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breiz
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Fri May 27, 2016 1:28 pm

A bit more on naval means deployed on site.

"Le Gouvernement français, avec la collaboration du Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses, a mandaté la société française
Alseamar pour participer à la localisation des enregistreurs de vol (dits « boîtes noires »).
Le 26 mai 2016, un ingénieur et deux techniciens ont embarqué avec le système Detector à bord du bâtiment
hydrographique LAPLACE de la Marine Nationale.
La société est intervenue avec succès par le passé sur d’autres lieux d’accidents aériens en mer, comme à Sharm-ElSheikh (Egypte) ou à Sotchi (Russie)."

Three specialists from the French company Alseamar have embarked onboard the navy hydrographic vessel "Laplace" with the acoustic detection system "Detector". The same company was used successfully to locate the wreckage of airplane off Sharm El Sheikh and Sotchi.

Not sure if there is a mistake regarding the vessel's name, or if it is an additional one to the aviso "Enseigne de vaisseau Jacoubet" already on site.

Meanwhile, the PMS Bumullus run a search grid which can be followed on:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/...ldmmsi:622121527/olddate:lastknown
Click on "show track" and expend.
 
Tangowhisky
Posts: 667
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat May 28, 2016 12:29 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 100):
OK................. I might as well just put some differences out there between MS 804 AND MH 370:

and here are some similarities:
- Both aircraft voice communicated with goodbye's to the last ATC controller (MH 370 with Malaysian ATC, MS 804: Greek ATC)
- Both aircraft went radio silence as they were handed over to the next national controller: MH 370 Malaysia to Vietnam, MS 804 Greece to Egypt)
- Both aircraft had their ADS-Bs stopped broadcasting while still at cruise at precisely when they were expected by the next national ATC controller
- Both aircraft disappeared over water, albeit we know where roughly MS 804 crashed

Pilot suicide should not be ruled out in both cases.
Only the paranoid survive
 
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enilria
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat May 28, 2016 7:29 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 102):

Pilot suicide is highly unlikely because correct if wrong, but this was not the scheduled crew. It was scheduled as a 737. That means it was a reserve crew. Suicide would be unlikely as it couldn't have been planned. I'm assuming the reserve crew only had a few hours notice.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat May 28, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 20):
Is there a chance somebody in the cockpit was smoking? Just a thought, because smoking is quite prevalent in Egypt.

If either pilot were a smoker, I'd be interested in knowing whether or not they vaped during flights. I saw on our local news a little while back a guy left his e-cig in the cup holder of his car, and the battery exploded and burned the car to the ground in no time at all. I know very little about them since I quit smoking before they existed, but I have heard the medium sized rechargeable type are prone to explosion and fire similar to what the batteries on hover boards have been doing. E-cigarettes are banned on flights to, from, and within the USA, but what about elsewhere in the world?

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
PuraVida18
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 1:07 am

This is from a WSJ article just published....

Smoke Alerts Like That on Flight 804 Have Raised Questions in the Past
Incorrect warning led to emergency landing in 2011; investigators explore scenario in EgyptAir crash

Wall Street Journal
By ANDY PASZTOR
May 27, 2016 7:16 p.m. ET

Long before EgyptAir Flight 804’s pilots received an alert signaling smoke in a vital electronics compartment, U.S. safety watchdogs documented that such warnings on that airliner model were frequently erroneous and sometimes prompted unnecessary and risky cockpit responses.

According to people familiar with the probe into this month’s crash of the Airbus Group SE A320, investigators are trying to determine whether the pilots reacted to the smoke message by following an emergency checklist that can lead to shutting down essential safety systems, including automated flight-control protections.

Possible pitfalls of that procedure emerged vividly in an April 2011 incident. Shortly after United Airlines Flight 497 took off from New Orleans, the pilots of the A320 plane received a smoke alert from the hub of its avionics system, but investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board later said they found “no evidence of fire or overheated components.”The pilots told investigators that “after they began to respond to the smoke warning, electrically powered items in the airplane ceased to function,” according to National Transportation Safety Board documents. The crew lost some radios and a transponder, and needed air-traffic controllers to direct the jet back to the runway, where it landed with impaired steering and its nose wheel veered into grass beside the runway. Nobody was injured.

