cedarjet
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747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 7:06 am

Have been looking into 747-100s and -200s at BA, an interesting history. A few gaps in my knowledge, does anyone remember the pilots' strike which delayed the introduction (actually at BOAC) of the jumbo? I know it was about wages, and some newspapers of the time ran cartoons which said the pilots would fly it when their wallets were so fat they could sit on them and be high enough to see out the window (along those lines).

Also curious about routes, since in those days the 747s were flying with many en route stops, a hangover from the 50s and 60s when the first stop on the way to Australia was Frankfurt or Zurich. Seems that even in the early 70s when the 747s took over from 707s and VC10s, you could fly LHR-ZRH or FRA-BEY on a BA 747. I love to hear about multi-stopping flights of yesteryear, anyone know any specific routes with 747s?

Final routes were in the late 90s with -400s doing the ultra-longhaul (SIN, NRT, SFO), -200s doing some reasonably impressive heavy lifting (BKK, NBO, MIA) and the -100s doing short oceanic (PHL, YYZ, BOS, JFK, IAD) and India.

Finally, what is the exact sequence of the introduction of business class? Seems that the late 70s saw the introduction of "Executive Class" which became "Super Club" but only on US routes in c. 1984, later rolled out to the rest of the network in around 1987. Any clarification on that?

Interesting shots of an overhaul in 1985; you can almost hear Relax by Frankie Goes To Hollywood playing out of a tinny radio somewhere in the cabin

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GSTBA
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 8:02 am

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
Also curious about routes, since in those days the 747s were flying with many en route stops, a hangover from the 50s and 60s when the first stop on the way to Australia was Frankfurt or Zurich. Seems that even in the early 70s when the 747s took over from 707s and VC10s, you could fly LHR-ZRH or FRA-BEY on a BA 747. I love to hear about multi-stopping flights of yesteryear, anyone know any specific routes with 747s?

Have had a look at a timetable from 1980. Here are some of the multi-stopping flights I found for that year

LHR-BOM-PER-MEL-AKL - 3 x Weekly

LHR-BOM-KUL-BWN - 1 x Weekly

LHR-MCT-SIN-SYD-BNE - 2 x Weekly
LHR-BAH-SIN-SYD-BNE - 1 x Weekly

LHR-DEL-BKK-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-DXB-BKK-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-FCO-MCT-CCU-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-FCO-DEL-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-FRA-BAH-CCU-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-FCO-DEL-BKK-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-BAH-CCU-HKG - 1 x Weekly
LHR-FRA-BAH-DEL-HKG - 1 x Weekly

LHR-ANC-NRT-KIX - 4 x Weekly

LHR-BDA-NAS-KIN - 1 x Weekly

LHR-BAH-SEZ-MRU - 1 x Weekly

LHR-MCT-SIN-SYD-MEL - 2 x Weekly
LHR-DXB-SIN-SYD-MEL - 1 x Weekly

LHR-BDA-KIN-MEX - 1 x Weekly
 
kiwiandrew

RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 8:59 am

^Thanks GSTBA, I feel quite nostalgic  

It's incredible to think of LHR-HKG with two to three enroute stops.

One wee quibble, I don't think KIX was open back then, so the 4 weekly service to Osaka would have been to the old airport.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 9:30 am

In 1979 BA was operating a 747 daily MAN-PIK-YYZ (BA081/BA080)! This was on top of ten weekly 747 flights LHR-YYZ, a daily 747 LHR-YUL and three weekly 707 on MAN-PIK-YUL. BA, however, had nothing to anywhere else in Canada.

By 1985 the only 747 flight making a stop in Europe was BA3 (LHR-FCO-BAH-HKG-PEK) on a Wednesday, with the return BA20 departing PEK on a Thursday and arriving back in LHR on a Friday.

Another BA 747 oddity in 1985 was BA25/BA26 - HKG-CMB-SEZ-JNB and return, once weekly (Dep. HKG on a Friday; dep. JNB on a Saturday).
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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BreninTW
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 9:39 am

In 1983 my family and I flew LHR-HRE-JNB on a BA 747 (I have no idea which version of it -- I suspect it was a -100).

My previous flight had been Dulles - LHR, also on a BA 747 a month earlier.

Sadly, I was (as a pre-teen) not very impressed with the service on the flights and decided to never fly BA again. I managed to avoid* BA until last year when I flew ZRH - LHR on an A320, and again later in the year was re-booked onto the BA LHR - HKG 77W flight when my CX flight was cancelled. I'm pleased to have discovered that the flying experience was far, far better than I remembered!

