timtam
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 2:27 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 98):
HNA Aviation Group, part of the HNA Group - a Fortune Global 5000 conglomerate - will also take a 13 per cent stake in Virgin Australia worth A$159 million (NZ$171 million) as part of the deal.

Being done through an issue of new shares.

Air New Zealand is getting shafted big time here by VA.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 2:50 am

With the HNA group having an existing presence in SYD, CNS, OOL and soon MEL, it has the base to build from, but this actually may be a good way for them to gain a foothold on PVG and PEK to Australia routes.

Some route authorities can be hard to get for the Chinese carriers, so they may see this as a good opportunity to leverage another opportunity through VA.

Quoting timtam (Reply 100):
Air New Zealand is getting shafted big time here by VA.

Oh well, the NZ CEO did appear to talk down the company publicly so you can see why that may go against them.



[Edited 2016-05-30 20:08:37]
 
aerohottie
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 3:21 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 100):
Air New Zealand is getting shafted big time here by VA.

So is SQ and EY...
What?
 
bunumuring
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 3:32 am

Hey guys,
The Hainan news is big and a potential game changer.
I would consider a China Eastern/Southern response involving Qantas to be likely now. MU and QF have been cozying-up to each other lately, maybe more so now to counter VA-HNA...
Direct VA flights to China? Maybe but I don't think likely beyond maybe a token route to wave the flag a la Abu Dhabi. I don't know much about the HNA, and they're the only major Chinese airline I haven't flown on, but they are held high in regard by my Chinese friends and contacts.
Certainly I would expect a greater HNA presence in Australia from now on. The move on VA signals their intent.
And btw, what's the latest on VA's wide body requirement plans? Still on the back burner? I would assume so...
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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timtam
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 3:37 am

Might force an urgent rethink from CX on its relationship with QF.

In a sense, VA/HNA are achieving a synthetic version of what QF was seeking to do with Jetstar HK.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 3:37 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 103):
Direct VA flights to China? Maybe but I don't think likely beyond maybe a token route to wave the flag a la Abu Dhabi.

Apparently they are looking at 8 weekly flights to start with, with HKG and PEK the main possibilities.

It would likely be operated with a mix of HU and VA aircraft, but I do struggle to see how the former will overcome the China route authorities and bi-lateral limits for HK carriers on what would likely be considered premium routes (ie. SYD/MEL/BNE-HKG/PEK).
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 3:42 am

Hey guys,
It appears that Turnbull and Shorten each have a RAAF BBJ at their disposal during the federal election campaign plus an Alliance Fokker 70 each accompanying for media. Is this correct?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 100):
Air New Zealand is getting shafted big time here by VA.

No more than Etihad and Singapore.

Air NZ has not yet sold its shares, and may not, of course.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 101):
Oh well, the NZ CEO did appear to talk down the company publicly so you can see why that may go against them.

How so? Saying it's time for Virgin to become profitable - a year - ago - isn't really talking it down.

Whatever was said privately, the public reason given for possibly pulling out was the desire, by Air NZ, to concentrate on its own activities.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 4:04 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 104):

Interesting point. If there is a VA tieup with a Hong Kong carrier, this negates the monopoly argument for not having a QF/CX tieup. As to whether relationships can be mended, that is another thing altogether!
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 4:46 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 105):
It would likely be operated with a mix of HU and VA aircraft, but I do struggle to see how the former will overcome the China route authorities and bi-lateral limits for HK carriers on what would likely be considered premium routes (ie. SYD/MEL/BNE-HKG/PEK).

It won't. The only way for this to work is for Virgin to use the available capacity out of Australia for the Hong Kong route and for Hong Kong Airlines / Hainan etc to codeshare on it. It will be fascinating to see how that works. As I said in the other thread slots at HKG are hard to come by now so if Hong Kong Airlines was, at the behest of its parent airline, to make a available a slot pair to Virgin that would naturally raise the same questions about that airline that were asked about Jetstar Hong Kong in terms of who is running it. It could make for a very interesting time.

