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nitepilot79
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EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 4:14 am

According to the article, these pilots feel under accommodated when it comes to being allowed to pump breast milk. In response, they filed a discrimination complaint with the EOE, through the ALCU, and the law firm Howell Shuster & Goldberg. Keep on pumpin' :

http://www.9news.com/news/local/fema...gainst-frontier-airlines/184672909

Article qoute:

"DENVER BUSINESS JOURNAL - Four pilots with Frontier Airlines say the Denver-based carrier has discriminated against them by failing to accommodate their breast-pumping needs.

They say the airline made it extremely difficult for them to continue to breast feed their babies once they returned to work.

The American Civil Liberties Union and the law firm of Holwell Shuster & Goldberg LLP filed a discrimination complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's Denver office on the pilots' behalf."
 
ikramerica
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 4:27 am

Are they supposed to add a third pilot to accommodate this? Schedule them on very short hops? Accommodation doesn't mean changing the job description.
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alasizon
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 4:32 am

In theory, shouldn't this be filed against the FAA as I believe they wrote a FAR or two that prohibit unauthorized personnel in the cockpit. Particularly those unable to assist themselves in the event of an emergency
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nitepilot79
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 4:37 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):
Are they supposed to add a third pilot to accommodate this? Schedule them on very short hops? Accommodation doesn't mean changing the job description.

No need for extra pilots or very short hops, they can just do it up on the flight deck .
 
jetwet1
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 4:39 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):
Quoting Alasizon (Reply 2):

None of the above guys, all you need to do is provide them with a private sanctuary space and a means to refrigerate the milk.

The airline isn't required to provide a space on an aircraft to pump the milk, only on the ground,.


Edit : Actualy, they don't need to provide a fridge.

I know a lot of people are going to have fun with this thread, but if I was the CEO of F9 I would be out for blood, to have this lawsuit and the Feds crawling up my companies ass because we couldn't provide a private space for these women to pump is beyond stupid.

[Edited 2016-05-10 21:53:23]
 
nitepilot79
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 4:40 am

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 2):
In theory, shouldn't this be filed against the FAA as I believe they wrote a FAR or two that prohibit unauthorized personnel in the cockpit. Particularly those unable to assist themselves in the event of an emergency
Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 3):

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):
Are they supposed to add a third pilot to accommodate this? Schedule them on very short hops? Accommodation doesn't mean changing the job description.

No need for extra pilots or very short hops, they can just do it up on the flight deck .

Funny timing there   .
 
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enilria
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 6:35 am

When you are on a 1 week trip which is common, how is it even possible to pump and transport a week worth of milk? Also, how is it possible to pre-pump a week worth of milk to prevent a gap?

Milk, as opposed to formula, is not a requirement for a healthy baby and in terms of quality of the baby's life with limited access to a parent who travels for work, that is something the male pilots have dealt with for a lot longer, and it is a sad but requisite part of a job like that. Anti-discrimination laws also mean a female parent has no greater right to access to a young child than a male parent.
 
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 6:49 am

From the article:

The pilots — Shannon Kiedrowsk, Brandy Beck, Erin Zielinkski and Randi Freyer — have collectively worked for Frontier for 35 years.

Ooh, 35 years combined? Wow, royalty!   

It also has no bearing on whether or not F9 has complied with the law.

The Frontier pilots presented possible remedies to the airline but have not heard back from them, said Galen Sherwin, senior staff attorney with the ACLU Women’s Rights Project.

I'd be curious to know what those proposed remedies were.
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jetwet1
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 8:34 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
Ooh, 35 years combined? Wow, royalty!

Sarcasm i hope

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
When you are on a 1 week trip which is common, how is it even possible to pump and transport a week worth of milk? Also, how is it possible to pre-pump a week worth of milk to prevent a gap?

