Rumor: Alitalia To Dry-lease 2 EY A-345s

VCEflyboy · Mon May 09, 2016 3:21 pm

AZ is soon receiving two EY A-345s.
These birds should enter the fleet on June 1st and July 15th respectively in EY livery and with EY cabin crew, with AZ pilots for familiarization.
The aircraft should be converted to full AZ planes in October, replacing two outgoing 777s.

UA444 · Mon May 09, 2016 3:31 pm

AZ is getting rid of two 777s?

euroflyer · Mon May 09, 2016 3:34 pm

Hi,

Any source please ?

VCEflyboy · Mon May 09, 2016 3:42 pm

Apologies I meant to say the 777s are due for retrofit. They are not exiting for good.

Ok this should be publicized the next few days subject to approval by pilot unions.
Basically the EY birds will initially deployed on the FCO JFK, MXP NRT and MXP AUH rotations.

I'm not sure about the configuration. These birds should have F (which would go unsold?) and no Y+ which might be a challenge. We will see...

[Edited 2016-05-09 08:49:38]

EddieDude · Mon May 09, 2016 3:46 pm

Wow, interesting. Hopefully we can get some confirmation that this is the case. Perhaps the A345 would make more sense than the 77E for FCO-MEX-FCO?

gatibosgru · Mon May 09, 2016 4:10 pm

Excited to see the A345 in AZ's colors!

dennys · Mon May 09, 2016 4:20 pm

This has been a dream for me : please tell me if we have a chance to see an A340 in AZ colours ? Many Thanks .

EddieDude · Mon May 09, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 3):
Apologies I meant to say the 777s are due for retrofit. They are not exiting for good.

Oh, okay. Of course, they should be repainted and have the new interiors installed.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 3):
Basically the EY birds will initially deployed on the FCO JFK, MXP NRT and MXP AUH rotations.

The more premium routes hehe.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 3):
These birds should have F (which would go unsold?) and no Y+ which might be a challenge.

Maybe F seats (with J catering) as a free upgrade to the top-tier AZ, EY, SkyTeam frequent fliers? I suppose no W-class could be an inconvenience, but the A345 Y-class at 2-4-2 should be reasonably good for those who are not willing to pay J.

UA444 · Mon May 09, 2016 6:36 pm

Is Boeing going to try to sell 773s to AZ?

co38 · Mon May 09, 2016 9:34 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Thread starter):
AZ is soon receiving two EY A-345s.
These birds should enter the fleet on June 1st and July 15th respectively in EY livery and with EY cabin crew, with AZ pilots for familiarization.

Isn't that called "Damp lease"?

LAX772LR · Mon May 09, 2016 9:51 pm

This has to be one of the more fanciful rumors we've heard in a while:

A perpetually money-losing airline, operating a perpetually money-losing aircraft, that it has absolutely no need (and arguably no use) for.

Would definitely want to see a source, and still likely wouldn't believe it until the day after it happened.

Adipasquale · Mon May 09, 2016 11:00 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Would definitely want to see a source, and still likely wouldn't believe it until the day after it happened.

Count me as one of the skeptics as well. As the saying goes... something that sounds too good (or in this case outrageous) to be true usually is.
It also just doesn't make sense. The way you put it, AZ is going to bring in two A345s, train crews for them, refit and paint them in order to be in service while two 777s undergo mods. This sounds about as likely as DL announcing tomorrow it will purchase A380s to replace its remaining 747s.

blacksoviet · Mon May 09, 2016 11:08 pm

Will they start service to Melbourne?

dc9northwest · Mon May 09, 2016 11:52 pm

Yes, please. Would be great to see this.

Planeflyer · Tue May 10, 2016 2:09 am

In this low fuel environment( b4 we get a ton of posts saying it is only temporary, trust me it will be with us for the next 15-20years) it would seem somebody could make 340/45's work. Love to see more 345's. They are just so cool.

MesaFlyGuy · Tue May 10, 2016 2:14 am

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 12):
Will they start service to Melbourne?

I'm not sure where that came from, but as far as I know there are no plans for AZ to start service to MEL. The aircraft, if this seemingly far-fetched rumor is true, will be operating as follows:

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 3):
the EY birds will initially deployed on the FCO JFK, MXP NRT and MXP AUH rotations

TheRedBaron · Tue May 10, 2016 3:55 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
Wow, interesting. Hopefully we can get some confirmation that this is the case. Perhaps the A345 would make more sense than the 77E for FCO-MEX-FCO?

I'd love to see that !

But knowing the 345 luck....

TRB

Aesma · Tue May 10, 2016 4:33 am

It could be a nice way to give the airline money under the radar. Dirt cheap leases on aircraft.

thepinkmachine · Tue May 10, 2016 6:44 am

Agencies just started advertising for A345 pilot positions in Europe - so I guess there's substance in this rumor...

blacksoviet · Tue May 10, 2016 7:08 am

Is the A343 more efficient than the A345?

