Air India To Commence Ahmedabad-London-Newark

atal17 · Sat May 14, 2016 6:26 am

Air India to commence Ahmedabad-London Heathrow-Newark effective 15 August.

AI171 AMD0500 - 1015LHR1230 - 1500EWR 788 135

AI172 EWR0020 - 1205LHR1400 - 0330+1AMD 788 246

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...August-15/articleshow/52264280.cms

Bookings for the service are open!

I, personally, did not see this coming. With this, Air India will return to LHR-NYC after a gap of 5 - 6 years...

Pellegrine · Sat May 14, 2016 6:30 am

Didn't they do Ahmedabad-London before or was that Kingfisher with the A332?

Ammad · Sat May 14, 2016 6:33 am

AI171 AMD0500 - 1015LHR1230 - 1500EWR 788 135

AI172 EWR0020 - 1205LHR1400 - 0330+1AMD 788 246

Aircraft will be sitting Idle at EWR for 9 hour and twenty minutes. Is this normal?

atal17 · Sat May 14, 2016 6:40 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):

Didn't they do Ahmedabad-London before or was that Kingfisher with the A332

Nope, erstwhile IT just did BLR/BOM/DEL-LHR. It was 9W that attempted AMD-LHR sometime in 2007, but quit it in a few months.

Quoting Ammad (Reply 2):

Aircraft will be sitting Idle at EWR for 9 hour and twenty minutes. Is this normal?

Has mainly to do with slots at LHR, and a/c availability at AMD/BOM.

theginge · Sat May 14, 2016 6:43 am

Quoting Ammad (Reply 2):
Aircraft will be sitting Idle at EWR for 9 hour and twenty minutes. Is this normal?

Yes plenty of aircraft sit idle during the day on the US East Coast as they often get there too early to then fly back to Europe straight away.

kaitak · Sat May 14, 2016 6:59 am

Quoting theginge (Reply 4):
Yes plenty of aircraft sit idle during the day on the US East Coast as they often get there too early to then fly back to Europe straight away.

In this case, I'd say it probably has more to do with when slots are available at LHR. The return arrival landing is at 12.05, so the EWR departure has to be timed so it can arrive around then.

Presumably AI still has its traffic rights between London and the US?

atal17 · Sat May 14, 2016 7:19 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):

Yes, AI has 5th freedoms on LHR-EWR. On another note, AI will reduce DEL-LHR to 2 daily, and also add a standalone AMD-LHR.

AI171 AMD0440 - 0955LHR 788 7

AI172 LHR1235 - 0205+1AMD 788 7

Thanks to airlineroute for pointing out the new changes!

Someone83 · Sat May 14, 2016 7:32 am

How is the timing of this and possibilities for connections at LHR and their existing DEL-LHR and BOM-LHR flights onwards to EWR?

atal17 · Sat May 14, 2016 7:39 am

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 7):

How is the timing of this and possibilities for connections at LHR and their existing DEL-LHR and BOM-LHR flights onwards to EWR?

I doubt they're focusing on LHR-EWR specifically feeding onward to BOM/DEL-LHR. For one, BOM-EWR already has a nonstop B77W service, and two, DEL-EWR can be sold via BOM (with pax having to clear immigration and customs at DEL itself)

Besides, with the cancellation of AI111/112 DEL-LHR-DEL, that avenue is effectively closed.

The main purpose of this flight will be to connect AMD to LHR/EWR (presumably replacing the existing 1-stop, same plane services via BOM)

Ytraveller · Sat May 14, 2016 1:32 pm

How interesting... Was not expecting AI's return to one stops via Europe. Congrats to AMD for getting a nonstop to LHR over the 'direct' flight that started in December!

I wish AI would show the south some love.

Anyways this brings 6 cities in India nonstop service to LHR:

Delhi - AI, 9W, BA, VS
Mumbai - AI, 9W, BA
Bangalore - BA
Chennai - BA
Hyderabad - BA
Ahmedabad - AI

DolphinAir747 · Sat May 14, 2016 2:07 pm

Interesting. The EWR area has a lot of people from AMD but this seems redundant given that EWR-BOM-AMD is already a single flight number on AI no?

DolphinAir747 · Sat May 14, 2016 2:12 pm

Where are the bookings open? AI website only or aggregator sites too?

B747forever · Sat May 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Always good with a variation of carriers on LON-NYC now that KU has stopped flying the route.

cedarjet · Sat May 14, 2016 2:34 pm

Timings out of EWR for LHR are fantastic, the later you leave, the closer to bedtime you land. Worst thing is a short redeye (six hours in the air = lucky to get 2h sleep, what with dinner service after takeoff taking usually ninety minutes or so, and a muffin arrival preparations taking at least an hour before landing) that lands at dawn, SUCH a long time to stay awake OR you go to bed in the daytime and it's hard to sleep in the evening, you're awake half the night. With AI in Star Alliance I will consider this for LON-NYC although not in Y obviously as the seats on the 787 are too narrow. But in business, definitely.