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 108):
this negates the monopoly argument for not having a QF/CX tieup. As to whether relationships can be mended, that is another thing altogether!

Without open skies or a substantially broadened bilateral I don't think it's arguable that a QF/CX tieup wouldn't dominate the Hong Kong routes. So I doubt anything really changes between QF and CX and I wouldn't be too worried if I was them in any case. They're both in bed with substantially larger Chinese carriers than what HNA is.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 103):
The Hainan news is big and a potential game changer.
I would consider a China Eastern/Southern response involving Qantas to be likely now. MU and QF have been cozying-up to each other lately, maybe more so now to counter VA-HNA...

I don't see this as a game changer. Virgin needs more $$$ and the existing shareholders are probably maxed on what they will provide so VA found someone else. QF doesn't need more capital and in terms of its foreign shareholding could not do a deal like this in any case. With their already substantial relationships QF doesn't need to respond to this because they're well out in front.

As I said in the other thread, this is however a great way for the HNA Group which owns Hong Kong Airlines which can't fly into major Australian cities due to bilateral restrictions to find a way to expand on the Australia - Hong Kong route using Australian frequencies. It's very smart. Lets see if it gets up.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 4:49 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 109):
Quoting QF2220 (Reply 108):this negates the monopoly argument for not having a QF/CX tieup. As to whether relationships can be mended, that is another thing altogether!
Without open skies or a substantially broadened bilateral I don't think it's arguable that a QF/CX tieup wouldn't dominate the Hong Kong routes. So I doubt anything really changes between QF and CX and I wouldn't be too worried if I was them in any case. They're both in bed with substantially larger Chinese carriers than what HNA is.

Yep agreed too.
 
sq256
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 4:54 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 108):

Interesting point. If there is a VA tieup with a Hong Kong carrier, this negates the monopoly argument for not having a QF/CX tieup. As to whether relationships can be mended, that is another thing altogether!

If UA/SQ (the Star Alliance equivalent of QF/CX) can let the bygones be bygones, I would suggest QF/CX do the same. But I think QF/CX mending whatever issues they have is unlikely anytime soon considering the Jetstar HK failed attempt is fresh in the minds of the regulators in HK.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 5:34 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 109):
way for this to work is for Virgin to use the available capacity out of Australia for the Hong Kong route and for Hong Kong Airlines / Hainan etc to codeshare on it. It will be fascinating to see how that works. As I said in the other thread slots at HKG are hard to come by now so if Hong Kong Airlines was, at the behest of its parent airline, to make a available a slot pair to Virgin that would naturally raise the same questions about that airline that were asked about Jetstar Hong Kong in terms of who is running it. It could make for a very interesting time.

It will if the story about operating 8 weekly flights with a mix of HU and VA operated aircraft being used proves to be correct.

If VA operates the HKG services and HU is left to fly from China, it limits the possible options that the Chinese carrier can operate unless it holds route authority on that sector.

One route I am not sure what the route authority situation is would be PEK-BNE. It is currently not operated but there was talk CA were looking at that route.

Currently the premium routes from the 2 biggest Chinese hubs are (Does not include QF):

SYD/MEL-PEK (CA)
SYD/MEL-PVG (CA, MU)
BNE-PVG (MU from later this year)

There are some legacy route authorities that can see 2 airlines fly the sector but there are definitely polotics involved in the process over there.

[Edited 2016-05-30 22:40:41]
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 5:43 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 112):
Currently the premium routes from the 2 biggest Chinese hubs are (Does not include QF):

SYD/MEL-PEK (CA)
SYD/MEL-PVG (CA, MU)
BNE-PVG (MU from later this year)

There are some legacy route authorities that can see 2 airlines fly the sector but there are definitely polotics involved in the process over there.

