Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
deltadawg
Topic Author
Posts: 1014
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 7:15 am

Somewhat surprised to see that a post such as this has not been posted yet since DL placed their rather significant order. A couple of questions that interest me in the CSeries program?

a) With DL signing on as a large future operator will it open the door to other airlines and if so, who?
b) Will BBD increase production rate if they garner future orders similar to DL's? If so, how much can the Mirabel facility push out the door and how many orders are needed for BBD to start a second line?
c) Will future orders require BBD to usher in the suspected CS500?

Just my own .02 but the obvious short list of potential targets for BBD would be:
a) AA - obvious
b) AM - Aeromexico seems like a natural fit. Some of their 737-700's are approaching 15 years old and the CSeries could offer longer routes but seemingly a CS500 would be needed to match up with the current 738's in terms of capacity needs if they ever did do a one for one swap. Albeit, some of the 737's are only a few years old.
c) B6 - rumors still flying
d) IR - with Fokker 70/100 and MD-82's still active this could be a real possibility as long as Iran puts their new money into infrastructure instead of terrorism

Thanks.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 7:48 am

I think I asked this in a previous thead and admittedly I have very little knowledge of Hawaiian Airlines and so the suggestion may be crazy, but how old are their 717s? I realize fuel burn savings are not that important on interisland short haul, but the CSeries could replace them *and* add the tremendous flexibility to have long and thin TPAC routes to smaller West Coast airport, or from the smaller Hawaiian airports to LAX/SFO/etc, + routes to Pacific islands, places like Tahiti or American Samoa being well in range. The CSeries 100 has a real-world range of 3000+ miles (3100 nautical miles nominal range) and the 300 even more, which is enough to go as far as Salt Lake City, although it could take an elevation penalty there. The aircraft would also need ETOPS certification but I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem at all there. Maybe Hawaiian could get a sweet deal selling their 717s to Delta.

Otherwise I think the CSeries is a good fit as the 190 replacement for JetBlue, the arguments for it have been made in the thread to that effect and I agree with most of them.

It will be interesting for sure to see which major airline is next to order. My dream would be for a major British Airways order but I think they'll wait for an official launch for the eventual larger variants.

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
d) IR - with Fokker 70/100 and MD-82's still active this could be a real possibility as long as Iran puts their new money into infrastructure instead of terrorism

Geopolitics may prevent that from happening. Although with the recent government change in Canada the relationship may ease up, Canada's relationship with Iran is no better than America's. With the previous government, it was even worst and as hostile as Israel's relationship with that country. So while we should never say never, I think if Iran is looking at a 100-pax range aircraft, they'll be more than likely to go with Embraer over Bombardier.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:12 am

I don't think we can completely rule out UA just because of the recent 73G order. I think it's still very likely UA could order a new small aircraft so that it can also have a larger fleet of 76-seaters for UAX.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
User avatar
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:22 am

1) Lufthansa - once numbers from Swiss are solid, they will order some for themselves,
2) Austrian - part of LH Group, see above
3) SN Brussels - see above
4) American - they said they are looking at it, so there's the possibility
5) JetBlue - see above

Those five are on the top of my head. I'm sure there are others I could come up with...
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
DALCE
Posts: 1991
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:23 am

I could see FZ ordering the C-series to start longer and thinner lines ex DWC in the future, to both support their own Hub and to a lesser extend the EK hub in DWC.
Also the C-series would be a good fit for Aeroflot opening up more domestic option East-West. Local economics and Sanctions might be a hick up here.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,223,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
skyhawkmatthew
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:42 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 9:56 am

I think eventually we may see an order for the QF group.

Whether that ends up being QantasLink themselves, Network or Cobham, who knows – but those F100s (and eventually the 717s) will need replacing soon enough, and Qlink is already a fairly major BBD customer on the turboprop side. The downturn in the mining industry will probably slow down any near-term plans though, I suspect.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
User avatar
Paolo92
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:36 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 10:07 am

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
b) Will BBD increase production rate if they garner future orders similar to DL's? If so, how much can the Mirabel facility push out the door and how many orders are needed for BBD to start a second line?

