na
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First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 1:13 pm

According to the publiced fleet planning Emirates is going to retire its first 77W(s) this year. Which plane(s) will it be? The oldest are 6 frames owned by Gecas and delivered in 2005: A6-EBB, -EBC, -EBE, -EBG, -EBI, and -EBJ. 3 of the same year owned by AerCap: A6-EBA, -EBF and EBH. And one owned by ALC: A6-EBD.

Or will it be one from 2006 on a 10-year-lease?
 
jfk777
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 2:47 pm

2016 & 17 will be interesting to see how the 77W used market develops as well as the A380 used market.
 
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Stitch
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 2:52 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
2016 & 17 will be interesting to see how the 77W used market develops...

If fuel stays cheap, it might very well be strong in terms of demand since the plane is a performer and is still pretty efficient, overall.

Deeper in, pricing could be an issue as Boeing will be trying to fill 2018-2019 slots as they prepare to transition over to the 777X.
 
DeltaRules
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 2:55 pm

I came into this thread expecting Emirates to be the one doing the retiring and, sure enough.

Is this just clearing planes off leases or a refresh because 10 years is too old for the UAE?
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Stitch
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 3):
Is this just clearing planes off leases or a refresh because 10 years is too old for the UAE?

The desert environment, while nice for storing a plane, is likely not so nice for operating one. Also, some EK 777-300ERs are used for regional missions, so they could be wracking up the hours and the cycles and therefore are a candidate for retirement.
 
na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 3:23 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 3):
Is this just clearing planes off leases or a refresh because 10 years is too old for the UAE?

According what I have read most 77Ws EK still has on order will replace older frames from the end of this year on.
 
N1120A
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 4:12 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Also, some EK 777-300ERs are used for regional missions, so they could be wracking up the hours and the cycles and therefore are a candidate for retirement.

Might be more cycles than hours. Those would be good candidates to go to an airline that is going to swap them into doing only long runs.
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na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 5:06 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
Might be more cycles than hours. Those would be good candidates to go to an airline that is going to swap them into doing only long runs.

Certainly a better idea for any 77W operator replacing older 772s/773s or needing a few more frames to bridge the gap to the 2020s 77X/A3510 or A380neo rather than ordering new 77Ws now which will be old tech and suffer high depreciation in 10 years. But who could that be in a time when (nearly) everyone in question still has plenty enough new planes on order?
 
flyingcello
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 6:12 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
Might be more cycles than hours. Those would be good candidates to go to an airline that is going to swap them into doing only long runs.

Mmm...like BA?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 6:53 pm

Wow...
EK will retire all 77E, A332 and A343 in 2016.
The 773s will start retirement in 2016

Now the first 77W will roll out of EK's fleet.

I'm curious which will be first and why.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
2016 & 17 will be interesting to see how the 77W used market develops as well as the A380 used market.

The question is the value of the parts... we could see a few scrapped before prices settle low enough for operators operate these as used examples.

Quoting flyingcello (Reply 8):
Mmm...like BA?

Or DL ! Let the speculation begin.

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KaiTak747
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 8:43 pm

Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

I understand that by taking new frames they will save on mx, fuel and have the bonus of increased reliability, but surely the fixed costs of new 777Ws outweigh these savings? Especially in a low cost fuel environment.

Also strange how airlines have totally different strategies in terms of how long they operate their aircraft for. BA, DL, LH will fly aircraft until their wings practically fall off.
 
tortugamon
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Thu May 12, 2016 8:59 pm

Returned to leasing company does not mean retirement. I do not believe that we yet know if it will end up in the desert.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

It could be in a lease contract is due to be returned to leasing company so they can find another home. The longer the first operator uses the aircraft the less the re-sale value to the lessor.

Efficiency and reliability of newer aircraft can outweigh the costs of newer aircraft.

tortugamon
 
RickNRoll
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 1:50 am

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
I understand that by taking new frames they will save on mx, fuel and have the bonus of increased reliability, but surely the fixed costs of new 777Ws outweigh these savings? Especially in a low cost fuel environment.

If you are leasing the fixed costs are much less than buying. The fixed costs are the leasing companies problem.
 
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reffado
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 2:25 am

I'd say there is some chance these birds find themselves a home in South America, but seeing as the economy there isn't in a great place, and 77Ws are too much capacity for the likes of AR's A340 routes, I imagine these frames will live again somewhere in Asia. If they live again at all.
 
tullamarine
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 3:02 am

It will be interesting to see what sort of market exists for these aircraft. EK works its fleet pretty hard and VA, when they picked up some ex-EK A332s to commence its trans-continental services, where known to be dissatisfied with the state of the aircraft upon receipt and happy to see the back of them at the end of the lease term.
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aa777lvr
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 3:17 am

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Also strange how airlines have totally different strategies in terms of how long they operate their aircraft for. BA, DL, LH will fly aircraft until their wings practically fall off.

