User avatar
flybynight
Topic Author
Posts: 1522
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:09 pm

I am sure this has been discussed, but I didn't see a recent thread on it.

But I wonder is it time to start 100% from scratch and replace the 737? The basic design is 50 years old of course.

Yes it is Boeing's best selling plane, but the root-design is, again, 50 years old (as I am!).

737NG's and soon MAX's are great planes ( I fly AS' 737's all the time), but with increased pressure from Airbus with the 320, maybe Boeing should start a new design that is the clear front runner.

With 787's struggling from a profitability perspective, the 747 (sadly) on its last leg, a fresh from-the-ground-up 737 replacement might be the way to go.
Heia Norge!
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:14 pm

797 may be 757 replacement
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:15 pm

A 757 replacement is actually more needed. Boeing is "missing the boat" on this.
 
User avatar
flybynight
Topic Author
Posts: 1522
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:29 pm

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 2):
A 757 replacement is actually more needed. Boeing is "missing the boat" on this.

Doesn't the 737-900 and the 787-800 bridge it fairly well?

I guess the problem with the larger 737's is the range compare to a 757ER
Heia Norge!
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:33 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 3):
Doesn't the 737-900 and the 787-800 bridge it fairly well?

By number of seats, yes........but the weight and balance issues are a whole different story. Especially on flights over four hours.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2643
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:34 pm

IIRC, some think Boeing's best option is the 757/767 solution,

2 different jets for different segments of the market. NSA and MOM.

I think the sooner Boeing starts working on a clean sheet solution

the brighter their future will be   
 
User avatar
flybynight
Topic Author
Posts: 1522
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 5):
some think Boeing's best option is the 757/767 solution,

But isn't the 787 really the replacement for the 767? In size these planes are fairly similar.

Maybe it should be a 737 / 757 replacement solution.
Heia Norge!
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26719
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:39 pm

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
But I wonder is it time to start 100% from scratch and replace the 737?

Boeing's been looking into that for the better part of a decade - it was originally known as Yellowstone 1 (Y1) and is now commonly referred to as NSA (New Small Airplane).

We'll see it, but likely not before the late 2020s at the earliest.



Quoting flybynight (Reply 6):
But isn't the 787 really the replacement for the 767?

It started as a 767 replacement and then grew into a 777(-200 family) replacement, as well.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2643
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:39 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 6):
Maybe it should be a 737 / 757 replacement solution.

Correct, that's what I meant. They need a NSA and MOM frames that will be
different sizes, but share as many parts as possible, even identical flight decks
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:40 pm

Boeing and Bombardier should really come up with joint effort with a 737 replacement and Boeing should seriously think of a true 757 replacement before it is too late. Delta is already buying A321s.
Boeing chased Northwest Airlines into Airbus's clutches by not being willing to work with Northwest on the 737 in the 1980s. Northwest bought the A320 instead. The first North American airline to do so.
Later Northwest wanted Boeing to build a shorter version of the 777, which would have called the 777-100. Again Boeing turned Northwest down. Northwest responded by ordering the Airbus A330.
In fact if Delta had not "merged" with Northwest and acquired their Airbus aircraft, Delta most likely would not be flying and buying Airbus aircraft now.
Boeing better realize they are not the only kid on the block.   

[Edited 2016-05-10 12:42:40]

[Edited 2016-05-10 12:48:07]
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26719
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Later Northwest wanted Boeing to build a shorter version of the 777, which would have called the 777-100. Again Boeing turned Northwest down. Northwest responded by ordering the Airbus A330.

The 777-100's operating economic projections were so poor Northwest would have gone with the A330-200, anyway. Just as Delta and Continental decided to go with the 767-400ER and Singapore with the A340-500 instead of the 777-100.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Boeing and Bombardier should really come up with joint effort with a 737 replacement and Boeing should seriously think of a true 757 replacement before it is too late.