Bombardier had disclosed in the initial plans (when they were still building the current CSeries FAL) that the currently active FAL has a peak output of 12 airframes per month. Although, if the market would respond well (hence big numbers in terms of orders) they would be willing to build the second line, reaching a peak of 20 airframes/month.
I think that we'll see most of the action at Farnborough this July. If the firm orderbook reaches significant numbers we may see Bombardier moving forward with that.
I could see the FAL expansion mainly related to the launch of the rumored CS500.
Although, IMHO Bombardier will focus on CS100 & 300 EIS first, before announcing the CS500.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 1):
I think I asked this in a previous thead and admittedly I have very little knowledge of Hawaiian Airlines and so the suggestion may be crazy, but how old are their 717s? I realize fuel burn savings are not that important on interisland short haul, but the CSeries could replace them *and* add the tremendous flexibility to have long and thin TPAC routes to smaller West Coast airport, or from the smaller Hawaiian airports to LAX/SFO/etc, + routes to Pacific islands, places like Tahiti or American Samoa being well in range. The CSeries 100 has a real-world range of 3000+ miles (3100 nautical miles nominal range) and the 300 even more, which is enough to go as far as Salt Lake City, although it could take an elevation penalty there. The aircraft would also need ETOPS certification but I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem at all there. Maybe Hawaiian could get a sweet deal selling their 717s to Delta.

It would surprise me if Bombardier's sales team had not approached HA yet. Indeed, the CS100/300 would be a great replacement for their 717 fleet. In terms of ETOPS, both CSeries variant will be ETOPS120 at EIS, while ETOPS180 will come approximately 1 year after EIS (old PR), although, with the delays the program incurred into, I could see ETOPS 180 coming much earlier than that.
This chart shows the CS100/300 range (3100nm + 3300nm) from HNL with shaded areas showing the ETOPS 120 area (light gray) and 180 (dark grey). Once ETOPS 180 is certified, that would slam open the door for HA's potential order.
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=3100nm%40HNL%0d%0a3300nm%40HNL&E=120&E=180&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=540x540&PM=*
Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
 
skyhawkmatthew
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:42 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 11:14 am

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 6):

It would surprise me if Bombardier's sales team had not approached HA yet. Indeed, the CS100/300 would be a great replacement for their 717 fleet.

HA will come down to the Cseries' engines' characteristics when it comes to short sectors and turnarounds. The reason 737-200s hung around on inter-island ops so long after the 737 classic and NG were introduced was due to issues with the CFM56 engines on these operations compared to the JT8D — apparently the BR715 on the 717 is much better in this respect, hence HA's penchant for 717s. As we know Airbus is having a hard time with rotor bowing issues on the A320neo, so it remains to be seen whether the Cseries will be well suited to inter-island operations.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8763
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 12:00 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 1):
I think I asked this in a previous thead and admittedly I have very little knowledge of Hawaiian Airlines and so the suggestion may be crazy, but how old are their 717s? I realize fuel burn savings are not that important on interisland short haul, but the CSeries could replace them *and* add the tremendous flexibility to have long and thin TPAC routes to smaller West Coast airport, or from the smaller Hawaiian airports to LAX/SFO/etc, + routes to Pacific islands, places like Tahiti or American Samoa being well in range.

HA is going to have A321NEOs for that. HA also needs to be concerned with how much it fragments its network (US-48 routes from OGG or KOA vs. hubbing to HNL and routing on A330s) and with levels of competition to HI. (WN could be disruptive if it chooses.)
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 12:30 pm

QantasLink likely also has serious interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QantasLink

[Edited 2016-05-12 05:30:42]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
queb
Posts: 1026
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 12:59 pm

"JetBlue, Bombardier Said to Resume Talks on C Series Order"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-to-resume-talks-on-c-series-order
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2545
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 1:16 pm

LX is the guinea pig for the LH group. If the CSeries is a knockout (or at minimum meets expectations) LH will come asking for a tad bit more CSeries aripanes. An order approaching 100 airplanes split among the group I estimate.

B6 & AA are the ones to watch. Both airlines could definitely use the capability of the Cseries is their networks. B6 has a growing cap between the E190 and A320. AA has an orphan fleet of only 20 E190s and no answer going forward regarding thier 100 seater airpane. I think B6 are the most likely to order.