It doesn't matter what they do with the milk after it has been pumped, the law is clear on this, you HAVE to provide a space for the employee.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/nursingmothers/faqbtnm.htm

Fair use:

Employers are required to provide a reasonable amount of break time and a space to express milk as frequently as needed by the nursing mother, for up to one year following the birth of the employee’s child. The frequency of breaks needed to express breast milk as well as the duration of each break will likely vary. The space provided by the employer cannot be a bathroom, and it must be shielded from view and free from intrusion by coworkers or the public.

So end of story, if you want to run a business in the US you have to comply with this law.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
I'd be curious to know what those proposed remedies were.

If I was to guess, a permanent space at Denver and use of the station managers office at out stations.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Anti-discrimination laws also mean a female parent has no greater right to access to a young child than a male parent.

That has no bearing on the issue here, though I happen to agree with you, unless a court orders it to be different, that could be a whole different thread in non av, my god son is going through custody hell with his ex right now, sometimes the court system just leaves you scratching your head.
 
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 9:45 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 8):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):I'd be curious to know what those proposed remedies were.

If I was to guess, a permanent space at Denver and use of the station managers office at out stations.

I'm guessing it had to be far more than that; the remedies outlined above are more than reasonable, and no sane HR or employee medical relations specialist would ever turn down those solutions.

Again, that's just a guess.
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Amiga500
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 9:48 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
Ooh, 35 years combined? Wow, royalty!

Well brains, if you figure they have babies, that pretty much puts a limit on how old they can be.

Which of course puts a limit on how long they can have been commercial pilots.
 
Amiga500
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 9:53 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 8):
Employers are required to provide a reasonable amount of break time and a space to express milk as frequently as needed by the nursing mother,

"As frequently as needed" could be a problem; its a bit of an open ended statement which is completely incompatible with the rules of flying aircraft.


"Tower, on finals now"

"ooh, actually, I need to pump now, can we go-around"
 
airtran737
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 9:56 am

This is ridiculous. What do they want? A third pilot? A closed off area in the cabin for them to pump? Pump before, pump after, but during the flight, you have an obligation to ensure the safety of your aircraft and passengers.
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Amiga500
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 10:00 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 12):
This is ridiculous. What do they want? A third pilot? A closed off area in the cabin for them to pump? Pump before, pump after, but during the flight, you have an obligation to ensure the safety of your aircraft and passengers.

Well, how ridiculous it is depends on exactly what they've asked for in terms of arrangements.

If the airline has completely ignored them, then they have a moral case IMO.

If the airline has attempted to sort facilities for them on all/most relevant ground stations, but they want in-air provisions, then their case is impractical and immoral (IMO) - even if it is "legal".


Note that what is legal and illegal has long since diverged from what is right and what is wrong. Crazy.
 
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 10:14 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 13):
but they want in-air provisions, then their case is impractical and immoral (IMO) - even if it is "legal".

They can always pump in the toilet. Female passangers do this so why not female flight crew?
 
Amiga500
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 10:21 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 14):
They can always pump in the toilet. Female passangers do this so why not female flight crew?

'cos they are supposedly meant to be flying the plane.


Unless we come out and admit that really its mostly the autopilot flying the plane and the 2 "sky-gods" up front are actually there just to keep an eye on things and talk to control towers - its somewhat akin to a taxi-driver using a google driverless car. 

[Edited 2016-05-11 03:21:44]
 
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enilria
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 10:31 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 8):
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 12):
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 13):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 14):

Apparently the law says pumping in the toilet is not acceptable. I guess if we are talking about the terminal in DEN then fine give them a space. Who knows where that would be, probably somebody's office as there isn't too much in the way of posh closed space in the ops area. They usually have the feel of a gas station. Also doing this at every outstation would be nearly impossible as its all contracted and are they supposed to lease a room at 100 airports for 3 pilots to use when they happen to come through?

If it's on the airplane it's comically impractical and potentially dangerous. I know it can be quite painful when you need to pump and can't. I would question whether a pilot in pain is safe to fly at all. Perhaps that needs to be investigated. You don't want a pilot in a rush to land because of associated pain.
 
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 1:02 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 15):
Unless we come out and admit that really its mostly the autopilot flying the plane and the 2 "sky-gods" up front are actually there just to keep an eye on things and talk to control towers - its somewhat akin to a taxi-driver using a google driverless car.

