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BiggerJetsPlz
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Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:14 am

Yesterday I flew UA858 from Shanghai to San Francisco, and after awaking this evening from my jet-lagged stupor, checked the flight stats on FlightAware. It lists my flight as having left on-time at 12:10pm, getting in a bit early at 8:01am Pacific time. The thing is, being on the flight, I know that's not entirely true because I was checking my watch impatiently the whole time we were at the gate in Shanghai. We didn't push back till after 12:30pm and weren't in the air till after 12:45pm. We did land in SFO early, shortly after 8, so that part is probably mostly accurate.

In this case the end result was a slightly earlier than scheduled arrival (we were on a 690mph ground speed tear with healthy tail winds), so it shouldn't really matter to me, but still, it seems to me like United is just making up numbers here? Is this unscrupulous behavior a standard industry practice?
 
sutrakhk
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

When was the door closed?
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:21 am

Quoting sutrakhk (Reply 1):
When was the door closed?

Is that what they count departure time by? They probably did have the doors closed around 12:10.

I suppose I could have just googled it, but just striking up conversation here. I won't be sleeping tonight anyway.
 
tcfc424
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:27 am

Usually, departure time is calculated as the time at which the pilots release the brakes. It is somewhat frequent for them to do so prior to pushback, after the jetway has been removed and the tug operator is in place. That allows the crew additional time to do whatever they need to before pushback while still getting credit for an "on-time" departure. In the end, they arrived early, so not sure what the issue would be...I'm more concerned with the arrival time than the departure time.
 
Andy33
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:31 am

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 2):
Is that what they count departure time by? They probably did have the doors closed around 12:10.

No idea which measure of departure time FlightAware uses, but from a passenger perspective doors closed makes sense.

In Europe there's a legal definition of arrival time (again for passenger purposes in computing delays) and that is doors open.
Obviously different parts of the aviation industry require different measures for their own purposes, and sometimes these get into websites without a clear definition of which has been used.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:51 am

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 2):
Is that what they count departure time by?

Australia's Air Navigation Act 1920 defines "departure" as the time at which the final external door or hatch is closed, and "arrival" as the time at which the first external door or hatch is opened.

I've noticed in the last couple of weeks the times on flightaware for Australian domestic flights has gone from being takeoff and landing to being the same as what the airlines say on their website (+/- a couple of minutes, sometimes), which is in line with the Air Navigation Act definition.
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 7:20 am

Remember being told by a GF pilot that they calculated arrival & departure times as 'chock to chock'
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 7:32 am

It depends on how the ACARS logic is set up by the airline.
Most consider the 'Out' time to be the first parking brake release time after the doors are closed. More recently, some operators have started using GPS movement triggers to avoid 'cheating'.
Some might use the time all the doors were closed prior to brake release.
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Mir
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 8:02 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 7):
More recently, some operators have started using GPS movement triggers to avoid 'cheating'.

Which is really just the airline cheating the crews out of pay.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 8:46 am

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Thread starter):
Yesterday I flew UA858 from Shanghai to San Francisco, and after awaking this evening from my jet-lagged stupor, checked the flight stats on FlightAware.
Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Thread starter):
We didn't push back till after 12:30pm and weren't in the air till after 12:45pm.

What does the United website say about the flight? using a 3rd party stat may not be 100%.
I would have always used pushback as "departure".
However perhaps in this case the flight crew were ready to go but were delayed by external factors so their company listed them as "ontime" for statistical purposes.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 8:59 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):

Not at all. The whole idea of delay codes is for trends to be addressed. Releasing the brakes early like this example gives the operator no factual basis to press for improvements. And the aiport in turn can use the false information to justify higher fees.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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cougar15
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 9:09 am

Blocks (off blocks) removed is generally the official STD that is used as basis. Push may be a while thereafter........as will the actual airborne time
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cedarjet
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 9:23 am

For me personally it's when the plane moves, agree with the Aussie Air Navigation Act of 1920 that last door or hatch closed / first door or hatch open is the most useful barometer to any passenger, but really, it's the latter that counts, I don't care if the thing leaves the stand forty minutes late as long as it gets in on time.