HA like DL will run the 717s to the ground. I don't think they look elsewhere until 717s availability has completely dried up. (The 717s DL dosent have their hands on). If the PW1500G cannot meet the cooling requirement required by HA it is a non starter
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 1:22 pm

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 7):
As we know Airbus is having a hard time with rotor bowing issues on the A320neo, so it remains to be seen whether the Cseries will be well suited to inter-island operations.

I gather that is due to the mounting arrangement from engine to pylon.

The CSeries uses quite a different arrangement, thus should not have that problem.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20911
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 2:05 pm

Add IAG to the speculation.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 12):

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 7):
As we know Airbus is having a hard time with rotor bowing issues on the A320neo, so it remains to be seen whether the Cseries will be well suited to inter-island operations.

I gather that is due to the mounting arrangement from engine to pylon.

I suspect it is also due to the industry leading differential RPM/bearing velocity of the PW1100. There are reasons the PW1100 is more efficient than the smaller siblings, but that requires a different bearing/ shaft interface. While the mounting interface plays a role, I personally believe there are other design factors.

I speculate sticking with proven bearing designs is why the LEAP went with co-operation as the benefit of today's higher Mach# compressors and in particular turbines is more than contra-rotation's 2 to 3 percent benefit in fuel burn reduction. Higher Mach# ( which requires higher RPM and thus a more stressed bearing) is good for 3% in the compressor and 4%+ in the turbine. With CNCs, it can be a 6% benefit. Or... The less turbine cooling required, the greater the aerodynamic benefit of high Mach# gas flow through a Turbine. In a compressor, the higher the Mach#, the greater the benefit of scimitar blades too.

Lightsaber

Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 11):

LX is the guinea pig for the LH group. If the CSeries is a knockout (or at minimum meets expectations) LH will come asking for a tad bit more CSeries aripanes. An order approaching 100 airplanes split among the group I estimate.

LH group will be the 'canary in the coal mine.'. If expectations are exceeded, far more than a hundred. If just OK... say 50 more.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:19 pm

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 7):

If your going to note the 737-200's it might be nice to also note they were Aloha Airlines planes, not Hawaiian.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:24 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 8):
HA is going to have A321NEOs for that. HA also needs to be concerned with how much it fragments its network (US-48 routes from OGG or KOA vs.

If the heat issues can be corrected on the PW engine & could see some A319neo replacing 717 as well. It would give some needed capacity increase inter Island & allow ops to places like SNA (cannot use the A321), Bakersfield, Fresno & even Santa Barbara that cannot do well with the A321's size & capacity.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:26 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 8):
uel burn savings are not that important on interisland short haul

With the price of fuel there it is. Why do you think they went from 123 to128 seats on the 717's. more seats (needed on some flights) & lower fuel per passenger.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:30 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 12):
I gather that is due to the mounting arrangement from engine to pylon.

The CSeries uses quite a different arrangement, thus should not have that problem.

No its due to uneven cooling of the shaft. It stays hotter on top causing it to bend & rub till it cools down. If it cannot be fixed it would mean hawaiian would have to have aircraft sit to cool. That would mean an increase in airframes to cover the current operations. A huge cost increase.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:42 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I suspect it is also due to the industry leading differential RPM/bearing velocity of the PW1100. There are reasons the PW1100 is more efficient than the smaller siblings, but that requires a different bearing/ shaft interface. While the mounting interface plays a role, I personally believe there are other design factors.

Probably. It's never as simple as one factor.

They are strengthening the bearings on the 1100, although I assume that will come with associated increased friction (and local heat?).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):

I speculate sticking with proven bearing designs is why the LEAP went with co-operation as the benefit of today's higher Mach# compressors and in particular turbines is more than contra-rotation's 2 to 3 percent benefit in fuel burn reduction. Higher Mach# ( which requires higher RPM and thus a more stressed bearing) is good for 3% in the compressor and 4%+ in the turbine. With CNCs, it can be a 6% benefit. Or... The less turbine cooling required, the greater the aerodynamic benefit of high Mach# gas flow through a Turbine. In a compressor, the higher the Mach#, the greater the benefit of scimitar blades too.

Indeed. But a higher RPM on the LP shaft would benefit more from a gearbox too.