Which further develops the points about Hong Kong. BNE-PEK could be a route that HNA is interested in in the same way Virgin could fly SYD-PEK and develop connections. But I'd argue that VA would be much better off focusing on HKG and the connections which Hong Kong Airlines can provide to it and let HNA do what it can out of PEK. (Assuming VA can get the right slots into HKG)
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 5:58 am

If VA can get 5 x weekly flights on SYD-HKG (or a less likely but still a solid option being MEL-HKG), it would then give it a fairly good base to connect to Hong Kong Airlines network.

These would likely be operated by A330's which do not play as important of a role anymore since the PER market started to cool off.

The 3 x weekly BNE-PEK operated by HU would offer great connectivity to their main base, giving good feed at both ends.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 7:42 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 95):
I have to say that I'm a bit skeptical about so many VORs and NDBs being removed. GNSS is the future for sure, but I suspect that (generally speaking) we are heading towards an over reliance on GPS; not good if there is ever an outage.

A few months ago, Australian regulations changed making GNSS the primary means of navigation for IFR Navigation. And, something catastrophic must happen for a big enough outage (ie. we'd probably need to worry about much more than this) to take away GNSS, especially with other nations getting their systems up and running.

Some VOR/NDB's will remain in operation. Basically the ones at the larger airports and the ones that are very remote. So, if an individual aircraft lost its GNSS capability, it should still have some sort of ground station somewhere not too far away. Not enough to plan a flight by (GNSS is what we use for this now), but enough coverage so that an aircraft can still navigate safely to a diversion airport.

It's a logical move getting us further into the 21st century, with a lot of cost saving as well.

-CXfirst
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 9:21 am

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 102):
Quoting timtam (Reply 100):Air New Zealand is getting shafted big time here by VA.
So is SQ and EY...

Who knows, SQ/EY may actually have wanted another carrier on board (albeit highly unlikely).

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 109):
It's very smart. Lets see if it gets up.

You know what, the VA ASX announcement makes no mention of the share placement being contingent on shareholder approval, the announcement states:
"The share placement is subject to and will take place after receipt by HNA of regulatory approvals from Chinese authorities and other commercial conditions precedent"
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20160531/pdf/437l9rnmtr05fl.pdf

If shareholder approval was required, this would usually be spelled out explicitly in any ASX announcement.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Tue May 31, 2016 10:32 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 103):

I don't think QF would be that worried, as everyone has mention QF have the MU/CZ deal signed sealed and delivered, CZ being the worlds 3rd largest carrier, MU being a Major in China too, and not to forget CI that QF have major codeshare with, so QF has the big 3 in China, VA has a airline with very little presence within China, and a airline that flys 'boutique' routes from China. I see HNA as a bit like EY really, they seem to be going around buying unprofitable airlines like TAP and Azul...... So who really gains from this? VA or HNA?
When is my next holiday?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:39 am

The Borghetti disaster rolls on - sounds like VA will be seeking a further capital raise. How much cash can he burn through?

From todays AFR:
"Implicit is that Hainan has already agreed to join Singapore Airlines, Etihad and probably Virgin Group (Richard Branson has been in Australia this week) to fund the approximate $800 million more that Borghetti needs to keep his planes in the air. An eye-popping number, given that JB has already cranked up borrowings by $1.7 billion, issued $675 million of new equity, and sold 35 per cent of the family silver (Velocity Frequent Flyer) to Affinity Equity Partners for $336 million".

Read more: http://www.afr.com/brand/rear-window...rgin-20160531-gp8e3i#ixzz4AHdNgGuT
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:52 am

VA needs to get Tiger rebranded and bigger, faster.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:17 am

Received a note today from the IASC stating that VA is looking for 7 frequencies per week to HK and 1925 seats per week (275 per day) to China.

Copies here

http://iasc.gov.au/applications/index.aspx#hk3105

New flights to begin from 1 June 2017, seems quite distant IMO. Doesn't mention anything about codeshares or interlines, but does mention an upcoming alliance with HNA.

[Edited 2016-05-31 19:19:46]
 
tullamarine
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:20 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 116):
You know what, the VA ASX announcement makes no mention of the share placement being contingent on shareholder approval, the announcement states:
"The share placement is subject to and will take place after receipt by HNA of regulatory approvals from Chinese authorities and other commercial conditions precedent"
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20160531/pdf/437l9rnmtr05fl.pdf

If shareholder approval was required, this would usually be spelled out explicitly in any ASX announcement.

