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apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 7:38 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 49):

Seems like somebody was looking for a new issue to litigate.

It's not a new issue as what they are requesting has been the law for decades. It also isn't just a matter of comfort there are positive health benefits for the newborn and potential negative health benefits for the mother.
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bjorn14
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 7:53 pm

Somebody asked the question when do pregnant pilots get grounded? According to FAR 61.53 they don't they must self ground when they feel they can longer perform their duties or if a condition arises that may accelerate an early delivery date.
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tp1040
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 8:51 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 50):

It's not a new issue as what they are requesting has been the law for decades. It also isn't just a matter of comfort there are positive health benefits for the newborn and potential negative health benefits for the mother.

This is the first lawsuit that I have seen specifically filed on behalf of pilots and breastfeeding.

It also has nothing to do with the health of a baby. It is a given that mothers breastfeeding their baby is healthy, but males can't do it. (some women can't either)

If it was ALL about healthy normal babies, the mothers would not be away from their babies for days on end. I support a woman's choice to work and try to raise children, but to file a lawsuit over something like this strikes me some SJW on a mission.

It is about special accommodations made for pilots that choose to fly while breastfeeding. I am not sure what the airline is supposed to do. Special refrigeration? Special areas? Time off? Special schedules? Special uniforms? Free pumps? The women are not handicapped, they are breastfeeding.
 
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Revelation
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 52):
If it was ALL about healthy normal babies

Holy strawman argument, Batman! What he said was "there are positive health benefits for the newborn and potential negative health benefits for the mother", he never said it was "ALL about healthy normal babies". But, go ahead and set up your own argument so you can go ahead and knock it down.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 52):
the mothers would not be away from their babies for days on end

Maybe they don't want to be away from their babies for days on end but they realize if they want that baby to have things like health care and a college education they best make as much money as they can.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 52):
to file a lawsuit over something like this strikes me some SJW on a mission

Same constitution protects women's rights and gun owner's rights and treats corporations as citizens. Somehow I don't think you'd claim the NRA or Citizens United is a SJW, so let's calm down with the right wing rhetoric.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 52):
I am not sure what the airline is supposed to do.

Comply with the law. F9 claims they are doing so. It'll be interesting to see if the judge agrees or not.
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ssteve
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Thu May 12, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 52):
If it was ALL about healthy normal babies, the mothers would not be away from their babies for days on end. I support a woman's choice to work and try to raise children, but to file a lawsuit over something like this strikes me some SJW on a mission.

You don't know much about how much of a pain in the ass boobs it is to maintain supply, do you? Breastfeeding moms who are away from their little suckers have to pump or they get painfully engorged. It's a health issue for the mom. Even if they've decided it's too much effort and have weaned, there's a chance they may still have to pump for relief. Whoever's feeding the kid when they're gone is using a bottle, and it could be formula like you're insisting on. But either way, those glands need a workout.
 
ikramerica
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 12:15 am

Quoting dennypayne (Reply 34):
I think you're correct, but reading through the whole complaint it looks like the initial desired remedy was for additional time beyond the 120 days leave. Since Frontier refused that, this is trying to show what the alternative accomodations would need to be - in other words, a negotiation tactic that might get Frontier to realize the originally desired remedy would be a much easier pill to swallow.

How does that change the fact that the desire is to provide breast milk for at least the 1st year. 120 days, 180 days, whatever. It's not 360 days.

My wife had a lot of trouble and our son was bad at it, but we still tried to provide at least 1/3rd of his daily intake through age 1. It required a lot of pumping, freezing and rationing.

Seems like the pilots should have been pumping extra and freezing and making notes of dates and such to make sure you are always using the right milk. It's a process, but it's something you should be doing if you know you have this kind of situation.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 36):
I am trying to think of a private place on an aircraft, APART from the toilet and restroom.

Is the idea to have half the cockpit screened off?.