* It is, admittedly, pretty easy to avoid an airline when you basically never fly to their hub! Between 1983 and last year I only flew through LHR twice!
 
cedarjet
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 11:15 am

Some great replies, thanks so much.

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 1):
Have had a look at a timetable from 1980. Here are some of the multi-stopping flights I found for that year

Sterling effort!!

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
Another BA 747 oddity in 1985 was BA25/BA26 - HKG-CMB-SEZ-JNB and return, once weekly (Dep. HKG on a Friday; dep. JNB on a Saturday).

I thought that was gone by the end of the 60s, a rare trip through the remnants of the British Empire without setting foot on the mainland. Crew scheduling must have been a nightmare, although nice to be actual crew, presumably the roster would have looked like UK to Hong Kong with a few night stops en route, then down through the Indian Ocean to JNB, and then all the way back!

One interesting thing I noted looking at AeroTransport.org, various other -100s and -200s came in on lease (notably an Are Lingus machine and two from MEA, both for long stretches of years) but BA have only ever operated their own -400s, as far as I (and ATDB) can see, not even a wet lease in the -400 era.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
vv701
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 12:38 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
but BA have only ever operated their own -400s, as far as I (and ATDB) can see, not even a wet lease in the -400 era

True for passenger aircraft but not for 744Fs.

BA first wet leased 747 47UF N495MC (20256/1213) from Atlas Air . It was operated in BA Chelsea Rose livery with 'British Airways World Cargo' titles.

After two years this same aircraft now reregistered G-GSSA, was wet leased by BA but was operated in Global Supply Systems livery with 'Operated for British Airways World Cargo' nose titles.

G-GSSA was joined by 747 47U Fs G-GSSB (29252/1165) and 'SC (29255/1184) that again were operated for BA World Cargo in GSS livery.

The three UK registered 744Fs were replaced after approximately ten years by new 748Fs. Again they were opeated by GSS this time on a five year wet lease. These aircraft were operated in BA Union Flag livery with 'British Airways World Cargo' titles.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 2:15 pm

I actually have some route specific interest questions about BA's 747s to answer from trivia that i can't find a straight answer on:

1> How did BA handle the ex-BCal 747-200s, did they keep them on the specific ex-BCal routes or did they start coming into anything LGW/not LHR based?

2> for the late 80s LHR-ANC-NRT-xxx flights, did AWNx -100s fly those or was it only -200s?

3> Did BA ever use leased 747-200s equipped with SCDs as Combis or all cargo (not including leased full freighters)?
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
tonyban
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 2:35 pm

Oh the memories !

I grew up living down Waye Avenue in Cranford. For those of you who are familiar with the area, this was the last street for landing aircraft to cross before touching down on 27R.
I used to bike by my way up to the Hatton Cross facilities just to look at the 'jumbo jets' on the weekend. Waye Avenue park was merely a few feet from the the hangers at Hatton Cross and it was all too familiar hearing the roar of an engine run while we played cricket. That was a long time ago !

[Edited 2016-05-17 07:55:06]
 
cedarjet
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 2:39 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 7):
Did BA ever use leased 747-200s equipped with SCDs as Combis or all cargo (not including leased full freighters)?

They definitely had two of MEA's vagabond 747-200Ms for five years, 1985 to 1990, but I don't know if they were used as combis or as full pax.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
rutankrd
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 2:55 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 7):
1> How did BA handle the ex-BCal 747-200s, did they keep them on the specific ex-BCal routes or did they start coming into anything LGW/not LHR based?

They remained at Gatwick , however did in fact operate the Gatwick- Manchester- JFK flights for time.

This was also the last BA service to carry the BR code.
 
vv701
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 7):
How did BA handle the ex-BCal 747-200s, did they keep them on the specific ex-BCal routes or did they start coming into anything LGW/not LHR based?

At that time BA were operating to South Africa and were not welcome in many African countries. So they repainted two of BCals five 742s, G-GLYN and G-HUGE in a hybrid version of BCal's and their own then current Landor livery with 'British Caledonian' titles. Here are 'before' and 'after' photos:


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Photo © Paul Robinson



These two aircraft were dedicated to operating former BCal routes to those African countries that had banned BA.

BA bought BCal on 14 April 1988. The ex-BCal, G-BJXN, was leased to Middle East Airlines that August. They then subleased it to Nigeria Airways who operated it in BCal livery. It was returned to BA that October and sold to Potomac Capital for lease to Continental Air Lines in May 1990.

