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Boeing778X
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Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:20 am

In January, Bloomberg was reporting that VS was going to order up to 12 A350-1000s, and then everything seems to have gone silent since then.

Is an order still in the works at this time? 747-400/A340-600 replacement, while swapping the A380 order?
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:25 am

I would expect it to happen but first, their masters at DL must decide what in DL's best interest   The DL pilot contract contains joint venture scope language and the question of whether that scope will be expanded, curtailed or stay the same makes a big difference on what VS orders.

Given the ownership structure, there could also be an order which involves other airlines in which DL has a significant ownership interest.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:44 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):

I would expect it to happen but first, their masters at DL must decide what in DL's best interest   The DL pilot contract contains joint venture scope language and the question of whether that scope will be expanded, curtailed or stay the same makes a big difference on what VS orders.

FWIW the pilots issues aren't really with the VS JV as it is done a little differently, IIRC.

its the AF/KL/AZ JV that they take issue with.

However with how heavily DL is going to be investing in the A350 I'm sure DL would be happy to see those A380 orders turned into A350s.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 1:56 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):
their masters at DL must decide what in DL's best interest

I wouldn't be surprised to see the A35K in DL's fleet at some point as well, to be honest.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 2:39 am

DL has just defered 4 A350's for 2018/19 maybe these slots will be switched to Virgin.
BV
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 2:54 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter):
Is an order still in the works at this time? 747-400/A340-600 replacement, while swapping the A380 order?

VS is going to need something bigger than the 78X for its densest routes. The 35K would make good sense.   
 
anstar
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 5:45 am

They were hiring for a A350 fleet into manager on their external careers website a few weeks ago  
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:33 am

I would NOT be surprised VS is looking into exchanging the A388 order into A35K's. They could use the A35K on its routs from LHR to the USA.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:42 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 7):
They could use the A35K on its routs from LHR to the USA.

Or they could pack it to the gills, using it size to replace the LGW 744s, which IINM they haven't dedicated a replacement to as of yet.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Richard28
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 7:22 am

I suspect this will be an announcement at Farnborough.....
 
Beatyair
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:14 pm

Maybe the order will be given at that giant air show in the UK? I would think they would wait to see one fly first and maybe after they fix the noisy hydrolics issues on the A350-900's. I still believe they are only taking the A350 to get out of the A380 deal. Do airlines get discounts on Airbus products if there countries make the product? Or are they encouraged to swing that way?
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 10):
Maybe the order will be given at that giant air show in the UK? I would think they would wait to see one fly first and maybe after they fix the noisy hydrolics issues on the A350-900's

You are confusing with the a320neo....as far as iam aware the a350 does not have any noisy hydraulics issue.
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:30 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 10):
I would think they would wait to see one fly first

Thankk goodness airlines don't think the way you do, or there would be no orders at all for 787-10s, 779s, 778s, A350-1000s, and CS300s, none of which are flying so far, though most will be in the near future.

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 10):
Do airlines get discounts on Airbus products if there countries make the product? Or are they encouraged to swing that way?

No, they don't. Why on earth would you think they did? Do Bombardier give discounts to airlines just because they are Canadian, or Boeing just because they are American?
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 3:13 pm

So will VS use the A35K's to replace the 744's and the 78J
to replace their A346's?
 
kaitak
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:16 pm

Let's not forget that this is quite a significant number of types for what is actually a pretty small airline. The airline currently operates A330-300s, A340-600s, 747-400s and 787s and while they probably have a common pilot pool for the A330/346, they are still separate types and although RR engines are used on all but the 744, they are still different engines. That's a lot of fleet types in an airline that has not a very large fleet. I suspect DL will want to aim for simplification and will probably want to see VS move to two types.

I agree that there is scope for DL and VS to work together on the A350s and that should deliver some economies.

Judging by the configs currently used on the A333, I'm wondering if it possible to hazard a guess (a hazardous guess!) at the likely seating numbers on a VS A350-1000?

The A333 currently seats 266 in a three class layout. The A350-1000 is 33'2" longer than the A333 and its cabin is, of course, wider, so that means an extra seat across in Y+ and Y.
So, let's just assume a J class layout at 37 seats (+1 row, vs. A333), Y+ at 8 abreast with three extra rows (vs. the A333), which gives it 79 and then, in Economy, six extra rows of nine abreast (plus an extra seat in each row).