That was my point. The aircraft is not going to be redesigned nor is it under the purview of this law, and does F9 really have control of the airports they fly into?

They should have addressed the issues if they were "ignored" but if they did address them by saying that there is no reasonable accommodation then we shall see whether common sense prevails.
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enilria
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
If it's on the airplane it's comically impractical and potentially dangerous.

I think the real issue here is not with Frontier ... but with labour laws in the United States that do not mandate and require paid maternity leave like other countries.

Perhaps this is merely an attempt to force that, but F9 is the wrong carrier to push that with. They'd have a better shot with a legacy with better work rules to start with.

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 37):
Of course you can raise a baby on formula, even formula only, but the long- and short-term health effects of brest feeding are substantial (and well researched). With the pilot shortage, the industry needs all pilots available and this shouldn't be all that hard to accomplish.

At a hub it is pretty easy. At an outstation where there are no company employees, only contractors, it is pretty hard.
 
tp1040
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:07 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 53):
Same constitution protects women's rights and gun owner's rights and treats corporations as citizens. Somehow I don't think you'd claim the NRA or Citizens United is a SJW, so let's calm down with the right wing rhetoric.

I have never read anything in the constitution about the right to bare boobs. Gun rights strawman?, lol not even close.

FMLA was enacted in 2010, this added to the labor standards act of 1938. See section 7.

Nothing right wing about it.

Quoting ssteve (Reply 54):
Breastfeeding moms who are away from their little suckers have to pump or they get painfully engorged.

Exactly and I am quite familiar with the details of motherhood. That is the problem, a pilot getting up from the flight deck to pump is not flying the plane. A pilot in discomfort from the need to express, is not concentrating on flying a plane. Mother nature has her own timetable.



There are many jobs that women who happen to be mothers that require undivided attention. I hope none of you are having brain surgery and the surgeon says, "sorry, I am going to take my government allowed break to pump."

Quoting Revelation (Reply 53):

Comply with the law. F9 claims they are doing so

The 6 year old law states


a reasonable break time for an employee to express breast milk for her nursing child for 1 year after the child’s birth each time such employee has need to express the milk; and
a place, other than a bathroom, that is shielded from view and free from intrusion from coworkers and the public, which may be used by an employee to express breast milk.


Ok, no bathroom, no cockpit, must have a private place. Thus, the pilot must get up an leave the flight deck. (Pumps and storage containers are not proper flight deck equipment.) Should they have relief pilots while the person is out expressing. For those that don't know, it does take some time to express both teats.
 
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Revelation
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:22 am

Seems there are a few more articles on-line about this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...pilots_us_5733577ce4b096e9f093603c says:

Quote:

Kiedrowski, who was the first new mother to raise issues with Frontier, said the company wasn’t any more accommodating once the pilots returned to work.

Kiedrowski said she was called into an HR meeting with the chief pilot shortly after her return where she learned a male pilot had overheard she was planning to pump breastmilk for her son during her shift in the aircraft bathroom or at the airport.

“They weren’t comfortable with that,” Keidrowski said of the management’s response. “It had not come up before, and they had to figure out if it was something they could condone or not.”

Zielinski said in her complaint she faced similarly hostile responses. When she emailed higher-ups inquiring information on where she might pump at various airports, she was inadvertently copied on an email in which management accused Zielinski of “baiting” them and playing “games.”

Pumping breastmilk is a physiological need for new moms: Lactating mothers who don’t regularly pump can experience pain, infection of the breast tissue and a reduction or even complete cessation of milk production.

It seems both sides are pretty entrenched.

IMHO it seems like F9 will have to change and/or clarify some policies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shanno...lines-breastfeeding_b_9886566.html is an article written by Kiedrowski and explains her experiences quite well.