This is correct. Shareholder approval is not required for this transaction, just board approval, meaning this decision is not a surprise to EY or SQ. As NZ had resigned its position prior to this placement, it therefore made itself ineligible to be informed in advance of all other shareholders. This was a poor tactical decision by Chris Luxon and will result in his holding losing value as part of the dilution that will occur as part of this placement and the subsequent recapitalisation. Fairfax probably described it best today as a very costly dummy spit.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:32 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 121):
This was a poor tactical decision by Chris Luxon and will result in his holding losing value as part of the dilution that will occur as part of this placement and the subsequent recapitalisation.

Once again, others think differently:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/worl...virgin-australia-partners-with-hna

"Air NZ faces 'imponderable' decision of whether to stick with Virgin

Air NZ would have considered the risk of its stake in Virgin Australia being diluted when it announced the potential sale of its shares in March, industry expert Irene King says

How much further its stake will be diluted will depend on the size and timing of Virgin's much-anticipated capital raising, which could raise up to A$1 billion.

Air NZ would be weighing up whether it could get a better return from exiting Virgin relative to staying put.

"That must be a big imponderable."

Air NZ shareholders seem unphased by Virgin's announcement with Air NZ shares increasing 14c this week."


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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 122):
Air NZ faces 'imponderable' decision of whether to stick with Virgin

If they are not selling, can they get their board seat back? It would certainly be an embarrassing thing for Luxon to do.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:02 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 120):

Received a note today from the IASC stating that VA is looking for 7 frequencies per week to HK and 1925 seats per week (275 per day) to China

So I was right! haha Now it'll be interesting to see:

1. The Hong Kong slots they can obtain and whether further agreements with Hong Kong Airlines follows;
2. The Chinese city they plan to serve. The only that makes sense if probably PEK.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:03 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 123):
If they are not selling, can they get their board seat back? It would certainly be an embarrassing thing for Luxon to do.


I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the board seat pertains to the owner of the share block, not to the individual, or the nominated alternate.

When James Hogan resigned from the board of Virgin Australia in 2015, his nominated alternate resigned as well, and they appointed another Etihad person to the seat.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...stralia-board-20150218-13ic6o.html

"Etihad CEO James Hogan resigns from Virgin Australia board

His alternate director, Etihad chief financial officer James Rigney, also an Australian, has stepped down from his role as well.

Instead, French-born Etihad chief operating officer equity partners Bruno Matheu will sit on the Virgin board, with German-born senior vice president finance equity partners Ulf Huttmeyer serving as his alternate."


The question is, would Air NZ want board membership if they didn't sell their shares? Maybe, but I doubt ti would be Luxon.

The way the BOD - and it's Chair - is presently aligned, a dissenting director would be pushing it uphill.  Smile

mariner

[Edited 2016-05-31 20:05:06]
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:37 am

Not sure if I missed it, but VA is back operating BNE-VLI after suspending it due to runway concerns in January. Not sure how long it has been back for..
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:48 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 120):
Received a note today from the IASC stating that VA is looking for 7 frequencies per week to HK and 1925 seats per week (275 per day) to China.

Copies here

http://iasc.gov.au/applications/inde...k3105

Looking at the application, they specify it would be operated by A330 aircraft. I wonder if this means VA are in planning to acquire/lease more A330s, or if the existing A330s are going to be pulled from some East Coast-Perth runs?

[Edited 2016-05-31 20:49:55]
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:51 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
The way the BOD - and it's Chair - is presently aligned, a dissenting director would be pushing it uphill

Wouldn't it be interesting to see NZ act as an activist shareholder in Virgin? As our former PM once said "when you have a difficult person on a camping trip its much better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in."

