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AviatorW6
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BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 3:28 pm

Hi,

BA is an operator with one of the biggest (if not the biggest) presence at LCY. Considering that the CSeries is likely to become the most capable aircraft at that airport, it seems quite strange that BA has not ordered any yet. Aren't they planning to extend the number of direct transatlantic routes from there? As far as I know Privatair (and also Odyssey) intend to operate such flights and those will very likely cannibilise BA's premium passengers who would otherwise fly F/C out of LHR. Shouldn't BA enter the competition? Or are they planning to wet-lease Privatair's equioments for such operation?

AviatorW6

[Edited 2016-05-16 08:29:23]
 
ytz
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 3:40 pm

Can LCY even fit any substantial number of CS100s? I thought that was the major limitation: ground space.
 
Andy33
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 3:51 pm

There are I believe only 4 stands at LCY that could possibly take CS100s. For much of the day one is allocated to Swiss for their forthcoming flights on CS100s, two are used by BA for the transatlantic A318s, that leaves just one. Not much opportunity there for BA or anyone else, until the LCY expansion programme is completed, and it hasn't even started yet!
 
Amiga500
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 2):
Not much opportunity there for BA or anyone else, until the LCY expansion programme is completed, and it hasn't even started yet!

Well, its been cleared by The Donald's bestest buddy in the whole wide world.

So anyone any timescales on completion? [assuming it doesn't do a Berlin... where ze legendary German efficiency has morphed into a combination of the British stiff upper lip (all is fine, nothing to see here, keep calm and move along) and the classic Gallic shrug (meh, I don't care if its late)...]
 
opticalilyushin
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:04 pm

At the moment only 4 aircraft stands can fit larger aircraft like the C-Series, A318 etc. I've read somewhere that the new London mayor is a lot more pro-LCY than his bumbling predecessor, so watch this space!
 
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Polot
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 3):
Well, its been cleared by The Donald's bestest buddy in the whole wide world.

The London mayor has only dropped the Greater London Authority's objection to the expansion. There are still other objections that need to be cleared, and government approval is still required. Then work can actually start.

[Edited 2016-05-16 09:11:30]
 
by738
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:46 pm

Not sure i can see 'Odyssey' getting off the ground so cant see any major competition, stands or not. There could be some easy scheduling done if space was the true problem. Particularly if ie westbound ie DXB was considered. SNN westbound in the morning could be used constructively if needed.
 
TC957
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:48 pm

I'm surprised the CS100 needs more space than the E190 that AZ & LH use up at LCY.
 
richcandy
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
As far as I know Privatair (and also Odyssey) intend to operate such flights and those will very likely cannibilise BA's premium passengers who would otherwise fly F/C out of LHR.

Hmm maybe.

A number of start up carriers have tried to operate Business class only services from the London area (but not LCY) to North America. None of these have lasted very long.

BA's LCY-JFK service has been operating for a number of years, so I guess is doing ok. Part of the reason must be because its from LCY were as the others were not, but its also operated by BA. Frequent business travellers tend to collect their miles and therefore are brand loyal. Plus in this case BA give lots of options with regards to routes.
 
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Polot
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:59 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 7):
I'm surprised the CS100 needs more space than the E190 that AZ & LH use up at LCY.

The CS100 is a larger aircraft in terms of capacity than the E190. Its exterior footprint is about equal in size to an A319 (slighter longer, narrower than sharklet A319 but wider than non-sharklet A319) while having capacity roughly equal to the A318. The price you pay for going 5 abreast and having great range/take off performance (bigger wing).

[Edited 2016-05-16 10:00:51]
 
Lofty
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 6:25 pm

If BA had gone for the CSeries they would have had a totally new fleet. The A318s are flown by British Airways crews.
 
YXXMIKE
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Mon May 16, 2016 6:28 pm

It will be interesting to see how LX gets on at LCY with their CS100 and if the noise measured at landing or t/o is noticeably different to it's competitors. I'm curious if it's as good as everyone says it is that it'll help put pressure on accommodating a quieter more eco friendly airplane. However...this is London and airports are inherently evil so it may not matter!!
 
Andy33
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 6:01 am

Quoting Lofty (Reply 10):
If BA had gone for the CSeries they would have had a totally new fleet. The A318s are flown by British Airways crews.

Yes, they're flown by British Airways mainline crews, who are A320 series qualified and otherwise operate out of Gatwick (cabin crew) or both Heathrow and Gatwick (pilots). The flight and cabin crew based at LCY aren't BA mainline but work for BA Citiflyer and only operate E170s and E190s.

I'm not sure if you meant that BA should replace the A318s with CSeries, or the E190s, or the mainline shorthaul fleet.
The A318s are less than a third of the way through their design lives, and the second hand value is almost zero other than as generic A320 series parts, so that would mean a big write-off.
The E190s and 170s are only between two and six years old.
The mainline shorthaul fleet has lots of A319s, which on the face of it would be easily replaced by CSeries, but BA/IAG has determined that the A319 is now too small for its requirements on many routes and what they actually need has between 168 and 180 seats when operated in all-Y mode, as on UK domestics. The current fleet orders reflect this and show A319s leaving the fleet over the next 5 years in some numbers, being replaced by A320neos and also A321neos.
There's no CSeries plane that is currently available, or indeed available within the time frame that BA needs to start replacing A319s, with a capacity as big as a densely-seated A320 or still less A321. For those routes that do need a smaller plane, some of the ex BMI A319s are less than 10 years old.