If you don't like lefty HuffPo, you can always go to Fox instead: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/0...ainst-airline-seen-as-advance.html

http://www.denverpost.com/business/c...nst-pregnant-breast-feeding-pilots discusses what the ACLU is looking for:

Quote:

The ACLU has suggested changes at Frontier, including allowing pregnant women to take a temporary alternative assignment before delivery; providing more than 120 days of unpaid leave; designating places in airports where pumping can occur; and allowing breast-feeding pilots to pump on the aircraft.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

IMHO F9 will lose in many ways if they aren't very careful.

[Edited 2016-05-12 18:23:52]
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:29 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 57):
I have never read anything in the constitution about the right to bare boobs.

Very mature response. If I may make a suggestion, grow up!

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 57):
Gun rights strawman?, lol not even close.

Another suggestion: concentrate more when you read.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 57):
Ok, no bathroom, no cockpit, must have a private place. Thus, the pilot must get up an leave the flight deck. (Pumps and storage containers are not proper flight deck equipment.) Should they have relief pilots while the person is out expressing. For those that don't know, it does take some time to express both teats.

Please let us know how you'd resolve this situation. It should provide for some cringe-worthy reading.
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tp1040
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:37 am

From the article on what they are demanding of Frontier:

Frontier to provide pilots the option of taking a temporary alternative assignment that would permit us to continue working during pregnancy or breastfeeding; allow nursing mothers additional unpaid parental leave after birth, to remove the worst barriers to breastfeeding; identify places where a breastfeeding pilot can pump at airports Frontier uses; and allow pilots who are breastfeeding to pump on aircraft if they need to.




Temporary alternative assignment ? They fly planes, what else are they going to do? Seems like an insult to work a gate
More unpaid leave? No problem, take a year off
identify places? Frontier doesn't own the airport, the pilots Frontier workplace is a cockpit or flight planning.
Pump on the plane? I covered that.
 
rbavfan
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:37 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 38):
A policy permitting a temporary delegation of pre- and post- flight duties to the other pilot when a pilot is breastfeeding and needs additional break time to pump breast milk

Does pre flight duties for a pilot not include going over all the charts & flight information for the upcoming flight. Sorry but you can not be excused from that duty and still legally fly the aircraft.

[Edited 2016-05-12 18:55:01]
 
tp1040
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:46 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
Very mature response. If I may make a suggestion, grow up!

Get a sense of humor, you could use one.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
Another suggestion: concentrate more when you read.

You started waving the constitution around somehow equating breastfeeding with gun rights. Maybe you should read what you write.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
Please let us know how you'd resolve this situation. It should provide for some cringe-worthy reading.

In case you haven't noticed that is the problem. I don't have a solution. Do you?
 
solarflyer22
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:57 am

35 years is barely enough for one of them to make it to retirement. I think this is one of those lets screw our boss lawsuits.
 
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Revelation
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 3:11 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 60):
Temporary alternative assignment ? They fly planes, what else are they going to do? Seems like an insult to work a gate

What would they do with a pilot who had a medical condition that didn't allow them to fly long trips but did allow them to work in or near the airport? Flight planning might be an option.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 60):
identify places? Frontier doesn't own the airport, the pilots Frontier workplace is a cockpit or flight planning.

My company doesn't own the building I work in but it must provide a "mother's room" which can be shared with other tenants.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 62):
You started waving the constitution around somehow equating breastfeeding with gun rights.

Actually I was pointing out that I didn't accuse you of making a gun rights strawman, sigh...

In any case, the 2nd and 14th Amendments have equal standing, no? Or are you one of those people who only refers to the Constitution when it helps your argument? Your SJW tag pretty much suggests this is the case.
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ssteve
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 3:15 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 57):
That is the problem, a pilot getting up from the flight deck to pump is not flying the plane. A pilot in discomfort from the need to express, is not concentrating on flying a plane. Mother nature has her own timetable.

