Rizzibird
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LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 4:24 pm

Since I did not see any post about this new route yet, time to give this new service some attention. LH restarted the route last Wednesday, 5 times weekly on A333 (up gauged to A346 between mid-July and early October) after more than 7 years absence from the market. The route has received high attention in the Denver market and a big delegation of more than 40 business, political and community leaders from there have been to MUC for the inaugural. What do you think about the routes chances for success this time? I think it could be a winner, connecting two A++ hubs (DEN was the only one not served from MUC). LH's growth (or rather re-allocation of capacity) seems to be focused on the North Atlantic, what do you think will be the next route from MUC?

http://www.flydenver.com/sites/defau...ds/16-035%20Munich%20Inaugural.pdf
 
UAEflyer
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 4:36 pm

LH will enjoy it until the coming of the ME3
 
777klm
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 1):

Not sure about that, as MUC to DEN is a hub-to-hub route, have StarAlliance connections on both sides.
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TWA772LR
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 5:21 pm

Quoting Rizzibird (Thread starter):
hat do you think will be the next route from MUC?

Rumor has it UA isn't doing so hot on IAH-MUC, so maybe LH can make it work better.
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Rizzibird
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 5:31 pm

I don't think LH will rely too much on India / Middle East Traffic for the MUC flight, LH destinations from MUC in these areas are quite limited. For the FRA flight, it may be a different story.

Regarding IAH, it is too far south to effectively serve as a hub to US destinations from Europe, DEN is in a far better location. However, it is geographically a great connecting point for MEX. But the local Market from IAH suffers from low oil prices. So I don't think MUC-IAH is high on LH's agenda.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 7:01 pm

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 4):
Regarding IAH, it is too far south to effectively serve as a hub to US destinations from Europe, DEN is in a far better location. However, it is geographically a great connecting point for MEX. But the local Market from IAH suffers from low oil prices. So I don't think MUC-IAH is high on LH's agenda.

FWIW, I worked for LH in IAH. When I worked arrivals, I saw bagtags going everywhere from ANC to BOG, and SMF to SDF. And inbounds coming from the same areas as well.
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WaywardMemphian
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 7:11 pm

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 4):
Market from IAH suffers from low oil prices

The effects of low oil is being overstated except maybe for business and first class. Try more effects of refugee crisis.
 
Eirules
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 7:31 pm

I've always thought DEN is rather neglected by UA on the international front. They have domestic feed into it but yet don't fly to many major markets. BA make it work, LH have flown the 747 to FRA for years. Why not more from UA?
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B747forever
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 7):
LH have flown the 747 to FRA for years. Why not more from UA?

As LH and UA have a JV on Transatlantic routes, there is no need for UA to use their own equipment to Europe. The only route I can see UA serving is LHR however I am sure they would already fly it if the demand was there.
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mozart
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
As LH and UA have a JV on Transatlantic routes, there is no need for UA to use their own equipment to Europe. The only route I can see UA serving is LHR however I am sure they would already fly it if the demand was there.

They did.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting 777klm (Reply 2):
MUC to DEN is a hub-to-hub route, have StarAlliance connections on both sides.

The points west of DEN that are sources of significant numbers of travelers to Europe have their own non-stops and don't need DEN: YVR, SEA, PDX, Bay Area, LAX, SAN, SLC, PHX.
 
B747forever
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 9:22 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 9):

They did.

And that proves my point. Not enough traffic for 2 carriers on DEN-LHR. UA already serve LHR from all their other hubs so the die-hard UA FF can connect through there. The rest will just fly BA or the cheapest 1-stop option to LHR.
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Ytraveller
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 9:28 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 7):
I've always thought DEN is rather neglected by UA on the international front. They have domestic feed into it but yet don't fly to many major markets. BA make it work, LH have flown the 747 to FRA for years. Why not more from UA?

At least they fly DEN-NRT, one of their first 787 routes I think.
 
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intotheair
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 10:49 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
And that proves my point. Not enough traffic for 2 carriers on DEN-LHR. UA already serve LHR from all their other hubs so the die-hard UA FF can connect through there. The rest will just fly BA or the cheapest 1-stop option to LHR.

There probably is enough demand — it's just that UA is not nearly as aggressive of an airline as, say, DL is when it comes to trying new international routes. BA has been flying DEN-LGW/LHR nonstop since September 1998, whereas UA has only ever ended up flirting with some seasonal or short-lived attempts at DEN-LHR in the PMUA days when the economy was terrible. It's hard to beat BA's consistency if you're a DEN-based business traveler. (CO also flew DEN-LGW nonstop in prehistoric times from Stapleton Airport.)