Basically, Bombardier have missed the boat for this tranche of fleet replacements at BA. The CSeries wasn't flying when they ordered E190s to replace their Avro RJ100s, the CS500 isn't even authorised for production and is still slightly too small for BA needs, and the A318s won't need replacing for years.
 
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seahawk
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 6:53 am

Never buy a plane before the airport expansion is actually happening. Every European airline should have learned that lesson.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 2):
the LCY expansion programme

What does it entail?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Andy33
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 7:45 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
What does it entail?

If approved, it would add a parallel taxiway, at the moment planes have to taxi using the active (only) runway, add seven new stands capable of parking planes of up to CS100 size, make four existing stands larger, expand terminal capacity to 6 million passengers per year, and add an airport hotel.
This is never going to be a big airport. The runway is built out into the water on a pier, the site is entirely surrounded by densely populated built-up area and high buildings, which is why the types of plane that can use it are severely restricted, it has night-time curfews, and closes down completely from lunchtime Saturday to lunchtime Sunday.

The local council now supports the expansion, and the new London Mayor has withdrawn objections from the Mayor's office, but the number of other objections means that first a Planning Inspector, and then the Secretaries of State for Transport and for Communities will need to rule on it. It's far from a done deal yet.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:12 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 15):
and closes down completely from lunchtime Saturday to lunchtime Sunday.

Interesting. Any stated reason?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
richcandy
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:24 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 16):
Interesting. Any stated reason?

I think its to do with the agreement they had with the local council when the airport was first opened.

The airport is surrounded by buildings many of which contain expensive apartments.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:37 am

Quoting richcandy (Reply 17):
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 16):
Interesting. Any stated reason?

I think its to do with the agreement they had with the local council when the airport was first opened.

The airport is surrounded by buildings many of which contain expensive apartments.

And ordinary people live around it as well

LCY is a niche airport, it's quite right to restrict its size and the types of planes operated, bearing in mind it first opened with the Dash 7 operating all the flights!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
Andy33
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:54 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 16):
Interesting. Any stated reason?

Apart from the entirely correct reasons others have given, this airport was only originally approved and financed on the basis of its convenience to business travellers. As there are no business travellers to the destinations the airport was intended to serve between Saturday and Sunday lunchtimes, the original promoters offered this as a concession. It does at least provide some respite from aircraft noise to the very large number of local residents. The other five officially recognised London airports don't have a closedown period like this, and so the city as a whole is hardly deprived by the restrictions at LCY.
 
richcandy
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 9:20 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 18):
And ordinary people live around it as well

Yes of course they do, but whats ordinary in London? £1.6m buys a house that in other parts of the UK would sell for less than £200K. In London you could be living in your £1.6m house and your next door neighbour might be a council tenant. The way things are going if you are not wealthy or lucky enough to have a council house then you are going to get squeezed out.
 
kurtverbose
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 10:36 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
What does it entail?
Quoting Andy33 (Reply 15):
If approved, it would add a parallel taxiway, at the moment planes have to taxi using the active (only) runway, add seven new stands capable of parking planes of up to CS100 size, make four existing stands larger, expand terminal capacity to 6 million passengers per year, and add an airport hotel.

Now.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a581/kepler-524/London-city-airport-global-infra-com_zpsesshbw2y.jpg

After.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a581/kepler-524/1772983_City-airport-web_zpsrgy8u34c.jpg

That's quite a lot of water to fill in.

It's always my preference to fly to LCY so looking forward to the expansion and Swiss using the C-series.
 
vv701
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 12:06 pm

The LCY-JFK route is so unusual it is easy to forget that it is a small and statistically virtually an unimportant route.

The UK CAA reports that in 2015 4,762,426 passengers flew between LON (LCY, LGW, LHR and LTN) and NYC (EWR and JFK). Of these just 21,375 flew between LCY and JFK. That is less than one half a per cent of the total market.

This raises two questions.

Could any other long-haul route from LCY be viable?

Could more than one operator successfully serve the one existing LCY long-haul route that currently offers no more than 64 seats each way on weekdays?
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 12:29 pm

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 21):

It's always my preference to fly to LCY so looking forward to the expansion and Swiss using the C-series.

Yes mine too, I've has some very interesting landings and take off in LH E-jets, its definatly not a boring approach or climb out. I will certainly try to jump on a C-series into LCY.
BV
 
kurtverbose
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RE: BA And The CSeries: Missed Opportunities At LCY?

Tue May 17, 2016 3:58 pm

Quoting vv701 (Reply 22):
Could any other long-haul route from LCY be viable?

As you point out it's a very tiny market as there are so many restrictions.

Short field length (BA make a tech stop in Ireland as they can't take off with enough fuel). The size of plane and range means that it can only really take a business class payload. Maybe some other east coast destinations - Boston, or alternatively middle east?

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