BCal's 742 G-CITB was operated by BA for a short period in full BCal livery. It was then sold to All Nippon but immediately leased back by BA now repainted in their Landor livery. It was returned to All Nippon in November 1990.

G-NIGB, the fifth former BCal 742 was also operated by BA in full BCal livery until at least the Summer of 1989. It was repainted in BA Landor livery by early summer 1990 but soon after was sold to Nora Leasing and leased to Philippine Airlines.

There is photographic evidence that once repainted in Landor livery the aircraft may have been fully integrated into BA's service. But this is uncertain. For example a photo taken at LAX of one of these aircraft may have been operating a former BCal service. On balance my best guess is that these five aircraft were primarily used on former BCal routes.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 4:47 pm

I'd seen pics of that paint scheme before, i always thought it was some half-done hybrid from just before the official merger, I didn't realize it was an official thing but it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 5:28 pm

British Airtours (KT/BKT), later Caledonian Airways (KT/CKT) after the BCal acquisition operated a small number of 747s for short periods.

G-BDXL City of Winchester was used in Summer 1984 rather than go into store. The database shows it at: -


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Faro (KT???) and Los Angles (KT201)


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Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer
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Photo © Prince Aviation Images


Munich-Riem and Manchester (after arrival from MCO)


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London Gatwick and London Heathrow

G-BMGS City of Swansea is one of the ex-BCal birds (747-283B ex-SAS) and is pictured at: -


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Manchester (KT???) and London Gatwick (KT206 from LAX)

G-BMGS then gained Caledonian Airways colours and was renamed Loch Ness. It is pictured at: -


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Los Angeles and Miami
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TedToToe
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting tonyban (Reply 8):
I grew up living down Waye Avenue in Cranford. For those of you who are familiar with the area, this was the last street for landing aircraft to cross before touching down on 27R.

28R back then, I guess. I lived in Hounslow, directly under 28L. Those were the days!
 
ZeeZoo
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Tue May 17, 2016 11:08 pm

Quoting tonyban (Reply 8):
Oh the memories !

I grew up living down Waye Avenue in Cranford. For those of you who are familiar with the area, this was the last street for landing aircraft to cross before touching down on 27R.
I used to bike by my way up to the Hatton Cross facilities just to look at the 'jumbo jets' on the weekend. Waye Avenue park was merely a few feet from the the hangers at Hatton Cross and it was all too familiar hearing the roar of an engine run while we played cricket. That was a long time ago !

How did you live? We used to live in Hayes a little while ago and we could hear the early morning heavy arrivals from a distance away.

On top of that, must have gotten front row seats for the few 09L Concorde departures?

[Edited 2016-05-17 16:12:56]

[Edited 2016-05-17 16:22:16]
 
beechnut
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
In 1979 BA was operating a 747 daily MAN-PIK-YYZ (BA081/BA080)! This was on top of ten weekly 747 flights LHR-YYZ, a daily 747 LHR-YUL and three weekly 707 on MAN-PIK-YUL. BA, however, had nothing to anywhere else in Canada.

In 1979 it would have been YMX, which opened in '75, and not YUL.

I've flown on BA's classics a few times: in '85, YMX-LHR-YMX on a -136, and in 1990 LHR-JNB-LHR; in '94 I flew YMX-LHR-YMX but can't recall if it was a -436 or a Classic. That trip was to connect to LHR-JNB-LHR trip but that was definitely a 436 at that time. All my other BA 747 flights were on 400s.

Beech
 
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
does anyone remember the pilots' strike which delayed the introduction (actually at BOAC) of the jumbo? I know it was about wages, and some newspapers of the time ran cartoons which said the pilots would fly it when their wallets were so fat they could sit on them and be high enough to see out the window (along those lines).

That pilots' dispute really hurt BA's (still BOAC but their code was BA) competitive position as their first 6 747s had to be stored for a year or more while competitors like Pan Am and TWA were operating the only widebodies from LHR to the U.S. I think the first 3 delivered in early 1970 were parked at LHR for the duration of the dispute and the other 3 were probably stored in the U.S.

An agreement was reached in late January 1971 but BA then needed about 3 months for pilot training so their inaugural 747 flight (to JFK) wasn't until April 25, 1971, 15 months after Pan Am started 747 service on the route and TWA soon after. So instead of being the 3rd or 4th carrier to operate the 747, by the time BA put the type into service at least 20 other airlines, including at least 12 or 13 transatlantic carriers, were operating the 747.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 1:16 am

1979: LHR-FRA-MCT-DEL-HKG.