Ten days later, United sent pilots a bulletin saying its “Airbus fleet has experienced cases of spurious avionics smoke warnings” and stressing that emergency electric shutdowns are required only in the event of “perceptible smoke.”
 
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Clipper101
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting PuraVida18 (Reply 105):
U.S. safety watchdogs documented that such warnings on that airliner model were frequently erroneous and sometimes prompted unnecessary and risky cockpit responses.
Quoting PuraVida18 (Reply 105):
the pilots of the A320 plane received a smoke alert from the hub of its avionics system

But a smoke warning from lavatory can be visually identified as it should also raise an alarm on crew ECAM, flag a light & activate a chim.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting Clipper101 (Reply 89):
Talking about unfortunate Swissair MD-11 Flt 111, one major outcome from this case towards enhancing civil aviation safety record was to prompt the FAA to issue AD for the removal & replacement of insulation blankets on global MD-11 fleet which was constructed at the time from Mylar based material & was seen below safety standards.

The FAA AD applied to all MD aircraft with metalized mylar insulation, not just the MD-11. It affected 699 aircraft in the U.S. and 1,230 worldwide according to this Canadian (Halifax) newspaper item on the subject after the AD was issued:
http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/den...ht_111_prompts_insulation_ban.html
 
jsfr
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 4:56 pm

This is a very quiet investigation - great that we are no thearing the usual half-baked rumours, but only a little more than a week afterwards - silence on all fronts...

Strange for a flight that has disappeared in the middle of the Med and for one that seemingly has very controversial options...

Does anybody have an update?
 
F9Animal
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 6:24 pm

Quoting jsfr (Reply 108):
This is a very quiet investigation - great that we are no thearing the usual half-baked rumours, but only a little more than a week afterwards - silence on all fronts...

Strange for a flight that has disappeared in the middle of the Med and for one that seemingly has very controversial options...

Does anybody have an update?

Kind of similar to Metro Jet bombing. Egypt is trying hard to keep its tourism industry healthy. We all know if this turns into a terror attack, Egypt will have a difficult time attracting tourists.

I was a bit frustrated at all of the false reports and media speculations. After all, CNN has me convinced it was terrorism. The British guy that spits everywhere when he gets excited has me sold on terrorism! That guy makes me want to puke.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 6:27 pm

If the 'black boxes' are not located in the next several days will they ever? What would be involved with sabotaging them before the flight?
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ltbewr
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 6:35 pm

Yes, the talk on this flight has gotten quiet, but that is in parts due to the lack of new info, pending the recovery of more of the parts of the plane along with the FDR and CVR and reading of it to help narrow possible causes. The media is quick to an initial aircraft loss event for a few days, maybe a week, then toss to the back or pretty much forgotten but here or in the home countries of most of the victims.
While there is significant speculation as to an act of terrorism as well as other possible causes and a desire to apply changes to prevent another such event, in this case it will take a while, for verifiable information to be reviewed than released in a report by investigative authorities. Already some actions have taken place, including security reviews of CDG ground staff and security, which is a good and proper reaction.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 110):
If the 'black boxes' are not located in the next several days will they ever?

I think they will find them even if the pings stop at 3000 meters as they have a good idea where the wreckage is.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 110):
What would be involved with sabotaging them before the flight?

Pulling the circuit breakers for the CVR and FDR at any time would remove power to these units. The ACARS and QAR are on different power sources as they are each unique LRUs.

In all honesty I don't think the Egyptian authorities are super keen to find out what exactly happened as the probability that this is not a sabotage of some sort is very low.
Only the paranoid survive
 
spacecookie
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 9:38 pm

For me it makes no sense that this crash is an terrorism act.
Hours in to the flight, for me it makes just no sense... But we will see

I hope they find out what happen to prevent it in the future, and make air traveling even more safer.
 
ZKCIF
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 9:56 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 103):
Pilot suicide is highly unlikely because correct if wrong, but this was not the scheduled crew. It was scheduled as a 737. That means it was a reserve crew.