  
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Later Northwest wanted Boeing to build a shorter version of the 777, which would have called the 777-100. Again Boeing turned Northwest down. Northwest responded by ordering the Airbus A330.

The 777-100's operating economic projections were so poor Northwest would have gone with the A330-200, anyway. Just as Delta and Continental decided to go with the 767-400ER and Singapore with the A340-500 instead of the 777-100.

Northwest ordered the A330-300 before Richard changed some of the A330-300 to A330-200 aircraft. I know because I was present when he did it on his Blackberry cell phone. Northwest did order the the A340-200/300 but cancelled the order. Virgin Atlantic flew those that were built.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
B787register
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:39 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 7:55 pm

boeing are missing a trick I think. they are looking for a 756 replacement why?
they could bring the 787-3 back and give it the same range as a 757 but higher pax numbers more cargo at what would essentially be a minor changes rather than a full clean sheet.
this would maximise the dreamliner potential would it not?
David C
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26719
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 12):
Northwest ordered the A330-300 before Richard changed some of the A330-300 to A330-200 aircraft.

And I am sure they went with the A330-300 over the 777-200 because the operating economics favored the A330-300, just as they did the A330-200 over the 777-100.

All NW had to do was order a dozen 777-100s and Boeing would have built it for them - especially because it would have spurred DL and CO to order a couple dozen between themselves and probably would have gotten SQ and BR to take a half-dozen each, as well.



Quoting B787register (Reply 13):
boeing are missing a trick I think. they are looking for a 75(7) replacement why?

Because the 737-9(00ER) is not competitive with the A321-200(neo) - it's lacks the capacity and the performance - and that segment of the market appears to be seeing strong growth at the moment.



Quoting B787register (Reply 13):
they could bring the 787-3 back and give it the same range as a 757 but higher pax numbers more cargo at what would essentially be a minor changes rather than a full clean sheet.

The 787-3 was crippled by it's 53m span. On missions longer than LAX-SFO or LHR-AMS the 787-8 was cheaper to operate so JAL and ANA swapped their 787-3s for 787-8s and everyone else just skipped the -3 and went directly to the -8.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 9:03 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Boeing and Bombardier should really come up with joint effort with a 737 replacement

Why should Boeing work with Bombardier or any other company for a 737 replacement?
 
B787register
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:39 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 9:17 pm

well that's me told. but seriously must be a viable option?
David C
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26719
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 9:43 pm

Quoting B787register (Reply 16):
well that's me told. but seriously must be a viable option?

Honestly, it isn't.

Boeing could probably save a few thousand kilograms using the lighter fuselage structure planned for the 787-3, but then you have a frame that is only a bit less-expensive to operate than a 787-8 yet a fair bit less-capable. The airlines seem to be willing to take an empty weight penalty in exchange for more capability (perhaps they consider it a form of "future proofing" the frame to maximize it's usable life).
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5110
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Tue May 10, 2016 10:40 pm

http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/original_197419_QC7LlLT6AHIv_017hXe9664yh.jpg

How about reexamining something like the Sonic Cruiser?
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
S75752
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 7:52 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 6):

But isn't the 787 really the replacement for the 767? In size these planes are fairly similar.

Maybe it should be a 737 / 757 replacement solution.

What I personally think they should do would be a combo 737 replacement and 757 successor, but in a way also a 767 successor. Key being a smallest-size craft of 737-8 size (given lack of interest in the -700 and -7 anyways), largest model of 753 (maybe slightly larger) size, slightly widened fuselage (but still narrowbody) for larger cargo, and matching the 767-300's loaded range (perhaps in an ER/LR model).

I think the key will be that it is replacing the 737 and 757 (and if it achieves that range, the 767 for lower demand routes), but at the same time it is none of those craft, it is its own new thing, using all new technologies. I'd think of it like the jump from the 767 to the 787, but covering the narrowbodies.

Quoting atypical (Reply 15):

Why should Boeing work with Bombardier or any other company for a 737 replacement?