These airlines have fantastic engineering/TechOps staff so that these aircraft have the longevity they deserve while in operation. I can attest that the folks at DL Tech Ops are top notch. I have no qualms at all about stepping foot on one of our aircraft, no matter it's age.

AA777LVR
 
JayJ
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 5:03 am

The oldest (77W) EK frames are the A6-EM* series. I reckon A6-EMM will be the first (-300) 77W to go. These are 1999 build onwards, with some on lease.

The 777s before A6-EMM are of course the 777-200s A6-EMG - A6-EML. The 777-200LRs will be unaffected.

Obviously with such a big 777-300ER fleet and network, EK utilise their fleet well. If you look at their fleet 777W usagte, a lot of the time the A6-EM* 777Ws get put on regional routes flight times within 4-5 hours or less - such as Kuwait, Bahrain, various Indian destinations and sometimes Pakistan too. Of course there are times when these vary with 777-200s and A330s as well. They do switch between newer 777-300ERs too.

[Edited 2016-05-12 22:12:44]

[Edited 2016-05-12 22:14:00]
 
HB-IWC
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 5:06 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
EK will retire all 77E, A332 and A343 in 2016.

Only 9 out of 29 A332s and 4 out of 8 A343s are left. All 6 B77E and all 12 B773A remain active, while the 3 B772As have already left.
 
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LTU330
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting JayJ (Reply 16):

The A6-EM* batch are not 777-300ERs. They are just -300s with Rolls Royce Engines. The thread relates to the 77Ws which have the GE90s and a much longer range.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):

If fuel stays cheap, it might very well be strong in terms of demand since the plane is a performer and is still pretty efficient, overall.

This is starting to feel like when the first 744s were being retired. I remember when the 744 and then the 77W were the bees knees of modernity and efficiency. And now the 77W has reached her peak and will climb no higher.

Quoting AA777LVR (Reply 15):

These airlines have fantastic engineering/TechOps staff so that these aircraft have the longevity they deserve while in operation. I can attest that the folks at DL Tech Ops are top notch. I have no qualms at all about stepping foot on one of our aircraft, no matter it's age.

Amen. I have flown on some OLD DL aircraft. In 2010 I flew on a 1984 757 (L-NW). But the only way I would have known was because I looked up the reg.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

Two possibilities: 1) EK can get a very nice price for a well-maintained 11yo aircraft. Many airlines like EK and SQ maintain very young fleets so that they can maximize low operations costs while recouping capital costs. 2) If EK pays a flat leasing rate and doesn't own the aircraft, it behooves them to utilize their fleet well and ensure that it's as young and efficient as possible.

[Edited 2016-05-12 22:27:52]
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TC957
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 6:56 am

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

As has already been mentioned, they have a tough life working in a high-temperature desert environment and doing many short-haul sectors.
At that age and likely flying hours, I'd imagine they'd be coming up to their second major D check and the bean-counters at EK and the leasing companies may decide the frames are worth more in parts than whole.
As the world's 77W fleet ages, so demand for parts will increase.
 
zkncj
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 7:11 am

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

Not uncommon for capital rich airlines, NZ is replacing its 2004-2007 A320s from next year onwards with A320NEOs. Its more about being able to keep up with the latest tech, and through that make savings.

For example an 2016 77W is going to be cheaper to run than an 2005 model, which has had wear and tear along with being an early model.
 
na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 9:42 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
EK will retire all 77E, A332 and A343 in 2016.
The 773s will start retirement in 2016

Now the first 77W will roll out of EK's fleet.

The last A343 will leave in 2017 as much as I know.
I expect that most of the EK planes being retired this year will end up at various scrapyards. A340s, 773s and 772s built in the 90s have become very undesirable airplanes these days.
 
md11sdf
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 10:00 am

This behavior is nothing new....
Remember Singapore Airlines back in the late 1980's/early 90's? They were 'retiring' and replacing FIVE year old frames!
I would think these 77W's would be an ideal candidate for freighter conversion, to replace (GASP!!) MD-11's at UPS.
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Luxair
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 10:04 am

This would be the perfect plane for PY, wouldn't it? I will call them   Seriously, they could better dump their A343 and swap to this beast! They need the cargo hold anyway and selling more seats at a lower fare would'nt hurt them either.