MaverickM11 · Sat May 14, 2016 2:43 pm

Terrible. This has politics written all over it. One step forward, two steps back.

Ytraveller · Sat May 14, 2016 2:52 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 10):
The EWR area has a lot of people from AMD but this seems redundant given that EWR-BOM-AMD is already a single flight number on AI no?

That's what I thought too, I'm guessing the AMD tag on will end.

lightsaber · Sat May 14, 2016 3:26 pm

Will AI 'scissor hub' at LHR? This is a serious question for a few flights feeding each other two ways would dramatically improve yield.

Lightsaber

ZeeZoo · Sat May 14, 2016 4:14 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 12):
Always good with a variation of carriers on LON-NYC now that KU has stopped flying the route.

Have they? 777 was off to NYC just today. Other than the British/American carriers, who else flies from London to NYC? El Al and Kuwait?

Ytraveller · Sat May 14, 2016 4:30 pm

Quoting ZeeZoo (Reply 17):
Have they? 777 was off to NYC just today. Other than the British/American carriers, who else flies from London to NYC? El Al and Kuwait?

They don't have traffic rights anymore on LHR-JFK. It's all continuing pax from KWI.

atal17 · Sat May 14, 2016 4:36 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):

Please read my reply #8. There is no need for BOM pax to fly via LHR since AI will begin to dedicate the EWR service to BOM (the tag will likely remain for a while until the runway closure at Ahmedabad). Neither will DEL-EWR pax be routed through LHR since the only DEL-LHR flight that would've connected nicely (AI115/116, is being cancelled to make way for the new AMD-LHR-EWR, it is unlikely that they"ll pursue fhat option. Besides, the only other routing that AI would sell between DEL & EWR is its own via BOM (AI102 DEL-BOM, AI191 BOM-EWR & AI144 EWR-BOM, AI101 BOM-DEL).

Another thing, because of AI115/116's cancellation, a 77L is likely to be freed up. This freed up a/c might commence the much rumored Delhi-Washington DC. Its likely that the announcement will be made in June, during the PM's visit to DC.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

There is no shred of doubt about it. But still, I'll remain slightly optimistic. Since AI's apparently tasted success in San Francisco (they apparently command a healthy load and a decent premium on the routes), I think I'm inclined to tone my skepticism down for this one.

Ytraveller · Sat May 14, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting atal17 (Reply 19):
Another thing, because of AI115/116's cancellation, a 77L is likely to be freed up.

I thought this flight operates with 788 not 77L?

DTWLAX · Sat May 14, 2016 5:35 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Terrible. This has politics written all over it. One step forward, two steps back.

Care to explain?

BobbyPSP · Sun May 15, 2016 1:08 am

Looking at the times the a/c could "turn" at AMD and along with slots, creates the ability to get a deep clean and minor maintenance from UA at EWR

a380787 · Sun May 15, 2016 2:17 am

The super late eastbound departure time that doesn't overlap with any of UA's 5x daily offerings mean this is essentially a "6th daily" flight option for those in Star.

Every little bit helps considering how UA is being dwarfed by BA+AA and DL+VS on this city pair.

But definitely count me as one who did not see this coming at all, esp they chose AMD of all places.

skipness1E · Sun May 15, 2016 3:06 am

KU operate but do not sell the LHR-JFK leg as there was a legal challenge when someone pointed out they were discriminating by denying passage to Israelis on the EU-US leg. Wholly illegal for a number of reasons in the single market.

El Al don't fly LHR-US at all and Air India will make no dent in this market.

RWA380 · Sun May 15, 2016 3:18 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 24):
El Al don't fly LHR-US

Didn't LY stop in the UK when they flew their 757's to the US? STN or something like that. They of course no longer do this.

ojas · Sun May 15, 2016 4:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Terrible. This has politics written all over it. One step forward, two steps back.

Absolutely spot on. Thankfully it is just this one odd political route and is kept 3 per week using a B787. The losses would be far lesser in operating this trash yielding flight. What a waste!

TedToToe · Sun May 15, 2016 9:38 am

Quoting ytraveller (Reply 9):
Delhi - AI, 9W, BA, VS
Mumbai - AI, 9W, BA
Bangalore - BA
Chennai - BA
Hyderabad - BA
Ahmedabad - AI

I know that the ME3 have India sewn up, but I'm surprised there isn't anybody operating LHR-CCU. Kolkata is India's third largest city by GDP. Also PNQ, whilst relatively close to BOM, is huge with European companies and particularly the automotive sector.

JOYA380B747 · Sun May 15, 2016 9:49 am

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 27):
Also PNQ, whilst relatively close to BOM, is huge with European companies and particularly the automotive sector.