Pity? :P
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 8:50 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 6):
Maybe it should be a 737 / 757 replacement solution.

Exactly, this is probably the best size for them.

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 8):
Correct, that's what I meant. They need a NSA and MOM frames that will be
different sizes, but share as many parts as possible, even identical flight decks

I think they should combine the NSA and MOM clean sheet projects and create a comprehensive family which has the maximum possible commonality. The smallest aircraft should be 737-800 (160 seats in two class) sized and largest be 757-300 (240 seats in two class). With range from 3000NM to 5000NM depending on model. Making both transatlantic and domestic North American flights possible with maximum efficiency. They need to push the envelope with cutting edge technology and efficiency, as they did with the 787, to make this a platform they can continue to develop for decades and refine just as has been done with the current 737.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):

Boeing and Bombardier should really come up with joint effort with a 737 replacement and Boeing should seriously think of a true 757 replacement before it is too late.

I don't see why they need to work with Bombardier? The CS100 and CS300 sized aircrafts represent too small a market the real worry for Boeing and Airbus is the inevitable CS500, which is all the more reason to get started on introducing a new family with the smallest member squarely aimed at the A320neo and the CS500.

Quoting s75752 (Reply 19):

What I personally think they should do would be a combo 737 replacement and 757 successor, but in a way also a 767 successor. Key being a smallest-size craft of 737-8 size (given lack of interest in the -700 and -7 anyways), largest model of 753 (maybe slightly larger) size, slightly widened fuselage (but still narrowbody) for larger cargo, and matching the 767-300's loaded range (perhaps in an ER/LR model).

Agreed, the market for the 737-7MAX, A319neo, and CS300 is just too small and crowed. If they develop the smallest model of their new family to be 130 seat sized, then either it or the largest sized model would be heavily compromised and/or lose a lot of commonality.

[Edited 2016-05-11 01:51:36]
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3862
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 10:10 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 3):
I guess the problem with the larger 737's is the range compare to a 757ER

No such thing as a 757ER but then I think we have beat this one to death 
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 10:32 am

An interesting topic regarding this new Boeing 797 (160 to 240 seat in two class, sized aircraft) concept would be what seating arrangement is employed and consequently how wide the fuselage is designed to be. Would it be a 6 abreast single aisle in economy (narrow-body) or a 7 abreast dual aisle (wide-body)? What are the potential passenger comfort benefits and economic efficiencies for each type?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3473
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:20 am

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
The basic design is 50 years old of course

Actually 59 years as it's fuselage is based on the 707. As was the 720, 727 & 757 series.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3473
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:41 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 3):
I guess the problem with the larger 737's is the range compare to a 757ER

There was never a 757ER. Just the 200 & 300 with various weights. Never an ER label.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3473
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:48 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Boeing and Bombardier should really come up with joint effort with a 737 replacement and Boeing should seriously think of a true 757 replacement before it is too late. Delta is already buying A321s.
Boeing chased Northwest Airlines into Airbus's clutches by not being willing to work with Northwest on the 737 in the 1980s. Northwest bought the A320 instead. The first North American airline to do so.
Later Northwest wanted Boeing to build a shorter version of the 777, which would have called the 777-100. Again Boeing turned Northwest down. Northwest responded by ordering the Airbus A330.
In fact if Delta had not "merged" with Northwest and acquired their Airbus aircraft, Delta most likely would not be flying and buying Airbus aircraft now.

WOW. You do realize as the 737-900ER/Max & the A321 cover 95% of the market. Boeing would crazy to spend billions chasing 5% of the narrow body market. You do not need a 4000nm range aircraft to do a 1200nm flight.
 
S75752
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:51 am

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 22):
7 abreast dual aisle (wide-body)?

