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danvs
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 9:44 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 99):
Is the Mediterranean Sea that deep in that region?

Well, I'm using Google Earth (GE) which, although not 100% accurate, gives a rough idea.
According to GE, the ocean has a depth, at position KUMBI, of 2876m (9,435 ft). The ocean floor around this waypoint is basically a basin, ranging from 2800m to 3000m.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting GlenP (Reply 98):
Further to the above exchange, the BBC has just reported that the CVR & FDR have not been found; going into some detail about how the pingers work.

I never stated that the black boxes were found, or made any sort of speculation about them. I simply relayed that the info from the linked report which says they were located. That to me would suggest they've tracked down the pings and are attempting to retrieve the boxes. The media frequently gets leaks from sources close to the investigation and reports their claims before the accident investigation officials confirm the information leaked in those reports is in fact correct.
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holzmann
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 10:27 pm

Quoting poolkeeper (Reply 52):
I agree100%. My understanding as software designer is that you isolate flight flight computers from entertainment computer physically. It means that flight computers can feed information like speed, altitude etc. to the entertainment computer but this is oneway. Flight computer doesn't even need to get an ACK back because it doesn't care if the message is accepted or not. So by hacking you can in best case get flight info and disturb/take down entertainment part (and maybe affect some cabin systems like lights...) but nothing vital.
Electric buses are normally protected for overvoltage and short cuts so a fuse would blow. Again this would just affect the passengers but not the control systems.
There is a better change that you can affect something through the ACARS communication but even that is not likely to affect anything.

This article would beg to differ:

"connected to other systems on the airplane network after he exploited/gained access to, or "hacked" the [in-flight entertainment] system. He stated that he then overwrote code on the airplane’s Thrust Management Computer while aboard a flight. He stated that he successfully commanded the system he had accessed to issue the climb command. He stated that he thereby caused one of the airplane engines to climb resulting in a lateral or sideways movement of the plane during one of these flights. He also stated that he used Vortex software after compromising/exploiting or "hacking" the airplane’s networks. He used the software to monitor traffic from the cockpit system."

http://arstechnica.com/security/2015...ane-in-flight-causing-it-to-climb/
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ComeAndGo
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 10:33 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 103):
"connected to other systems on the airplane network after he exploited/gained access to, or "hacked" the [in-flight entertainment] system. He stated that he then overwrote code on the airplane’s Thrust Management Computer while aboard a flight. He stated that he successfully commanded the system he had accessed to issue the climb command. He stated that he thereby caused one of the airplane engines to climb resulting in a lateral or sideways movement of the plane during one of these flights. He also stated that he used Vortex software after compromising/exploiting or "hacking" the airplane’s networks. He used the software to monitor traffic from the cockpit system."

on a computer system designed in the mid 80's?? doubt it. You remember what we were using in the mid 80's. Windows 3.1 was 't even there yet. And the likes of IBM used com ports to network not ethernet.
 
Rivet42
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 103):
This article would beg to differ:

Sounds like nonsense to me. Not sure he actually knows what he's talking about. It's extremely dubious that any such 'access' would be possible from a passenger seat via the IFE.

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 99):
Is the Mediterranean Sea that deep in that region?

According to a geologist on tv earlier today (I'll see if I can find a link), this region of the Mediterranean is not only over 3000m deep, the sea bed is also rugged and 'mountainous' - the obvious concern is thus that if the airframe has come to rest inbetween ridges, the black-box pingers may only be detectable from directly above. Recovery would also be treacherous...

Not good news at all - let's hope the airframe has found a rather more 'favourable' resting place, for all concerned...

Riv'
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Mir
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 10:44 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
The only explanation that makes sense is a fire, are we to consider that its progression was very fast and it destroyed basically most of the communications capability of the flight in less than four minutes.

The curious thing is that if the fire were started in the avionics bay I would expect the avionics smoke warning to come on before the lav smoke warning, when the reverse occurred. A fire in the cockpit could explain the lav smoke warning coming on first, but would not readily explain the SEC and FCU messages.