I had thought P&W were running a faster shaft than CFM? I guess this is not the case? [or is only for LP they run it faster - 'cos the gearbox allows them to]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20911
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 17):
That would mean an increase in airframes to cover the current operations. A huge cost increase.

No cost for less than 1 hour turn times. Pratt is just adding fan spinning, a la the CFM-56 that eliminates the issue. This is an easy fix for an issue that should have been found during engine certification, not for the hot takeoff test.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 17):
No its due to uneven cooling of the shaft. It stays hotter on top causing it to bend & rub till it cools down. If it cannot be fixed it would mean hawaiian would have to have aircraft sit to cool. That would mean an increase in airframes to cover the current operations. A huge cost increase.

Thats the simple explanation.


The shaft isn't bending through heat alone. Its bending through thermal and mechanical load. Different mounting points on different aircraft result in different levels of mechanical load. Hence why CSeries supposedly won't have the same problem.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:52 pm

Some thoughts:

-QF (as has already been mentioned): long segments over a sparsely populated country both within and ex-Australia that could benefit from higher frenquency that a small aircraft brings; same rationale as Air Canada but without the impetus that avoidance of an impending lawsuit would bring. Large & Loyal BBD customer on the Dash-8s, and the 717's time will eventually come up.
-LH group (already discussed): Swiss is the testbed. IMHO watch for follow-on orders to spread around the Group if EIS goes well.
-IAG (already discussed): I think it's a great fit for EI in particular. Lower volume, longer distance routes and a desire to up frequency while offering a mainline product and remaining reasonably competitive against LCCs. Similarly applies to BA and to a lesser extent IB.
-LO: although struggling, the short-haul fleet is a mishmash of 737 classics and Ejets. Also a solid BBD customer on the Q400 via EuroLOT. LOT owns a good chunk of the Ejets so that will delay any fleet evolution.
-NZ: Long distances overwater and smaller markets would make the aircraft a good fit. Although now they're big into A320s for this kind of mission so the C would be a subfleet. Too bad for BBD they didn't keep the Classics in service longer...
Africa (KE, ET, others?): Mainline product, long routes, lower volume flights, good field performance and apparently the GTF does well in harsh environments. Not sure about the immediate fleet requirements at each carrier, but an aircraft with the characteristics of the C would be a good fit.
China, inc.: Bit of a crapshoot but if BBD can figure out how to enter into this market (will the ARJ21 ever be written off?) beyond just China Express, it will obviously be a volume opportunity.
I'm not as up on the goings on in the Indian Subcontinent or Malaysian Peninsula as I once was, so I'll refrain from commenting there. Latin America is also a bit of a crapshoot (save perhaps AM) given the economic situation down there.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 6):
It would surprise me if Bombardier's sales team had not approached HA yet. Indeed, the CS100/300 would be a great replacement for their 717 fleet. In terms of ETOPS, both CSeries variant will be ETOPS120 at EIS, while ETOPS180 will come approximately 1 year after EIS (old PR), although, with the delays the program incurred into, I could see ETOPS 180 coming much earlier than that.
This chart shows the CS100/300 range (3100nm + 3300nm) from HNL with shaded areas showing the ETOPS 120 area (light gray) and 180 (dark grey). Once ETOPS 180 is certified, that would slam open the door for HA's potential order.

Hawaiian's issue is not fuel - its cycles. Their planes fly as many as a dozen 30 minute hops a day. Each cycle creates a beating on the airplane and its engines. That's why Aloha couldn't run 733's between the islands, and why they say there isn't currently a replacement out there for the 717's.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:06 pm

In Europe, the A320NEO will effectively be a 180 seat aircraft on legacies and 186 on LCCs (I shudder at the thought, but that is the state of things...). The A319NEO is unattractive in comparison, and will be a niche aircraft. That creates quite a huge gap between 100-seat RJ's and 180-seat A320NEOs, into which the CSeries fits nicely (and also to a lesser extent the E2). Surely, some EU airlines will want to plug that gap...   
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20911
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:28 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 18):
I had thought P&W were running a faster shaft than CFM? I guess this is not the case?

Both are faster (high and low) which puts the PW1100G far into new differential bearing speeds as effectively the two RPMs add for about 19k differential RPM vs. the Leaps 12k.