Initially the 742's were mostly relegated to the LHR-LAX/SFO/AKL (Via BOM/PER) routes. Later they did LHR-SYD (via BKK) and JNB nonstops. 742 config was the same as the 741 except for 2 fewer J class seats on the upper deck (space needed for bunk bed crew rest).

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):
Sadly, I was (as a pre-teen) not very impressed with the service on the flights and decided to never fly BA again. I managed to avoid* BA until last year

BA service in the 70's up until late 80's probably tied with Sabena in being the worst of all Northern European airlines- every time it was a crew issue who believed it demeaning to serve (think of Thomas in Downton Abbey if he didn't think you had a good pedigree). There were also lots of reports of female pax in business class being given sub-standard treatment (no drinks or newspapers for you). Fast forward to the revised Landor livery with the "to Fly to Serve" crest and all BA employees undertook a be nice to customer educational course (senior management knew from feedback surveys they had a severe image problem).

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 7):
or the late 80s LHR-ANC-NRT-xxx flights, did AWNx -100s fly those or was it only -200s?
747-100 route. One flight a week continued to HKG then rotated HKG-CMB-SEZ-JNB-NBO-LHR... the days of cheap fuel! Don't forget the 2 741's with different regos: G-BBPU & G-BDPV.

3> Did BA ever use leased 747-200s equipped with SCDs as Combis or all cargo (not including leased full freighters)?

They used the 2 MEA aircraft in combi configuration and then received their own combis G-BDXM & N. However, soon after they were converted to full pax operations. The 747 freighter was sold.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
These two aircraft were dedicated to operating former BCal routes to those African countries that had banned BA.

I don't believe BA was banned by any African countries- how was this possible when these same African airlines were flying to LON? There was a British Govt. sphere of influence policy where Africa was carved up between BA & BCal- a similar arrangement to AF & UTA.
 
triple7man
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 6:13 am

In March 1987 I flew BA ORD-LHR-ORD on their 747's. I also flew to BFS on a 757 and 737. It was my first time to fly BA and my first time to fly internationally on a foreign carrier. A big plus was getting to visit the cockpit in flight; which the FAA prohibits in the US. On the outbound flight, the captain told me, that the aircraft for this flight was a 747-200 Combi which was leased from Middle East Airways. We were carrying a spare engine, which is why we had the heavy takeoff from ORD. It was a really great flight with great cabin service.
On the return flight I flew on a 747-100. I noticed on BA 747's that there is no overwing exit door. I had a cockpit visit and the captain really enjoyed showing it to passengers.
My only other flight on BA was in February 1999 on BA 001 Concorde LHR-JFK. Since this post is on BA 747's, this will be my only comment on Concorde, other than it was the ultimate experience. I never wanted to fly subsonically again
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factsonly
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 7:08 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
At that time BA were operating to South Africa and were not welcome in many African countries.

This is not correct, BA was never 'not welcome' in many African countries.

The British Governments in those days awarded 'routes' to specific national carriers, under a two airline policy. Very much in line with government policy in other countries with multiple long-haul airlines:

- France - Air France and UTA
- Canada - CP Air and Air Canada
- USA - PanAm and TWA

The governments decided who operated where, the airline was not free to choose. This was a fully regulated airline environment, where routes, capacity and prices were decided by Government, (often) the owners of the airlines. While IATA set standards for many service issues. Airline management had very little freedom in those days.

The British Government kept BA and BCAL from direct competition by awarding specific destinations to each carrier. Only towards the end of regulation were the very largest of destinations awarded to both carriers, as there was sufficient traffic for both:

- LON-HKG
- LON-NYC
- LON-LAX

BA was awarded:
- South Africa
- Malawi
- Ethiopia
- Kenya
- Uganda
- Tanzania
- Sudan
- Egypt

BCAL was awarded:
- Senegal
- Gambia
- Ghana
- Ivory Coast
- Nigeria
- Sierra Leone
- Liberia
- Zambia
- North Africa

The British Government awarded individual destinations in the USA to either BCAL or BA. Only after the purchase of BCAL by BA did BA operate to the original BCAL destinations.