This is just a strawman. No one's requesting accommodation during duty on the plane. The bus drivers here in Seattle recently raised hell because certain route terminals didn't have a place for them to piss between routes. They didn't ask for a lav in the bus... giving them time to take a whiz when not on the schedule is reasonable unless you're a crank looking under rocks for "SJWs"
 
rbavfan
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 3:30 am

How about limiting them to shorter flights until the year is up on breast feeding. People on here are talking how uncomfortable it gets. My old room mates daughter breast feed and went out all the time with friends. She said she had foot to pump before she went one night and her top was soaked. But she never said it hurt, was painful or uncomfortable if she forgot to pump and had to wait to do it.

Quoting ssteve (Reply 65):
No one's requesting accommodation during duty on the plane.
Quoting AAR90 (Reply 31):
d. Designation of adequate facilities (consisting of a convenient, private location other than a lavatory or restroom) for pumping, including on aircraft, during training and simulation exercises, and at outstations.

Did you read this taken directly from the complaint. What do you think this part (Private location other than a lavatory or restroom for pumping, Including on aircraft ) Means. It means while on duty on the plane!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 5:49 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 15):
'cos they are supposedly meant to be flying the plane.

So like a fighter pilot they piss in a bag  
Quoting b727fa (Reply 21):
In what decade?!?!

In this decade in the US since you don't have decent maternity leave provisions. Give the women 10-12 months maternity leave then pumping is no longer an issue.
 
bjorn14
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting ssteve (Reply 65):

For us neandrathals, What does "SWJ" stand for?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
wjcandee
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 12:02 pm

This is really about leave, not really about pumping. Pumping is just in there to get attention and so they can bludgeon the carrier with the allegation that it is "anti-women".

And the leave part of the suit is a little illogical:

(1) They are pissed because they are FORCED to take up SO MUCH time BEFORE delivery, but...

(2) They are pissed because they AREN'T ALLOWED to take ENOUGH time AFTER delivery.

This despite those time limits being negotiated and set in the Collective Bargaining Agreement between their union and Frontier.

So these union pilots don't like certain provisions of their negotiated employment contract (provisions negotiated specially for them), and want to break them based upon their status as women. They use the "anti-women" rallying cry as a way to accomplish this.

On the pumping:

(3) They essentially admit that the airline provides them, on the ground, a compliant location to pump.
 
apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 12:18 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 57):
I have never read anything in the constitution about the right to bare boobs. Gun rights strawman?, lol not even close.

Well besides the whole 14th amendment and equal protection.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 57):

FMLA was enacted in 2010, this added to the labor standards act of 1938. See section 7.

Except the Pregnancy Discrimination Act was enacted in 1973 and as recently clarified in UPS companies must make reasonable accommodations in job assignments.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 69):
(1) They are pissed because they are FORCED to take up SO MUCH time BEFORE delivery, but...

(2) They are pissed because they AREN'T ALLOWED to take ENOUGH time AFTER delivery.

You are missing the point. Before they deliver they would like an alternative assignment as option, after they deliver if they can't be accommodated breast feeding then they would like the same option, OR if that isn't available then take more unpaid leave.
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 68):
For us neandrathals, What does "SWJ" stand for?

SJW is an acronym for Social Justice Warrior. It's usually used by right wingers to describe people who use legal standards such as the Constitution to advocate in favor of a left wing topic such as women's rights, but never used by right wingers who use the same standards to advocate in favor of right wing topic such as gun owners rights, because, of course, in the right wing echo chamber everyone's in favor of gun owners rights anyways.
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nikeherc
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 12:57 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
Quote:

The ACLU has suggested changes at Frontier, including allowing pregnant women to take a temporary alternative assignment before delivery; providing more than 120 days of unpaid leave; designating places in airports where pumping can occur; and allowing breast-feeding pilots to pump on the aircraft.
Quoting ssteve (Reply 65):

This is just a strawman. No one's requesting accommodation during duty on the plane.