I think UA could make a go at DEN-LHR again if it really wanted to — the question is, would UA want to? UA only has so many slots at LHR, and the conventional wisdom has always said that those slots are better used for more frequencies at other hubs. I think that's probably true, though I wouldn't complain if they took an IAH-LHR frequency and gave it to DEN.

Still though, the return of the MUC flight and the first scheduled A330 flight into DEN ever is very exciting! I *love* connecting at MUC much more than at FRA, and it's nice to have another option.

The only other realistic TATL route out of DEN that I would like to see would be a Skyteam flight to CDG or AMS. Apparently CDG is the biggest international destination from DEN that's not yet served by a nonstop, though I don't see it happening anytime soon with AF's condition and with DL's drawback of international expansion.

[Edited 2016-05-14 15:50:58]
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airbazar
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 10:53 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 1):
LH will enjoy it until the coming of the ME3
MUC is a European hub for LH, not an intercontinental hub. LH has what, 5 Asian routes from MUC? No one is going to fly from DEN to Europe via DXB. MUC-DEN is all about the EU-US market.

[Edited 2016-05-14 15:53:30]
 
VX321
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 11:09 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 1):

DEN is hot and high and a * Alliance hub. ME3 would have to find the right plane before launching the route. LH has a better chance than any ME3 carrier. Plus, who exactly would be flying on the ME3? The vast majority of the Denver Asian population is East Asian. Much better to connect through West Coast cities. I'm sure there are some business ties to the ME, but Denver has a lot more ties to Europe than Dubai.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sat May 14, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
Rumor has it UA isn't doing so hot on IAH-MUC, so maybe LH can make it work better.

I've done IAH-MUC a hand full of times, and every time Y has been less than half full. On my most recent trip, a week before Christmas, Y+ was about 50% full and Y- was less than 50%. The FAs didn't hide the fact that it was an easy flight for them. They came around with the drink cart every 45 minutes or so.
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Gabrielz
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting intotheair (Reply 13):

Seriously what are you talking about?
No other airline in the US has started as many entirely new international routes as UA in the past few years. And none have as many in the pipeline.

UA doesn't need to infill many Western Europe routes as it has amazing coverage, its ATI JV is very strong and the region is not growing.

-G
 
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intotheair
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 12:23 am

Quoting Gabrielz (Reply 17):
Seriously what are you talking about?
No other airline in the US has started as many entirely new international routes as UA in the past few years. And none have as many in the pipeline.

UA doesn't need to infill many Western Europe routes as it has amazing coverage, its ATI JV is very strong and the region is not growing.

Compared to DL, UA is much more cautious with how it expands. And not that it's necessarily a bad thing. Nowhere did I really criticize UA's international strategy.

It's documented (and as I also mentioned) DL is not expanding internationally to the same extent as it has been, but in previous years, DL has shown to be much more aggressive when it comes to starting new routes (or even a new hub as is what's happening at SEA). SLC saw a flight to NRT much faster than UA/NH moved on DEN-NRT, and DL acted similarly with the start of SLC-LHR/CDG/AMS. DL will also try oddball new routes like JFK-LYS, RDU-CDG, or JFK-DKR and evaluate their performance after they've begun, whereas UA will study its own adventurous routes (SFO-Mainland China/TLV/SIN) and maybe even start them on lower frequencies before fully committing to them.

In a perfect world, as a part-time DEN-based flyer, I'd love to see UA fully commit to DEN-LHR again, or even see DEN-CDG, but I understand that UA has far more important priorities and more pressing constraints to its resources, so I will still nonetheless celebrate LH returning to DEN-MUC!

[Edited 2016-05-14 17:23:41]
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AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
N104UA
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 2:44 am

As said the only route for UA that would make sense would be DEN-LHR, and it was served by pmUA with a 772 on a seasonal basis. With the economy being better now UA could make it work with a 788/9 but they would have to commit to a year round flight. Being from DEN I know many people who did not fly it because they fly to LHR for business other times of the year and would rather always fly the same carrier. DEN-LHR flights are also currently pretty expensive compared to one stop routes, and FI has a one stop from DEN that many price conscious travelers take.

The CEO of DEN said that she would love a ME3 carrier but as said previously I doubt there is enough demand for that route, unless EK just wants to spite UA/BA/LH by providing super cheap one stop fares to Europe.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
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intotheair
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 4:30 am

Looking at the schedules again, I'm pretty sure there's now more UA/LH capacity on DEN-TATL then there ever has been. When DEN-FRA and DEN-MUC operated concurrently before, DEN-FRA was a 346 year round while the short-lived DEN-MUC was a seasonal 343. Once the ATI kicked in and UA dropped DEN-LHR for good, DEN-FRA went to a 744 year round, and it appears it's staying that way even with DEN-MUC alternating between a 333 and 346. So all the more reason to be excited.