Quoting timtam (Reply 118):
"Implicit is that Hainan has already agreed to join Singapore Airlines, Etihad and probably Virgin Group (Richard Branson has been in Australia this week) to fund the approximate $800 million more that Borghetti needs to keep his planes in the air. An eye-popping number, given that JB has already cranked up borrowings by $1.7 billion, issued $675 million of new equity, and sold 35 per cent of the family silver (Velocity Frequent Flyer) to Affinity Equity Partners for $336 million".

If VA does in fact need $1 billion in new equity that, to my mind, is nothing short of a disgrace. In an environment where decent airlines around the world, and even some that aren't so, are making money hand over foot that really is not acceptable. For their share of $1 billion EY, SQ and NZ could create their own domestic feeder carrier from scratch and have money left over.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:11 am

Quoting sq256 (Reply 127):

It would make sense if they redeployed their current ones. Theyd have the legs to HKG, what about PVG or PEK?

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 124):

Yep, that you were!
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:11 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 128):
Wouldn't it be interesting to see NZ act as an activist shareholder in Virgin? As our former PM once said "when you have a difficult person on a camping trip its much better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in."

A dissenting minority shareholder is probably a fairly useless position to be in even if NZ could get their board position back. NZ effectively has 3 options:
1. Get on board with strategy of other 4 key shareholders. (Probably not going to happen as it would require a huge loss of face for Luxon and NZ probably can't afford to fully participate in recapitalisation meaning its shareholding would continue to decline in influence anyhow)
2. Buy VA outright (NZ can't afford this option and there is no indication as yet that the other key shareholders would be interested in selling anyhow. There is also the issue that history tells us that NZ buying an Australian airline, particularly one bigger than themselves, is not a great idea.)
3. Sell down shareholding in a way that maximises return for NZ shareholders and means VA remains alliance partner (Any plans to create an Australian domestic airline of their own is daft and a guaranteed way of losing shedloads of money. There is also the issue that the only terminals they would have access to would be those shared with LCCs, hardly a way to create a full-service airline.)
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:12 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 128):
Wouldn't it be interesting to see NZ act as an activist shareholder in Virgin? As our former PM once said "when you have a difficult person on a camping trip its much better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in."

I agree, but I doubt Luxon would want to go there again.

I do find it eccentric journalism that an entirely rational decision to get out of a money losing investment is described as a "dummy spit" - especially with the prospect of having to sink even more money into it in the not so distant future.

It's a primary rule of investment - don't throw good money after bad.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 129):
It would make sense if they redeployed their current ones. Theyd have the legs to HKG, what about PVG or PEK?

Should do - CA use A330s for PEK-MEL.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 124):
Quoting QF2220 (Reply 120):
Received a note today from the IASC stating that VA is looking for 7 frequencies per week to HK and 1925 seats per week (275 per day) to China
So I was right! haha Now it'll be interesting to see:

1. The Hong Kong slots they can obtain and whether further agreements with Hong Kong Airlines follows;
2. The Chinese city they plan to serve. The only that makes sense if probably PEK.

According to the follow Australian Aviation article it does mention the Chinese destination as PEK. The article also mentions that both routes will be operated from a major Australian gateway, so it will probably be either SYD or MEL that they operate from

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...-hong-kong-beijing-traffic-rights/
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:40 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 131):
I do find it eccentric journalism that an entirely rational decision to get out of a money losing investment is described as a "dummy spit" - especially with the prospect of having to sink even more money into it in the not so distant future.

Classic Australian playground behaviour.....
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:52 am

Quoting sq256 (Reply 127):
Looking at the application, they specify it would be operated by A330 aircraft. I wonder if this means VA are in planning to acquire/lease more A330s, or if the existing A330s are going to be pulled from some East Coast-Perth runs?

No idea on this but, if I was to guess, I'd go for a combination of existing fleet and some more A330s. One thing HNA brings to the VA table is a huge leasing company so sourcing some new or near-new A332s probably just got a whole lot easier.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:00 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 124):
2. The Chinese city they plan to serve. The only that makes sense if probably PEK.

The IASC note specifically references PEK as the point in China so there's no guessing required for that one.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 135):
No idea on this but, if I was to guess, I'd go for a combination of existing fleet and some more A330s. One thing HNA brings to the VA table is a huge leasing company so sourcing some new or near-new A332s probably just got a whole lot easier.

A daily HKG would need one A330 to pull off, of course contingent on what slots they end up with, but PEK would require 1.5-2 frames per day. Even if we assume the worst case, that's a total of 3 A330s per day required. That leaves an A330 for BNE, MEL and SYD (or even just MEL and SYD, and go back to 738s on BNE transcons) which would be sufficient. I don't think there's any urgent need for more A330s under the stated plans.
 
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qf2220
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:02 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 133):

Could it be BNE? Would offer quite a lot of efficiency in terms of connection from SYD, MEL, HBA, ADE etc, and a point of difference to QF. May not be the best for SYD pax I know, but its something different.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:04 am

Quoting sq256 (Reply 127):
Looking at the application, they specify it would be operated by A330 aircraft. I wonder if this means VA are in planning to acquire/lease more A330s, or if the existing A330s are going to be pulled from some East Coast-Perth runs?

They could probably downgrade a few of the flights to 737s, but if VA were to deploy A330s daily to HKG and PEK, they could probably use another A330 in their fleet. Perhaps, with some clever scheduling, they could get away with it. A330s have practically left the PER-BNE route, so there is a little slack in the fleet at the moment.

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 129):
It would make sense if they redeployed their current ones. Theyd have the legs to HKG, what about PVG or PEK?

As VA have the A330-200's, they will have absolutely no problem.

-CXfirst
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:31 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 130):
A dissenting minority shareholder is probably a fairly useless position to be in even if NZ could get their board position back

I disagree. What the Virgin Board and John Borghetti want is all of their shareholders in a nice line behind them and those who have seats around the boardroom table silent. With NZ no longer having a board position and significantly down on their investment they have an opportunity to articulate an alternative vision for Virgin publicly and achieve buy in for that. That then pressures the Board and forces the independent Directors especially to consider their positions. Hell if NZ had the opportunity I'd appoint someone like Carl Icahn to come out and shake their tree..................

Quoting qf789 (Reply 133):
According to the follow Australian Aviation article it does mention the Chinese destination as PEK. The article also mentions that both routes will be operated from a major Australian gateway, so it will probably be either SYD or MEL that they operate from

I'd guess SYD because HNA wouldn't be able to get in there on their own and its the biggest market.

Quoting mariner (Reply 131):
I do find it eccentric journalism that an entirely rational decision to get out of a money losing investment is described as a "dummy spit" - especially with the prospect of having to sink even more money into it in the not so distant future.

It's a primary rule of investment - don't throw good money after bad.


Agreed. Having a disagreement on strategy and direction which meant Luxon couldn't support VA's strategy as a Director is not a dummy spit. Nor is seeking to sell their shares. But it does make for a better headline if its described as a dummy spit.
 
smi0006
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:37 am

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 117):

I don't think QF would be that worried, as everyone has mention QF have the MU/CZ deal signed sealed and delivered, CZ being the worlds 3rd largest carrier, MU being a Major in China too,

I agree, I'd like to see MU and QF retime their flights. Maybe add one more route with QF metal. Maybe reinstate MEL-PVG and MU fly MEL-PEK? Although Chinese routes are tightly controlled so QR may have to be the more flexible.

What's QFs current frequency to HKG?

With such advanced notices I'm sure QF/MU can easily counter VA- seems like a money pit too me. Especially considering China is often low yield. And VA won't have huge brand recognition, and the aha as group is somewhat splintered..
 
tullamarine
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:12 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 139):
I disagree. What the Virgin Board and John Borghetti want is all of their shareholders in a nice line behind them and those who have seats around the boardroom table silent. With NZ no longer having a board position and significantly down on their investment they have an opportunity to articulate an alternative vision for Virgin publicly and achieve buy in for that. That then pressures the Board and forces the independent Directors especially to consider their positions. Hell if NZ had the opportunity I'd appoint someone like Carl Icahn to come out and shake their tree........

In a perfect world, that would be wonderful but the free-float at VA is only 15%. Even if NZ could get all of the 15% to vote for them, it doesn't count for much given there is no indication that anyone else on the board representing the controlling shareholders dissents from the current plan and, in fact, NZ's position has actually got worse following the arrival of HNA.

There is also the issue that NZ management should not want to get distracted fighting battles it can't win. NZ is now a successful airline but not without its challenges and threats. If the NZ board believes it probably wants out of VA then directing management into overcoming these will be more profitable in the long term.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:34 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 140):
What's QFs current frequency to HKG?

QF127/128 SYD-HKG daily 744
QF117/118 SYD-HKG 5 weekly A333
QF97/98 BNE-HKG daily A333
QF29/30 MEL-HKG daily service, Mon-Thu operated by A333, Fri-Sun operated by 744
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zeke
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:59 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 140):
And VA won't have huge brand recognition, and the aha as group is somewhat splintered..

HNA group is the 4th largest carrier in China, around 450 aircraft in the group with lots of pending orders. The also have have interests in Africa, Brazil, and Uber.
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timtam
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:16 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 142):
There is also the issue that NZ management should not want to get distracted fighting battles it can't win. NZ is now a successful airline but not without its challenges and threats. If the NZ board believes it probably wants out of VA then directing management into overcoming these will be more profitable in the long term.

Yeh. NZ made a commercial investment in VA that made sense at the time but has turned out to be a mistake and rather than throw good money after bad, its time to move on for them. At the time of making the investment NZ did not know that it would end up being surrounded by shareholders who do not have the same commercial drivers as NZ.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:17 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 141):
In a perfect world, that would be wonderful but the free-float at VA is only 15%. Even if NZ could get all of the 15% to vote for them, it doesn't count for much given there is no indication that anyone else on the board representing the controlling shareholders dissents from the current plan and, in fact, NZ's position has actually got worse following the arrival of HNA.

There is also the issue that NZ management should not want to get distracted fighting battles it can't win. NZ is now a successful airline but not without its challenges and threats. If the NZ board believes it probably wants out of VA then directing management into overcoming these will be more profitable in the long term.

It doesn't have to be a perfect world. A Board has a duty to respond to any significant shareholders concerns with why their plan is the better one. To have that play out in public at the same time Virgin is looking to raise cash would be distracting to Virgin but hardly be a bother to NZ. After all NZ is performing very well at the moment and was even with Luxon on the Board which would have been far more distracting for NZ Management.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:18 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 142):
QF117/118 SYD-HKG 5 weekly A333

Moving to daily now that they have the slots.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:29 am

Reminder that the first AC 787-8 YVR-BNE flight arrives in BNE as AC35 on Friday at 7:15am and departs back to YVR at 10:40am as AC36.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:03 am

Major expansion for Eva Air at BNE, going from 2x to 5x weekly from 6 October 2016

BR315 TPE2300 – 0950+1BNE 332 x37
BR316 BNE1145 – 1845TPE 332 x14

Source: http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...ts-brisbane-flights-from-oct-2016/

This is quite a significant expansion given they have operated 2-3x weekly for many years now. Also a new flight time, aircraft previously sat on ground in BNE for ~12 hours.

Great news for BNE!
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 141

Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:20 am

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 137):
Could it be BNE? Would offer quite a lot of efficiency in terms of connection from SYD, MEL, HBA, ADE etc, and a point of difference to QF. May not be the best for SYD pax I know, but its something different.

Don't think so but hey you never know.

SYD and MEL would likely be far more of a priority though, as the premium market on those routes to HKG should be far more of an advantage.

I would hazard a guess that even though SYD-HKG has more competition it will go with that route. MEL-HKG or BNE-HKG would likely go against the JB playbook  

This deal certainly is exciting though as it enables a mutually beneficial outcome for both VA and HU.

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