UNITED STATES destinations from the UK awarded to carrier:
- New York - BA
- Chicago - BA
- Philadelphia - BA
- Washington - BA
- Boston - BA
- Atlanta - BCal
- Dallas - BCal
- St. Louis - BCal
- Houston - BCal
- seattle - BA
- San Francisco - BA
- Los Angeles - BA

All of South America was basically BCal:
- Lima
- Bogota
- Caracas
- Rio
- Sao Paolo
- Buenos Aires
- Santiago de Chile

In Europe also great examples:
- GLA-AMS - BCal
- NCL-AMS - BCal
- MAN-AMS - BA
- BHX-AMS - BA
- LGW-AMS - BCal
- LHR-AMS - BA
 
N1120A
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 7:38 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):
In 1983 my family and I flew LHR-HRE-JNB on a BA 747 (I have no idea which version of it -- I suspect it was a -100).

A -100 would have had problems with the range. It was likely a -200
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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eta unknown
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 8:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
A -100 would have had problems with the range. It was likely a -200

Correct... a -200. 100's did LHR-NBO-JNB, but anything further than NBO was a -200.

Quoting triple7man (Reply 19):
On the return flight I flew on a 747-100. I noticed on BA 747's that there is no overwing exit door. I had a cockpit visit and the captain really enjoyed showing it to passengers.

Door 3 modifications (read: elimination) was undertaken by BA, KLM, Cathay Pacific and Thai to install extra seats. Thai quickly re-installed the door after public relations pressure in Thailand.
 
vv701
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 1:25 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 20):
This is not correct, BA was never 'not welcome' in many African countries.

If BA were widely welcomed in all African countries do you know why BA briefly retained the BCal brand on the two 747s operated on former BCal African routes? Indeed why did BA go to the expense of repainting both of the former BCal 747s G-GLYN and G-HUGE in a hybrid BA Landor / BCal livery with the BCal rampant lion on their tails and 'British Caledonian' fuselage titles (as illustrated in Reply 11)?
 
beechnut
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 2:07 pm

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 22):
Correct... a -200. 100's did LHR-NBO-JNB, but anything further than NBO was a -200.

And even the 200 I was on stopped at NBO before continuing on to JNB; when I was on the same business trip 4 years later, it was a -400 that operated non-stop from Heathrow. Shortly after takeoff the Captain came on the PA with interesting stats about our takeoff, weight, takeoff run, and the only number I remember, liftoff speed which he said was 200 mph and which I back-calculated to the knots that I'm more familiar with, to 174 knots which is about right for a 400 at MGTOW.

With JNB at higher altitude, on the return trip, it seemed like we were rolling forever before we were airborne. The only time I experienced what seemed a longer takeoff run was on an Air Canada A340-300 on an NRT-YYZ non-stop on a hot and hazy summer evening, and that was the only time I felt somewhat alarmed on a takeoff that we'd run out of runway before getting into the air, except one other time on an AC 727-200ADV doing YVR-YUL non-stop where at rotation we went over a hump on the runway and seemed to settle back down (I thought for sure the pilot was aborting, but we eventually struggled into the air).

Beech
 
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eta unknown
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 2:13 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
One interesting thing I noted looking at AeroTransport.org, various other -100s and -200s came in on lease (notably an Are Lingus machine and two from MEA, both for long stretches of years) but BA have only ever operated their own -400s, as far as I (and ATDB) can see, not even a wet lease in the -400 era.

The EI -100 was registered G-BDPZ and was dedicated to the LHR-ORD route. FYI at the time ORD & MIA flights departed from Terminal 1.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
If BA were widely welcomed in all African countries do you know why BA briefly retained the BCal brand on the two 747s operated on former BCal African routes? Indeed why did BA go to the expense of repainting both of the former BCal 747s G-GLYN and G-HUGE in a hybrid BA Landor / BCal livery with the BCal rampant lion on their tails and 'British Caledonian' fuselage titles (as illustrated in Reply 11)?

First of all the remarks attributed to G-GLYN in the database photo are flat out incorrect. The only airlines affected by African bans were SAA and, in the 70's, TAP. However, some countries (Tanzania being the most zealous) denied entry to people with South African stamps in their passport. However, South African immigration gladly put their entry and exit stamps on a separate piece of paper if you asked on arrival- this scenario is a far cry from saying BA was banned.

Shortly after BCal was merged into BA the parent company used the Caledonian name as a charter carrier instead of or in addition to British Airtours- as for G-GLYN photo in question I'd guess it was perhaps an experimental scheme or painted for a movie shoot. I can't find any pics of G-HUGE in this scheme.

FYI none of the BCAL 747's ever saw the light of a Heathrow day on scheduled services- they were always LGW based aircraft. Finally, many of the BCAL inherited routes were soon dropped by BA as not commercially viable.