Apparently, at least the ACLU, is suggesting that there be an accommodation on the aircraft. I think that accommodations should be made where it is within reason. I don't even know what the longest segment is on F9, but I don't think they do a lot of transcontinental or international flying. Let the nursing pilots bid on the shorter flights with more turns, so they don't have to pump on the plane.

As far as letting the other pilots cover more of the on the ground activity, as long as it doesn't impair safety, ok. Of course I can just hear it now, "l know you did the the last walk-around, and now it's raining cats and dogs, but I need to pump. So be a dear and take this one, too."
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longhauler
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:40 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 69):
This is really about leave, not really about pumping. Pumping is just in there to get attention and so they can bludgeon the carrier with the allegation that it is "anti-women".

That's how I saw it as well. Right now "public breast feeding" is in vogue, and if one can use it to makes gains elsewhere, so be it. It makes some people uncomfortable, so they know bringing it up will make some uncomfortable. Clearly though, we are not talking about nursing when flying, but this is the closest they can come.

With regard to leave time ... where I fly, it is a medical issue. The company doctors decide for how long you can fly safely, when you are put on maternity leave. In Canada, paid leave is set by the Country, not the Collective Agreement. However, the Collective Agreement, does allow a certain amount of unpaid leave if so desired.

And get this ... if the mother does not use all of her time, she can allot it to her husband. Not as crazy as it sounds, four hands are better than two during the first month or so.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 70):
Before they deliver they would like an alternative assignment as option, after they deliver if they can't be accommodated breast feeding then they would like the same option, OR if that isn't available then take more unpaid leave.

What would you suggest a pilot do? And, for so short a time?
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tp1040
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:47 pm

A more accurate description of a SJW would be activists who are prone to engage in lengthy and hostile debates against others on a range of issues concerning social injustice, identity politics and political correctness. A social justice warrior uses overzealous and self-righteous rhetoric, as well as appealing to emotions over logic and reason.
 
apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 1:51 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 73):
What would you suggest a pilot do? And, for so short a time?

Customer Service? Stores, purchasing, FAA Compliance...
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spinkid
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 2:18 pm

How do F9 FA's deal with this issue? For that matter, FA's at any airline?

I'm sure this was an issue that came up in greater numbers for them first, since there are more female FA's and a greater total number of employees as FA's.
 
airtran737
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 73):

What would you suggest a pilot do? And, for so short a time?

There are plenty of jobs that can be done. Pilots lose their medicals all the time and work in the chief pilot's office, or training department until they are able to clear the issues up. These women could do the same.
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longhauler
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 6:43 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 75):
Customer Service? Stores, purchasing, FAA Compliance

A lot of this would require training ... and for what .... two months? Doesn't seem worth it.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 77):
Pilots lose their medicals all the time and work in the chief pilot's office, or training department until they are able to clear the issues up. These women could do the same.

This is normally longer term.

But another issue comes up. When on paid leave, it is assumed you are not making any income elsewhere. As a part of mat leave pay comes from the government, they have the right to, (and will) deduct any income you make during that period.
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nikeherc
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 6:56 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 78):
But another issue comes up. When on paid leave, it is assumed you are not making any income elsewhere. As a part of mat leave pay comes from the government, they have the right to, (and will) deduct any income you make during that period.

That may be true in Canada, but it is not so in the United States.
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longhauler
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:01 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 79):
That may be true in Canada, but it is not so in the United States.

Technically, in Canada a part of the mat leave pay is Government (Un)Employment Insurance. The rest is made up by the employer.

In Canada, if you are on Unemployment Insurance and earn money, you must declare that income. Is that not the same in the US? In other words, are you allowed to "supplement" your Unemployment Insurance with additional income?
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apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:04 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 78):
A lot of this would require training ... and for what .... two months? Doesn't seem worth it.

It doesn't matter if you don't deem it worth it, it's the law.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 78):
But another issue comes up. When on paid leave, it is assumed you are not making any income elsewhere. As a part of mat leave pay comes from the government, they have the right to, (and will) deduct any income you make during that period.