As an aside, one of my pet hates is people misunderstanding "departure time" -- they think the published time of departure is takeoff time, so you'll hear about how we took off half an hour late. It's irrational even on first glance, as I like to point out, if you'd got to the gate at what you think is "takeoff time" by definition you would have missed it as the aeroplane would already be on the runway. I even see this in trip reports in the likes of Business Traveller magazine (which isn't exactly the New Yorker, but still, should get this basic stuff right). "Published departure time was 2230 and we didn't take off until 2300..." You're an idiot mate.
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PanHAM
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 9:51 am

There may still be People who Show up at 12h10 to find out that their flight closed 30 minutes ago although it is still at the gate. Usually, the relevant time for passengers is when the flight Closes.
That may be even 1 hour porior to actual departure time, when,like at FRA, a Guillotine curfew of 23h00 exists. In order to meet that curfew LH schedules the last possible Long distance flight at around 22h00 and requests Pax to Show up at the gate 21h00 latest.
There is no "lying" about departure times, it is Standard procedures dispatching a flight.
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ericm2031
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 10:06 am

I believe all mainline UA planes are now designed to record an "out" time as once the wheels start moving.
 
Mir
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 10:56 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
Not at all.

When you're stuck at the gate ready to go but you can't push back because the ramp is congested and so you're not getting paid, it's absolutely the airline cheating the crews out of money.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 11:22 am

"Cheating" must be deliberate. If it's not the Airlines fault it is not cheating. They make it up when traffic is delayed, out- and inbound, otherwise the unions would have cried for better contracts
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mcdu
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:00 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Which is really just the airline cheating the crews out of pay.

Not at UA. There is a brake release time for crew pay and a GPS movement time that is separate. This helps track lengthy ATC pushback delays. Company policy is brakes off when receiving pushback clearance. That clearance may include holding for traffic behind. This could result in several minutes of pay while the aircraft has not had GPS movement. The out time for the app is brake release.
 
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par13del
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:05 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
"Cheating" must be deliberate. If it's not the Airlines fault it is not cheating. They make it up when traffic is delayed, out- and inbound, otherwise the unions would have cried for better contracts

It becomes the airlines fault when they decide to use a metric for compensation which contains major influences totally outside their and their staff's control with no consideration for such events.
If the crew are given time for waiting for the congestion to clear, then the "cheating" mantra goes away.

One can also ask additional questions, what happens during a ground stop, or the flight being delayed to accommodate connecting pax whose inbound flight is delayed, pax boarded while a minor repair item is being worked and takes a wee bit longer, a/c no move, is the crew credited for the time?

Years ago crew time was simple, it started when they clocked in on the job, today to reduce cost it is amazing what has been accepted as normal.
 
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exunited
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:23 pm

According to United.com the flight left a couple minutes early and arrived early so why the inflammatory thread title about "lying" ? Your idea of departure time may not coincide with how the company determines the out time but does that make United's way "lying" ?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 12:36 pm

Its amazing how many ways there are to define departure.
We pay the crews from on duty at the airport until 30 mins after brakes on.
We measure the departure internally by last door closed at least 3 mins before STD, After that is a reportable delay.
STD is the time the brakes are released, and the crews are not allowed to release then before pushback. (the QAR will record the early brake release as a fault).
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 1:31 pm

AFAIK, LH Crews (uote me wrong) get paid a monthy base salary like most employees in Germany (exclduing those who wok for FR). A full time salaryis based on approximately 170 work hours, they get paid vacation, the usual mandatory days/weeks when sick and they get a cmpensation on top when flying, which could be based on "off-on blocks".

Not for mainlne, but I could imagine that LH tries to cut out lay-overs on the wings European product in order to save Hotel and expenses. Nakesthe Job less attractive of course.
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longhauler
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 2:31 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
When you're stuck at the gate ready to go but you can't push back because the ramp is congested and so you're not getting paid, it's absolutely the airline cheating the crews out of money.

Your sentiment makes sense, but in actuality, I would guess it is more for delay tracking as Zeke suggests. If an airline can track the reasons for delays, then address them, eventually flight times are more accurate and delays are eliminated.

But to avoid (or accuse) "cheating" is treading on thin ice, and something I don't think airlines want to get into. Pilots can always get paid for those extra minutes out of which they think they were cheated. Cruising at Mach 0.70 or taxiing at 5 knots comes to mind. This is something that airlines most decidely do not want to occur!
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zeke
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 3:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):

I would suggest the crew would be guilty of fraud/theft if their motivation for removing the brakes it to get more pay they are not entitled to. It's not worth my job, it's not worth a conviction I would have to report on my medical, it is not worth being denied an airside access pass.

It's the sort of infraction employers can terminate employees without prejudice.