I would estimate maybe .5 - 1 feet wider than the current norm, at the very most, so it doesn't deviate *too* far from the current setup, but does at least perhaps break away from the norm for better results. The intention would not be more passenger capacity though, probably focused on what's needed to accomplish better cargo palette loads. Not enough for adding in another row, let alone another aisle.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3473
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:53 am

Quoting B787register (Reply 13):
they could bring the 787-3 back and give it the same range as a 757 but higher pax numbers more cargo at what would essentially be a minor changes rather than a full clean sheet.

Yeah that will sell well. Look at ANA & JAL that both wanted the 783, then switched the orders because the cost to operate the 788 over the same routes as the 783 was just about as cheap & not worth the added cost.
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 12:06 pm

Quoting s75752 (Reply 26):
I would estimate maybe .5 - 1 feet wider than the current norm, at the very most, so it doesn't deviate *too* far from the current setup, but does at least perhaps break away from the norm for better results. The intention would not be more passenger capacity though, probably focused on what's needed to accomplish better cargo palette loads. Not enough for adding in another row, let alone another aisle.

If they do make a 240+ seat version, then 6 abreast would mean it would be very long indeed, around the same length as the 787 I suppose.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2629
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 12:17 pm

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 28):
If they do make a 240+ seat version, then 6 abreast would mean it would be very long indeed, around the same length as the 787 I suppose.

Which isn't a problem as long as the boarding door(s) are arranged correctly and there is sufficient aisle width for two people to pass while boarding/deboarding.


Any development that is less than 300 seats (single class sardines) has to be single aisle. Otherwise it'll bleed badly to the narrowbodies beneath it.
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 12:26 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 29):
Which isn't a problem as long as the boarding door(s) are arranged correctly and there is sufficient aisle width for two people to pass while boarding/deboarding.


Any development that is less than 300 seats (single class sardines) has to be single aisle. Otherwise it'll bleed badly to the narrowbodies beneath it.

Yeah having a look now at the lengths, the 757-300 is only 178 ft 8 in (54.47 m) and the 787-8 is 186 ft 1 in (56.7 m).
 
dergay
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 12:48 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):



How about reexamining something like the Sonic Cruiser?

Could this be the future "Trump Force 1"?
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1957
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 3:12 pm

If BBD has robust sales with the CS100/300 and launches the CS500 to generous and widespread commercial acclaim, that would pretty much be Boeing's NSA in a nutshell.

Boeing could then concentrate on MOM and, who knows, may try to buy BBD if they sense things moving in that unsavoury direction, but then the Beaudoin family likely wouldn't want to sell...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 3:38 pm

Quoting Faro (Reply 32):

If BBD has robust sales with the CS100/300 and launches the CS500 to generous and widespread commercial acclaim, that would pretty much be Boeing's NSA in a nutshell.

Boeing could then concentrate on MOM and, who knows, may try to buy BBD if they sense things moving in that unsavoury direction, but then the Beaudoin family likely wouldn't want to sell...

I don't really see this sale of Bombardier to Boeing happening. I am not sure of the exact details, but with the family's involvement, the Quebec government bailout, potential federal government bailout, the way the company is structured with the train unit, etc. there would be a lot of issues to overcome to for a sale like this to occur.

More to the point, if bombardier has made the CS100/CS300 a commercial success and launched the CS500 with lots of orders poring in, why would they want to sell? The time for Airbus or Boeing to buy into bombardier and/or the CS project would have been when the project/company was struggling. Now, with the CS project picking up traction, that ship may have sailed.
 
User avatar
flybynight
Topic Author
Posts: 1522
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 4:07 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 25):
WOW. You do realize as the 737-900ER/Max & the A321 cover 95% of the market. Boeing would crazy to spend billions chasing 5% of the narrow body market. You do not need a 4000nm range aircraft to do a 1200nm flight

Not a good way to think. You have to stay competitive with a good product. It seems the A320NEO is pushing the 737MAX very hard. Look at which way DL went. In fact their CEO wants Boeing to build a larger 737.

It is time for Boeing to start fresh.
Heia Norge!
 
S75752
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 30):


Yeah having a look now at the lengths, the 757-300 is only 178 ft 8 in (54.47 m) and the 787-8 is 186 ft 1 in (56.7 m).
Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 28):

If they do make a 240+ seat version, then 6 abreast would mean it would be very long indeed, around the same length as the 787 I suppose.

They better engineer this with no tipping in mind from the start then! 
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 7:03 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 25):

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Boeing and Bombardier should really come up with joint effort with a 737 replacement and Boeing should seriously think of a true 757 replacement before it is too late. Delta is already buying A321s.
Boeing chased Northwest Airlines into Airbus's clutches by not being willing to work with Northwest on the 737 in the 1980s. Northwest bought the A320 instead. The first North American airline to do so.
Later Northwest wanted Boeing to build a shorter version of the 777, which would have called the 777-100. Again Boeing turned Northwest down. Northwest responded by ordering the Airbus A330.
In fact if Delta had not "merged" with Northwest and acquired their Airbus aircraft, Delta most likely would not be flying and buying Airbus aircraft now.

WOW. You do realize as the 737-900ER/Max & the A321 cover 95% of the market. Boeing would crazy to spend billions chasing 5% of the narrow body market. You do not need a 4000nm range aircraft to do a 1200nm flight.

The Boeing 737-900er is an over stretched aircraft with too short of a landing gear which is subject to tail strikes on take off. I call it a tail dragger. It is also under powered due to it's length and limited size of an engine that may be hung on it's wing. Maybe an engine manufacture can design a higher powered engine that will fit under the wing.
I do think the 737 has reached the limits of any greater potential improvement.
That is one reason I mentioned Bombardier. Their is the CS500 and it may possible for Boeing to have an interest in that aircraft in a joint venture. Boeing is currently out sourcing numerous major aircraft parts for the 787. So doing something like this would not be unusual.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 7:23 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 36):
That is one reason I mentioned Bombardier. Their is the CS500 and it may possible for Boeing to have an interest in that aircraft in a joint venture. Boeing is currently out sourcing numerous major aircraft parts for the 787. So doing something like this would not be unusual.

Surely, the C Series cannot be stretched to the 737-900 size (let alone larger) with the same wing, landing gear, etc. So I think you are suggesting they could partner to design a new aircraft. The problem I see is that although Boeing has outsourced the design/production of various parts, I don't see them outsources an entire project. They certainly don't lack skills in designing aircrafts, especially in this case for a model replacing their best selling aircraft. I just fail to see what bombardier (a company which is undoubtedly a direct competitor at this point) would bring to the table. Sure they could impart some know-how and lessons learnt from the C Series project, but it just doesn't seem like something Boeing is lacking, they too have recent experience from the 787, 737max, and 777x projects. What is the specific benefit(s) of inviting Bombardier to the table for this joint venture?

[Edited 2016-05-11 12:23:39]
 
User avatar
AviatorW6
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:05 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 7:27 pm

Is there a need for Boeing to make a true 737-succcessor at all? Wouldn't an aircraft family with the size and capabilities of the 757 be a better choice for the future?
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Reply 38):

Is there a need for Boeing to make a true 737-succcessor at all? Wouldn't an aircraft family with the size and capabilities of the 757 be a better choice for the future?

I think if they built a successor to the 757 exclusively and did not address the 737 for the foreseeable future that would be a mistake. Just as building a 737 successor and not taking into account the 757 sized aircraft market would also be a mistake. They need to build a family which can succeed both aircraft and deliver an efficient common solution for airlines looking to replace their 737s/A320s/A321s (and in the future MAX and Neo versions of each type) and also those that want a smaller (than 787/A330) plane to fly transatlantic and/or potentially transcontinental routes.