The CFM was much lower.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:42 pm

Gotcha.

Cheers!   


[By CFM, I meant Leap, not the 56]
 
User avatar
kaminari
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 10:23 pm

Add NK to the possibilities list. I don't have a source to link to, but.. I happened to be at a certain place at a certain time and well... was told not to say more. =)
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 10:46 pm

My guess would be a substantial order from LH for itself and all its subsidiary carriers, B6, possibly AA, numerous Chinese carriers along with a plant to assemble them, AS...the list could go on and on.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 1015
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 5):
I think eventually we may see an order for the QF group.

Whether that ends up being QantasLink themselves, Network or Cobham, who knows – but those F100s (and eventually the 717s) will need replacing soon enough, and Qlink is already a fairly major BBD customer on the turboprop side. The downturn in the mining industry will probably slow down any near-term plans though, I suspect.

The CSeries would be perfect for QF Group / NZ to start thin Trans-Tasman flights like CBR-AKL/WLG/CHC, HLZ-SYD/MEL, etc...
 
User avatar
Clipper101
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:44 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 10:58 pm

Sometime ago during its development I recall QR was interested in the CSeries but wanted to see it first in actual service before it shows any commitments, I wonder if Bombardier has approached them again
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Thu May 12, 2016 11:09 pm

Any airline in China might order?
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 1:51 am

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
as long as Iran puts their new money into infrastructure instead of terrorism

Oh the Georgia is strong in this Dawg. I have not seen any "terrorism" definitively linked to Iran in the past decade. I have seen ISIS killing people in Paris and Belgium. Resisting US/Saudi Arabian/Israel boneheaded foreign policy is also not terrorism.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 1):
may ease up, Canada's relationship with Iran is no better than America's.

Apparently last week they had "Iran accountability week" in Canada. I'm Iranian American and I wouldn't buy from Canada so I have hard time seeing them doing it. There is already Sukhoi, MRJ and Embraer but to Canada's credit they did send a delegation to Tehran and lifted some sanctions.
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Topic Author
Posts: 1014
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 3:59 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 31):
Oh the Georgia is strong in this Dawg. I have not seen any "terrorism" definitively linked to Iran in the past decade. I have seen ISIS killing people in Paris and Belgium. Resisting US/Saudi Arabian/Israel boneheaded foreign policy is also not terrorism.

I only say what is based on fact considering hezbollah is funded in large part by Iran and when hezbollah launches rockets into Jerusalem and Israel the remnants say "made in Iran" practically. Not too hard for the remnants to be identified.

And yes, the UGA is strong in this Dawg. Went to UGA, live in Athens, GA and bleed Red & Black!

Still, if Iran can resist the temptation to spend their new found money on terror then they will definitely need new aircraft soon and could place orders as soon as Farnborough I would think.

Qantas Link as mentioned should definitely be a good candidate as well. Long thin routes would seem to be a good fit.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 4:37 am

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 5):
Whether that ends up being QantasLink themselves, Network or Cobham, who knows – but those F100s (and eventually the 717s) will need replacing soon enough,

I dont know, but my guess is this is where those Macquarie birds are destined for.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 23):
Surely, some EU airlines will want to plug that gap

Would be great for many small EU carriers like Bulgaria, Adria, Croatia, Serbia, Luxair, TAROM, LOT, CSA etc

As well as the LH Group mentioned, I think SAS would also be a great candidate - long time MD operator, current BBD operator and operates the 736, 73G & 319.

Quoting wrongwayup (Reply 21):
-IAG (already discussed): I think it's a great fit for EI in particular. Lower volume, longer distance routes and a desire to up frequency while offering a mainline product and remaining reasonably competitive against LCCs. Similarly applies to BA and to a lesser extent IB.

I think it would be great at LGW for BA, but there is no history in investing in new metal at LGW. LCY could be interesting, but is there space? EI seems a good fit and dont forget IB Regional through Nostrum is a huge BBD client incl the CRX.

Quoting wrongwayup (Reply 21):
Africa (KE, ET, others?): Mainline product, long routes, lower volume flights, good field performance and apparently the GTF does well in harsh environments. Not sure about the immediate fleet requirements at each carrier, but an aircraft with the characteristics of the C would be a good fit.