Data please   
Please show how many cases per month MS804 was a Boeing.

I will be highly surprised if the answer is NOT zero
 
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pvjin
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun May 29, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 103):
Pilot suicide is highly unlikely because correct if wrong, but this was not the scheduled crew. It was scheduled as a 737. That means it was a reserve crew. Suicide would be unlikely as it couldn't have been planned. I'm assuming the reserve crew only had a few hours notice.

I doubt a suicidal pilot would exactly care which exact flight he or she brings down, unless the goal is to also hide the evidence.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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ordell
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Mon May 30, 2016 1:57 am

https://www.yahoo.com/news/egyptair-black-boxes-impossible-recover-12-days-144437210.html

Cairo (AFP) - Investigators into EgyptAir's plane crash need at least 12 days to recover its black boxes as they await a ship that can retrieve them from the bottom of the Mediterranean, investigation sources said Sunday.

The Airbus A320 plane crashed into the Mediterranean with 66 people on board during a May 19 flight from Paris to Cairo, after disappearing from radar screens.

Investigators are in a race against time to find the flight recorders, known as the black boxes, which have enough battery power to emit signals for four or five weeks.

The recordings could help investigators determine the reason for the crash.

The plane was carrying passengers from different nationalities, with 40 Egyptians including the crew and 15 French nationals.

Egypt's aviation minister had initially said a terrorist attack was more likely to have brought down the plane, but a technical failure is also likely.

France's aviation safety agency has said the aircraft transmitted automated messages indicating smoke in the cabin and a fault in the flight control unit minutes before losing contact.

Egypt and France have signed agreements with two French companies specialising in deep water searches, Alseamar and Deep Ocean Search (DOS).

"Those two companies have complementary roles: the first is for locating the pings of the black boxes (the signal being emitted by the black boxes' beacon), while the second is for diving and recovering them" with the help of a robot, a source close to the investigation told AFP in Cairo, requesting anonymity.

"But the DOS specialised ship left the Irish sea Saturday and it will reach the perceived crash site only in around 12 days, after having the Egyptian and French investigators embark in Alexandria," the source added.

The investigation into the crash is led by an Egyptian-headed committee.

Other sources close to the investigation confirmed the information.

The investigators are searching for the black boxes at a depth of around 3,000 metres (around 10,000 feet), some 290 kilometres (180 miles) north of the Egyptian coast.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Mon May 30, 2016 11:31 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 115):
I doubt a suicidal pilot would exactly care which exact flight he or she brings down, unless the goal is to also hide the evidence.

I wonder what evidence one has to hide if you want to commit suicide. You don't have to care about guilt or remorse when you're dead.

IMHO there is rather a motive to hide a technical fault behind suicide, e.g. if the airline's boss is at the controls, and he's fully aware that his company hasn't properly maintained the aircraft, then he has a motivation to commit suicide if it could save his company.

I very much doubt a suicide in MS804...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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enilria
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Mon May 30, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 114):
Data please   
Please show how many cases per month MS804 was a Boeing.

I will be highly surprised if the answer is NOT zero

OAG says that since mid-April when the red-eye began for the season that it was scheduled every day as a 737-800. Given that the OAG schedule would set the seat map, they wouldn't be routinely using a different type.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 115):

I doubt a suicidal pilot would exactly care which exact flight he or she brings down, unless the goal is to also hide the evidence.

No, but suicides are usually planned. If it was a reserve crew then he probably wouldn't even know who would be the other pilot.
 
klwright69
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Mon May 30, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
The coroner clearly has no clue about anything related to aircraft crashes. Anybody with basic knowledge and understanding would know that small body parts point towards a more or less intact aircraft suffering a high speed, high energy impact. If the aircraft had broken mid air then you would most likely have many more or less intact bodies, like in case of MH17, at least if we assume that the aircraft wasn't full of TNT or something.

This is true.. Also if you go back and look at footage of the Air India 182 explosion, many bodies were recovered intact. Look on youtube at the AI 182 documentary. There is some disturbing footage of body recovery.
 