No widebody ops possible at PNQ with their current infrastructure, esp the short runway.

LondonCity · Sun May 15, 2016 12:06 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 24):
El Al don't fly LHR-US at all and Air India will make no dent in this market.

But a few years ago El Al used 5th freedom rights for London-New York. I agree that Air India will not take away many passengers from the point-to-point carriers (it doesn't have much capacity) but it will have attractive J/Y fares and these will sell.

jayeshrulz · Sun May 15, 2016 12:30 pm

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 27):
Also PNQ, whilst relatively close to BOM, is huge with European companies and particularly the automotive sector.

PrivatAir already flies this with a 737 BBJ as PNQ-MUC

Quite an interesting route!

jfklganyc · Sun May 15, 2016 1:31 pm

Quoting theginge (Reply 4):

Yes plenty of aircraft sit idle during the day on the US East Coast as they often get there too early to then fly back to Europe straight away.

Absolutely not normal for a 9 hour sit between European flights.

I imagine it is a slot issue at LHR.

DTWLAX · Sun May 15, 2016 5:19 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 30):
PrivatAir already flies this with a 737 BBJ as PNQ-MUC

Isn't that FRA-PNQ?

lightsaber · Sun May 15, 2016 5:27 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 26):
Absolutely spot on. Thankfully it is just this one odd political route and is kept 3 per week using a B787. The losses would be far lesser in operating this trash yielding flight. What a waste!

Sadly I agree. Why isn't AI doing proper network yield analysis? It seems politics is driving them to analyzing each route independent of the network benefit.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 31):
Absolutely not normal for a 9 hour sit between European flights.

I imagine it is a slot issue at LHR.

I agree. 9 hours on the ground is fine with a highly depreciated airframe with lower fixed costs. But on a new (ish) 787 with high fixed vs. relative costs? Cest la vie.

Lightsaber

Spiderguy252 · Sun May 15, 2016 6:32 pm

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 27):
I know that the ME3 have India sewn up, but I'm surprised there isn't anybody operating LHR-CCU. Kolkata is India's third largest city by GDP.

BA pulled out of LHR-CCU years ago, and AI had an oddball DEL-DAC-CCU-LHR for a year or two in the 2000s but that didn't do well either.

Ytraveller · Sun May 15, 2016 6:55 pm

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 27):
I know that the ME3 have India sewn up, but I'm surprised there isn't anybody operating LHR-CCU. Kolkata is India's third largest city by GDP. Also PNQ, whilst relatively close to BOM, is huge with European companies and particularly the automotive sector.

BA flew LHR-CCU until 2009, according to the article below they had been operating the route for 80 years... Around 2003 it was operating with 744 but was operating with 772 at the time of cancellation. LH started FRA-CCU in 2006 but left the market in 2012.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/new...ity-of-diminishing-returns/440731/

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Dreier

As mentioned earlier, LH operated by PrivatAir flies a 737 BBJ on FRA-PNQ.

TedToToe · Sun May 15, 2016 7:24 pm

Quoting ytraveller (Reply 35):

Thank you ytraveller. It would be good to see BA back in CCU, but they will only do that if there is enough yield. In the LHR 3rd runway debate, it is often said that London needs more connections with the BRIC countries; and in the BA threads, that they have the slots but lack the equipment. Maybe, we could see it when BA gets its next batch of 788's.

JOYA380B747 · Mon May 16, 2016 3:21 am

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 30):
PrivatAir already flies this with a 737 BBJ as PNQ-MUC

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 32):
Isn't that FRA-PNQ?

Well it indeed is PNQ-FRA and not MUC, with a fuel stop in Bucharest (last time I had checked).

Spiderguy252 · Mon May 16, 2016 7:55 am

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 36):
In the LHR 3rd runway debate, it is often said that London needs more connections with the BRIC countries; and in the BA threads, that they have the slots but lack the equipment. Maybe, we could see it when BA gets its next batch of 788's.

I believe BA have just one more 788 on order.

theaviator380 · Mon May 16, 2016 8:20 am

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 28):
No widebody ops possible at PNQ with their current infrastructure, esp the short runway.

Not only short runway but PNQ airport is one of the main IAF bases in India and if I am not wrong, IAF has got precedence over commercial operations? Also I heard, not 100% sure, no gulf carrier has permission to use PNQ? This makes it difficult for carrier like QR or flydubai to initiate the service. Glad Etihad have partnership/codeshare with 9W now to give PNQ-AUH flight with onward connection to US and UK.

God knows how long would it take for 2nd new international airport which would help people in Pune and rest southern/East Maharashtra state to travel internationally from PNQ rather than banking on BOM all the time.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 37):
Well it indeed is PNQ-FRA and not MUC, with a fuel stop in Bucharest (last time I had checked).