Agree, though KQ dont have the cash and likewise SA, but I think ET could be a good fit and are also a BBD customer. Add Arik to the list too.

Others not mentioned I think are candidates if you look at their fleets and routes are LATAM, Garuda, Westjet, Avianca & COPA. AR if they ever get themselves cash postive.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
CANPILOT
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 5:39 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 33):
Add Arik to the list too.

Yes, as far as Africa goes, W3 might be a good candidate for a small order. They have 9 737-700s that could need replacing eventually and they already operate Bombardier CRJ (-900 and -1000) and the Q400. I read something about a billion dollar loan they secured last year and came across this article through a quick google search just now indicating that more money may be available for the airlines expansion. If anyone has more details regarding these loans and what the airline intends to buy with them, I would love to know, since very little public information is available.

http://guardian.ng/business-services...benefit-from-20b-afreximbank-loan/

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 33):
Others not mentioned I think are candidates if you look at their fleets and routes are LATAM, Garuda, Westjet, Avianca & COPA. AR if they ever get themselves cash postive.

Do you think Westjet will buy C Series after ordering the 737-7MAX?
 
columba
Posts: 5238
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 7:45 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 23):
n Europe, the A320NEO will effectively be a 180 seat aircraft on legacies and 186 on LCCs (I shudder at the thought, but that is the state of things...). The A319NEO is unattractive in comparison, and will be a niche aircraft. That creates quite a huge gap between 100-seat RJ's and 180-seat A320NEOs, into which the CSeries fits nicely (and also to a lesser extent the E2). Surely, some EU airlines will want to plug that gap...   

Agree, hardly any A319NEOs ordered by European airlines is an indication that the CSeries might fill that gap especially with LH Group.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13435
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 8:10 am

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 6):
This chart shows the CS100/300 range (3100nm + 3300nm) from HNL

Nice to see, but how useful is it really?

Arguably, everywhere west of DEN that can support a nonstop to Hawaii, already has one... hard pressed to think of many viable markets that don't, or won't soon.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 9:29 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 36):
that can support a nonstop to Hawaii

What the CSeries proposes to do is serve long and thin markets that *don't* currently support a nonstop, but could potentially do so with an economical 110-130 pax aircraft. Specially, places like Long Beach, Burbank, etc, that serve significant populations but where pax are forced to drive to LAX if they want to fly to Hawaii. It could also easily open up overdue markets like SLC, YVR, and ANC, where Hawaiian competitors are the only ones flying, although the A321 they're expecting could probably do that as well.

Alternatively (or additionally) it could also serve some of the larger West Coast markets from the other islands, which I believe is not something Hawaiian currently does, and connect more Pacific islands to Honolulu. Hawaii already functions as sort of a hub and is the only gateway to places like American Samoa--with the CSeries it could do so to more places (Tahiti, Nauru, etc) and with better frequency.
 
voodoo
Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 12:37 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):

Add IAG to the speculation.

London City has just been freed for expansion by the new mayor.......

http://next.ft.com/content/e27a38ee-16c8-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 3:30 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 33):
I dont know, but my guess is this is where those Macquarie birds are destined for.

Not at the moment - the parent companies have a principal place of business in the same city (Sydney) but that's it, for now...
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 7:03 pm

Hitler reacts to Delta's Bombardier CSeries order . funny..

http://youtu.be/ul7KVapsJO4
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 7:19 pm

In the U.S., it will be interesting to see what AA and B6 will do. Both airlines have the E190, and both have expressed their concerns about the type.

AA Vice President of Flight Service Hector Adler has stated that AA plans to withdraw their 20 E190s from the fleet by 2019 (along with the A330-300s and additional 767-300ERs.)

AA would have nothing in between the Compass/Envoy/Republic E175s and the A319s. Perhaps a nice CS100/300 order there.