I say this respectfully ... but, if you think a pilot's "job" is the actual physical flying of the aircraft, then it appears you really don't understand the job at all. I would guess that less than 5% of my time and attention when working is actual hands-on flying.

Don't get me wrong ... I would love to be a pilot in the 1940s, where all I had to do is fly ... while the Engineer and his assistant monitored systems, while the Navigators plotted a course, while the Radio Officers maintained communication, all commanded and overseen by the Captain. But there is a reason why a Boeing B314 flew across the Atlantic with 12 on the flight deck, and why a Boeing B787 does so with 2!

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
If it's on the airplane it's comically impractical and potentially dangerous.

I think the real issue here is not with Frontier ... but with labour laws in the United States that do not mandate and require paid maternity leave like other countries.
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airtran737
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 1:13 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 13):
Well, how ridiculous it is depends on exactly what they've asked for in terms of arrangements.

If the airline has completely ignored them, then they have a moral case IMO.

If the airline has attempted to sort facilities for them on all/most relevant ground stations, but they want in-air provisions, then their case is impractical and immoral (IMO) - even if it is "legal".

I have no objection to them being provided facilities to pump at DEN. That is F9's base, and they can make "reasonable accommodations'' to be within the spirit of the law. However, if the pilots are asking for extra accommodations to be made in air, then that is where the company needs to make a stand to say that due to medical reasons, these women cannot currently perform the role of a pilot, and put them in other roles until such a time as they are 100% able to fly.
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Revelation
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 1:38 pm

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 13):
Well, how ridiculous it is depends on exactly what they've asked for in terms of arrangements.

If the airline has completely ignored them, then they have a moral case IMO.

If the airline has attempted to sort facilities for them on all/most relevant ground stations, but they want in-air provisions, then their case is impractical and immoral (IMO) - even if it is "legal".

The follow-on article at http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/bl...e-discrimination-suit-against.html says:

Quote:

In a statement, the airline said its policies and practices comply with all federal and state laws as well as with the relevant provisions of the collective bargaining agreement between Frontier and its pilots group.

"While there are many work places that might allow for nursing mothers to express breast milk during a break from work activities, the duties of a commercial airline pilot present unique circumstances," the statement said. "We have made good-faith effort to identify and provide rooms and other secure locations for use by breast-feeding pilots during their duty travel."

So F9 thinks they've got this covered.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 13):
Note that what is legal and illegal has long since diverged from what is right and what is wrong. Crazy.

It comes down to:

Quote:

“We love our jobs as pilots for Frontier Airlines and we shouldn’t have to choose between our jobs and breast-feeding our children,” said Kiedrowski.

Some could argue that being a pilot and being a breast-feeding mom are pretty incompatible.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
I think the real issue here is not with Frontier ... but with labour laws in the United States that do not mandate and require paid maternity leave like other countries.

Yes, that is being raised in this case as well. They say:

Quote:
The pilots say the airline's policies violate state and federal laws against sex discrimination in employment because they treat pregnancy and breast-feeding less favorably than other medical conditions or disabilities that have a disproportionate effect on women.

It should be interesting to see how far they get with this kind of argument.
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apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 1:41 pm

F9 also mandates that they take unpaid maternity leave starting at 38 (36?) weeks. I am completely fine with removing them from flight status but you have to offer a reasonable accommodation to them or another role during that time frame. If you agree or disagree with it that's fine but that is the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_Discrimination_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_v._United_Parcel_Service
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 1:56 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Some could argue that being a pilot and being a breast-feeding mom are pretty incompatible.

In what decade?!?!
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ikramerica
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 2:02 pm

I agree that if the airline hasn't addressed it they have some splainin to do.

As for keeping the milk fresh on a long trip that isn't necessary. The milk can be discarded. It's the act of expressing it that keeps it flowing for the little one later. It's very unlikely a baby of a female pilot will live off 100% milk. There will be formula involved. But the goal is as much milk as possible.