Total: J 37
W 79
Y 260

Total: 373

Just a guess!
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:25 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
Let's not forget that this is quite a significant number of types for what is actually a pretty small airline. The airline currently operates A330-300s, A340-600s, 747-400s and 787s and while they probably have a common pilot pool for the A330/346, they are still separate types and although RR engines are used on all but the 744, they are still different engines. That's a lot of fleet types in an airline that has not a very large fleet. I suspect DL will want to aim for simplification and will probably want to see VS move to two types.

I think VS is moving toward two types in the long run, and those types will be the 787 and one larger type. The 340s and 747s will disappear soon enough, and the 330s could easily be replaced with 787s if it would bring operational savings for the airline.

The question is whether that larger type is the 350 or the 777X. The need to do something about the 380 order may favor the 350. If Airbus launched a A350-1100 that was a straight stretch of the 35K, that would also help the 350's case. In the 777X's favor are 1) its size lends more naturally to 747-400 replacement on thick leisure routes and 2) likely common type rating with the 787.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 5:06 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
The question is whether that larger type is the 350 or the 777X. The need to do something about the 380 order may favor the 350.

I believe the A380 order has no real influence as I believe it's effectively cancelled and VS has no liabilities related to it.

That being said, I also believe the A350-1000 is a better fit for them then the 777-9.
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:17 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 13):
and the 78J to replace their A346's?

They've already begun replacing them with the 789.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
The question is whether that larger type is the 350 or the 777X. The need to do something about the 380 order may favor the 350. If Airbus launched a A350-1100 that was a straight stretch of the 35K, that would also help the 350's case. In the 777X's favor are 1) its size lends more naturally to 747-400 replacement on thick leisure routes and 2) likely common type rating with the 787.

779 offers a ton of performance though... which a Euro airline flying almost exclusively on the N. Atlantic, has no real use for. I'd think the A35K would have the advantage there.

But then again, Lufty bought 779, so who knows.


Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
I also believe the A350-1000 is a better fit for them then the 777-9.

  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 7:09 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 17):
But then again, Lufty bought 779, so who knows.

Ha! That sound hopeful until you remember that Lufty also bought the 748i and will forever be the only European operator of that type.

No I don't count Russia as European operators.
BV
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 7:34 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
The airline currently operates A330-300s, A340-600s, 747-400s and 787s



I think both the Boeing 747 and Airbus 340-600 are leaving the fleet in a few years.
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Fri May 20, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
I suspect DL will want to aim for simplification and will probably want to see VS move to two types.

Augers well for the 787-10, given VS's TATL routes.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
I believe the A380 order has no real influence as I believe it's effectively cancelled and VS has no liabilities related to it.

That being said, I also believe the A350-1000 is a better fit for them then the 777-9.

Interesting.
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Sat May 21, 2016 12:36 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 18):
That sound hopeful until you remember that Lufty also bought the 748i and will forever be the only European operator of that type.

Meh, Lufty never was one for conventional fleet planning.... but they've always made it work out for them, so there's that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Sat May 21, 2016 12:42 am

For the life of me, I can't figure out how VS route network needs more than one type. Either the 787 or the A350 would fit the bill, but I don't think that they need both.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

Sat May 21, 2016 12:47 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 22):
For the life of me, I can't figure out how VS route network needs more than one type. Either the 787 or the A350 would fit the bill, but I don't think that they need both.

Airlines proved throughout the last decade that the A330+777 could be a very effective combo, despite having nothing in common.

The same could very well appear true with a 787+A350 combo:
  • Premium configured 789s on ex-LHR routes.
  • Densely configured A35Ks on ex-LGW routes.

    Sounds like a winner to me.
  • I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
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    seabosdca
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 12:48 am

    Quoting Prost (Reply 22):
    For the life of me, I can't figure out how VS route network needs more than one type. Either the 787 or the A350 would fit the bill, but I don't think that they need both.

    Why fly a ULH-capable, hot-and-high star 359 on your loads of transatlantic sectors where the lighter 789 fits the bill?

    Why restrict your capacity to 78X level on leisure sectors where you could fill a bigger 35K?

    Virgin is operating enough aircraft that they can use two widebody types without issue.
     
    deltal1011man
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 12:57 am

    Quoting Andy33 (Reply 12):

    No, they don't.

    yes they do. Politics have played into plenty of airplane orders before.

    Quoting Andy33 (Reply 12):
    Do Bombardier give discounts to airlines just because they are Canadian,

    Really?
    AC got a pretty sweet deal, including the dropping of what could have been a VERY costly law suit. My bet is AC is more than happy to add the CS just so they don't have to re-build a maintenance MRO.

    Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
    1) its size lends more naturally to 747-400 replacement on thick leisure routes and 2) likely common type rating with the 787.

    IMO DL is going to push VS toward Trent 7000/1000/XWB engines.

    Wouldn't be shocked to see VS end up replacing the 333s with 339s. I know DL isn't the biggest fan of short TATL flights with the 787.
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 1:22 am

    Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 25):
    IMO DL is going to push VS toward Trent 7000/1000/XWB engines.

    Doubt that they'll have to do much pushing; VS has been rather loyal to RR, for just about everything except their 744s.
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
    deltal1011man
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 1:23 am

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 26):

    Doubt that they'll have to do much pushing; VS has been rather loyal to RR, for just about everything except their 744s.

    I mean I agree, I just think that rules out the 777X with only the GE9X engine.

    IMO 78J, 339 and 350s are all more likely in some form than 779s.
     
    Gemuser
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 1:31 am

    Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):

    I would expect it to happen but first, their masters at DL must decide what in DL's best interest  

    And then get the pants sued off them by the other shareholders! Even under UK law! A lone shareholder cannot direct the company to the detriment of other shareholders, even if they are a majority shareholder, which DL is not.

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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 4:44 am

    Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 27):
    I just think that rules out the 777X with only the GE9X engine

    Meh, I think the 779's capabilities would rule it out far before engine, as VS (and just about every other airline) has shown that they will swap engine types if the model can bring them more projected revenue/benefit.

    See: AF and the A350, UA and the A350/77W, or CX and the 77W/779.


    Quoting Gemuser (Reply 28):
    A lone shareholder cannot direct the company to the detriment of other shareholders

    That of course, presumes that anything DL would tell them would be "to the detriment of other shareholders," when that of course hasn't (shown any signs of occurring). If anything, DL's taught them how to make money again-- which I'm pretty sure most shareholders enjoy.
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
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    JerseyFlyer
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 7:42 am

    I do wonder if this 350 1000 rumour may translate it a 350 1100 launch order
     
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    Heavierthanair
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 8:05 am

    G'day

    This appears to be a bit more than just a rumor with 12 A 350 - 1000 being envisaged   

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...bn-order-Airbus-12-new-planes.html

    Cheers

    Peter
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 5:50 pm

    Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 31):
    G'day

    This appears to be a bit more than just a rumor with 12 A 350 - 1000 being envisaged

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...bn-order-Airbus-12-new-planes.html

    Cheers

    Peter

    I found this quite interesting:

    The other option for Virgin was the Boeing 777 that uses engines made by the US firm General Electric. Sources say Airbus is likely to clinch the order but warned there is still everything to play for.

    If true it would be interesting to know if 779 or 77W was on offer by Boeing. I would guess the latter one. I think 779 is too big, then they can even take their A380's and 77W would be available quite early which is in general a big advantage compared to the A350.
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 6:31 pm

    If Boeing is in the running its for deeply discounted 77Ws. The 779 is too big and the 778 too much range for what VS needs. The 35J though is a bit better in terms of fuel economy but the price difference might cut into that margin.
     
    Boeing74741R
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 7:38 pm

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 26):

    Some of their second-hand 747 classics were not RR-powered either and the A340-300's were CFM-powered.

    Quoting Prost (Reply 22):

    The 787-10 is IMO not big enough to replace the remaining 747's. Some may say the yields on some of the leisure routes aren't great but those planes can be filled and with increased competition from Thomas Cook at MAN in particular, it may not be wise to shoot themselves in the foot by slashing capacity. I've done MAN-MCO and back twice within the last 2 years outside the school holidays and they were almost full across all 3 cabins.
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sat May 21, 2016 7:50 pm

    My guess is we'll eventually see the B789/B787-10/A350JXWB for VS. Maybe the A339 too but I don't see it being in the fleet.
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    Beatyair
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 5:17 am

    Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):

    Virgin is learning the American ways of having lots of smaller planes flying vs the European way of one huge plane flying once.
     
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    Boeing778X
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 5:35 am

    Quoting Beatyair (Reply 36):
    Virgin is learning the American ways of having lots of smaller planes flying vs the European way of one huge plane flying once.

    I found a few of these pictures online   

    Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 35):
    My guess is we'll eventually see the B789/B787-10/A350JXWB for VS. Maybe the A339 too but I don't see it being in the fleet.

    I'm not sure if VS would order either the 787-10 or A330-900neo at this time. IMO, ordering one would make the other redundant.
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 6:58 am

    Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 30):
    I do wonder if this 350 1000 rumour may translate it a 350 1100 launch order

    An old friend of A.net says look to 8th June for confirmation of th A350 order, as this is pre farnborough if true I can't see it being a launch order for a -1100
    BV
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 7:17 am

    In the end, VS will likely end up with the A35K, in my opinion. It'll be the perfect plane to replace the 744, especially on routes from LHR to JFK, ORD, LAX and SFO. That is unless VS gets a major deal from Boeing for the 77W.
     
    Boeing74741R
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 7:25 am

    Quoting RayChuang (Reply 39):

    Only thing to point out is that VS no longer operate the 744 on those routes ex-LHR and the main reason for the rumoured order is for the leisure fleet replacement. That said, when all the A340s are finally gone I foresee a small role for the A350-1000 on a handful of routes ex-LHR.
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 3:15 pm

    Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 37):
    I'm not sure if VS would order either the 787-10 or A330-900neo at this time. IMO, ordering one would make the other redundant.

    The A330-900 is already redundant considering the 787-9 offers similar passenger capacity, better cargo capacity and much-improved range (even if VS doesn't need it for TATL, it does offer them flexibility).

    A 787-9 and A350-1000 fleet would nicely cover their A330-300 and A340-600 missions and would drive up RASM on the 747-400 missions (due to constrained capacity).
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 3:23 pm

    Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):

    Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 37):
    I'm not sure if VS would order either the 787-10 or A330-900neo at this time. IMO, ordering one would make the other redundant.

    The A330-900 is already redundant considering the 787-9 offers similar passenger capacity, better cargo capacity and much-improved range (even if VS doesn't need it for TATL, it does offer them flexibility).

    A 787-9 and A350-1000 fleet would nicely cover their A330-300 and A340-600 missions and would drive up RASM on the 747-400 missions (due to constrained capacity).

    Agree, although I'm not completely ruling out a 787-10 order in the future. Perhaps as a A333 replacement when the leases expire... It's 90% in common with the 787-9 and could give them some additional capacity for TATL missions - if needed of course. But I think VS could.
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 5:33 pm

    I wonder if VS will be ordering a fleet of Airbus A350-1100? The double decker ones? Farnborough is not far away.
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Sun May 22, 2016 5:35 pm

    Quoting Egerton (Reply 43):
    I wonder if VS will be ordering a fleet of Airbus A350-1100? The double decker ones? Farnborough is not far away.

    There will be no double decker A350-1100. You can let go of that fantasy now or else you will be sorely disappointed.
     
    United Airline
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Mon May 23, 2016 5:22 am

    Wonder if they will ever take the A380s. They never cancel the order though
     
    TheSonntag
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Mon May 23, 2016 7:54 am

    Quoting United Airline (Reply 45):
    Wonder if they will ever take the A380s. They never cancel the order though

    At least an Airbus engineer working on the A380 Project told me first Hand they are internally not considering it will be built, and have done so for years.
     
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    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Mon May 23, 2016 10:48 am

    Quoting United Airline (Reply 45):
    Wonder if they will ever take the A380s. They never cancel the order though

    I don't wonder, I think the answer is a firm 'no'.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
    The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
    Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
    The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
     
    User avatar
    KarelXWB
    Posts: 26968
    Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Tue May 24, 2016 11:58 am

    Quoting sq22 (Reply 32):
    I found this quite interesting:

    The other option for Virgin was the Boeing 777 that uses engines made by the US firm General Electric. Sources say Airbus is likely to clinch the order but warned there is still everything to play for.

    If true it would be interesting to know if 779 or 77W was on offer by Boeing. I would guess the latter one. I think 779 is too big, then they can even take their A380's and 77W would be available quite early which is in general a big advantage compared to the A350.

    According to another article the 'race' is between the A350-1000 and 777 classic. Apparently RR are offering a better deal on the engine, hence the A350 has the upper hand.

    We shall see. Announcement is expected on June 8.
    What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
     
    User avatar
    Heavierthanair
    Posts: 954
    Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:20 pm

    RE: Virgin Atlantic A350-1000: Order Still Planned?

    Tue May 24, 2016 12:40 pm

    G'day

    Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 48):
    Apparently RR are offering a better deal on the engine

    Besides RR likely holds deposits on the A380 engines, by ordering the A350 these deposits can be converted to the new order.
      

    Replacing A340'ies with B777 classics, essentially a same generation aircraft albeit somewhat more efficient does not make much sense either, no matter how cheaply these are available now. In comparison these B777's will become expensive to operate in the near future when they will have to be replaced by what? A 350-1000's?
      

    PS: good to have you back!   

    Cheeers

    Peter
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)

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