This also makes me doubt even more that UA would ever resume DEN-LHR under these conditions. LH bringing a 744 and 346 to DEN for several weeks is a lot of capacity to Europe nonstop.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 5:03 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 19):
The CEO of DEN said that she would love a ME3 carrier but as said previously I doubt there is enough demand for that route, unless EK just wants to spite UA/BA/LH by providing super cheap one stop fares to Europe.

Emirates has been wanting more 5th freedom rights from Europe. Maybe LHR-DEN can be their way to get their foot in the door.
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WorldspotterPL
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 9:34 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
MUC is a European hub for LH, not an intercontinental hub. LH has what, 5 Asian routes from MUC? No one is going to fly from DEN to Europe via DXB. MUC-DEN is all about the EU-US market.

True - FRA has much more of the India-US connecting pax, MUC is a European hub mainly reliant on streams of passengers between Italy and Sweden, France and Poland etc. Though I have to correct you - MUC has more than 5 Asian LH routes (namely BOM, DEL, PVG, PEK, ICN, HND, HKG, RUH, and IKA - add SIN as part of the new JV between SQ and LH if you want).

Fun fact: The planes that now fly to DEN have been freed by the cancelling of the DXB route ex MUC (now that EK flies a third daily - soon 388 - flight)
 
Someone83
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 10:08 am

Quoting WorldspotterPL (Reply 22):

Fun fact: The planes that now fly to DEN have been freed by the cancelling of the DXB route ex MUC (now that EK flies a third daily - soon 388 - flight)

True, but Luftansa has a handfull of A340-600 in long term storage, so finding capacity isn't too hard
 
N1120A
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 10:30 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 21):
Emirates has been wanting more 5th freedom rights from Europe. Maybe LHR-DEN can be their way to get their foot in the door.

Yeah, I'm sure BA would be THRILLED at that.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 19):
As said the only route for UA that would make sense would be DEN-LHR, and it was served by pmUA with a 772 on a seasonal basis. With the economy being better now UA could make it work with a 788/9 but they would have to commit to a year round flight

The problem with DEN-Europe for UA is that a significant portion of that market is EU point of sale. As such, the EU carriers are much better suited to run the routes, and TATL JVs mean metal is relatively meaningless from a revenue standpoint.
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airfrnt
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 2:40 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 7):

I've always thought DEN is rather neglected by UA on the international front. They have domestic feed into it but yet don't fly to many major markets. BA make it work, LH have flown the 747 to FRA for years. Why not more from UA?

United uses DEN as a extremely efficient domestic hub for it's traffic. Their mindset has been that every international flight from DEN is one that takes away from either LAX or SFO. While they have pursued this policy, BA has basically owned the European market, despite not having a hub there. UA tried to get something going LHR to DEN, but the quality difference was stark when UA was flying that route.

That said, I recently took the NRT to DEN 787. It was fairly full, and by all accounts they are doing pretty good business on that particular route. The outbound leg from the US was a 787 from LAX to Shanghai, and it was probably only 60 percent full (I had a row to myself).

I think there is considerable room for a ME3 flight, both for the middle east and european connections, but also for southeast asia. Every-time I look at flight to Bangkok or Bangelore from Denver, Qatar and EK show up, but the longer connection times rule them out for me. LH also shows, but is almost never price competitive.
 
airfrnt
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 2:56 pm

BTW, for all the talk of the ME3 and traditional legacy carriers, the one carrier that I don't see mentioned in Iceland Air, and a group that I think would be hugely successful with a European connection is WOW air or Norwegian.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 26):
BTW, for all the talk of the ME3 and traditional legacy carriers, the one carrier that I don't see mentioned in Iceland Air, and a group that I think would be hugely successful with a European connection is WOW air or Norwegian

FI already serves DEN.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Restarts MUC-DEN

Sun May 15, 2016 5:20 pm

Quoting WorldspotterPL (Reply 22):
Though I have to correct you - MUC has more than 5 Asian LH routes (namely BOM, DEL, PVG, PEK, ICN, HND, HKG, RUH, and IKA - add SIN as part of the new JV between SQ and LH if you want).

I was asking a question not stating a fact   so 9 instead of 5, not much either way, and i doubt LH is selling a lot of US-Asia connections thru MUC. A quick look at the schedule shows that that the timings are not very convenient, with US arrivals early in the morning and Asian departures late in the day.

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