[Edited 2016-05-18 07:25:58]

[Edited 2016-05-18 07:27:02]
 
factsonly
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 3:52 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
If BA were widely welcomed in all African countries do you know why BA briefly retained the BCal brand on the two 747s operated on former BCal African routes? Indeed why did BA go to the expense of repainting both of the former BCal 747s G-GLYN and G-HUGE in a hybrid BA Landor / BCal livery with the BCal rampant lion on their tails and 'British Caledonian' fuselage titles (as illustrated in Reply 11)?

Sorry, I do not know the specific answer to your question. But I would not be surprised if it had to do with bilateral agreements between the UK and some African states in which BCAL may specifically have been mentioned as the operating carrier. It may have taken time to adjust these agreements to BA.

The legal side of aviation can and does result in surprising interim solutions.

But it may also have been union related issue or another internal reason.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 4:17 pm

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 25):
I can't find any pics of G-HUGE in this scheme.
http://www.british-caledonian.com/images/WATN747%20HUGE004.jpg

I knew i'd seen it somewhere...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
superjeff
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 6:00 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
One interesting thing I noted looking at AeroTransport.org, various other -100s and -200s came in on lease (notably an Are Lingus machine and two from MEA

I actually flew the Aer Lingus plane from ORD-LHR in about 1974 or 1975, I think. It had a full BA livery, but the interior was definitely EI.
 
tonystan
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 6:04 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 28):

"Paddy" Zulu it was know as and apparently had a bit of flight deck graffiti which said "fly green side up"!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 25):
The EI -100 was registered G-BDPZ and was dedicated to the LHR-ORD route.

In hybrid livery and to YYZ too...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gary Vincent



...and sub-leased for a short-time to BR.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Fitzgerald

 
pilot21
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 6:18 pm

I flew with BA to SFO in 1998 on a B747-200, in the bubble - but in economy!
A few (if not all perhaps?) of their B742 fleet had a 3 X 3 configuration upstairs with about 5 or 6 rows from what I remember! While still economy, the pax vs. crew ratio def made it feel a little more special!

Also was on a B747-100 to Boston around the winter of 1998.

Pilot21
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 8:36 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 26):
Sorry, I do not know the specific answer to your question. But I would not be surprised if it had to do with bilateral agreements between the UK and some African states in which BCAL may specifically have been mentioned as the operating carrier. It may have taken time to adjust these agreements to BA.

The legal side of aviation can and does result in surprising interim solutions.

But it may also have been union related issue or another internal reason.

I think the LGW-DXB-HKG route retained the BR code after the merger for a short while. Winter 1988-89 saw: -

BR7381 LGW-DXB (_234567) DXB-HKG (1_23567)
BR7382 HKG-DXB (1_34567) DXB-LGW (12_4567)

I suspect that needed two aircraft to operate, so perhaps G-GLYN and G-HUGE gained the hybrid scheme to operate that flight?

At the same time, from LHR, BA was serving HKG: -

* Three times weekly via BOM (one flight started/finished in MAN)
* Three times weekly via DEL (one flight started/finished in MAN)
* Three times weekly non-stop (one flight went on to PEK)
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
747400sp
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 9:32 pm

Interestingly, I watching an Air Crash Investigaton episode, about Speed Bird 9. That a large part of BA's 747s classics history.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 9:41 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 33):
watching an Air Crash Investigaton episode, about Speed Bird 9.

the night flight over Indonesia?
 
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eta unknown
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Wed May 18, 2016 11:44 pm

Quoting pilot21 (Reply 31):
A few (if not all perhaps?) of their B742 fleet had a 3 X 3 configuration upstairs with about 5 or 6 rows from what I remember!

All had the same configuration. Rows 57-60 ABC & HJK. The -100's also had Row 56 ABC. The seats could be used as economy or converted to business class as 57-60 AC & HK. Sometimes pax could do this themselves if the middle seat was empty!
The seat bottom was a long bench and the middle back of seats B & J could be altered to form an arm rest- see second pic in OP post. In ads the business seats were touted as the widest in the world, but because of the bench base they were not that comfortable- the edges often sagged.
 
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longhauler
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Thu May 19, 2016 1:11 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 20):
- Canada - CP Air and Air Canada

CP Air /Canadian Pacific never had scheduled rights to the UK.

While they offered "charter" flights to the UK, as did many Canadian carriers, only Air Canada was the designated carrier to the UK until the mid/late 1980s. Then ... the second carrier status was designated to Wardair Canada.