ZKCIF
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Mon May 30, 2016 1:11 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 118):
OAG says that since mid-April when the red-eye began for the season that it was scheduled every day as a 737-800. Given that the OAG schedule would set the seat map, they wouldn't be routinely using a different type.

I remember after the disaster I checked this flight. Flightradar showed 6 flights before the fatal one. ALL of them were A320.
Of course, I know nothing about the pilot roster of the airline, but I am perfectly sure that the flight was really scheduled as A320 and NOT B738

respectfully yours.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Tue May 31, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 116):
Cairo (AFP) - Investigators into EgyptAir's plane crash need at least 12 days to recover its black boxes as they await a ship that can retrieve them from the bottom of the Mediterranean, investigation sources said Sunday

Sadly, the capable vessels are too busy plucking asylum seekers out of the Mediterranean...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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kelvin933
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Tue May 31, 2016 7:31 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 121):
Sadly, the capable vessels are too busy plucking asylum seekers out of the Mediterranean...

The French Navy ship Laplace is now heading for the crash site with equipment on board to locate the "black" boxes with more precision. The approximate location is known from ELT transmissions received immediately after the crash.
A Deep Ocean Search vessel is being dispatched from the Irish Sea to the Mediterranean with a ROV capable of operating at the depths likely to be encountered while retrieving the FDR and CVR.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...airo-and-us?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
apfpilot
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Tue May 31, 2016 2:57 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-in-cairo-and-us?CMP=share_btn_tw

Interesting bit of news that the Egyptian authorities have confirmed that they did receive a signal from the ELT on 804. Since it was received by Satellites it would have been the 406MHz signal. Should help them narrow down where to search pretty significantly. I suspect that once the capabilities of deep sea acoustic searching arrives they'll locate the CVR/FDR pretty quickly.
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cat3appr50
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Tue May 31, 2016 6:44 pm

MSR804 was lost May 19, 2016. It is currently May 31, 2016, 12 days after the loss. It was reported that Airbus and others had received the 406 MHz ELT satellite signal. Per my earlier post, that signal was normally designed/programmed to only last 24 hours in duration, as its signature was meant to confirm the specific aircraft/flight and approximate initial crash location only. The designed shutdown of the 406 MHz signal after 24 hours preserves the overall ELT battery life for the search and rescue via the ELT’s 121.5/243 MHz signal, continuing after the 406 MHz signal shutdown.

Assuming that the 406 MHz signal was received, it is therefore logical, by design, that the signal was received sometime during the 24 hours immediately after the loss. Having received that signal, it should have generated a heightened “sense of urgency” to get assets including acoustic/sonar/ELT equipment, etc. relative to identifying the ELT 121.5/243 MHz signal and also expediently finding the CVR and DFDR ULB signals at the approximate crash site (from the 406 MHz signal information).

Per reports the two dispatched/contracted ships for locating the ULB signal (one for deep water only) are reported to be several days before arriving on location. The 30 day ULB battery life limit is fast approaching, relative to expediently locating the CVR/DFDR.
 
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AlexA340B777
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:46 am

Cnn has a breaking news banner now:

"POSSIBLE UNDERWATER SIGNAL FROM EGYPTAIR FLIGHT 804 DETECTED IN MEDITERRANEAN..."
6 continents, 85 countries, 718 flights, 88 airlines, 37 aircraft types
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:16 pm

Quoting AlexA340B777 (Reply 125):
Cnn has a breaking news banner now:

"POSSIBLE UNDERWATER SIGNAL FROM EGYPTAIR FLIGHT 804 DETECTED IN MEDITERRANEAN..."

BBC reports the same:

Quoting BBC:

Signals likely to have come from the black boxes of the EgyptAir plane that crashed last
month have been detected, Egyptian investigators say.

A statement said they were picked up by a French vessel searching the Mediterranean Sea.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
airtechy
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:58 pm

According to this they have now been confirmed.....

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...hed-egyptair-jet/story?id=39522750
 
liquidair
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:47 am

Ansa in Italy reporting that the aircraft made three emergency landings in the preceding 24 hours to the crash, due to erroneous technical malfunction warnings.