That stop is only on return journey? FRA-PNQ is nonstop isn't it? I had a thought to use this flight but I didn't opt for it, sitting in 737 for 8+ hours with a child is not fun at all.

Quoting ojas (Reply 26):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):Terrible. This has politics written all over it. One step forward, two steps back. Absolutely spot on. Thankfully it is just this one odd political route and is kept 3 per week using a B787. The losses would be far lesser in operating this trash yielding flight. What a waste!

I am sure he is inferring to Mr. Modi Indian PM who comes from Gujrat.

hohd · Mon May 16, 2016 2:34 pm

Essentially at least half or up to 60% the flight will be flying from AMD to EWR. To make it worthwhile AI needs to fill the remaining plane from LHR to EWR, it remains to be seen if they offer very low fares or price it at the market rate.

LondonCity · Mon May 16, 2016 2:39 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 40):
it remains to be seen if they offer very low fares or price it at the market rate.

AI was infamous years ago for its cheap rates on LHR-JFK. And I would expect it to be the same today ...but expect the seats to be sold through travel agents.

aeroblogger · Mon May 16, 2016 3:47 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 41):
AI was infamous years ago for its cheap rates on LHR-JFK. And I would expect it to be the same today ...but expect the seats to be sold through travel agents.

Now that AI is in Star Alliance, I don't expect that they will need to discount as heavily as they used to.

LondonCity · Mon May 16, 2016 7:02 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42):
Now that AI is in Star Alliance, I don't expect that they will need to discount as heavily as they used to.

You may well be right. Only time will tell. But being a Star member isn't everything. I imagine most Star fans would opt for UA which has many more flights on the route than does AI.

If you check the LON-NYC schedules you will see that there are many, many flights with several airlines all belong to the three main alliances.

The competition will swamp AI. That is why it will need to offer some generous incentives to attract pax for its thrice weekly flights.

a380787 · Mon May 16, 2016 7:10 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 43):

The competition will swamp AI. That is why it will need to offer some generous incentives to attract pax for its thrice weekly flights.

The super late departure is actually not a bad thing either. I'm really not a fan that of TATL flights that leave east coast around 5-6pm, arrive Europe while it's still 12-1am ET with barely 3.5 hours of sleep, and have to be up and about for another 10-12 hours before finally hitting the sack for some real sleep at the hotel.

Unless you NEED to be in London for a 9am meeting, I'd consider the later departures a virtue not a deterrent.

airDFW · Mon May 16, 2016 7:36 pm

Could AI made this flight AMD-Gatwick-EWR? May be they could have brought CCU-LHR which probably had more high paying pax than AMD?

RTW00 · Mon May 16, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting AirDFW (Reply 45):

NJ/NY as well as London has a huge Gujrathi population and make sense to connect it with AMD with minimal stops. EWR-BOM-AMD is a bit of a backtracking.

Love the late departure from EWR-LHR less crowd at both ends. AMD early morning arrival may provide good connections (with private car/Taxi) to other parts of Gujarat.

Any idea of effect on the EWR-BOM loads because of the new service? or will they offer a same aircraft service to other cities eg. HYD?

All the best to AI.

CHI787ORD · Mon May 16, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 27):
but I'm surprised there isn't anybody operating LHR-CCU. Kolkata is India's third largest city by GDP. Also PNQ, whilst relatively close to BOM, is huge with European companies and particularly the automotive sector.

Kolkata is a big city population wise but Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore have all surpassed it in terms of global economic relevance. Kolkata has had a relatively stagnant economy for decades now.

LondonCity · Tue May 17, 2016 11:51 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 44):
The super late departure is actually not a bad thing either. I'm really not a fan that of TATL flights that leave east coast around 5-6pm, arrive Europe while it's still 12-1am ET with barely 3.5 hours of sleep, and have to be up and about for another 10-12 hours before finally hitting the sack for some real sleep at the hotel

I do take your point but isn't it swings and roundabouts ? If I'm a European traveller returning to Europe then I would prefer an earlier flight ex-EWR. Why ? Because if I were staying in a hotel, I'd either have to pay for a room or else I'd have to hang around for many hours before the flight leaves.

cedarjet · Tue May 17, 2016 1:13 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 48):
If I'm a European traveller returning to Europe then I would prefer an earlier flight ex-EWR. Why ? Because if I were staying in a hotel, I'd either have to pay for a room or else I'd have to hang around for many hours before the flight leaves.

Plenty to do in NYC for dinner etc, leave town at 10pm without rushing it, check in around 11ish for a 0100 departure, honestly, there's nothing not to like about the timing for the EWR-LHR leg.

United will having this up their sleeve as well, they can basically sell their own flights with impunity, knowing if the backlog doesn't clear, there's Air-India to mop up at 0100. Lovely.

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