At the very least they need to address both problems they could also build two families two replace each type. As Boeing has indicated they are studying a new small aircraft (737 sized) and a middle of the market aircraft (757 sized). Like I said earlier I personally don't see why combining these projects into one would not be possible.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 10:26 pm

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 37):

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 36):
That is one reason I mentioned Bombardier. Their is the CS500 and it may possible for Boeing to have an interest in that aircraft in a joint venture. Boeing is currently out sourcing numerous major aircraft parts for the 787. So doing something like this would not be unusual.

Surely, the C Series cannot be stretched to the 737-900 size (let alone larger) with the same wing, landing gear, etc. So I think you are suggesting they could partner to design a new aircraft. The problem I see is that although Boeing has outsourced the design/production of various parts, I don't see them outsources an entire project.

I did not say Boeing should out source the complete project. That will never happen. I mentioned a joint venture and only meant the CS500 as a starting point. I know the C-Series can't be stretched to 737-900 size. In fact the C-Series is only five abreast while the 737 is six abreast. If Boeing is going to build something this size of the 737-900, Boeing might as well build only a 757 replacement. Boeing needs to build something new in the 150 to 160 passengers that is not an updated version of a sixty year old aircraft that has disadvantages of a short landing gear when aircraft engines that were built were not as large in diameter and were not High Bypass engines, or power plants, that were developed starting with the 747 and DC-10. A 737 beyond the 737-800 is pushing the aircraft beyond any real practical use and reality.
The original 737-100/200 had the power plant almost buried into the wing.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Tanner


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Manuel Mueller
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean-Philippe Richard


  
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:28 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 40):
I did not say Boeing should out source the complete project. That will never happen. I mentioned a joint venture and only meant the CS500 as a starting point. I know the C-Series can't be stretched to 737-900 size. In fact the C-Series is only five abreast while the 737 is six abreast.

So I definitely don't want to turn this into one of those mean spirited threads on this website where people just go back and forth. But I genuinely find this an interesting proposal so I would like to have a constructive discussion.

I would like to know what the nature of this proposed joint venture would be? We obviously agree that the C Series cannot be stretched to a 737-900 sized aircraft. So say Bombardier launches a CS500 (which is inevitable), and it is approximately the size of the 737-800. From what I can understand, you seem to be suggesting (correct me if I wrong) that Boeing basically licences the C Series or a derivative of the aircraft to be its new 110 to 160 seat family (in two class),and launches a new MOM family to be 180-240 (in two class) seat? From Boeing's perspective this might be an decent idea. However, what are the benefits for Bombardier? Surely they can sell their aircrafts without them being labeled Boeings. Sure, Boeing could throw a boat load of cash their way, but then doesn't that defeat the point of not developing their own aircraft?

I think this is an interesting concept, but I want to know what you believe specifics and motivation of such a venture would be for both sides? To me it just doesn't seem to add up, I would love to be convinced otherwise though.

[Edited 2016-05-11 16:30:01]
 
S75752
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Wed May 11, 2016 11:38 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Reply 38):
Is there a need for Boeing to make a true 737-succcessor at all? Wouldn't an aircraft family with the size and capabilities of the 757 be a better choice for the future?

I argue that by being a 737 successor, it would also be a 757 successor, but would still be quite different from both of those, perhaps even only alike to either one in that it's a 6-abreast narrow body and maybe similar size models to both (though leaving the -7's behind). In many respects, a successor would hopefully be greater than its predecessors, far outmatching even the 757's capabilities range wise, well in to the 767's range territory, and of course designed for the longer fuselage lengths from the start instead of an underpowered tipping-prone afterthought.

The common and quite frankly one of the strongest arguments against the 757's modern value is its niche, and this is largely true. Everything under 3000 miles is getting eaten up by the 737 NG and Max, and everything above 3750 Miles is pretty much widebody and BBJ territory due to range requirements. However, 3000 - 5500 miles is certainly not such a tiny niche, and would open up a massive range of possibilities that would not have been anticipated before, just as the 757 did with 1980's engineering for smaller TATL routes, and just as the 787 did with modern engineering for pioneering many routes that would not have been attempted otherwise. To have that capability in a narrowbody would open up much more than a simple niche.