Anybody have any further info?
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:53 am

Quoting liquidair (Reply 128):
Ansa in Italy reporting that the aircraft made three emergency landings in the preceding 24 hours to the crash, due to erroneous technical malfunction warnings.

Anybody have any further info?

FR24 does not confirm this, most likely not true.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
liquidair
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:47 am

Here's a link to an article regarding the alleged emergency landings

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...an-sea_uk_574fdf1de4b040e3e818f59f
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
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euroflyer
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:58 am

The reports about the emergency landings are not true and clearly denied by BEA expert

Source in fr: http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...alertes-avant-le-crash-enquete.php
Born to fly !
 
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litz
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:45 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 128):
Ansa in Italy reporting that the aircraft made three emergency landings in the preceding 24 hours to the crash, due to erroneous technical malfunction warnings.

Having seen how the Italian media handled the Costa Concordia disaster, I think you can trust anything you read there as far as you can throw it. They make tabloids look legitimate.
 
Indy
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:38 pm

If the story about the emergency landings were true, wouldn't it be easy enough for one of us with a Flightaware account to verify? Someone should be able to prove or disprove the information. I don't have an account and am not really familiar with using the site so don't know how thorough I'd be.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
JFK31R
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:58 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 133):
If the story about the emergency landings were true, wouldn't it be easy enough for one of us with a Flightaware account to verify?

Yes, which is why this is practically without a doubt, complete BS.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:32 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 133):
If the story about the emergency landings were true, wouldn't it be easy enough for one of us with a Flightaware account to verify? Someone should be able to prove or disprove the information. I don't have an account and am not really familiar with using the site so don't know how thorough I'd be.

I've read that the plane in question transmitted an ACARS message each time shortly after the three previous take-offs, but I have no information on the content of these messages.

I have to dig out the report saying that.

The screenshot of the messages do not show these, as they were earlier.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Guillermo
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:29 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 132):
Having seen how the Italian media handled the Costa Concordia disaster, I think you can trust anything you read there as far as you can throw it. They make tabloids look legitimate.


What could you know about Costa Concordia disaster? Before post BS, please check your sources. Ansa clearly quoted France 3, it would have been sufficient to read at least half of the article. Here, for your convenience, I paste the links so you can bother to check for yourself:

ANSA:
http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/mond...e-861a-4a30-bd6e-41dabc73b6a8.html

Quote:
"E' quanto riferisce questa sera la tv francese France 3"

France 3: (source article quoted by ANSA)
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/eur...ce-la-veille-du-crash_1479713.html

Quoting euroflyer (Reply 131):
The reports about the emergency landings are not true and clearly denied by BEA expert

Can I ask you if you know who is this "source close to the investigation" and therefore why you are assuming that his sayings are correct? Moreover, for what is worth, he is referring specifically to SMOKE ALARMS and saying nothing about other technical issues that could / could not been reported by ACARS.

from:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...alertes-avant-le-crash-enquete.php

Quote:
"Une source proche de l'enquête sur l'accident d'un Airbus A320 d'EgyptAir le 19 mai dernier en Méditerranée a démenti aujourd'hui qu'une série d'alertes ait été émise par l'avion dans les 24 heures précédant sa disparition en mer, comme l'ont rapporté hier des médias en France.

"Il n'est pas vrai, comme l'ont dit certains médias français, que des messages Acars signalant la présence de fumée aient été envoyés à trois reprises successives pendant les vols de l'avion vers Asmara en Erythrée, et Tunis et à son départ du Caire", a déclaré cet enquêteur. Acars est un système embarqué de communications qui envoie régulièrement des données de vol de l'appareil à la compagnie exploitante. Le rayon de la zone de recherches des enregistreurs de vol a été ramené de cinq à deux kilomètres après qu'un signal a été détecté par un navire français, a ajouté cette source.

A Paris, le ministre français des Transports, Alain Vidalies, a déclaré ce matin qu'il faudrait une huitaine de jours avant que les boîtes noires puissent être récupérées."
 