To me this is no different to the evil al FA taking mini bottles off the aircraft and selling them online.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
Pilots can always get paid for those extra minutes out of which they think they were cheated. Cruising at Mach 0.70 or taxiing at 5 knots comes to mind. This is something that airlines most decidely do not want to occur!

And that like releasing the brakes early is very transparent when you consider the data that airlines capture from every flight. If there is consistent ramp conjestion at an airport, a simple solution for an airline to address the issue is to move bays.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
luftaom
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 3:14 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
But to avoid (or accuse) "cheating" is treading on thin ice, and something I don't think airlines want to get into. Pilots can always get paid for those extra minutes out of which they think they were cheated. Cruising at Mach 0.70 or taxiing at 5 knots comes to mind. This is something that airlines most decidely do not want to occur!

I have a friend (no, this isn't code for me) who told me that at a previous job the major contract was to fly for someone else and they were paid for that flying by the minute.

When his employer were in the process of cutting back the benefits of the flight crews, they all got together (there weren't that many of them) and decided that they would all take more fuel on (they did their own calculations) and spend much of the cruise with the props humming away with climb power. This was no doubt highly impermissible both in terms of their duty of good faith to their employer and the industrial action regulations but management got the message fairly quickly ...
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G-CIVP
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 3:26 pm

Airlines have built slack into departure times to give themselves some wriggle room. For example, BA283, LHR to LAX (before it switched to A380) always departed at 12.30. It did so for decades. Then at some point it became 12.00. I know this doesn't really answer your question but just illustrates that due to congestion, timings have altered.
 
ckfred
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 3:38 pm

I know that at AA, crew pay starts when all cabin doors are closed, and the parking brake is released. I think that when crew goes "on the clock", the flight is deemed departed.

Conversely, the pay clock stops, when the parking brake is set, and a cabin door is opened. A friend who flies for AA jokes that if they taxi into the gate, set the parking brake, shut down the engines, and ground crew start to open cargo hatches, they are still on the clock, if the CSA is slow to align the jet bridge and open a cabin door.

I did notice that Flight Aware can have a different departure time than AA.com. AA shows the time that the plane is ready to push back, while Flight Aware often shows the time the plane was wheels up.

My friend has said, after more than 25 yeas in the cockpit, that all doors and hatches are closed, the tug is attached, the parking brakes are released, and the jet bridge has been retracted. Yet, Dispatch may not clear to push back, or ATC may hold the plane at the gate.

Last summer, I was flying BA from LHR to ORD. We had pushed back into the alley, and the tug had disconnected. Then, the captain came on the P.A. to explain that we were waiting for clearance from Dispatch to taxi. My assumption is that Dispatch wanted aircraft in a specific sequence in the line for takeoff.
 
CaribClipper
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:04 pm

What is used to determine arrival time?

Parking at the gate/engines off? Door open? Or touch town?
 
BravoOne
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:14 pm

Most major operators these days use the ACARS, OOOI report for pay calculations along with many other record keeping functions. OOOI = Out, OFF, On, In and yes pilots and flight attendants are typically paid by the minute with a few notable exceptions like SWA. What triggers those out reports are usually a combination of brakes released, cabin door closed and in the old days the beacon being turned on. Nothing nefarious about the process and certainly not cheating as the original poster suggested in his ridiculous thread title.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Which is really just the airline cheating the crews out of pay.
Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
Not at all. The whole idea of delay codes is for trends to be addressed. Releasing the brakes early like this example gives the operator no factual basis to press for improvements. And the aiport in turn can use the false information to justify higher fees.

I actually see both sides of this. My opinion is that once the doors are closed the crew is solely responsible for the aircraft and passengers and should be getting paid; in that light I do fundamentally agree with Mir, though that is generally not how things are done at most US airlines at least. Delay tracking IS important for airlines to do as Zeke mentioned, and sometimes small changes can have large cascading effects especially at busy hubs. The reason I tend to downplay this is because the airline can still see the difference between out and off times and most will request a reason for a lengthy delay. They (normally) know when the airplane moves during pushback with IRS/GPS first movement sending a separate signal on many ACARS systems.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):

When you're stuck at the gate ready to go but you can't push back because the ramp is congested and so you're not getting paid, it's absolutely the airline cheating the crews out of money.

I fundamentally agree with this view, although I am not condoning operating contrary to company policies. I DO think the policies should accommodate the crews being paid when the doors are closed, but that's not always the accepted corporate view.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
Quoting Mir (Reply 15):When you're stuck at the gate ready to go but you can't push back because the ramp is congested and so you're not getting paid, it's absolutely the airline cheating the crews out of money.
Your sentiment makes sense, but in actuality, I would guess it is more for delay tracking as Zeke suggests. If an airline can track the reasons for delays, then address them, eventually flight times are more accurate and delays are eliminated.

True, but they can also track this via an examination of out vs. off times in most cases.

Quoting zeke (Reply 23):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):Pilots can always get paid for those extra minutes out of which they think they were cheated. Cruising at Mach 0.70 or taxiing at 5 knots comes to mind. This is something that airlines most decidely do not want to occur!
And that like releasing the brakes early is very transparent when you consider the data that airlines capture from every flight. If there is consistent ramp conjestion at an airport, a simple solution for an airline to address the issue is to move bays.

This is your strongest point, and I DO agree with you that it is important for airlines to monitor systemic delays, I am just less convinced that the out time itself is worth as much as you think it is without other information including delay codes. When I conduct IOE/OE I always make clear what the corporate policies are and make clear that the only thing protecting you is your genuine attempt to adhere to them to the best of your ability tempered by good judgment. In this sense I agree with zeke's approach (though I may personally dislike it).
 
PGNCS
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:20 pm

Quoting exunited (Reply 19):
According to United.com the flight left a couple minutes early and arrived early so why the inflammatory thread title about "lying" ? Your idea of departure time may not coincide with how the company determines the out time but does that make United's way "lying" ?

I forgot to address this excellent point in my initial post; thank you for making it exunited. As long as airlines have consistent methods of calculating and reporting times that are reasonably aligned with other carriers and regulations, there is zero evidence of United "lying" presented here, and I also find the title needlessly inflammatory.
 
Mir
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:24 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 23):
I would suggest the crew would be guilty of fraud/theft if their motivation for removing the brakes it to get more pay they are not entitled to.

Why would they not be entitled to it? They're ready to go, all the preflight preparations are done, why shouldn't they start getting paid? There's plenty of unpaid work as it is - no need to add waiting for pushback approval to that. If you're flying in and out of a congested airport all the time that adds up. If the airline doesn't want to pay it, then they've got an incentive to make their ramp operations more efficient or put some pressure on ATC to do the same.

If it were going the other way, and there was ramp congestion preventing arrivals from getting to their gates, would you suggest that the pilots should not be getting paid for the time they're sitting on a taxiway or on a hold pad waiting for a spot to open up? And if not, why should departures be any different?

Quoting zeke (Reply 23):
To me this is no different to the evil al FA taking mini bottles off the aircraft and selling them online.

There's a world of difference between those.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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cosyr
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:32 pm

I took a flight from EWR to EDI where we sat at the gate in EWR for an hour, had a bit of a line for take off and still got into EDI 30 minutes early thanks to intense tailwinds that the Pilots planned for. If we had left the gate at the scheduled time, we would have arrived EDI at 4:30 in the morning, well before Customs opened so we would have had to wait that hour on arrival instead.

I have no idea how CO or Flightaware might have listed the departure as on time or not, I didn't check, but I think it would have been completely fair to say it departed on time as we intentionally held at the gate so as not to arrive too early.
 
B747forever
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 32):
took a flight from EWR to EDI where we sat at the gate in EWR for an hour, had a bit of a line for take off and still got into EDI 30 minutes early thanks to intense tailwinds that the Pilots planned for. If we had left the gate at the scheduled time, we would have arrived EDI at 4:30 in the morning, well before Customs opened so we would have had to wait that hour on arrival instead.

Have experienced the same type of intentional delay when flying SFO-SYD in order to not arrive before the curfew ends at SYD because of tail winds enroute.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
wjcandee
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 5:06 pm

How did I know from the title that this thread was going to be about another dumb purported issue with FlightAware, and/or that the poster was using FlightAware to draw some unwarranted conclusion about something?

FlightAware isn't necessarily "official" or "airline" information. It's a tool for enthusiasts and frequent fliers that is usually more-or-less accurate as to more-or-less the things it is purporting to report.

It is not some omniscient being waiting to respond to any picayune question somebody has about some particular flight, particularly when terms like "departure time" have about a zillion definitions, depending upon the purpose of the metric.

It says absolutely nothing about what "airlines" are doing with their crew and passengers, especially since airlines go about their business using specific metrics tailored to their employee contracts and regulatory requirements -- metrics that may or may not be shared with FlightAware.
 
Mir
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 29):
Delay tracking IS important for airlines to do as Zeke mentioned, and sometimes small changes can have large cascading effects especially at busy hubs.

Delay tracking is important - I won't dispute that. But the out time is not the only means an airline has of tracking it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 9:25 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 7):

It depends on how the ACARS logic is set up by the airline.
Most consider the 'Out' time to be the first parking brake release time after the doors are closed. More recently, some operators have started using GPS movement triggers to avoid 'cheating'.
Some might use the time all the doors were closed prior to brake release.

And for awhile at UA it could've any one of the three due to differing fleet type rules.


Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 14):

I believe all mainline UA planes are now designed to record an "out" time as once the wheels start moving.

I think the Airbuses still record "OUT" at brake release. Last time I worked the gate we had a flight sit for about 10 minutes after it showed OUT. Unfortunately, that was one of those cases where we had someone miss door close (by several minutes) who just didn't understand that, no, we couldn't just open the aircraft door and let him on.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
twal1011727
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 11:31 pm

Go get on a former USairways flight.(Now AA)
They are the most ridiculous.
ACARS is programmed that they require all doors closed, anti-collision lights on, engine oil pressure and wheels rolling.
PSA (US Express) wont give an out time til the wheels roll FORWARD.
So if the aircraft pushes back at 12 noon but doesn't start rolling FORWARD until 1215
that is a 15 minute delay that is on the station.

This is mainly the CRJ-700 though.

The pilots can ACARS msg the dispatcher and if he is in a good mood, change the time.

Quite B.S.

KD
 
karungguni
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 11:46 pm

On my last flight on UA out of LGA the incoming flight was expected to be a few minutes late and then we boarded for a departure a few minutes after the scheduled time. We were then held due to a runway back up for about an hour. They were switching directions. Since I had a connection I was using the UA App to gauge if I would make the connection. The App was using the time the door closed and not when we took off. It was also not being updated for arrival so I had no way of determining if I would make my connection.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Fri May 20, 2016 11:47 pm

There are advantages to waiting longer because you can get additional flight time out of the crew. Means more money for the crew and more momey for the airline
 
flight152
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 12:07 am

Quoting karungguni (Reply 38):

The united app does update flight progress as the plane becomes airborne and how fast it's reaching its destination based on progress.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 1:11 am

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 25):
Airlines have built slack into departure times to give themselves some wriggle room.

It's surprising how much slack some carriers build into current schedules. For example, I noticed recently that DL, although the only jet operator on the 110 nm YVR-SEA route, using regional partner Embraer 175s and CRJ-700s, has by far the longest block times, slightly over 1 hour. All other flights are operated by AC and AS Dash 8-300s and Q400s with block times as much as 20 minutes faster, and even those times are about 15 minutes longer than 40 or 50 years ago. In fact the DL jet block times on that route are 10 to 15 minutes longer than UA's Boeing 247 schedules on that route (then their only international route) when service started over 80 years ago (1934).

Current YVR-SEA schedules for the 3 carriers with block times on the right. It's the same northbound. One DL E-175 SEA-YVR even has a 1:13 block time and that's a flight departing at 10 PM, hardly a peak period. An AS Q400 one hour later is 0.49, 24 minutes faster. Many of the DL flights must arrive half an hour early, as AS/AC are also often a few minutes early.

DL E75 0600-0703 1:03
DL CR7 0918-1023 1:05
DL E75 1203-1308 1:05
DL E75 1306-1410 1:04
DL E75 1632-1740 1:08

AS DH4 0600-0644 0.44
AS DH4 0941-1030 0.49
AS DH4 1115-1205 0.50
AS DH4 1540-1629 0.49
AS DH4 1711-1800 0.49
AS DH4 2012-2100 0.48

AC DH3 0825-0915 0.50
AC DH3 1120-1210 0.50
AC DH3 1415-1505 0.50
AC DH3 1740-1831 0.51

For comparison, YVR-SEA schedules November 1979, UA and Pacific Western the two operators then:

UA 721 0715-0752 0.37
PW 732 0730-0805 0.35
PW 732 1230-1305 0.35
UA 722 1600-1637 0.37
UA 722 1915-1952 0.37
PW 732 2100-2135 0.35
UA 722 2300-2337 0.37

And 81 years ago, from July 1935 UA timetable, a year after they started service YVR-SEA. Almost the same block time as current AC/AS schedules and as much as 18 minutes faster than DL's current jet schedules.

UA Boeing 247 0955-1045 0.50

[Edited 2016-05-20 18:16:06]
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 2:32 am

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 37):
PSA (US Express) wont give an out time til the wheels roll FORWARD.
So if the aircraft pushes back at 12 noon but doesn't start rolling FORWARD until 1215
that is a 15 minute delay that is on the station.

Does it need more than a full rotation forward? I would think a fairly simple fix for this (rather stupid) methodology would be to pull the plane forward a couple of feet (as a "towbar test") and then push it.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
Lexy
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 3:38 am

Brakes release starts the time.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
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zeke
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 5:48 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 29):

This is your strongest point, and I DO agree with you that it is important for airlines to monitor systemic delays, I am just less convinced that the out time itself is worth as much as you think it is without other information including delay codes

We found the data the flight crew put down as being useless, our ground staff now provide the delay codes.

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
Why would they not be entitled to it? They're ready to go, all the preflight preparations are done, why shouldn't they start getting paid?

For two reasons, first is the intent of this, and second is the implications of the practice. The intent is crew to be paid a variable hourly amount based upon how much they fly, the maximum they can earn is 900 hours a year. You are incorrect in stating the crew are not being paid during cockpit preparations, the crew are being being paid even if they fly zero hours. The salary consists of many components, the hourly flight pay you are referring to is just one component.

Second is the impact of this practice on the pilots flight and duty times. These times are not unlimited, by artificially padding flight time by releasing brakes when the aircraft is not cleared to move anywhere does not conform to the aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off which then has a regulatory impact on the pilots and operators. This has become so problematic that more and more airlines are putting either a number of wheel rotations or GPS position movement to be this basis for everything. Again because of the lack of professionalism and a sense of entitlement airlines have had to resort to other technology to gather the actual data needed.

It also make me wonder, if the crew bend this SOP, what other SOPS will they bend for their own perceived benefit ?

If you genuinely think aircrew are sitting in the aircraft for increased extended periods of time because of ground delays, you could have used the delays codes as evidence to change your contact base pay. By bypassing the SOP the pilot group have just given the evidence to management that your contract does not need to be changed because you leave on time. Pilots are sometimes their own worst enemies, they never think though some long term unintended consequences, this is a classic example.
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Mir
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 6:31 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 44):
You are incorrect in stating the crew are not being paid during cockpit preparations, the crew are being being paid even if they fly zero hours.

Up to a certain point, sure. But once you've exceeded the monthly guarantee, then you're strictly based on block time.

Quoting zeke (Reply 44):
If you genuinely think aircrew are sitting in the aircraft for increased extended periods of time because of ground delays, you could have used the delays codes as evidence to change your contact base pay.

But you just said your company disregards the pilot delay codes because they consider them useless.

-Mir
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ericm2031
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sat May 21, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 42):

Does it need more than a full rotation forward? I would think a fairly simple fix for this (rather stupid) methodology would be to pull the plane forward a couple of feet (as a "towbar test") and then push it.

I would wonder that too. Because if you're using a LEKTRO you would probably record an OUT time before a towbar since you would roll forward into the bucket.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Sun May 22, 2016 2:41 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
But you just said your company disregards the pilot delay codes because they consider them useless.

Because we are often subject to hours of flow control into China, we have have all doors closed ready to go and then get told of a flow control delay of 15 minutes to 12 hours. You stay on the aircraft for as long as practical it comes a time however when the flight is cancelled and everyone needs to get off including the crew. Use you theory of realsing the brakes when you are ready, how do you explain crew actions for logging flight time for not moving from the gate ?

Do you think they are "entitled" to log that "flight time" ?

Also if you have extensive flow control, the push-back tug is not going to wait, they will go and work on aircraft that is going to get a clearance.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Mon May 23, 2016 2:45 am

Quoting CaribClipper (Reply 27):
What is used to determine arrival time?

Usually either parking brakes being set or door open time.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20014
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Airlines Lying About Departure Times?

Mon May 23, 2016 3:08 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 26):
Last summer, I was flying BA from LHR to ORD. We had pushed back into the alley, and the tug had disconnected. Then, the captain came on the P.A. to explain that we were waiting for clearance from Dispatch to taxi. My assumption is that Dispatch wanted aircraft in a specific sequence in the line for takeoff.

Coudl be that ground control needed to clear the bay for incoming traffic. You'd rather not push back before you can taxi.

Dispatch doesn't control ground movements. Ground control does. Mentioning dispatch they could have been waiting for the final loadsheet to come through.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 33):

Have experienced the same type of intentional delay when flying SFO-SYD in order to not arrive before the curfew ends at SYD because of tail winds enroute.

Sydney is notorious for this. The fine for landing early is massive.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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