When Canadian Airlines (the resultant carrier when Pacific Western Airlines purchased Canadian Pacific) purchased Wardair Canada, then CP finally gained scheduled rights to the UK. It seems odd now, with today's open skies, but it was a bone of contention for CP for many years, and in fact a lot of their Canada-AMS flights were carrying people destined to the UK!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Viscount724
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 2:13 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 35):
The seat bottom was a long bench and the middle back of seats B & J could be altered to form an arm rest- see second pic in OP post. In ads the business seats were touted as the widest in the world, but because of the bench base they were not that comfortable- the edges often sagged.

Those BA "Super Club" convertible seats were very uncomfortable. They were wide in the 2-2-2 J class configuration but that's about their only advantage. The bottom seat cushion was also quite short which added to their discomfort. I think BA quickly realized that they were no match for proper 2-2-2 seats of carriers like Pan Am and TWA (equivalent of US domestic F class seats now) which were much more comfortable but lacked the flexibility of being able to use then as either J or Y class. The convertible Super Club seats were good when they were part of the Y class cabin as they were 9-abreast instead of the standard 10-abreast Y rows further back, but that didn't help BA generate more premium traffic.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 36):
When Canadian Airlines (the resultant carrier when Pacific Western Airlines purchased Canadian Pacific) purchased Wardair Canada, then CP finally gained scheduled rights to the UK. It seems odd now, with today's open skies, but it was a bone of contention for CP for many years, and in fact a lot of their Canada-AMS flights were carrying people destined to the UK!


Like today, many people much preferred to connect at AMS than at LHR to/from the many regional UK destinations served from AMS.

And in later years when CP had a massive charter program to the UK (like Wardair), it really didn't matter much whether the UK flights were scheduled or charter. Charters also permitted service to many UK airports which AC wasn't permitted to serve on a scheduled basis. About the only difference was that tickets had to be issued by travel agents but they were by far the dominant distribution channel then anyway. Charters also permitted much more pricing flexibility without any IATA fare agreement red tape etc. The Canada-UK O&D market is so big it didn't matter much that charters lacked the same interlining facilities as scheduled flights.
 
Max Q
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
It's incredible to think of LHR-HKG with two to three enroute stops.

Really ?



I travelled that route on BA's Classics (and Pan Am) many times in the '70's and we had considerably more than two to three stops, don't remember them all but Rome, Tel Aviv, Tehran, Bombay, New Delhi and Bangkok come to mind.


It was quite the adventure !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
dc863
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 3:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
That pilots' dispute really hurt BA's (still BOAC but their code was BA) competitive position as their first 6 747s had to be stored for a year or more while competitors like Pan Am and TWA were operating the only widebodies from LHR to the U.S. I think the first 3 delivered in early 1970 were parked at LHR for the duration of the dispute and the other 3 were probably stored in the U.S.

BOAC used the down time to learn what to do, what not to do, and how to do it by looking at the mistakes PA had made in it's first year of ops. It made BOAC's intro of 747 service quite smooth by comparison to PAs.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 18):
LHR-FRA-MCT-DEL-HKG.

Did they have traffic rights on the India-HKG sector?

What about ex-FRA?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
N1120A
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 4:45 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 40):
Did they have traffic rights on the India-HKG sector?

What about ex-FRA?

They had rights on all of the above. Remember, HKG was part of the kingdom at the time, and the allies had all kinds of traffic rights ex-FRA.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Bellerophon
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 11:34 am

cedarjet

...Another BA 747 oddity in 1985 was BA25/BA26 - HKG-CMB-SEZ-JNB and return, once weekly (Dep. HKG on a Friday; dep. JNB on a Saturday). I thought that was gone by the end of the 60s...

Yes, still going at least for a small part of the 1980s, as it was a route I've operated, and the only fifth engine ferry I ever did was on part of that route, when an engine was needed in SEZ.


..Crew scheduling must have been a nightmare, although nice to be actual crew, presumably the roster would have looked like UK to Hong Kong with a few night stops en route, then down through the Indian Ocean to JNB, and then all the way back!...


The trip was in fact split and crewed by two separate crews, one crew at the top of the seniority list, the other, including me, at the bottom!

The senior crew flew LHR-HKG-CMB and then bounced back CMB-HKG-LHR.

The junior crew flew LHR-NBO-JNB-SEZ-CMB and bounced back CMB-SEZ-JNB-NBO-LHR.

CMB was where the most junior and senior crews met and traded insults, where the "Afrika Korps" met the "Senior Citizens".

Sadly, SEZ was a transit, although we had a few days in CMB, a beautiful place to be, despite the political troubles.