Luxair

[Edited 2016-05-13 03:22:06]
 
AirbusA6
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 10:14 am

With the A330, recent A330-300s are far more capable than the first ones, while with the 787 and A380 the first planes were flawed, I'm not aware of any major changes to the 77Ws since the early birds?
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Lentini2001
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 10:58 am

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

Because maybe they only have an 11 year lease on them?

Nothing to do with the age of the plane and its effectivness.
 
na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 11:18 am

One has to think that in the next ten years EK alone will retire 100 77Ws, or even more.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 11:26 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
Quoting flyingcello (Reply 8):
Mmm...like BA?

Or DL ! Let the speculation begin.

Hmm...with A33Ns making their way to the fleet I'd be hesitant to put Delta in this camp. Especially with A350s and 787s also on the way.

If UA is impressed enough, I could see it taking a few. And with AA having ordered brand new ones I don't think AA will top off its order...so my bet is on UA.
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mjoelnir
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 11:49 am

Quoting JayJ (Reply 16):
The oldest (77W) EK frames are the A6-EM* series. I reckon A6-EMM will be the first (-300) 77W to go. These are 1999 build onwards, with some on lease.

The 777s before A6-EMM are of course the 777-200s A6-EMG - A6-EML. The 777-200LRs will be unaffected.

The A6-EMM to A6-EMX are all 777-300 non ER frames youngest is A6-EMX l/n 444, first flight 2003. They will all be gone by end of 2017.

The 777-300ER (77W) start at A6-EBA l/N 506, first flight 2005. I assume a frame to be retired from that group must be a special case. I would have expected those retirements to start after all 777-300 non ER would have been gone.
 
na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 12:15 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 29):
The 777-300ER (77W) start at A6-EBA l/N 506, first flight 2005. I assume a frame to be retired from that group must be a special case. I would have expected those retirements to start after all 777-300 non ER would have been gone.

Why? EK has plenty new 77Ws on order to replace older frames, so its best to end the lease contract on these 10-12 year old ones when they are due. Contracts on 773 vs 77W are apparently overlapping, and one or two years is a rather short transition phase. Also please dont forget that some new A380s will take over routes so far served by 777s.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Quoting na (Reply 30):
Why? EK has plenty new 77Ws on order to replace older frames, so its best to end the lease contract on these 10-12 year old ones when they are due. Contracts on 773 vs 77W are apparently overlapping, and one or two years is a rather short transition phase. Also please dont forget that some new A380s will take over routes so far served by 777s.

Because it hits exactly one out of several frames. There were 10 delivered in 2005, sometimes two in the same month. They seem all to be on their second lease, all reconfigured between end of 2010 and 2013.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Please can someone explain the rationale behind EK returning 11 year old aircraft.

The more intense the utilization of an aircraft, the earlier the economic retirement age. Airlines that park their aircraft for hours pay the same fixed costs, but fewer hours per year of variable costs (fuel, maintenance). EK flies intensely and thus the high number of hours per year per airframe forces early replacement to keep down variable costs.

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na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 12:39 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 31):
Because it hits exactly one out of several frames. There were 10 delivered in 2005, sometimes two in the same month. They seem all to be on their second lease, all reconfigured between end of 2010 and 2013.

For one its not just one 77W that is being returned to lessor. Secondly most lease contracts for new planes are 10-12 years, and none of the aircraft in question have yet reached 12 years, so very likely none will be on a second lease contract yet.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 1:01 pm

Quoting na (Reply 33):
For one its not just one 77W that is being returned to lessor.

It is only one this year, as we speak of 77W or better 777-300ER. The other 777 being retired this year are either 772 or 773 with some 773 being retired in 2017.
 
na
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 34):
It is only one this year, as we speak of 77W or better 777-300ER. The other 777 being retired this year are either 772 or 773 with some 773 being retired in 2017.

It takes one to make a start, and it will be later this year, with other frames following a few months later.
Maybe all other 2005 frames are on 12 year leases, which makes me guess that A6-EBD is the first to retire as its the single aircraft leased from ALC.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: First 77W Retirement

Fri May 13, 2016 5:23 pm

The flood of EK 777s hitting the resale market is fascinating. How much of this is game theory on EK's part. I speculate that lease extension rates are not to EK's liking. If they make it clear the 777s are going, I'm sure the offered rates much better than today. After a dozen 77Ws are scrapped, the scrap value will drop and thus we might see some circa 2007 on 77W frames kept for longer.

Quoting na (Reply 35):
Maybe all other 2005 frames are on 12 year leases, which makes me guess that A6-EBD is the first to retire as its the single aircraft leased from ALC.

Good theory. It makes sense. I really wonder on the future of these frames...

Lightsaber
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