However, to do this, Boeing would likely need to set aside what they have in the 737 and 757, and create something completely new.

Of course, my idea of a target is certainly optimistic and perhaps overly so, the big question is if it is even possible. The range jump from the 767-300 to the 787-8 was, I'd estimate, about 1300 miles in practice (comparing longest non-stop flights, though maybe this isn't the best comparison due to the larger size of the 788). This estimate of mine would demand a jump of approximately 1700-2000 miles from the 752's peak capabilities for an ER/LR model.

My guess would be something like;
797-8; Roughly the size of the 737-8. The standard size 737 replacement catering to the pre-existing sweet spot. ~3900 Mile practical range
797-9; Roughly the size of the 757-200. Catering to the large 737 market, but without the whole tipping and performance issues. ~4200 Mile practical range.
797-10; The largest variant for the high-demand markets, likely around the same size as the 757-300 ~3900 Mile practical range (Better not underpower this!)
LR: Made from either the -9 or -10 as the long haul variant, with a good 5000-5500 mile practical range and the necessary adjustments for that.

So can Boeing do that? I think it's possible, by innovating on what they had done with the 787, and of course using new technologies and lessons to build further on that. Maybe not quite up to the 5500 Mile target, but if not, then at least up to a 5000 mile practical range target.

Would it sell? This I have no clue about. Boeing would have to try and push it as the actual replacement to the 737 (I doubt they would bother advertising anything about the 757), and compared to the 767 to 787 that is no easy task. The 737 is the craft airlines build entire fleets out of, the 767 was not. Boeing would probably still produce the 737 Max to meet the existing fleet demands of airlines, but it would be airlines with already very diverse fleets that would be most enthusiastic to adopt this new craft as a mainstream Widebody, but airlines focused on the 737 would likely be the most resistant to a change initially.

Would it be profitable? No clue either. I should pay closer attention to the widebody vs narrowbody long-haul profitability topics.

This is all just a guess. I felt like putting it out there.
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 12:00 am

Quoting s75752 (Reply 42):
My guess would be something like;
797-8; Roughly the size of the 737-8. The standard size 737 replacement catering to the pre-existing sweet spot. ~3900 Mile practical range
797-9; Roughly the size of the 757-200. Catering to the large 737 market, but without the whole tipping and performance issues. ~4200 Mile practical range.
797-10; The largest variant for the high-demand markets, likely around the same size as the 757-300 ~3900 Mile practical range (Better not underpower this!)
LR: Made from either the -9 or -10 as the long haul variant, with a good 5000-5500 mile practical range and the necessary adjustments for that.

I think this is pretty much spot on. Only minor changes might be a slightly shorter range and more efficiency for the 797-8, since it will need to compete with aircrafts such as the CS500 and not all airlines need that much range for a lot of short haul flights in North America and Europe. Also, I think, like you mentioned, the 5500NM might be a little bit too much for the LR version, it could be done but at either the cost of commonality or efficiency. I think 4500NM to 5000NM practical range should be enough to open up a lot of new markets.

If this would come to fruition, I am sure the folks in Toulouse will also be looking at developing a competitor.
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 1:02 am

Boeing only has the 737 MAX 8 to compete against not only the A320neo, but now the C Series.

Boeing can't make a larger 737 MAX (Mad-MAX), because the aircraft would not only be a terrible performer but Airbus would then have incentive to create the A322.

I would argue that Airbus has incentive already to create the A322, seeing as there is a need for an aircraft, more or less of that size.

Boeing is in a really precarious position at this point, in my opinion.

The CS100 and CS300 already knock the 737-7 and A319/neo clear out of the ballpark, but if/when Bombardier launches the CS500, that will, in essence, be the NSA we've been waiting for. The 737 MAX 8 and A320neo will then have another, potentially superior aircraft to compete against.