Working in another department isn't paid leave.
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longhauler
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:32 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 81):
It doesn't matter if you don't deem it worth it, it's the law.

It is not law that you work when on mat leave.

It would however, be up to the airline to decide if training you for 4 weeks for 4 weeks of work is worthwhile .. considering tying up training personnel and resources. And only if it is a part of the collective agreement whether or not one is required to work when on mat leave. But the "law" does not require that you work when on paid mat leave.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 81):
Working in another department isn't paid leave.

I think you missed my point. When working in another department, you are "paid". That pay has to be acknowledged. Why? ....

Because if you are on sick leave, then there really is no issue, as all pay comes from the employer. And it comes down to whether you are required to work when on sick leave ... and that is dictated by each company's collective agreement.

However, if you are on maternity leave (like we are discussing here), then a part of your pay comes from government employment insurance. And the government will deduct any income you make from your employment insurance while collecting it. It then would become very cumbersome to allocate from where your total income is generated.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
apfpilot
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 82):
It is not law that you work when on mat leave.

No one said that it is, however not providing accommodations or treating employees differently than because they are pregnant isn't against allow.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:51 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 82):

You do realize that the female pilots are on unpaid leave from the week 32 until they are aloud to return to work?
 
BobbyPSP
Posts: 345
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 7:54 pm

short term disability (under six months) , you cannot collect and still be legally employed. Period.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting BobbyPSP (Reply 85):
short term disability (under six months) , you cannot collect and still be legally employed. Period.

/

A system that does not account for pregnancies.
 
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longhauler
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 8:12 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 81):
it's the law.
Quoting apfpilot (Reply 83):
No one said that it is,

You did.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 84):
You do realize that the female pilots are on unpaid leave from the week 32 until they are allowed to return to work?

That was actually my point.

In most developed countries, women are on paid maternity leave for varying lengths of time. I am surprised it is not the case in the United States. So, my point is that instead of fighting for a place to express milk, why not fight for paid maternity leave?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
mjoelnir
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Fri May 13, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 87):
In most developed countries, women are on paid maternity leave for varying lengths of time. I am surprised it is not the case in the United States. So, my point is that instead of fighting for a place to express milk, why not fight for paid maternity leave?

Paid maternity leave seems to be futuristic or worse socialistic concept in the USA. Woman getting a bonus for carrying the children? the world would implode.

IMO the woman are asking for flexibility from F9. Being able to do some paid work while not aloud to fly and perhaps more flexibility about when they have to stop to fly before birth and start to work after birth.
And perhaps the possibility and accommodation for breast pumping are really not that great.
 
ubeema
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sat May 14, 2016 4:57 pm

It is highly unlikely this suit would have been filed had Frontier engaged the employees and proposed reasonable accommodations when they requested it. The article from OP does not tell us what exactly the 4 pilots have proposed, but they old saying stand "Failure to plan is Planning to fail." Frontier better figure out a longer paid parental leave proposal to make everyone happy or face the music.

I am not in the airline industry and I am probably oblivious to the challenges here, but my company out of the blue just increased paid parental leave from 12 to 16 weeks. Mothers especially are ecstatic, and it is the result of many feedbacks from employees. We work in a very nice building and there is a special room for new moms and moms to be, so pumping is not an issue. But I have seen my wife and pumping is not something you enjoy doing while in the work environment no matter how nice the setup is, nothing better than the privacy of the house.
 
AAR90
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sat May 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 91):
Could you perhaps show us that all airlines have the same policy.