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Revelation
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sat May 21, 2016 10:50 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 104):
on a computer system designed in the mid 80's?? doubt it. You remember what we were using in the mid 80's. Windows 3.1 was 't even there yet. And the likes of IBM used com ports to network not ethernet.

Let's not thrash about here. If an Airbus avionics computer wanted/needed access to Ethernet it could easily have been engineered by now, despite its origins in the 1980s. I was an IBM employee in the 80s and all of our product lines could connect to Ethernet one way or the other, despite the company's strong preference for Token Ring back in those days. There were all kinds of different networks back in that time frame, and if the customer was willing to pay for it, we'd do almost any kind of interface they wanted.
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777Jet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 12:41 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 93):
Quoting usxguy (Reply 91):
far fetched... but is it possible that space junk or a meteor hit it? the ACARS messages could be in response to something HITTING that side of the plane but not destroying it.

How much money are you betting on that?

There is a statistical argument against this: Since decades, things with wings are gracing the skies, but none has ever been hit by a meteorite.

FWIW, IIRC this is the closest something from space has been known of getting near a flying commercial aircraft:

http://avherald.com/h?article=3f1c5718&opt=0

""The crew of a Lan Chile Airbus A340, enroute from Santiago, Chile to Auckland, New Zealand, observed some space debris hurtling across the sky at approx. 10pm (local NZ time), the rumbling noise of the debris could even be heard over the noise of the aircraft. The crew notified Auckland Oceanic Center, that the debris passed the airplane just about 5 nm before the plane. The airplane landed safely in Auckland several hours later.""
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wisborg
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:24 am

The following article in Sydney Morning Herald has some background information on the role of the EgyptAir in-flight security guards.

Quote:

EgyptAir security guards differ in several respects from the undercover air marshals who travel on American airlines. The Egyptian guards are unarmed and wear an understated uniform consisting of a dark blazer and a white shirt. When called on, they help crew members deal with unruly passengers. They come from a wide variety of backgrounds and earn a moderate wage of about $400 a month.

Normally, one security officer sits in the first economy row, behind business class, and the other is at the rear of the aircraft, two members of an EgyptAir crew said. During stopovers at foreign airports, the security officers are usually responsible for searching the workers who clean the plane and checking the credentials of all crew members or employees who board. They do not monitor the baggage handlers who load the plane's hold.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/egyptair...20160521-gp0rkm.html#ixzz49LM2qTUU
 
F9Animal
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting wisborg (Reply 109):
The following article in Sydney Morning Herald has some background information on the role of the EgyptAir in-flight security guards.

Quote:

EgyptAir security guards differ in several respects from the undercover air marshals who travel on American airlines. The Egyptian guards are unarmed and wear an understated uniform consisting of a dark blazer and a white shirt. When called on, they help crew members deal with unruly passengers. They come from a wide variety of backgrounds and earn a moderate wage of about $400 a month.

Normally, one security officer sits in the first economy row, behind business class, and the other is at the rear of the aircraft, two members of an EgyptAir crew said. During stopovers at foreign airports, the security officers are usually responsible for searching the workers who clean the plane and checking the credentials of all crew members or employees who board. They do not monitor the baggage handlers who load the plane's hold.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/egyptair...20160521-gp0rkm.html#ixzz49LM2qTUU


I can't wrap my mind around the $400 a month salary! Is that even a liveable wage? What do the pilots and flight attendants make a month?

I would love to fly around doing a job like that though! LOL! I would need more than $400 a month though.
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chrisp390
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:58 am

The evidence everyone else has presented above seems to point to it being caused by an electrical fire. My thought is the electrical fire originated somewhere in the right of the cockpit then caused something to explode very quickly, leading to a large hole in the right of the plane. The pilot then trying to regain control swung the plane left and right before either passing out or being killed by the fire and the plane plunged towards the ocean.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 2:20 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 110):
I can't wrap my mind around the $400 a month salary! Is that even a liveable wage?

I'm having a hard time finding a number I'm really comfortable with, but from what I've been able to see, average income in Egypt was about $5,600US, so $400 a month / $4,800 year isn't too bad.
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mandala499
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 2:31 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
As usual, Buddy, you have a knack for complexities... And here, we have one which could go very far.

   Not just complexities, but also at times, very anti-mainstream, especially in accidents like this. Within the first 24 hours, many on TV around the world were screaming "terrorism", luckily, AlJazeera, RussiaToday, ChannelNewsAsia, and TRTworld allowed me to voice "terrorism is possible, but the facts at the moment points us away from it, towards technical issues."   

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
1/- Electrical fire in the Avionics Bay :

I poured over the QRH and what was FCOM3 and found that... DC Bus 2 fail is interesting.
Thanks on the EMER ELEC CONFIG... I'll have a read.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
2/- Fire in the cockpit :

Yes, this is the other alternative I've been pondering over the past few days too. And those who were familiar with fan problems associated with cockpits full of smokers know the flow...   

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
But I've just been told that some very serious airlines have now included a "LIthium Fire in the cockpit" procedure in their QRHs.

Have a bucket of ice-cold water ready in the cockpit at all times then...   
I was selling EFBs with Ni-MH battery back-up a few years ago, and I was always slapped back by airlines saying, "it ain't lithium..."
Look where we are now...

Quoting Mir (Reply 106):
The curious thing is that if the fire were started in the avionics bay I would expect the avionics smoke warning to come on before the lav smoke warning, when the reverse occurred. A fire in the cockpit could explain the lav smoke warning coming on first, but would not readily explain the SEC and FCU messages.

I wouldn't take the order of the ACARS message as gospel apart from the minute that it was sent. Within that one minute, unless we have the second in which it was received, the order isn't gospel. We learnt this in AF447 too!
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hivue
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 2:46 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
the right window(s) anti-icing is ruled by the WHC - window heating computer

A computer for window heat? What happened to the good old days of an off/on switch?  

I'm assuming there is a possibility that an issue with the FO's window heat could be at the root of this, right? When I think of window heating I'm thinking of lots of amps.
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litz
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:00 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 89):
If depressurization occurs from a blast inside the plane, will it certainly be relayed by Acars?

Doing some digging, reveals the following incident report where an A-320 depressurized ... https://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=567

In this case, the ECAM warning was "Cabin Pressure Excess Altitude" (presuming this is a "clear english" interpretation of an actual ECAM msg).
 
abnormal
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:18 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 106):

The second line in the AVNCS SMOKE procedure is IF PERCEPTIBLE SMOKE IMMEDIATELY APPLY wherein the use of the word perceptible is deliberate as the avionics smoke detectors are take a long time to go off. It's not unreasonable to expect that smoke could have entered the fwd lav before the detectors in the AVIONICS bay were even triggered.
 
alfa164
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:24 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 113):
Within the first 24 hours, many on TV around the world were screaming "terrorism", luckily, AlJazeera, RussiaToday, ChannelNewsAsia, and TRTworld allowed me to voice "terrorism is possible, but the facts at the moment points us away from it, towards technical issues."

Actually, Russian TV was airing a report that this specific flight number had been targeted for "murder" a few days before the incident herein... a report that grossly misread the situation.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 111):
The pilot then trying to regain control swung the plane left and right before either passing out or being killed by the fire and the plane plunged towards the ocean.

The 90-degree turn is standard procedure to get out of an airlane when an emergency occurs. Pilots are trained to make that maneuver during emergency descent in cases of depressurization, smoke in the cockpit, or some similar situation when the craft remains under control but an onboard emergency occurs, to take the craft from an air traffic lane. Normally, once having descended, the aircraft would then take a 90-degree turn the opposite direction, to return to a heading similar to its original route. Why the 360-degree turn to the right was made is not immediately obvious; it is sometimes initiated to increase drag, and thus cause more rapid descent - but that is pure speculation at this time.

The fact that the turns were precisely 90 degrees left and then and 360-degree right turns indicates the airplane was under control during those time; damaged control surfaces would not initiate such precise turns. For this period of time, at least, it appears these were deliberate actions being taken.

None of this explains what caused the incident, but I hope it does help clarify why the maneuvers indicate the plane was under control, at least for the immediate time following its departure from its planned path. The big question now becomes: what precipitated this?

[Edited 2016-05-21 20:44:24]
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YVRLTN
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:28 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
1/- Electrical fire in the Avionics Bay :

Is this accessible from the cockpit? If so I assume a crew member would have to leave their seat.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
he right window(s) anti-icing

Do the side windows have heat, or is it just the main windshield? Or is that what you are talking about, the right hand pane of it?
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Mir
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:30 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 113):
I wouldn't take the order of the ACARS message as gospel apart from the minute that it was sent.

They are separated by minute, however. Lav smoke at :26, avionics smoke at :27.

Quoting abnormal (Reply 116):
The second line in the AVNCS SMOKE procedure is IF PERCEPTIBLE SMOKE IMMEDIATELY APPLY wherein the use of the word perceptible is deliberate as the avionics smoke detectors are take a long time to go off. It's not unreasonable to expect that smoke could have entered the fwd lav before the detectors in the AVIONICS bay were even triggered.

As I said, if the fire was in the cockpit, that's reasonable. But if the fire was in the avionics bay, then it should not trigger the lav smoke detector because of the ventilation pattern of the air.

-Mir
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litz
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 119):
They are separated by minute, however. Lav smoke at :26, avionics smoke at :27.

We don't have timestamps for the seconds ...

What if the Lav smoke was actually :26:58 and the avionics was :27:01 ...

No real way to pull a conclusion here without better definition on the timestamps.
 
mandala499
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:42 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 117):
Russian TV was airing a report that this specific flight number had been targeted for "murder" a few days before the incident herein... a report that grossly misread the situation.

Sure, but at least they didn't solely spewed out that rubbish without providing airtime for those saying it's not terrorism. RT called me many times that day but I could only get 1 slot in... they wanted to do like at least 4 slots throughout... the times just weren't right for me...

Quoting Mir (Reply 119):
They are separated by minute, however. Lav smoke at :26, avionics smoke at :27.

I agree that this is a difficult one to comprehend because of what you said afterwards:

Quoting Mir (Reply 119):
As I said, if the fire was in the cockpit, that's reasonable. But if the fire was in the avionics bay, then it should not trigger the lav smoke detector because of the ventilation pattern of the air.

Anyone got a diagram of the circulation flows?
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Finn350
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:50 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 118):
Do the side windows have heat, or is it just the main windshield? Or is that what you are talking about, the right hand pane of it?

The six windows of the cockpit are named as follows:
- left fixed window
- left sliding window
- left windshield
- right windshield
- right sliding window
- right fixed window

The relevant ACARS messages are:
- failure of the right window heater
- failure of the right sliding window sensor
- failure of the right fixed window sensor

The first message is ambiguous, as it doesn't contain a reference to a specific window. Both windows should have heaters, as they have sensors. The failures might be caused by the relevant wires short-circuiting due to a fire.
 
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 102):
I never stated that the black boxes were found, or made any sort of speculation about them. I simply relayed that the info from the linked report which says they were located. That to me would suggest they've tracked down the pings and are attempting to retrieve the boxes. The media frequently gets leaks from sources close to the investigation and reports their claims before the accident investigation officials confirm the information leaked in those reports is in fact correct.

Sorry, it was never my intention to imply you had stated such a thing. Only to clarify whether the CBS update from earlier in the day might or might not have indicated that the recorders had been located; rather than having a repeat of the situation in which certain news outlets (& I use the term loosely)were reporting that ISIS / DAESH had claimed responsibility when, in reality, this has not occurred.
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zeke
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:30 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 121):
Anyone got a diagram of the circulation flows?

The ECAM AVIONICS SMOKE means smoke has been detected in the extraction duct of the avionics ventilation system. The Avionics ventilation system is not just the avionics bay, it is also for cooling all of the electrical components on the flight deck including the instrument panel (i.e. the display units and the mode control panel), the overhead panels, and the circuit breakers. The air used to cool the cockpit instruments and circuit breaker panels comes from the cockpit. The air used for the avionics bay comes from the air conditioning duct.

Be careful jumping to conclusion that AVIONICS SMOKE means smoke generated in the avionics bay, it can also mean smoke inside the cockpit being drawn in during the normal ventilation process into the extract duct generating the ECAM.
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:32 am

Quoting GlenP (Reply 87):
US Government sources have already stated that no flares/flashed/explosions

This sources also knew immediately that MH 17 was shot down by a russian BUK missile.
Too bad that they can't look into the future with their magic.
I would be surprised if they would ever find the CVR and FDR.
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zeke
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:44 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 122):
The failures might be caused by the relevant wires short-circuiting due to a fire.

Or simply the RHS window heat computer failed.
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mandala499
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:48 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 124):
The ECAM AVIONICS SMOKE means smoke has been detected in the extraction duct of the avionics ventilation system. The Avionics ventilation system is not just the avionics bay, it is also for cooling all of the electrical components on the flight deck including the instrument panel (i.e. the display units and the mode control panel), the overhead panels, and the circuit breakers. The air used to cool the cockpit instruments and circuit breaker panels comes from the cockpit. The air used for the avionics bay comes from the air conditioning duct.

Yeah, found it in the FCOM on AirCond/Press... But failed to find what supplies the air condition ducts, is it bleed air or a combo of bleed air and recirculated cabin air?

Quoting zeke (Reply 124):
Be careful jumping to conclusion that AVIONICS SMOKE means smoke generated in the avionics bay, it can also mean smoke inside the cockpit being drawn in during the normal ventilation process into the extract duct generating the ECAM.

Yes, what's interesting is that the avionics bay air doesn't get circulated back, it gets extracted to the cargo compartment or overboard (or the skin heat exchanger and gets recirculated in the extraction system)... Now, where does the cargo air get sent to? Overboard or some of it get recirculated again?

The reason why I ask this and the air cond ducts, is that in abnormal and smoke modes, aircond ducts supply the extraction system...

Quoting litz (Reply 120):
What if the Lav smoke was actually :26:58 and the avionics was :27:01

Let's not forget that the avionics smoke warning require the smoke detector detect smoke for 5 continuous seconds before activating the warning.

[Edited 2016-05-21 22:51:07]
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OMP777X
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:53 am

Quoting litz (Reply 120):
Quoting GlenP (Reply 123):
Sorry, it was never my intention to imply you had stated such a thing. Only to clarify whether the CBS update from earlier in the day might or might not have indicated that the recorders had been located

I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification. Based on what I read elsewhere it supposedly is being reported in the Egyptian media that the divers located the boxes, but haven't retrieved them yet (again, according to the leak by someone in the know).
"Happy Flighting!"
 
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Finn350
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 7:09 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 126):
Or simply the RHS window heat computer failed.

Possible, although the computer retained at least some functionality in order to be able to generate the error messages.
 
Mir
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 7:18 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 127):
Yeah, found it in the FCOM on AirCond/Press... But failed to find what supplies the air condition ducts, is it bleed air or a combo of bleed air and recirculated cabin air?

Seems like under normal conditions in flight the air it comes from the avionics bay itself, is directed over the avionics equipment, then is either exhausted into the cargo compartment or goes back to be cooled by passing it next to the aircraft skin before re-entering the loop to be directed over the avionics equipment again. Air from the air conditioning duct is only used in the event of a failure of one of the fans that draw air through the loop.

-Mir
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mila
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 7:19 am

Are there wires in such a old plane halogen free(LSZH)?
 
mandala499
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 7:22 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 130):
Air from the air conditioning duct is only used in the event of a failure of one of the fans that draw air through the loop.

Yes, but what supplies the air conditioning duct and also what is the air circulation of the cargo compartment?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
AYVN
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 7:46 am

Do we know for sure that ACARS and ATC timestamps are in sync?
I would think that some kind of mayday message would have been sent if failure messages (including fire) begin about 3 minutes before last radar contact with ATC while plane staying FL370 all that time.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
6. At 3:29:40 AM, the flight was lost from ATC radar, almost 7 nm southeast of KUMBI (KUMBI lies on the FIR boundary). The civilian ATC radar track shows that the plane never departed FL370
 
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LTU330
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:20 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 118):

No access to the Avionic Compartments from the A320 Cockpit is possible.

The theory about some sort of high energy fire (say from a Lithium battery of a Laptop) on the RH side of the Cockpit seems more plausible than anything else at the moment. Does anyone know if Egyptair use Tablets for their SIDS/STARS charts etc ? At my airline we have tablets that are mounted in the sliding window area and are not powered from the aircraft directly, as in they are charged like normal Laptops. On the 737s these are held in place by suction pads attached on to the sliding window. At this moment I cannot visualise in my head if it is the same on the A320 fleet now as there used to be brackets for these, but still they are/were mounted directly by the sliding Windows.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:23 am

Quoting AYVN (Reply 133):
begin about 3 minutes before last radar contact with ATC while plane staying FL370 all that time.

1. I'm not totally sure about the altitudes. From what I've read, the civilian side never saw an excursion from FL370, and only the Greek Air Force, after accessing the logs of the primary radar returns, noticed a descent (and these turns). I welcome if anybody could check my synopsis.

Quoting AYVN (Reply 133):
if failure messages (including fire) begin about 3 minutes before last radar contact with ATC

Note your words "last radar contact". The last attempt to *talk* with the crew failed 2 minutes 40 seconds before the last radar contact. Most probably, this just shows that the crew was occupied with whatever happened aboard, and didn't bother to respond (which is normal, by the way).


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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seahawk
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:47 am

I would not discount the option of a incendiary or WP grenade used as a "bomb",
 
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777Jet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:54 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 136):
I would not discount the option of a incendiary or WP grenade used as a "bomb",

Left behind in the forward galley or lav by somebody on the ground, or, with the culprit actually on the flight?
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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seahawk
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:04 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 137):

Left behind in the forward galley or lav by somebody on the ground, or, with the culprit actually on the flight?

Or with a timer, the sight of a plane trailing fire over Cairo would be a huge message.
 
LandSweetLand
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:13 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 138):
Or with a timer, the sight of a plane trailing fire over Cairo would be a huge message.

A giant fireball of jetfuel blowing out windows at CDG and crippling air traffic would send an even bigger message if you ask me.
 
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:17 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 138):
Or with a timer, the sight of a plane trailing fire over Cairo would be a huge message.

The thing that still bothers me about any terrorism scenario is that, as yet, no such group has attempted to claim responsibility for the loss of the aircraft.

Yes, the Egyptian authorities are working on the basis that this will be assessed as being the result of a terrorist attack, until proven otherwise, but all other interested parties are still stating that it is too early to say what the root cause was, or even what their initial assessment of the most likely cause is. This does leave me wondering whether the Egyptians are trying to prevent the sort of criticism they came in for, when they stated that it was too early to infer a terrorist attack as the cause of the loss of the Metrojet A321?
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anfromme
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:17 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 138):
Or with a timer, the sight of a plane trailing fire over Cairo would be a huge message.

I somehow find the speculation about terrorist motives or especially supposed "messages" they send a bit unsettling because it seems to be a prerequisite for terrorist attacks to actually have the desired effect.

I also find it strange that, with indications so far pointing to fire on board, which has brought down quite a few cargo planes in particular, even on this, an aviation forum, a lot of participants immediately try to find an angle of fitting a fire on board into a terrorist narrative.
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Pihero
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:34 am

Quoting abnormal (Reply 116):
the use of the word perceptible is deliberate as the avionics smoke detectors are take a long time to go off. It's not unreasonable to expect that smoke could have entered the fwd lav before the detectors in the AVIONICS bay were even triggered.

The word "perceptible" has been carefully chosen : here it means, crudely : " if someone smells a *burning* odour", as our sense of smell is capable of discriminating very few molecules with an *odour stamp*... it is a lot more sensitive than a smoke detector.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 118):

Do the side windows have heat, or is it just the main windshield?

All cockpit windows are heated ; the windshields have two settings : Normal / Low . The side windows - fixed or sliding - only have one
Contrail designer
 
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seahawk
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:35 am

I just wanted to point out that bomb does not need to be a purely explosive device.
 
Guillermo
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 10:17 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 141):
I also find it strange that, with indications so far pointing to fire on board, which has brought down quite a few cargo planes in particular, even on this, an aviation forum, a lot of participants immediately try to find an angle of fitting a fire on board into a terrorist narrative.

Maybe because is really sad and hard to accept (though seemingly possible) that an on board fire, probably started with an ordinary battery of an ordinary laptop, could trigger a chain of events that could produce such havoc to bring down, in a matter of minutes, a modern passenger aircraft and kill all the souls on board. This was not a cargo plane, and as stated before, apparently no freight was loaded on board.

IF (huge IF) the battery theory would be identified as the triggering event for this disaster, it will be even more sad and hard to think that maybe a battery-less laptop, or even a simple but well crafted steel suitcase or container for the off-duty laptop could probably prevented this tragic outcome.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 10:24 am

I am concerned with what appears to have been a 'leak' of the ACARS info. Some, like me, thought it may have been a allowed release of info but apparently it wasn't. If the ACARS info was leaked, who would have done so and who would gain or benefit from such a release ? It also raises questions as to the accuracy of that info.

To me someone at Egypt Air or the Egyptian government investigators or higher up in government there released the ACARS info to try to deflect from the possibility of this loss from terrorism with all of its ramifications to the Egyptian government, economy, tourism and so on. It also raises questions of completeness of the info, only releasing just enough to pull attention to a possible act of terrorism. This is made worse by the apparently conflicting info that the 'Black Boxes, the recorders 'have been located'. Then you have a bad history of accuracy and proper investigative process along with government pressure in Egypt from past aircraft losses involving Egypt or Egypt Air.

There is a possibility someone at French security, especially at CDG would benefit from this not being a terrorism act that was set up there and plausible due to the recent terror attacks in Paris and nearby areas of Europe.
 
EMAman
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 10:37 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 111):
The evidence everyone else has presented above seems to point to it being caused by an electrical fire. My thought is the electrical fire originated somewhere in the right of the cockpit then caused something to explode very quickly, leading to a large hole in the right of the plane. The pilot then trying to regain control swung the plane left and right before either passing out or being killed by the fire and the plane plunged towards the ocean.

What evidence do you have of a large hole in the plane? the ACARS don't mention a decompression and in any case, seems to be under control at least for a while. The manoeuvres seen on the Greek primary radar are SOP - turn off the air lane at 90 degrees and then the 360 is a recognised manoeuvre whilst trying to resolve a problem. If there was a decompression this would surely have come through ACARS? The first error messages are that electrical equipment is not working.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 143):
I just wanted to point out that bomb does not need to be a purely explosive device.

Yes could be an incendiary device, or even faulty maintenance in itself could be a form of terrorism if it was intended to cause a crash!
 
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 10:43 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
To me someone at Egypt Air or the Egyptian government investigators or higher up in government there released the ACARS info to try to deflect from the possibility of this loss from terrorism with all of its ramifications to the Egyptian government, economy, tourism and so on. It also raises questions of completeness of the info, only releasing just enough to pull attention to a possible act of terrorism. This is made worse by the apparently conflicting info that the 'Black Boxes, the recorders 'have been located'. Then you have a bad history of accuracy and proper investigative process along with government pressure in Egypt from past aircraft losses involving Egypt or Egypt Air.

Sorry, but the Egyptians were the first to state that they are working on the initial assessment that a terror attack is the most likely cause of the loss of this aircraft and, judging by some of the comments on various news sites &, for example, Trip Advisor, the damage had already been done long before the ACARS messages were leaked. The French, US & every other interested Government, has so far resisted stating that terrorism is their prime route of investigation; apart of course from Russia who claimed to know that terrorists carried out the attack; they seem to have gone quiet on that front, for now.

Perhaps it was a case, on their part, of avoiding a repeat of the allegations of a cover-up, that followed the Metrojet attack, but it appears that they are going to be damned whatever they do.

(Really depressing is that, on a now removed, UK tabloid website, a comment was posted to the effect that, "Not saying anything, but. There were 2 Iraqis onboard. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.")
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
mandala499
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 11:38 am

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 134):
At this moment I cannot visualise in my head if it is the same on the A320 fleet now as there used to be brackets for these, but still they are/were mounted directly by the sliding Windows.

As far as I know their 737 fleet has the Class 3 EFBs, their A320s don't.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 135):
I welcome if anybody could check my synopsis.

I got an update:
Last ADS-B data was at 00:29:33.558 with 6 data receptions by ADS-B groundstations over the last 3 seconds of detection. It was tracking at 136 degrees.
The aircraft was consistently tracking at 139 degrees until 00:29:09.000, after which the aircraft had a small track change to 136... which was held from 00:29:18:776 until the end.
Autopilot switched off or changed from managed mode to heading select mode?

For:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
To me someone at Egypt Air or the Egyptian government investigators or higher up in government there released the ACARS info to try to deflect from the possibility of this loss from terrorism with all of its ramifications to the Egyptian government, economy, tourism and so on. It also raises questions of completeness of the info, only releasing just enough to pull attention to a possible act of terrorism. This is made worse by the apparently conflicting info that the 'Black Boxes, the recorders 'have been located'. Then you have a bad history of accuracy and proper investigative process along with government pressure in Egypt from past aircraft losses involving Egypt or Egypt Air.
and:

Quoting GlenP (Reply 147):
Sorry, but the Egyptians were the first to state that they are working on the initial assessment that a terror attack is the most likely cause of the loss of this aircraft and, judging by some of the comments on various news sites &, for example, Trip Advisor, the damage had already been done long before the ACARS messages were leaked. The French, US & every other interested Government, has so far resisted stating that terrorism is their prime route of investigation; apart of course from Russia who claimed to know that terrorists carried out the attack; they seem to have gone quiet on that front, for now.

Sorry, but I followed the media coverage from after 3rd hours to the 12th hour of this aircraft going missing. From the initial announcement the Egyptian government stated they were looking at technical issues and stated they were going to scrutinize the technical records of the aircraft, as they expect this would be caused by technical issues, but also stated they can not rule out terrorism. This was the "it has to be terrorism" bandwagon joined the media coverage of MS804.

It was funny how some media were saying FSB has information that this was a terror attack, while at the same time Russia Today was saying what I was saying above... I wonder who's the Putin pet in MS804's case then...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 11:56 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 148):
Sorry, but I followed the media coverage from after 3rd hours to the 12th hour of this aircraft going missing. From the initial announcement the Egyptian government stated they were looking at technical issues and stated they were going to scrutinize the technical records of the aircraft, as they expect this would be caused by technical issues, but also stated they can not rule out terrorism. This was the "it has to be terrorism" bandwagon joined the media coverage of MS804.

My mistake.

The BBC live coverage misq1uoed the Minister of Civil Aviation as stating that they were regarding the cause of the aircraft being lost as due to an act of terrorism. However, the local, Al Ahram, love coverage stated the following:

"1:45pm Egypt's Civil Aviation Minister Sherif Fathy said in a press conference that Egypt does not refute the assumption that the missing EgyptAir aircraft might have crashed due to a terrorist attack or a malfunction or any other scenario."
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 12:14 pm

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjDN2fnUYAQR3F2.jpg

Airbus explains the ACARS messages.

[Edited 2016-05-22 05:14:57]

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