CO953
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:29 am

This accident is officially creeping me out. It seems that the last few years, things have been getting slowly weirder. While I haven't been glued to the reports, I can't ever remember one with so many "facts" that just ain't so.

First it was a 737, then it wasn't. First they disappeared at altitude while in a sudden climb, then instead they circled and descended, then they never circled, then they just disappeared at altitude, then circled. First, it's a bomb, then a UFO. Then, they were talking with ATC for several minutes about a fire, then they weren't. Black boxes located, then not. Major newspapers saying 3 emergency landings in 3 days, but then not. Ships taking over two weeks to get from Europe to the Mediterranean.

WTF. Total hell on the families....   
 
Andy33
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:02 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 137):

First it was a 737, then it wasn't. First they disappeared at altitude while in a sudden climb, then instead they circled and descended, then they never circled, then they just disappeared at altitude, then circled. First, it's a bomb, then a UFO. Then, they were talking with ATC for several minutes about a fire, then they weren't. Black boxes located, then not. Major newspapers saying 3 emergency landings in 3 days, but then not. Ships taking over two weeks to get from Europe to the Mediterranean.

It's not so much that the incident is weird (though it might turn out to be when we actually know what caused it) but that the international media's handling of it is even stupider than usual, perhaps we on a-net should stop automatically re-posting details of every news broadcast, at least until we know that the "expert" isn't some random former employee of a different airline the reporter met after several drinks in a bar, and the "official spokesman's" words are correctly translated.

Now it clearly doesn't take two weeks to get a ship from Europe to the assumed crash scene, because this is in or immediately adjacent to Greek territorial waters, and when I was in Greece last month everyone was quite certain that the mainland of the country was physically attached to the rest of Europe. It is more that highly specialised vessels with capability to recover items from 3000m depths are not sitting around idle moored up in ports in either Northern or Southern Europe. So the owners of the ship have to bring whatever it was doing for its living to a temporary halt, with the agreement of whoever it was contracted to, send it into its home port to load the correct equipment and supplies, and then set off.
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:24 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 138):
perhaps we on a-net should stop automatically re-posting details of every news broadcast, at least until we know that the "expert" isn't some random former employee of a different airline the reporter met after several drinks in a bar, and the "official spokesman's" words are correctly translated.

But if we don't post on here what will the media have to report as "sources"?

Other than that I'm not saying anything else until we establish the facts as to what happened and what is currently happening in the investigation.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
EMAman
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:55 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 137):

I share that frustration, but I suspect the reason is that the Egyptian authorities are being politically biased and not sharing the truth, or hiding all that they know. They have serious form for dishonesty and most likely would like this to be a terrorist attack to demonstrate that European airports are no more secure than theirs. I don't think this is terrorism personally.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:32 am

I wonder how big is the distrust between the French and Egyptian authorities. Once those recorders reach the surface of the water, I bet both sides will want to keep their eyes on them straight to the labs. It will be interesting. Egypt went out of their way to discredit the NTSB about Egyptair 990's suicidal pilot. They don't want any more black eyes. I can understand their situation.
Only the paranoid survive
 
Indy
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:05 am

My concern is that if/when this is found to NOT be terrorism that Egypt will try and blame the pilots for the crash. Weren't they really quick to point the finger at terrorism before even an ounce of evidence was found? Just strikes me as someone wanting to push the blame away from the airline as fast as possible. I might be wrong.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:24 am

So hang on, when the Metrojet A321 went down, the Egyptian authorities were condemned for not immediately declaring terrorism to be the root cause & now they're being condemned for initially stating that a terrorist attack was the most likely cause of the loss of MS804? Talk about damned if they do and damned if they don't.

(They didn't actually say anything of he sort, in this case either, the Minister of Civil Aviation having been misquoted by the international news outlets, when he actually stated that nothing had been ruled out as the root cause, not terrorism nor technical issues, during his initial press conference; something the French authorities would state later the same day - I've linked to the Al Ahram live coverage several times in this thread, so please look up the article.)

Which do you think would have a greater impact on the Egyptian tourism industry, a terrorist attack; bearing in mind that such a root cause would indicate that all flights to & from Egypt will be the focus of such outrages or a maintenance issue? Perhaps a technical issue being the root cause will have a greater effect on tourism?

Or, maybe, in light of the fact that we have no evidence for such a cause, other than opinion regarding the predisposition for Egyptian airline pilots towards such acts we should accuse the flight deck crew, who are in all likelihood innocent of ay wrongdoing, of having committed suicide, taking over 60 others with them? Please bear in mind that there has been as many successful / attempted cases of suicide amongst Western European, South East Asian &, even, US airlines, as there have been at Egyptair.

This latter accusation is on a par with a comment, on a UK tabloid website in the first couple of days after the loss, to the effect that there were 2 Iraqis on the flight, not that they were saying anything, but, hey, there's the investigation wrapped up.

I could be proposing something a bit radical here, but perhaps, rather than condemning others as being guilty until proved innocent, on the basis of nothing more solid than personal opinions of their Government or unsourced newspaper stories, might it not just be better to wait until something with a concrete provenance is released by the international investigation team? Otherwise, a respected aviation forum runs the risk of reducing itself to the level of the ill informed, sensationalist, press, we wo rightly condemn.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
EMAman
Posts: 206
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:33 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 142):

I doubt you are wrong. I suspect that if this is negligence at Egypt air it will be most embarrassing to Egypt.
 
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GlenP
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:47 am

A case of negligence would simply mean many potential visitors simply switching to another carrier, when visiting Egypt, whereas a conclusion that the aircraft was lost due to terrorist actions would be more likely to deter visitors from flying to Egypt with any carrier & from any point of origin.

Seeing as you already appear to have decided that any findings by the investigation team will be a cover-up, on the basis of little or no factual information & simply that you personally distrust Egyptians, please enlighten us at to what root cause being announced you would consider to be legitimate? You've already hinted at terrorism, maintenance issues and pilot suicide, so which is you favourite for pinning the blame on either the airline or its employees, regardless of their guilt or innocence?
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
EMAman
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:13 pm

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:46 pm

I have definately already decided that the Egyptian findings could well be politically biased, and they have a long history of not accepting or disseminating the truth in air accident investigations. MS990 was a prime example, but also they struggled to accept overwhelming evidence of terrorism re Metrojet bombing.

My personal suspicion is that the point the Egyptians would like to make by favouring terrorism when the few little known facts probably put terrorism at only 50% possibility, and not the close on 100% that some people think, as they could suggest that European airports are no more secure than their own, it would also deflect blame from MS which would make the Egyptians look incompetent again.

I will generally accept the report from an investigation which has been concluded and accepted by a panel of international investigators, which includes representatives and evidence from at least France as well as Egypt.
 
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litz
Posts: 2301
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:31 pm

Does anyone know the actual coordinates from the ELT transmission?

That could be used to determine if it impacted in international, or Egyptian, territorial waters.

I've seen claims it went down just inside the Egyptian limit, but haven't really seen proof.
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 5677
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:47 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 147):

No, I haven't seen any news of that location.

The last radar contact showed the plane to be over Egyptian waters (200 nm EEZ), but not Egyptian territorial waters of course.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
spacecookie
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:57 pm

RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:33 am

It's really anoying when many of the airliners have already decided that it was terrorism and that Egypt wants to hide all the stuff about this incident.

In the past we had a lot of crashes from cruise lvl nothing strange here
Lets gets out ther find what it's wrong and fix it for the future.
The last thing should be the only one what matters here right know.

Air Asia was no terrorism
Swiftair was no terrorism

Both crashes from cruise level , both recent.

And about the ^they had three emergency landings^
We do have some rules here in Europe and also blacklist, there is nothing what make us think that Egypt air does not maintain this standards.
 
buzzard302
Posts: 159
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RE: Egypt Air 804 Paris-Cairo Missing Part 5

Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:50 am

There is very little known accurate information on this crash. The ACARS fault codes do not provide anything conclusive currently. Nothing the media provides is conclusive. I only hope they find the FDR and CVR and release a factual report based on that data. I find it interesting to have a technical conversation about what can be done to prevent future incidents (based on factual crash data).

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