Here is AA's:

Maternity Policy
A. A flight crewmember who becomes pregnant must immediately, on becoming aware of such pregnancy, provide AA with written notice. The notice will include a written statement from her doctor specifying the expected date of delivery and stating her ability to continue to fly or inability to fly due to her physical condition. The written notice will be given to her Chief Pilot.
B. A flight crewmember may be permitted to continue her job duties until the end of the second trimester of pregnancy (approximately 24 weeks) if she satisfies the following flight safety requirements:
1. The flight crewmember must provide AA with a written statement from her personal physician indicating whether, in their opinion, the crewmember’s pregnancy is a normal, doctor- supervised pregnancy and she is capable of safely performing her job duties.
2. The flight crewmember must remain under the continued care of a physician so long as she continues to fly while pregnant.
3. The flight crewmember must notify AA immediately of any change in her medical condition which might affect her ability to perform her duties.
C. For reasons of safety, AA may at any time, require a pregnant flight crewmember who continues to fly to submit to a medical examination by the AA Medical Department to determine her continued ability to perform her duties. In the event that the Medical Department finds that she is no longer able to perform her duties, she will be placed on Sick Leave (SL) or Sick Leave of Absence- Maternity (SLOA), whichever is applicable.
D. If, at any time during the first two trimesters of pregnancy, the flight crewmember’s personal physician determines that she is unable to perform her duties because of her condition or the medical treatment thereof, she will be placed on SL or SLOA, whichever is applicable. This decision will be reviewed and/or confirmed by AA Medical Department for final approval.
E. A pregnant flight crewmember will not be permitted to continue her job duties after a date 90 days prior to her expected date of delivery.
F. A flight crewmember is eligible for SL benefits for reasons of pregnancy, childbirth, or related medical conditions as described below:
1. A flight crewmember who has accrued SL will be eligible to be paid SL to the extent of her SL accrual, with corresponding deductions from such accrued SL until it is exhausted.
2. When accrued SL has been exhausted, the flight crewmember will be placed on SLOA.
3. When on SLOA, a flight crewmember is eligible for Group Life and Health Benefits as well as disability as provided in the Working Agreement.
G. SL and SLOA shall commence as described above and shall continue until the crewmember is no longer disabled. A maximum period of six weeks after birth will be allowed under normal circumstances.
H. Medical complications following the delivery which result in continuing disability shall be the only exception recognized that would permit the extension of a SLOA beyond six weeks after delivery.
I. Six weeks after birth, or prior to returning to duty, whichever is sooner, it will be the responsibility of the flight crewmember to make an appointment with the American Airlines Medical Department to obtain medical clearance for flight duty.
J. If the mother’s health permits her to return to work six weeks after delivery, but in the interests of the health of the child it is advisable that return to work be postponed, the SLOA may be converted to a Personal Leave. The provisions of Section 19 of the Working Agreement shall govern requests for a leave under this paragraph.
K. The flight crewmember’s personal physician must provide the American Airlines Medical Department with prompt written notice of the date of delivery or termination of the pregnancy in any other manner.
L. Prior to the expiration of a Personal Leave of Absence, SL, or SLOA, a flight crewmember must give the Company written notice of her intent to return to work and shall return to work on a date established by the Company. Failure to return to work on the date established shall be deemed a voluntary termination of employment.
M. A flight crewmember returning from leave must meet the Company’s current crewmember standards and qualifications requirements before being permitted to return to line status.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sat May 14, 2016 11:22 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 92):

It would be nice to know what SL and SLOA involves.
 
wjcandee
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sun May 15, 2016 12:22 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 92):
Here is AA's:

Like I said...similar. But the reality is that this is a matter of the CBA, as otherwise governed by medical and safety requirements, and can be very different across airlines. The issue of pumping is the headline issue, in there to change the ability to sue to do better than the CBA on leave.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 91):
Straight to right wing republican politics.

WTF? Nothing of the sort. As I said, I don't care myself. And I'm not a parent. So I really don't care. From your knee-jerk, straight-to-the-"hate speech" response, I'm guessing that discussing the actual constitutional issues with you would be fruitless, and doesn't matter anyway, since I don't care.

But I do understand why actual parents of teens, whether liberal, moderate or conservative, are going insane.