I wasn't being dismissive, just pointing out the job itself makes it impossible without rewriting the job description. And the law only requires reasonable accommodation, not rewriting the job description.
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apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 2:22 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 22):
As for keeping the milk fresh on a long trip that isn't necessary. The milk can be discarded. It's the act of expressing it that keeps it flowing for the little one later. It's very unlikely a baby of a female pilot will live off 100% milk. There will be formula involved. But the goal is as much milk as possible.

Correct. When my wife was pumping if she had a trip (not an airline pilot) she would deep freeze what she could and dispose of what she couldn't when returning home.
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ordbosewr
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 2:37 pm

First, we need to be clear this is a requirement for all companies.
It is very common across most companies to have 'mothers rooms' where they can have peace and even take phone calls will pumping.

This is all because it is medically proven that breast feeding is the best source of nutrients for the child. Formula is a substitute but is not preferred.
https://www2.aap.org/breastfeeding/faqsBreastfeeding.html

My wife for all of our children pumped and then froze the milk and carried it on the plane for flights home. She had to pump a couple of times on the plane and used the bathroom, one very long flight (international) and one long domestic flight with a delay on takeoff that made it longer than the international flight.

At my company they go a step beyond that. Our new mothers don't need to pack or carry on any milk
All the mother does is schedule with a 3rd party the location she will be (ie hotel) and the service will drop off all of the materials (ie storage bags, etc).
The mother pumps and makes sure it is cold/frozen, they schedule a pickup (once per week allowed),
The service provider brings dry ice and the outer packaging to the pickup puts the milk in the shipping container with dryice and ships using UPS/Fedex to the address of the mother's choosing (most likely home). This is a great service and one which many traveling moms would use in a heartbeat if it was available.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 3:21 pm

I wonder what the rules are as to how "far along" a pregnant woman can fly before being grounded...
 
jetwet1
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 5:21 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 14):

They can always pump in the toilet. Female passangers do this so why not female flight crew?

Not allowed by law.
 
apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 5:44 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 26):

Not allowed by law.


Not necessarily, just that it can't be the only option provided under the law. Having said that these pilots have agreed that using the lav is ok by them during a turn as long as they have assurances from F9 they won't be punished for doing so.
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INFINITI329
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 5:57 pm

A judge is going to have a hard time with this case. I them see ruling for pilots on the ground but ruling for the airline in the air.
 
apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Wed May 11, 2016 6:07 pm

Some of the people commenting really need to read the complaint to get a true idea of what is going on. Nothing that is being asked for is out of the ordinary or any more difficult to accommodate under the law because the employee in question is a pilot:

https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/final-eeoc-charge-randi-freyer
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rbavfan
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 1:52 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
Ooh, 35 years combined?

8.75 years each. wow. The best part is what are they going to do with the milk. Have it flown daily for their husbands to pick it up.
 
AAR90
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 29):
Nothing that is being asked for is out of the ordinary or any more difficult to accommodate under the law because the employee in question is a pilot:

The following --taken directly from the linked "ACLU Charge of Discrimination"-- seems to contradict your claim (above)...


57. Accordingly, I am seeking the following relief:

c. A policy ensuring sufficient breaks and a private location other than a lavatory for pumping, including but not limited to while on duty, during training and simulation exercises, and during turns at outstations;
d. Designation of adequate facilities (consisting of a convenient, private location other than a lavatory or restroom) for pumping, including on aircraft, during training and simulation exercises, and at outstations.
e. Publication of a list of breastfeeding and pumping resources, including a list of adequate facilities (a convenient, private location, other than a lavatory or restroom), at each outstation where breastfeeding employees may pump breast milk (every airport is already required by law to have facilities available for its own hourly employees who need to pump breast milk);
f. A policy permitting a temporary delegation of pre- and post- flight duties to the other pilot when a pilot is breastfeeding and needs additional break time to pump breast milk;

IMHO, the above demonstrates someone is seeking an awful lot that is very clearly "out of the ordinary" and very much "more difficult to accommodate" specifically because the employee in question is a pilot.
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BobbyPSP
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 3:04 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 31):

Agree. Female pilots have been around a long time; has anything similar been filed over the years? Basically a curtained off area on an aircraft but the expense vs so few... I don't know. I really feel you pursue this career well aware of the disruption to personal life.

The part about delegating duties in such a safety critical position doesn't sit well with me either. Something must be going on during training and ground duties that really triggered this, with the added a/c accommodations throw in as icing on the cake.

Surely all the pilot and f/a's on here have run across this in the past and have some additional insight
 
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 3:23 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 10):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):Ooh, 35 years combined? Wow, royalty!

Well brains, if you figure they have babies, that pretty much puts a limit on how old they can be.

Settle down there pal, my point was that their combined seniority has precisely ZERO to do with the merits of their claim.

While their time with the company is obviously not long, the author of that article likely chose to add up their combined years of service and included that non-relevant point in an attempt to play on the emotions of the reader.
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 3:29 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 31):
IMHO, the above demonstrates someone is seeking an awful lot that is very clearly "out of the ordinary" and very much "more difficult to accommodate" specifically because the employee in question is a pilot.

I think you're correct, but reading through the whole complaint it looks like the initial desired remedy was for additional time beyond the 120 days leave. Since Frontier refused that, this is trying to show what the alternative accomodations would need to be - in other words, a negotiation tactic that might get Frontier to realize the originally desired remedy would be a much easier pill to swallow.
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 5:50 am

Quoting dennypayne (Reply 34):
I think you're correct, but reading through the whole complaint it looks like the initial desired remedy was for additional time beyond the 120 days leave. Since Frontier refused that, this is trying to show what the alternative accomodations would need to be - in other words, a negotiation tactic that might get Frontier to realize the originally desired remedy would be a much easier pill to swallow.

Even if it's increased to 180 days, they still have to accommodate pumping.
 
bennett123
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 6:06 am

I am trying to think of a private place on an aircraft, APART from the toilet and restroom.

Is the idea to have half the cockpit screened off?.
 
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FredrikHAD
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 7:32 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Milk, as opposed to formula, is not a requirement for a healthy baby and in terms of quality of the baby's life with limited access to a parent who travels for work

Of course you can raise a baby on formula, even formula only, but the long- and short-term health effects of brest feeding are substantial (and well researched). With the pilot shortage, the industry needs all pilots available and this shouldn't be all that hard to accomplish.

/Fredrik
 
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 12:11 pm

Quoting b727fa (Reply 21):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Some could argue that being a pilot and being a breast-feeding mom are pretty incompatible.

In what decade?!?!

In pretty much every decade. Now, do you want to tell us why you think they are so compatible? I see a business intensely focused on schedules where the participants spend long periods of time away from home as not very compatible. Note when I say incompatible, I mean difficult to accomplish, not impossible to accomplish.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 31):
A policy permitting a temporary delegation of pre- and post- flight duties to the other pilot when a pilot is breastfeeding and needs additional break time to pump breast milk

Of course the policy will need to consider the case where both pilots have such a need.
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airtran737
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 12:27 pm

All I see is a cockpit member who is unable to perform her duties because of her need to be away from her duty station. It is not a reasonable accommodation to put an additional crew member on the aircraft so that she can pump, nor is it reasonable to take away revenue seating on aircraft to have a designated pumping area. These women should pump before their flight, and upon arrival. If that is not acceptable, then they should be removed from flying status due to not being able to completely perform, and be placed on administrative duties until such time that they can return to normal flying status.
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Revelation
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 12:44 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 39):
All I see is a cockpit member who is unable to perform her duties because of her need to be away from her duty station.

Well, I think you should see a bit more than that.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 39):
nor is it reasonable to take away revenue seating on aircraft to have a designated pumping area.

Yet it appears that this is what the law demands.