LAX772LR · Tue May 10, 2016 7:28 am

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 19):
Is the A343 more efficient than the A345?

A rock with beanie-copter, would be more efficient than the A345 in most applications.

dennys · Tue May 10, 2016 7:52 am

Concerning Long hauls , i would see FCO EZE , or FCO MEX for the Quad . Anyway running them out of Italy to the US or Japan will be more profitable than short trips such as AUH IST , AUH ATH or AUH CAI .

okapi · Tue May 10, 2016 8:22 am

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 12):

Their joint-venture with Etihad means they don't need to fly all the way to Australia. Nowadays, airlines are looking for the most cost-effective operations and the same applies with Air France/Singapore Airlines or even Qantas/Emirates.

The A345 are spare aircraft that will fit perfectly well into the AZ fleet as it will probably cheaper to operate those than leasing 777s to replace their own during maintenance/retrofit programme.

I agree with all: the A345 in AZ colours will be a real bonus to look at.

VAAengineer · Tue May 10, 2016 8:38 am

A6-EHB and A6-EHC will be the 2 aircraft

TC957 · Tue May 10, 2016 10:10 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
A perpetually money-losing airline, operating a perpetually money-losing aircraft, that it has absolutely no need (and arguably no use) for.

So you're not a fan of the pretty A345 then ?

LondonCity · Tue May 10, 2016 11:56 am

Etihad has already supplied an A340-500 to the Italian PM.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...talian-pm-acquires-etihad-a340-500

More info here [IT]

http://www.flyorbitnews.it/2015/10/1...us-a340-500-di-etihad-le-immagini/

scbriml · Tue May 10, 2016 1:47 pm

Quoting VCEflyboy (Thread starter):
The aircraft should be converted to full AZ planes in October, replacing two outgoing 777s.

A345s replacing 777s? Cue the a.net meltdown in 3...2...1...

Quoting TC957 (Reply 24):
So you're not a fan of the pretty A345 then ?

You think?

dennys · Tue May 10, 2016 1:50 pm

Quoting answer 25

Yes but that is known already .

JerseyFlyer · Tue May 10, 2016 3:08 pm

If Etihad were using A345s to sub for their own 777s being re-fitted, that would not be news

gatibosgru · Tue May 10, 2016 3:56 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 24):
So you're not a fan of the pretty A345 then ?

Understatement of the century

EddieDude · Tue May 10, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
It could be a nice way to give the airline money under the radar. Dirt cheap leases on aircraft.

As related parties, EY and AZ need to agree to arm's-length terms and conditions for all their dealings. EY charging "dirt cheap" rents to AZ in connection with the lease of aircraft would not satisfy transfer pricing rules and therefore would have an undesirable tax effect. It's best if the price of the rent is consistent with the market.

PhilInBRN · Tue May 10, 2016 4:26 pm

Isn't there also a deal in place for Etihad to operate under wet-lease agreement one A345 for the Italian government (e.g. PM Renzi)? Is the AZ news somehow related to the gov't deal with EY?

TheRedBaron · Tue May 10, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 26):
A345s replacing 777s? Cue the a.net meltdown in 3...2...1...

I laughed at this, how dare we say the jack of all trades the almighty T7 could compete or even be compared with a four engine aircraft, one that uses hairdryers as engines and takes advantage of the curvature of earth to gain altitude.???

All mumbo jumbo aside the A345 and 346 are very competitive with the T7 on certain lengths and loads...but heck we can dream... MEX is a great destination for those aircraft from europe, hence why LH uses 744 748 and 346 (as well as Iberia) to MEX.

Lets see how this unravels...

TRB

peanuts · Tue May 10, 2016 5:44 pm

If this rumor becomes reality: please, someone kick these clowns out of SkyTeam.

Let me get this straight: AZ has two 777 due for a retrofit. Which, apparently, throws their entire long-haul into chaos. LOL.
Another SkyTeam member and JV partner couldn't cover this?

Something smells so amateurish about this rumor. Then again, we're talking AZ.

Aquila3 · Tue May 10, 2016 5:56 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
please, someone kick these clowns out of SkyTeam.

Wow! Sour grapes?
With all the due un-respect that I have for AZ, it seem to me NOT that our Skyteam in Paris are fulgid example of a well run airline ...
What happens, if it does, could be normal business with a partner that I suspect is now much more relevant than others in SkyTeam.

LondonCity · Tue May 10, 2016 7:23 pm

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 31):
Isn't there also a deal in place for Etihad to operate under wet-lease agreement one A345 for the Italian government (e.g. PM Renzi)? Is the AZ news somehow related to the gov't deal with EY?

Yes. See answer #25 above.

peanuts · Tue May 10, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 34):
Sour grapes?

Not sure you understand the meaning of sour grapes. I have nothing with AZ. No stake. Past or present.

Let's face it. AZ is just puddling along. It's a basket case of how a company is run full of politics, corruption and nepotism. I'm not saying AF is any better.

Leasing an out-of-the-blue aircraft type in such small numbers, with two redundant engines, re-training crew, updating booking software etc etc, is just another case of shoot-from-the-hip management style to me.

treebeard787 · Tue May 10, 2016 10:10 pm

The A345 would look fantastic in AZ colors, I really have my doubts however that this will actually happen. I will believe it when I see it.

dennys · Wed May 11, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting VAAengineer (Reply 23):
A6-EHB and A6-EHC will be the 2 aircraft

FlightRadar24 only tracks A6-EHD fliying to GVA or RBA these last two days .... Wait and see .

Airdolomiti · Wed May 11, 2016 10:55 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
Let me get this straight: AZ has two 777 due for a retrofit. Which, apparently, throws their entire long-haul into chaos. LOL.
Another SkyTeam member and JV partner couldn't cover this?

Whom would you suggest? Judging by how long it took to have FCO-MEX approved, for instance, I wouldn't say that JV partners are particularly open to cooperation.

Most of what has been said regarding the details of this unconfirmed deal is wild speculation, and according to some, AZ might even end up calling off the deal entirely. Rumour has it that unions were insisting on a dry lease with a view to permanently operating the A340s beyond the envisaged period of June to October, but this demand was dismissed by management.

Quite frankly, maintaining that nothing has changed at AZ after a bankruptcy and two ownership changes does not seem particularly objective. Change at AZ is slow, but it is occurring nonetheless.

VAAengineer · Wed May 11, 2016 6:14 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 38):

Quoting dennys (Reply 38):
FlightRadar24 only tracks A6-EHD fliying to GVA or RBA these last two days .... Wait and see .

EHB and EHC are parked in AAN

dennys · Wed May 11, 2016 9:54 pm

[quote=VAAengineer,reply=EHB and EHC are parked in AAN
[/quote]
MNL

Many Thanks . Might they fly for AZ in their original EY colours ?

Devilfish · Thu May 12, 2016 1:21 am

Quoting dennys (Reply 41):
MNL

Are both undergoing heavy maintenance at LTP in MNL?

There were rumors of PR wanting to start FCO but no indication of AZ mounting a reciprocal service.

dennys · Thu May 12, 2016 10:07 am

Quoting VAAengineer (Reply 40):
EHB and EHC are parked in AAN

AAN is like a local " Mojave desert " ? Do they work on aircrafts there ?

VAAengineer · Thu May 12, 2016 11:06 am

Quoting dennys (Reply 43):
AAN is like a local " Mojave desert " ? Do they work on aircrafts there ?

Is the local airport in Al Ain another Emirate in the UAE. Is normally used during weather diversions or flight schools and big enough to store some metal. As far as the paintjob its not
Confirmed yet but I will put my money that it will not change.

dennys · Thu May 12, 2016 11:55 am

[quote=VAAengineer,reply=44] " I will put my money that it will not change [unquote]

Speaking about the aircraft, you must be right ;
1/ these 2 A345s would be wet leased for 6 months
2/ they are about to be defleeted from EY
3/ should they fly MXP AUH (as said in the first announcement) i don't think EY would tolerate a white plane ,

So both should keep their actual colours .... Now wait and see

dennys · Mon May 23, 2016 8:11 am

Some more news about this rumor ? . Apparently A6-EHB and A6-EHC have been defleeted .

Fly-K · Mon May 23, 2016 9:26 am

According to ch-aviation, AZ will add a 772, 332 this year, and a first 77W next year. No mention of any 345...

zkojq · Mon May 23, 2016 10:43 am

Holy cow: this has to be the worst airline/aircraft combination in terms of profitability! How much money can a single flight lose?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 26):
A345s replacing 777s? Cue the a.net meltdown in 3...2...1...

I've been waiting for this moment for ages!

Quoting TC957 (Reply 24):
So you're not a fan of the pretty A345 then ?

Given how he turns any A340-500 related thread into a thread about how ugly he thinks it is, I'm going to say no.

Happy Birthday by the way.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
Let me get this straight: AZ has two 777 due for a retrofit. Which, apparently, throws their entire long-haul into chaos. LOL.

With respect to any AZ employees reading this, it's a basket case of a carrier. I don't know how EY thinks that they're going to get a positive ROI.

Airdolomiti · Mon May 23, 2016 1:13 pm

Per reports on Italian forum AviazioneCivile.it, the project has been "put on hold indefinitely for operational and commercial reasons". But I wouldn't want to curb your enthusiasm over how little sense the plan would have made in the first place

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