And the point is that if the media told the full story of what is really at issue, the public response would be different, as it would be here.
 
AAR90
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sun May 15, 2016 12:33 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 93):
It would be nice to know what SL and SLOA involves.

SL = Sick Leave. Indeterminate time frame. Removed from flying duty on a "day-to-day" basis (removed the day prior to start of an assigned trip).

SLOA = Sick Leave Of Absence. Long-term with a planned return date. Removed from flying duty on a "monthly" basis. Bid your monthly as normal, but immediately removed from all flying and the "bid line" is once again made available for somebody else to get it.

Pilots pay themselves for missed trips via the pilot's Sick Bank.

When your Sick Bank runs out and your SL/SLOA time becomes unpaid. My current Sick Bank balance has ~8 months of my average monthly flying. Can easily be extended to 1yr at minimum monthly guarantee pay rate.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sun May 15, 2016 10:32 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 94):
WTF? Nothing of the sort. As I said, I don't care myself. And I'm not a parent. So I really don't care. From your knee-jerk, straight-to-the-"hate speech" response, I'm guessing that discussing the actual constitutional issues with you would be fruitless, and doesn't matter anyway, since I don't care.

If you would not care why mentioning an issue that has nothing to do with maternity leave or breast pumping? It seems you just have to bring it up.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 95):
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 94):

So both at Frontier and AA female pilots get paid on maternity leave out of the sick bank while either on SL or SLOA?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sun May 15, 2016 1:00 pm

If female pilots are getting paid maternity leave out of some kind sick bank, where comes the argument from that Frontier pilots are on unpaid leave before and after the birth of their child as mentioned in the article?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sun May 15, 2016 3:16 pm

Quoting BobbyPSP (Reply 85):
short term disability (under six months) , you cannot collect and still be legally employed. Period.

Yes, you can remain employed; you just get removed from the active payroll during that time.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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ssteve
Posts: 1439
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RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Sun May 15, 2016 10:36 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 71):
SJW is an acronym for Social Justice Warrior. It's usually used by right wingers to describe people who use legal standards such as the Constitution to advocate in favor of a left wing topic such as women's rights, but never used by right wingers who use the same standards to advocate in favor of right wing topic such as gun owners rights, because, of course, in the right wing echo chamber everyone's in favor of gun owners rights anyways.

You ascribe way to much rationality to it. It's just an acronym which means "PC person," and one man's PC person is another man's person-with-backbone. "PC" being political correctness, of course. Like whining PC, whining SJW is just admitting you're too lazy to address the particular situation and you're just fine with the status quo. The SQWs hate the SJWs.
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Mon May 16, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 87):
You did.

I didn't say anything about them being paid (and neither did the pilots)
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
slider
Posts: 7640
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: EOE Complaint Filed Against F9 By 4 Female Pilots

Mon May 16, 2016 12:16 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
I'd be curious to know what those proposed remedies were.

Me too. If by law the lav is not acceptable, what is? Cockpit? Aft galley? How do you possibly have an accommodation for space on an aircraft?

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 31):
f. A policy permitting a temporary delegation of pre- and post- flight duties to the other pilot when a pilot is breastfeeding and needs additional break time to pump breast milk;

Since this is taken from the ACLU's filing, I'd say this could be a very slippery slope here--"accommodation" in the legal occupational sense means not changing the core requirements of the job. So what they're proposing is in fact a changing or delegation of actual job functions. I don't think that'll fly. I think most crewmembers would be amicable to helping a fellow pilot out, but pre and post flight checks also do not happen in a vacuum--there are two person checklists deliberately designed for verification and safety purposes. You CANNOT compromise that stuff.

Also, if the pilots are claiming there isn't time to pump, well, that's also a function of the job. Although I imagine a schedule/trip/pairing modification could be effected and that might be the solution, so that the ladies can pump whilst on the ground in between trips or something.

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