Should be interesting to see what comes of this. As above this all could just be a negotiating tactic to get better conditions with regard to maternity leave, but if it is shown to be a successful tactic, it can be used to leverage all kinds of other things. We see F9 is pushing back, presumably for this very reason.
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b727fa
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 1:51 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 39):
These women should pump before their flight, and upon arrival. If that is not acceptable, then they should be removed from flying status due to not being able to completely perform

Said by a man.
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airtran737
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
Well, I think you should see a bit more than that.

I don't. It take's an extend amount of time to pump. That's additional time to have one of the f/a's standing in the cockpit with the other pilot, which then takes away from cabin servicing. Pump before and after the flight. If the need to pump is so bad that they cannot fly three hours without doing so, then maybe they need to be on the ground working until they are done breast feeding. Seems like it is a distraction. I don't want the person next to me saying "we gotta go and get up there so I can go back and pump.'' That means her head isn't in the right area and is prioritizing the wrong things.

Quoting b727fa (Reply 41):
Said by a man.

I want the person next to me focused on the task at hand. Not worrying about getting away to pump. There are plenty of other professions who make due. When my g/f was nursing and working as a nurse, she would work 12 hour shifts without pumping because of work volume. So why can't a F9 pilot go three?
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mjoelnir
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 2:40 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 42):
I want the person next to me focused on the task at hand. Not worrying about getting away to pump. There are plenty of other professions who make due. When my g/f was nursing and working as a nurse, she would work 12 hour shifts without pumping because of work volume. So why can't a F9 pilot go three?

There are several points to this demands and the least during flight.

1. Having to take unpaid free for quite a long time before and after the birth, no accommodation being able to do some kind of paid work on the ground at the airline.
2. No facilities on the ground to pump before and after the flight.
3. Some way to be able to refrigerate the pumped milk on the departure or destination side.

Regarding pumping during the flight. Is there a rule against pumping in the cockpit? Is there not a jump seat in most cockpits? It should only be a problem on longer flights above 4 hours.

I do not think all those demands are completely unreasonable.

[Edited 2016-05-12 08:39:04]
 
apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 3:37 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 42):
I want the person next to me focused on the task at hand. Not worrying about getting away to pump. There are plenty of other professions who make due. When my g/f was nursing and working as a nurse, she would work 12 hour shifts without pumping because of work volume. So why can't a F9 pilot go three?

Then your g/f isn't very intelligent as that is bad for her and her milk supply. I also highly doubt that is accurate as my wife is also a nurse (NICU) and works 12s as well and never had any issues with pumping.
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ssteve
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 4:27 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 43):
2. No facilities on the ground to pump before and after the flight.

Yeah, this isn't a demand for new facilities in flight, though conceivably they could demand shorter segments if there's no such facility.

And the accommodation can be laughably terrible and still fit with the law, anyways. A jumpseat next to a frequently used lav with a flimsy curtain around it would probably fit the letter of the law, and that could be used by any crew on longer flights, not just pilots.

Would probably be more of an issue if junior FAs staffed longer flights.
 
 
airtran737
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 44):

Then your g/f isn't very intelligent as that is bad for her and her milk supply. I also highly doubt that is accurate as my wife is also a nurse (NICU) and works 12s as well and never had any issues with pumping.

No. Not intelligent at all. Just two undergraduate and a masters degree, plus going back to become a nurse practitioner.

Good for your wife. Now put her in a level one trauma center where they are constantly understaffed to a point where they barely get a chance to take a piss during the day, and then maybe she wouldn't have time to pump during her shift.
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apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 5:53 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 47):
Good for your wife. Now put her in a level one trauma center where they are constantly understaffed to a point where they barely get a chance to take a piss during the day, and then maybe she wouldn't have time to pump during her shift.

Well she works in the only level one NICU in the state and handles high risk deliveries but they aren't that busy at all.
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tp1040
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 6:05 pm

I am not going to argue the merits of new mothers piloting a plane. It is a personal decision if they are fit enough to fly.

But having to take a 10-20 minute break to pump while you are on duty, because you are very uncomfortable, seems unprofessional. Also, To endure the discomfort could be very distracting.


Seems like somebody was looking for a new issue to litigate.

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