Best Regards

Bellerophon
 
vv701
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 1:46 pm

Quoting dc863 (Reply 39):
BOAC used the down time to learn what to do, what not to do, and how to do it by looking at the mistakes PA had made in it's first year of ops. It made BOAC's intro of 747 service quite smooth by comparison to PAs.

The main early problem that BOAC avoided because of the pilots' strike was with the P&W JT-9D engines. By the time the 741 entered service with BOAC one year late in April 1971 many of this engine's initial engine unreliability problems had been solved.
 
tonyban
Posts: 262
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 14):
28R back then, I guess. I lived in Hounslow, directly under 28L. Those were the days!

Oh I didn't know that ! Thanks for the correction. Wonderful memories!
 
tonyban
Posts: 262
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 2:38 pm

Quoting ZeeZoo (Reply 15):
How did you live? We used to live in Hayes a little while ago and we could hear the early morning heavy arrivals from a distance away.

On top of that, must have gotten front row seats for the few 09L Concorde departures?

We moved to Cranford in 1972 and as a kid I absolutely loved the noise and watching the aircraft. Now that you mention it, take offs from 09L were so rare that I can only recall one Concorde take off.

My dad worked for BA and was stationed at TBC near Hatton Cross. I was fortunate enough to go there a few times with him and walk around the parked aircraft and go inside freshly delivered 'jumbo jets'.

I've lived in San Jose, CA since 1981.

[Edited 2016-05-20 07:39:56]

[Edited 2016-05-20 08:35:49]
 
topbanana
Posts: 89
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 3:40 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
I love to hear about multi-stopping flights of yesteryear, anyone know any specific routes with 747s?

You might want to take a look at this British Airways Intercontinental timetable from 1980:

http://www.departedflights.com/BA011680p1.html
Top Banana in the West. Yes.
 
shankly
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Fri May 20, 2016 3:55 pm

My first ever wide bodied flight was 747-136 G-AWNK Heathrow - Bermuda on 28th June 1978. Flew back a month later on 'WNL

I seem to recall that flight went on to other Caribbean islands, (possibly Jamaica?) before concluding its journey in Mexico City

That first breath of jet fuel, mixed with hot humid air, whilst walking down the open air steps off 'WNK at Kindley Field made a great impression on the then 12 year old me.
L1011 - P F M
 
dc863
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Sat May 21, 2016 6:56 am

Quoting vv701 (Reply 43):
The main early problem that BOAC avoided because of the pilots' strike was with the P&W JT-9D engines

It wasn't just the engines. It had a lot to do with cabin service, service carts, service flow, boarding and deplaning, how many jetways or portable stairs to use. BOAC also stocked up on parts like flap tracks, main cabin flooring, items they noticed Pan Am, TWA, Air France, Alitalia were replacing owing to wear and tear.
By 1972 every airline operating the 747 had basically learned what to do/not to do with the aircraft.
 
B-HOP
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RE: 747 Classics At British Airways

Sun May 22, 2016 2:20 am

Cedarjet

...Another BA 747 oddity in 1985 was BA25/BA26 - HKG-CMB-SEZ-JNB and return, once weekly (Dep. HKG on a Friday; dep. JNB on a Saturday). I thought that was gone by the end of the 60s...

Yes, still going at least for a small part of the 1980s, as it was a route I've operated, and the only fifth engine ferry I ever did was on part of that route, when an engine was needed in SEZ.


..Crew scheduling must have been a nightmare, although nice to be actual crew, presumably the roster would have looked like UK to Hong Kong with a few night stops en route, then down through the Indian Ocean to JNB, and then all the way back!...


The trip was in fact split and crewed by two separate crews, one crew at the top of the seniority list, the other, including me, at the bottom!

The senior crew flew LHR-HKG-CMB and then bounced back CMB-HKG-LHR.

The junior crew flew LHR-NBO-JNB-SEZ-CMB and bounced back CMB-SEZ-JNB-NBO-LHR.

They also has and still runs a crew base in Hong Kong Cantonese speakers (cabin crew)

Fascinating!! Wasn't that route flown by DC-10 then Tristar? Did it continue to NRT? My dad, who was a fireman in Kai Tak mentioned this milk run (by VC-10) and flown twice a week. By the early 90's, one of the flights to UK would be non stop and another be stopping in Delhi or Karachi? and it leaves earlier, both later became non stop. Do BA swap 747-200 engines with Tristar 200 like they do with 744/763? Care to mention maybe a bit about Tristar in terms of routes

Kev
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