As for B6, the C Series can really do wonders for them, seeing as they are not happy with their E190s, and their A320/21neos on order are PW powered. Perhaps both the CS100 and CS300 could be used to not only replace the E190s, but older A320s.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Topic Author
Posts: 1014
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 7:56 pm

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 40):
Hitler reacts to Delta's Bombardier CSeries order . funny..

http://youtu.be/ul7KVapsJO4

Funny indeed. Time for a 797........perhaps Farnborough!?
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
Prost
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Fri May 13, 2016 8:21 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 37):
What the CSeries proposes to do is serve long and thin markets that *don't* currently support a nonstop, but could potentially do so with an economical 110-130 pax aircraft. Specially, places like Long Beach, Burbank, etc, that serve significant populations but where pax are forced to drive to LAX if they want to fly to Hawaii. It could also easily open up overdue markets like SLC, YVR, and ANC, where Hawaiian competitors are the only ones flying, although the A321 they're expecting could probably do that as well.

I believe there is only so much fragmentation the markets can handle. At some point in time if every 100,000-300,000 population center has service to Hawaii, the main services also suffer.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Sat May 14, 2016 4:29 am

Quoting wrongwayup (Reply 39):
Not at the moment

Isnt some of the current fleet with Macquarie? One would assume they ordered with a customer or two in mind.

Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 34):
Do you think Westjet will buy C Series after ordering the 737-7MAX?

I dont know if they will take the 7, I believe the order is totally flexible. All recent deliveries have been 800's and 700's are going back to the lessors (and onwards to WN). The 600's will stay. I personally think they would be better off with MAX 8's, upgauge to some -9's for trunk routes and CUN, PVR etc and put in the CS.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Topic Author
Posts: 1014
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Sat May 14, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 44):
Quoting CANPILOT (Reply 34):
Do you think Westjet will buy C Series after ordering the 737-7MAX?

I dont know if they will take the 7, I believe the order is totally flexible. All recent deliveries have been 800's and 700's are going back to the lessors (and onwards to WN). The 600's will stay.

While I could see a case being made for the CSeries with WS it just seems that they're committed to the 737 and Boeing. Also, if WS's TATL routes work out and become permanent it seems like they would be in the market for some B787's or A350's in the very near future. If WS were dump part of the 737 fleet in favor of the CSeries just seems like it could sour relations between WS and Boeing.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Sat May 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Regarding the 40x CS300 Republic order, we all know that's not going to happen.

How easy would it be for AA to acquire that order?
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
zkncj
Posts: 3975
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Sat May 14, 2016 7:19 pm

Quoting wrongwayup (Reply 21):
-NZ: Long distances overwater and smaller markets would make the aircraft a good fit. Although now they're big into A320s for this kind of mission so the C would be a subfleet. Too bad for BBD they didn't keep the Classics in service longer...

Intentional changed from 737 to A320 in 2005, it was for Domestic that the newer 737s stayed around until 2015.

They now operate to A320 Fleets, Regional Fleet (Aus/Pacific) which are being replacement with 321/320NEO from next year and the Domestic Fleet A320CEO (Sharklets).

International - 168Y
Domestic - 171Y

The C Series would be to small for most Pacific Island markets that NZ serves, and there isn't really an additional markets wroth serving from AKL.

A320s also can take cargo on palets/cans, something the C Serries Can't.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 28):
The CSeries would be perfect for QF Group / NZ to start thin Trans-Tasman flights like CBR-AKL/WLG/CHC, HLZ-SYD/MEL, etc...

Problem being that NZ isn't into thin flights, there up sizing most routes or they get cut.

HLZ-SYD/MEL - last time that was tired averaged 30 passengers.
 
MANYUL
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:32 pm

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Sat May 14, 2016 8:11 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 46):
Regarding the 40x CS300 Republic order, we all know that's not going to happen.

How easy would it be for AA to acquire that order?

I thought DL had acquired the Republic Order?
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

RE: CSeries - Which Airlines Will Order Next?

Sun May 15, 2016 7:57 pm

I'm hoping for WF. They've been looking for a larger aircraft than the Dash-8/Q400 series they're currently flying. They have a very long standing relationship with DeHavilland Canada Bombardier and could definately negotiate a good deal if they tried. The CS100 would be perfect for them with it's good short field performance. Widerøe operates both short and medium length sectors domestically and to/from the UK. They're starting OSL-TOS with the Q400 shortly, which is a 605 nm sector which would be perfect for the C-Series. It would open up a lot of new opportunities for them.

(And btw, the new adds on this website are incredibly annoying, moving the entire forum page downwards and playing loud sounds every time you open the page..)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos