Or WLG-WSZ-CHC-WKA VV. Tap in CHC-WSZ and CHC-WKA and see if there is any sort of demand.

Didn't NZ try or plan WSZ-CHC a few years ago with 1900D's? Seem to recall this... If so then a 9 seater Pilatus could potentially work if timed correctly.
 
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77west
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 6:24 am

WKA runway could easily be extended to 1700m without taking out any roads or fences. That would be enough to remove any restrictions on all but the longest flights.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 7:31 am

I'd like to see AKL-WLG-WKA-CHC with Q300.
 
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NZ107
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 7:48 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):

I think it's time WKA got a service. It also makes me wonder if JQ would want to start services there with their Dash 8s once they expand south as chances are it won't be affected by weather as much as ZQN is with their non-RNP planes.
 
zkeye
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 8:26 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 138):



I think it's time WKA got a service

It would be nice (especially for me as I often travel to Wanaka for work from Christchurch) but there is a reason Air New Zealand cancelled the service. Hotel operators have been trying for some time to get other airlines to serve Wanaka but none have been able to make a viable case for it. They may hit critical mass but it will not be for a while yet I am afraid.

[Edited 2016-05-18 01:27:58]
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 8:27 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 137):

Me too that would be cool as
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 10:47 am

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 134):
Or WLG-WSZ-CHC-WKA VV.

Good idea - it avoids any head-butt with Air NZ.

Also interesting (to me) is that - so far - every Sounds route crosses Cook Strait, which they see as their niche. I wonder if they will ever start flying to CHC - from Westport, perhaps, or even Greymouth (which they've previously talked about serving) or - anywhere.

mariner
 
DavidByrne
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 12:25 pm

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 134):
Or WLG-WSZ-CHC-WKA VV. Tap in CHC-WSZ and CHC-WKA and see if there is any sort of demand.

C'mon, realistically WLG-WSZ is not going to reappear on the network with a Q300, and especially there won't be a WSZ-CHC service, given how short a time NZ's limited service with B1900s lasted.

The realistic mid-long term prospect is that . . . eventually . . . WKA will develop sufficiently to justify a daily Q300 service from CHC. Given that NZ relatively recently pulled out of its previous attempt at serving the town, I can't see this in the short term. Maybe sooner, though, if WKA develops more as a destination in its own right, rather than being an add-on to a ZQN visit.
 
A330NZ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 1:12 pm

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 134):
Or WLG-WSZ-CHC-WKA VV. Tap in CHC-WSZ and CHC-WKA and see if there is any sort of demand.
Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 142):
C'mon, realistically WLG-WSZ is not going to reappear on the network with a Q300, and especially there won't be a WSZ-CHC service, given how short a time NZ's limited service with B1900s lasted.

I have a feeling nascarnut was referring to the possibility of the routing using Sounds Air's Pilatus aircraft

In which case - I think that would be fantastic, and it may just work (if the timings are good). There must have been some business case for NZ to previously operate CHC-WKA and CHC-WSZ services, and that business case more than likely still exists. The 1900D was just too much aircraft, and the PC-12 would be more suited to the number of seats required.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 1:41 pm

how many seats in a Sounds Air PC-12? Nine? I assume its CASK is similar to the Caravan which would allow for smaller loads at a similar cost per km. How do the cruise speeds compare?
 
PA515
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 3:19 pm

ZK-MVL is on delivery as SXI1616 and is presently NAG-PEN over the Bay of Bengal, and out of flightradar24 range for a couple of hours.

ZK-OKE is returning from the FTW repaint as the 19 May NZ29 IAH-AKL. ZK-OKA is the 19 May NZ28 AKL-IAH, so that would be a second FTW repaint.

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 143):
There must have been some business case for NZ to previously operate CHC-WKA and CHC-WSZ services, and that business case more than likely still exists.

The CHC-WKA 1900D was impacted by pax choosing to travel through ZQN for lower fares on A320 and ATR flights.

CHC-WSZ had a significant Solid Energy Head Office staff commitment, but soon after it commenced the price of coal dropped, Solid Energy went into receivership, and the coal mining has been scaled right back.

PA515
 
PA515
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 4:21 pm

Confirmation of the AKL-RAR-LAX, LAX-RAR-AKL 77E schedule eff. 03 Dec 2016. The day of operation ex AKL changes from Sunday to Saturday eff. 05 Nov 2016.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...16-cook-islands-us-service-changes

And as posted in the following link by 'zkncj' in the thread 'NZ Upgauges And Increases EZE Service', AKL-RAR-SYD, SYD-RAR-AKL changes from Saturday to Friday ex AKL eff. 04 Nov 2016.

http://cookislandsnews.com/national/...gger-jet-boost-for-tourist-markets

PA515
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 9:27 pm

We don't talk much about the small fry here - there isn't a lot to talk about, I guess - but the cuts and changes made by Air NZ to smaller airports, can be seen as positive for some - TUO, e.g.:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times...cklanders-loving-cheap-Taupo-fares

"Aucklanders loving cheap Taupo fares

Larger planes and lower prices on flights between Auckland and Taupo has given a big boost to the tourism trade."


I can't find much about the Sounds service WLG-TUO, but it is referred to, anecdotally, in another article as a "success" - and anything I've read about Sounds WLG-WSZ is positive.

Similarly, AKL-WHK is still bookable on Air Chathams website so I guess that's going okay, but I can't find much about it, with the website Third Level aviation being a good source:

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.co.nz/2016/01/air-chathams-30-years-on.html

mariner

[Edited 2016-05-18 14:27:51]
 
Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Wed May 18, 2016 11:10 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 103):
We're in danger of becoming cheerleaders of Luxon and "defenders of the faith" (aka NZ) on here

Horse/bolted, from where I'm sitting.

As a fare paying passenger with zero personal interest in NZ's share price, NZ lost me as a loyal customer a few years ago. That represents an annual airfare expenditure of approximately $40,000 - which is less than many, but I would've thought still part of a group that NZ would be at some pains not to alienate.

I could be a complete aberration, and not at all indicative of any kind of groundswell. But from where I'm sitting, we're seeing unprecedented levels of choice, variety and value from other carriers. NZ's viability is far from assured. There is room for debate about the direction they're heading, and I believe we could do with seeing more of it here.
 
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77west
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177

Thu May 19, 2016 6:07 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 145):
ZK-OKE is returning from the FTW repaint as the 19 May NZ29 IAH-AKL. ZK-OKA is the 19 May NZ28 AKL-IAH, so that would be a second FTW repaint.

Good use of fleet rotation there. Overall, there will still be two ferry flights though, right, one getting the initial plane there and a final one getting the last plane back?

Unless they do an additional pax flight from IAH (or even LAX / SFO)

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