The 737 MAX 7 and MAX 8 will especially be bested.

And we all know the 737 MAX 9 is no match for the A321neo, but if Airbus launches the A322, that's it for Boeing and the narrow body market with the 737 and the MoM, as Airbus has beat them to that market.

The CS300, CS500, A321neo and A322 are potentially the best narrow body aircraft in the world, covering everything from regional aircraft to the 787/A330.

Boeing MUST make a scratch built 737 replacement.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 1:06 am

Quoting s75752 (Reply 42):
My guess would be something like;
797-8; Roughly the size of the 737-8. The standard size 737 replacement catering to the pre-existing sweet spot. ~3900 Mile practical range
797-9; Roughly the size of the 757-200. Catering to the large 737 market, but without the whole tipping and performance issues. ~4200 Mile practical range.
797-10; The largest variant for the high-demand markets, likely around the same size as the 757-300 ~3900 Mile practical range (Better not underpower this!)
LR: Made from either the -9 or -10 as the long haul variant, with a good 5000-5500 mile practical range and the necessary adjustments for that.

Sounds good, but for your 797-10, I'd give it a larger wing, uprated engine, taller 757 styled gear and larger empennage, among other things, to not only give it peak performance, but maintain its economics.

Same strategy as the E-Jet/E2.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 6687
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 2:01 am

Alas, BBD themselves are not too enthusiastic about the idea.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-near-term-plan-for-cs500-425205/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 2:43 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 46):

Of course BBD is going to deny planes for the CS500 at this time.

They want to focus on getting the CS100 and CS300 on the right foot.

I think they suspect what I am suspecting. The CS500 seems like it would indeed be just a stretch of the CS300, which would then affect sales of the CS100. I also think we're seeing this with the 787. The 787-8 and -9 were the only two models up until the -10 was launched in 2013. We've seen very few -8 orders since.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9227
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 5:10 am

The CSeries has nothing that Boeing could not beat with their own resources. So far Bombardier is not making money with the plane, nobody is flying it in commercial service and the GTF has proven troublesome so far. The 737 on the other hand as a huge backlog and a large line of blue chip customers.

Boeing will surely launch a new single aisle design when the time is right and will once again revolutionize the industry, just a like any new Boeing design did in the past.
 
S75752
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: 797 The Eventual Succesor To The 737?

Thu May 12, 2016 5:35 am

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 43):
need to compete with aircrafts such as the CS500 and not all airlines need that much range for a lot of short haul flights in North America and Europe.

I don't think it'd necessarily need a shortened max range to keep that efficiency, probably just optional fuel tanks that they can subtract from to get more cargo space, maybe a smaller engine option.

I don't think the CS500 or similar aircraft are ever going to be much competition for Boeing. It'll be of interest to airlines that are already interested in the CS300 or 100, not airlines that are already using 737's or 320's in that particular role. And that's not many that wouldn't be already using the 737 or 320 comfortably. The CS500 can coexist, probably acting as just a larger CSeries, no competition with the 737.

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 43):
Also, I think, like you mentioned, the 5500NM might be a little bit too much for the LR version, it could be done but at either the cost of commonality or efficiency. I think 4500NM to 5000NM practical range should be enough to open up a lot of new markets.

I meant Statute Miles for those,but I guess the on paper range that I propose would be those in NM, with the practical range coming in a bit short of the on-paper range as always to about 5500 Statute, but yeah some 1800 miles from the 752's range could be too big of a jump... Then again, so does technology and innovation, so it could be very possible today with a new design.

I think that commonality wouldn't be the issue though, I'd imagine that with a fresh slate for the 797 Boeing would probably have the basic design ready for some pretty impressive LR variant without deviating much from the main one. Efficiency, though, could be the real question...

[Edited 2016-05-11 22:39:19]

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos