LTC8K6
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 12:18 pm

So the smoke detectors are optical, and could be triggered by decompression fog?

We don't have the seconds on the timing, just to the minute, so the detector signals could be only seconds apart.
 
Rivet42
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:22 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 148):
The aircraft was consistently tracking at 139 degrees until 00:29:09.000, after which the aircraft had a small track change to 136... which was held from 00:29:18:776 until the end.

Crucially(?), that coincides with the warning messages

00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT

Greek ATC claim loss of radar contact at 00:29 (allegedly still at FL370),
Greek defence minister reports left turn at around 00:37, followed by descent and/in right 360 turn
Final (military radar) contact lost at 00:45...

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 151):
So the smoke detectors are optical, and could be triggered by decompression fog?

But wouldn't decompression result in immediate speed loss (caused by drag, at least), and thus altitude loss? Neither appear from reported data.

Riv'
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smokeybandit
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:38 pm

So, window ice sensor faults? Then smoke alerts. Then the computers start throwing faults.

Maybe they did hit something that penetrated the cockpit? Maybe that space junk notion isn't so far fetched?

[Edited 2016-05-22 06:40:00]
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:48 pm

In the end, like I said in Part 1, they need to find the CVR and FDR black boxes as soon as possible. Just the way the recording ends tells us a lot about what happened (if I remember correctly, when PA 103 was destroyed by a bomb in 1988, both the CVR and FDR suddenly stopped recording, though we heard a distinct "thud" right at the end of the CVR recording).
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 1:52 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
I am concerned with what appears to have been a 'leak' of the ACARS info. Some, like me, thought it may have been a allowed release of info but apparently it wasn't. If the ACARS info was leaked, who would have done so and who would gain or benefit from such a release ?

Even if it is true that someone spread this piece of information with a special intention / agenda, I am very confident it will not help because once FDR and CVR have been analysed by BEA etc. (in combination with analysing the wreckage) we all will know the truth.
 
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zeke
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 2:31 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 127):
combo of bleed air and recirculated cabin air?

Depends on the cabin fans, if they are in auto its mixed, if it is set to off non recirculated.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 127):
Overboard or some of it get recirculated again?

Overboard normally, you dont want gas from a cargo being circulated into the cabin.
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holzmann
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 2:46 pm

Have we ruled out pilot suicide being an option? Who ever did this...if anyone did this...they waited until the AC was well over a wide expanse of water to do it. If I were a terrorist, I wouldn't be that *kind.* In fact, I would want to do the opposite to inflict as much mayhem, no?
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:11 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 150):

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjDN2fnUYAQR3F2.jpg

Airbus explains the ACARS messages.

Which includes the interesting statement that with this limited data, the analysis of these events does not allow to construct a sequence of events that would lead to the loss of flight MS804.

Come on, a.net! Here is our challenge. Explain the events!

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 152):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 148):
The aircraft was consistently tracking at 139 degrees until 00:29:09.000, after which the aircraft had a small track change to 136... which was held from 00:29:18:776 until the end.

Crucially(?), that coincides with the warning messages

00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT

Greek ATC claim loss of radar contact at 00:29 (allegedly still at FL370),
Greek defence minister reports left turn at around 00:37, followed by descent and/in right 360 turn
Final (military radar) contact lost at 00:45...

00:45 would be 19 minutes after the first ACARS warning. I find that a very long time. Do we have confirmation of the 00:45 time?
 
Winterapfel
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:27 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 158):
00:45 would be 19 minutes after the first ACARS warning. I find that a very long time. Do we have confirmation of the 00:45 time?

To the contrary, if you read the statement on Avherald.com, you'll find that this has been updated to 02:30L
 
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:30 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 156):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 127):
Overboard or some of it get recirculated again?

Overboard normally, you dont want gas from a cargo being circulated into the cabin.

The standard A320 has no fwd cargo air circulation system.
The air from the avionics cooling goes to the space between the cargo hold sidewall and the fuselage, where it mixes with the air coming down from the cabin, This air arrives in the space behind the fwd freight bay where the recirculation fans and filters and the mixing drum are located. So in normal circumstances any air exhausted from the avionics cooling can reenter the cabin. With an avionics cooling fault the crew will select override and the air will exhaust overboard.

The fwd cargo hold is a sealed compartment with no air circulating inside it.
 
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zeke
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 160):
The standard A320 has no fwd cargo air circulation system.

You are quoting the wrong person, go back a few more posts you will see a Boeing pilot making this statement

Quoting Mir (Reply 130):
Seems like under normal conditions in flight the air it comes from the avionics bay itself, is directed over the avionics equipment, then is either exhausted into the cargo compartment or goes back to be cooled by passing it next to the aircraft skin before re-entering the loop to be directed over the avionics equipment again.

I just answered the mandala499 question where the air from the cargo ventilation goes. Also indicated that if the cabin fan are not in auto the air is not recirculated.
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JetBuddy
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 4:07 pm

Does anyone know if the aircraft departed on time, or if it was delayed?
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 4:42 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 160):
This air arrives in the space behind the fwd freight bay where the recirculation fans and filters and the mixing drum are located. So in normal circumstances any air exhausted from the avionics cooling can reenter the cabin.

I find this very hard to believe. Certification wise what happens below the main deck is supposed to stay below the main deck. During certification of an airplane, the FAA tests to ensure any smoke event in the forward avionics area or cargo bays doesn't migrate to the cockpit or the passenger section. It's not any easy test to pass on the first try.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
If the ACARS info was leaked, who would have done so and who would gain or benefit from such a release ?

Probably somebody sick of the terrorism scenarios being floated in the media. I will say you make an interesting point, which is that there's probably a reason behind this leak. I don't see why someone would intentionally leak this info unless it was to pour water on people like Trump and the statements they made immediately after the crash. And that suggests to me that the investigation is going in a different direction.

I doubt there's anything to be "gained" from it - it's not some conspiracy. It's just probably someone sick of misinformation, in the absence of anything official.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
It also raises questions as to the accuracy of that info.

No it doesn't, because it was confirmed by multiple official sources immediately afterwards as being genuine.
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hivue
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 164):
unless it was to pour water on people like Trump and the statements they made immediately after the crash

Don't forget Hillary:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...rorism_us_573dfd45e4b0646cbeec6d9e
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 5:47 pm

Quoting Winterapfel (Reply 159):
To the contrary, if you read the statement on Avherald.com, you'll find that this has been updated to 02:30L

Interesting. So, http://avherald.com/h?article=4987fb09&opt=0 does say:

Quote:

On May 19th 2016 at about 07:40L (05:40Z) Egyptair updated their statement saying, that the contact with the aircraft was lost 280km (151nm) from the Coast of Egypt at 02:30L (00:30Z).

I find this very vague though. I cannot find a statement about the time the radar contact was lost. Except the one that puts it relative to passing the ATC borders.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 113):
Not just complexities, but also at times, very anti-mainstream, especially in accidents like this. Within the first 24 hours, many on TV around the world were screaming "terrorism", luckily, AlJazeera, RussiaToday, ChannelNewsAsia, and TRTworld allowed me to voice "terrorism is possible, but the facts at the moment points us away from it, towards technical issues."

While I've been pretty circumspect about RT in the past, it seems their coverage on the FlyDubai crash at Rostov was timely and accurate. I know if they are using you as a source their viewers are getting good solid information.

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 128):
Based on what I read elsewhere it supposedly is being reported in the Egyptian media that the divers located the boxes, but haven't retrieved them yet (again, according to the leak by someone in the know).

That seems hard to believe. The sea is said to be around 3,000 meters (9,000+ feet) deep in the area where the airplane crashed, so no diver is going to be locating any boxes, it'll have to be a submersible vehicle.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
I am concerned with what appears to have been a 'leak' of the ACARS info. Some, like me, thought it may have been a allowed release of info but apparently it wasn't. If the ACARS info was leaked, who would have done so and who would gain or benefit from such a release ? It also raises questions as to the accuracy of that info.

The info is translated via satellite and there are countless ground stations that can pick up the data. http://www.theweakestlink.es/index.php/tag/acars/ says that the data is not currently encrypted, and says that the equipment to capture the signal is within the budget of a hobbiest. So, all it takes is the right person tuned in with the right equipment.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 150):
Airbus explains the ACARS messages.

The explanation isn't really new, but of course seeing it on Airbus stationary confirms its validity. It seems to suggest that the first message about the window just announces the anti-ice failure, then the two following messages tell us which sensors picked up the problem. It also states that the smoke is detected by optical detectors, which answers a question asked earlier.
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 6:32 pm

NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/wo...gyptair-jets-black-boxes.html?_r=0

"the search crews have yet to locate the main body of the plane and its cockpit data and voice recorders, commonly known as the black boxes, which they hope will explain what caused the Airbus A320 carrying 66 people to plunge from the sky as it traveled from Paris to Cairo early Thursday."

And

"A statement from the Islamic State on Saturday failed to mention the EgyptAir crash, confounding speculation that the group, which claimed to have been behind the crash of a Russian airliner in Sinai last October, might have been responsible."

So, they're not saying one way or the other if anyone has or has not detected any black box pings...

[Edited 2016-05-22 11:36:18]
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OMP777X
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 6:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 167):
That seems hard to believe. The sea is said to be around 3,000 meters (9,000+ feet) deep in the area where the airplane crashed, so no diver is going to be locating any boxes, it'll have to be a submersible vehicle.

I assumed they used the word "divers" to mean the remote controlled submersibles, but I can see how you'd interpret it to mean scuba divers. Also, when it comes to things being lost in translation, it seems someone must have leaked info that the subs were coming in to be used to locate/find and retrieve the black boxes, and it may have been accisentally reported as a mix matched combination of "We have divers going in that are used to locate the boxes." and "Divers are at the location, but haven't found the boxes yet."... which came out in a report as "Divers located the boxes but haven't found them yet."
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AirBoat
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 7:20 pm

just a question?
I assume there are vents in the passenger cabin floor so that cabin pressure can equalize with the cargo hold to prevent a floor collapse when a cargo door opens in flight.
Does the cabin air con pressurize the cabin and then bleed through to the cargo hold?
 
Winterapfel
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:05 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 166):
I cannot find a statement about the time the radar contact was lost. Except the one that puts it relative to passing the ATC borders.

Updated timeliness and more details about the final minutes on Avherald now...
 
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Aesma
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:29 pm

From the evening TV news here 2 US and 1 French companies specialized in deep underwater operations have been contracted. I doubt they're on the scene yet.
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4holer
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 8:39 pm

The ACARS messages in this case remind me of the sensor reports that were coming in during the Space Shuttle Columbia re-entry
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YVRLTN
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:25 pm

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 134):
No access to the Avionic Compartments from the A320 Cockpit is possible.

Thanks, I thought so, in which case if there was a fire in there it would be impossible for the crew to do anything to stop it. I assume it is not included in the walk around to look in these bays?

While people are thinking incendiary device which is a possibility, its quite possible there could be something in there far less benign like FOD after mx or even a rodent or wasps or something causing a short circuit or something else to interfere with the normal working of the systems.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 122):
The first message is ambiguous, as it doesn't contain a reference to a specific window. Both windows should have heaters, as they have sensors. The failures might be caused by the relevant wires short-circuiting due to a fire.

Thats what I was thinking, maybe there was not an actual issue with the window wiring itself, just the wiring pertaining to them in the bay. IIRC there are more than one electronics bay on the 320, it would be interesting to know if the wiring of the two items that showed up on the ACARS (windows & lav) be located maybe next to each other in the same bay, then what was next to that to give us a clue what was the next to fail.

Quoting EMAman (Reply 146):
The manoeuvres seen on the Greek primary radar are SOP - turn off the air lane at 90 degrees and then the 360 is a recognised manoeuvre whilst trying to resolve a problem

If there was a smoke situation in the cockpit, the next maneuver after this would be an emergency descent to a breathable FL without the masks right? Seems to me this was initiated and for whatever reason they never recovered from it.
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flyingbird
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 9:52 pm

Quoting Winterapfel (Reply 171):
Updated timeliness and more details about the final minutes on Avherald now...

I would not trust avherald for timing. They have been incorrect before including metrojet and mh17 timing.
FR24, Flightware, Planefinder, ACARS and official reports says 00:29 was last signal from MS804. The 3 flight trackers agree on 00:29:3x as last signal. So I'm 100% sure that the transponder went of at that minute. If it would fly on crusing altitude for another 8 minutes it would get much further than 20-40km. Everything indicates that 00:29 was a very dramatic minute were they probably had a complete electric failure which probably triggered a dramatic emergency descent and crash.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 10:36 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 44):
we all know that in flight hacking has occurred and was demonstrated by an American security firm owner before he was greeted by the FBI

we all "know" nothing of this sort. All speculation no proof.
Quite frankly I doubt every word of it....  
 
Mir
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Sun May 22, 2016 10:37 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 174):
if there was a fire in there it would be impossible for the crew to do anything to stop it.

There's no extinguisher that can be used, but you can isolate the equipment that's on fire and remove power to it. Without power, the fire will lose its heat source and will go out. If it's spread to other components and affected them then you may have to remove power from them as well - obviously the sooner you take action the better. This depends on being able to identify what's malfunctioning, however, and that might not be easy.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 174):
If there was a smoke situation in the cockpit, the next maneuver after this would be an emergency descent to a breathable FL without the masks right?

Definitely with the masks on.

-Mir
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Rivet42
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 12:04 am

Quoting Winterapfel (Reply 159):
To the contrary, if you read the statement on Avherald.com, you'll find that this has been updated to 02:30L

Well, according to this avherald article, the timeline I presented stands - Airbus & Egyptair say contact was lost at 00:30, which appears to be based on Greek ATC, rather than subsequent contacts reported by Greek military radar from 00:37 onwards. Those don't appear to have been revised (nor substantiated yet with evidence, admittedly...)

If the aircraft was reported at FL370 flying 136' at 00:29, it's unlikely to have performed the turns & descent described in under 60 seconds...?? However, if the Greek military report is still valid, the aircraft continued for 7 minutes at FL370 after ATC lost contact before it began the left turn which doesn't make much sense either unless an avionics fire took out the transponder...

Riv'

(edited to correct heading)

[Edited 2016-05-22 17:16:48]
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F9Animal
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 12:08 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 148):
got an update:
Last ADS-B data was at 00:29:33.558 with 6 data receptions by ADS-B groundstations over the last 3 seconds of detection. It was tracking at 136 degrees.
The aircraft was consistently tracking at 139 degrees until 00:29:09.000, after which the aircraft had a small track change to 136... which was held from 00:29:18:776 until the end.
Autopilot switched off or changed from managed mode to heading select mode?

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solarflyer22
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 1:34 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 7):
I had the same thought. There would be ample nooks to conceal something on the back right side of the cockpit. From the beginning I thought an inside job made the most sense.

Yeah, I'm thinking insider too. Explains why no terrorist group claimed it either.

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 16):

A modern laptop battery explosion (based on google videos) would begin as a bunch of smoke followed by explosio

Yeah, this sounds a lot like a lithium battery fire. But why would it start so near to the front? Co-Pilot's laptop?

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 22):
Based on the ACARS messages, it appears as if there was a fire that short-circuited right-hand side windows heater and sensor wiring. I suppose one of the things investigators are looking at is the routing of the related wires and what possible fire sources there are near those wires.

Yeah the short circuit could be anywhere along on the line. I doubt it routes that far back though.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 157):
Have we ruled out pilot suicide being an option? Who ever did this...if anyone did this...they waited until the AC was well over a wide expanse of water to do it. If I were a terrorist, I wouldn't be that *kind.* In fact, I would want to do the opposite to inflict as much mayhem, no?

Frankly, without trying to be argumentative, "pilot suicide" is - to me - "terrorism". That Germanwings guy flew straight into a mountain. The guy in Africa flew his Ejet into the ground. Neither seemed to be trying to cause any additional mayhem from what I can tell.

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zeke
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 2:35 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 178):
However, if the Greek military report is still valid, the aircraft continued for 7 minutes at FL370 after ATC lost contact before it began the left turn which doesn't make much sense either unless an avionics fire took out the transponder...

Closest Greek radar site would be on Karpathos Island which is around 192 nm miles away. We need to understand that primary radar at that sort of distance is not all that accurate. Second closest radar site would have been the Ziros Area Control Center which is more like 214 nm away, then you have Fodele at 274 nm, and lastly Sklavopoula at 335 nm.

If they are saying radar contact was lost at 15,000 ft, assuming the base antenna is located at 1000m, you would have a maximum radar range of just under 220 nm.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=N33.3+E29.9-35%b03%2750%22N+26%b09%2711%22E,+%0d%0aN33.3+E29.9-35%b022%2745%22N+24%b059%273%22E,%0d%0aN33.3+E29.9-35%b034%2713%22N+27%b09%2747%22E,%0d%0aN33.3+E29.9-35%b018%2724%22N+23%b036%2734%22E&MS=wls&MR=60&MX=720x360&PM=*
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spacecadet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 2:50 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 181):
Frankly, without trying to be argumentative, "pilot suicide" is - to me - "terrorism".

Terrorism is political by nature. That's why we have a separate word for it.
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 3:24 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 180):
Yeah, I'm thinking insider too. Explains why no terrorist group claimed it either.

Or, as other have pointed out, it could mean that the aircraft wasn't intentionally brought down by anyone.
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ComeAndGo
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 4:09 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 174):
While people are thinking incendiary device which is a possibility, its quite possible there could be something in there far less benign like FOD after mx or even a rodent or wasps or something causing a short circuit or something else to interfere with the normal working of the systems.

The incendiary device could also find its way into the cockpit via a stewardess providing a refreshment "drink" to the pilot.
 
Unflug
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 103):
This article would beg to differ:

Why did you omit the next sentence:

Roberts did not immediately respond to Ars’ request for comment, but he told Wired on Friday that this paragraph was taken out of context.

He never said that he took control of an aircraft in flight. More info here:

http://www.wired.com/2015/05/feds-sa...ned-researcher-commandeered-plane/
 
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777Jet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 6:53 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 145):
I am concerned with what appears to have been a 'leak' of the ACARS info. Some, like me, thought it may have been a allowed release of info but apparently it wasn't. If the ACARS info was leaked, who would have done so and who would gain or benefit from such a release ? It also raises questions as to the accuracy of that info.

To me someone at Egypt Air or the Egyptian government investigators or higher up in government there released the ACARS info to try to deflect from the possibility of this loss from terrorism with all of its ramifications to the Egyptian government, economy, tourism and so on.

Given their mentality towards MS990 and their more recent handling of 7K9268 I can understand why one might assume that.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 154):
In the end, like I said in Part 1, they need to find the CVR and FDR black boxes as soon as possible.
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 155):
Even if it is true that someone spread this piece of information with a special intention / agenda, I am very confident it will not help because once FDR and CVR have been analysed by BEA etc. (in combination with analysing the wreckage) we all will know the truth.

Hopefully it doesn't take as long as it took to recover the AF447 boxes.
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theaviator380
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 8:23 am

Do you guys think, scrambling of military jet (the moment ATC contact was lost) would have helped to find accurate enough crash site and would have helped if there were any survivors?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 8:31 am

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 188):
Do you guys think, scrambling of military jet (the moment ATC contact was lost) would have helped to find accurate enough crash site and would have helped if there were any survivors?

Most definitely not. When the crash happened it was still dark anyway.
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Andy33
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 8:53 am

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 188):
Do you guys think, scrambling of military jet (the moment ATC contact was lost) would have helped to find accurate enough crash site and would have helped if there were any survivors?

Military jets are often scrambled in Europe when flight crews fail to respond to ATC, but this is usually after they've failed to respond to ATC calls from an FIR they have just entered. In this case the crew had been in normal contact with Athens FIR, and had clearance to be where they were. So there was no obvious reason for Athens to take action just because they didn't respond to radio. Egyptian ATC might have taken action had the plane reached their area, as a non-communicating inbound aircraft they could see on radar.

When radar contact was lost things became different, but it was the middle of the night. Precisely what the pilot of a jet fighter would be able to spot in the open sea in the dark is difficult to imagine. Perhaps an A-net member who has been a military pilot will be able to tell us.
SAR aircraft with searchlights, the ability to drop buoys and rafts etc are another matter but would take time to get to the scene.
The nearest Greek jet fighters would be on Crete or the mainland so would not arrive instantaneously in any case.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 8:58 am

So many press here asking obvious questions to use on their news casts...
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Revelation
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 10:46 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 191):
So many press here asking obvious questions to use on their news casts...

I don't know about that, I think this story is rapidly losing the media's interest.

For instance it was on BBC World Service yesterday, today there's no mention.

I think it'll stay that way unless some floating debris gives solid evidence of an explosion.
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rbrunner
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 11:33 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 191):
I think it'll stay that way unless some floating debris gives solid evidence of an explosion

Yes, or anything else that is new.
 
flyenthu
Posts: 578
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 1:03 pm

Are there past records of intense overheating of A320 cockpit windows that could lead to catastrophic events? I know there have been instances of cockpit window overheating issues , but "IF" this were the case, it is a serious issue. Haven't there been any airworthiness directives by any agencies on this in all of these years? Is this the same heating system in the A380s as well?

To me, the sequence of ACARS messaging originating at the right cockpit window and issues consistently staying to the right- right bathroom, avionics to the right- are indicative of things going wrong very quickly "starting" at the right cockpit window.

The only thing with the fire theory is the complete lack of any communication from the cockpit about it or pilots requesting a diversion or declaring an emergency. Whatever happened must have been very fast and completely unexpected where either the cockpit crew became incapacitated OR just didn't have any options left other than to aviate and navigate. I am skeptical of the latter because the aircraft flew for a couple of minutes after the cockpit window smoke message indicating there was some time in theory to communicate. I feel the cockpit crew became incapacitated.
 
LandSweetLand
Posts: 185
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 1:14 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 192):
I don't know about that, I think this story is rapidly losing the media's interest.

Ultimately for the media it's just another plane crash. It happened in last week's news cycle, and doesn't involve the US or the UK. They know roughly where it is, the casualty count was low compared to other recent widely publicised crashes.
Sadly these days, that's enough to lose out to a celebrity sex scandal, a surfing cat, or a man dressing up as a goat.
 
pygmalion
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 1:50 pm

Quoting AirBoat (Reply 170):
just a question?
I assume there are vents in the passenger cabin floor so that cabin pressure can equalize with the cargo hold to prevent a floor collapse when a cargo door opens in flight.
Does the cabin air con pressurize the cabin and then bleed through to the cargo hold?

In an oversimplified fashion it works like this...

There is a line of nearly continuous venting along the side walls at the passenger floor level on both sides of the airplane.
This air travels from the cabin to the cargo side wall cheeks and either to the outflow valves in the belly or to the recirc fans and filters at the aft end of the forward cargo. The AC packs take new air from outside, compress it and heat/cool it, mixes it with the recirc air and vents it into the passenger cabin at the ceiling, upper side wall and gasper vents. And then it starts all over again. There is nearly a complete air change every 6-10 minutes
 
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 1:54 pm

Quoting danvs (Reply 97):
I'm not sure if the pings are that easy to locate given the depth of the ocean in the area.

Also the temperature gradient and salinity differences in the water can increase the difficulty.

If anyone is interested this is the ship that is performing the ROV work: http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/..._:e81d66a2d139a567eb229aba616a7dd6
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breiz
Posts: 1445
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:12 pm

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 2:27 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 198):
If anyone is interested this is the ship that is performing the ROV work:

Nice link. PMS Burullus appears to be on location.
Not sure what type of ROV she has on-board as she was contracted by Saipem for IMR service on the West Delta Deep Marine field which is only 850 m deep. The ROV looks contracted from a company named Deep-Tech which has 2,000 m capable ROVs, but on-board?
 
theaviator380
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 pm

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 4

Mon May 23, 2016 2:42 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 189):
Quoting Andy33 (Reply 190):

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

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