VX321
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 6:00 pm

Great News!!! I can't wait for a rendering in the VietJet livery. However, I do feel like this order is tied to Obama's visit to Vietnam more than the airline's need. But I shouldn't really complain because now I can hope for a 1:400 model of it.  
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 6:05 pm

Quoting VX321 (Reply 50):
Great News!!! I can't wait for a rendering in the VietJet livery. However, I do feel like this order is tied to Obama's visit to Vietnam more than the airline's need. But I shouldn't really complain because now I can hope for a 1:400 model of it.  

It's tied to a whole lot of things including lifting the US Arms Embargo and building ties with a country seeking a.bit of help dealing with China.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 6:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):

100% agree. Yes the Max 200 is a great aircraft with great economics, and I will also agree with anyone who said it was a merit based purchase. But to say it wasn't political and only merit based in my opinion is naive. US President visits, makes us and Vietnam friends again, lifts the arms export ban, and on the day all of that happens a local airline buys $11 billion dollars worth of planes.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 6:14 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
Simple. The US has had a very chilly relationship with Vietnam ever since the end of the war. The President essentially ends that (including ending the arms embargo), and what can Vietnam do in return to show goodwill? Order some Boeing planes. That is what it looks like to me.

That is a bit flimsy considering Vietnam Airlines has bought 777s and 787s in the past, and considering that the biggest tent-pole for Vietnam was getting off the arms embargo list, because I think they want a closer security tie with the US because of China. Better off spending that money on US armaments.
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 53):

That is a bit flimsy considering Vietnam Airlines has bought 777s and 787s in the past, and considering that the biggest tent-pole for Vietnam was getting off the arms embargo list, because I think they want a closer security tie with the US because of China. Better off spending that money on US armaments.

Up to the point of even doing joint naval exercises is recent times.

Vietnam and the US have been warming up for some time. A Vietnamese company even opened a factory in a small Arkansas town to make goods for IKEA in the States.
 
alfa164
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
The US has had a very chilly relationship with Vietnam ever since the end of the war. The President essentially ends that (including ending the arms embargo), and what can Vietnam do in return to show goodwill? Order some Boeing planes. That is what it looks like to me.

There is also the opposite possibility: that VietJet had really wanted 737's all along, but bought Airbus because of the chilly relations between the USA and Vietnam. Now that hinderance is no longer applicable.

Those arguments work both ways.
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MaxxFlyer
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 7:07 pm

I cannot believe that all these LCC's in Asia are going to actually take all the aircraft they are ordering. There many things that can happen in a globalized world that will cause traffic to plummet, etc. Looks like serious overdoing it on the orders.
 
eal
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 7:13 pm

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 46):
Malindo

I included it as apart of Lion Air, thank you for completing the list!
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 7:17 pm

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 51):
It's tied to a whole lot of things including lifting the US Arms Embargo and building ties with a country seeking a.bit of help dealing with China.

While the overall relationship with Vietnam is improving, I agree that the 100 Boeing plane deal is directly related with the lifting of the arms embargo.

A while back there was rumors that the US could sell Vietnam with some "demilitarized" P-3's as the US fleets starts to shed them. This is to counter China's activities with the South China Sea. Now with the embargo lifted, they may be able to get the frames with bombs and all (minus the sensitive equipment?) . Newly built P-8I's would probably be a bridge too far and a fist full of dollars too much.

bt
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lostsound
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 7:46 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 8):
Yes, a very important win for Boeing to get an Airbus exclusive operator to switch to the MAX. Seems like this will be a great year for the MAX and the gap in orders will close.

Jumping the gun. Imo the MAX won't ever drastically close the gap for almost all the airlines who could require this sized aircraft have already ordered them.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 8:05 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 43):
The ASEAN market is about to become a bloodbath and I'm quite excited to see how it will go. For reference here are the order books for the largest LCC's in the region.

Lion Air (Indonesia): Batik Air (Indonesia), Wings Air (Indonesia), Malindo Air (Malaysia), Thai Lion Air (Thailand)
-Currently hold the largest percentage of the Indonesian domestic market
-469 Aircraft on order: 201 737MAX, 43 737NG, 38 A320CEO, 183 A320/1NEO, 10 A330 (Batik Air), 9 ATR72 (Wings Air)

Air Asia (Malaysia): Thailand, Indonesia, India, Japan, Philippines, Air Asia X (Malaysia), Thai Air Asia X, Indonesia Air Asia X
-Currently the largest LCC in Asia
-341 Aircraft on order: 108 A320CEO (Spread throughout the group), 341 A320NEO, 4 A330CEO, 66 A330NEO, 10 A350

Vietjet (Vietnam)
-Largest private Vietnamese carrier
-284 Aircraft on Order: 104 A320/1 CEO, 90 A320NEO, 100 737MAX

Citilink (Indonesia)
-LCC of Garuda
-58 Aircraft on Order: 13 A320CEO, 35 A320NEO, 10 A330CEO

Cebu Pacific (Philippines)
-49 Aircraft on Order: 2 A320CEO, 30 A321NEO, 1 A330CEO, 16 ATR72

Tigerair (Singapore)
-37 A320NEO on Order

JetStar (SE Asian Carriers): JetStar Pacific (Vietnam), JetStar Asia (Singapore)
-15 A320 CEO on order (JetStar Pacific)

NokAir (Thailand)
-LCC of Thai
-13 Aircraft on Order: 8 737MAX, 5 737NG

Scoot (Singapore)
-9 787 on Order

+ HK Express 12 Airbus A320neo leased from Norwegian's wholly owned leasing company Arctic Aviation Assets Ltd
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 11:20 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 53):
That is a bit flimsy considering Vietnam Airlines has bought 777s and 787s in the past, and considering that the biggest tent-pole for Vietnam was getting off the arms embargo list, because I think they want a closer security tie with the US because of China. Better off spending that money on US armaments.

With all of those A320's on order? Unless someone can show that they needed them faster than Airbus could produce them (which I doubt), I still see this as political. For that matter, the 787 order probably was as well.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 55):
There is also the opposite possibility: that VietJet had really wanted 737's all along, but bought Airbus because of the chilly relations between the USA and Vietnam. Now that hinderance is no longer applicable.

That is possible, but I would consider it unlikely. My assessment of the A320-737 matchup is that the A319 (ceo) and 73G are very close to equal, with the A319 perhaps a bit better on long missions and the 73G slightly better on short ones. The A320 and 738 are also very close, but the 738 has a slight edge because of greater capacity. But the A321 is clearly ahead of the 739ER except for short missions. With the NEO vs. MAX the matchup changes-the NEO has given the A320 family more than the MAX gave the 737's, and therefore almost all of the matchups are going to favor the NEO. So why would an airline prefer the 737 over the A320 going forward? The only rational reason is that they have a large fleet and long history with the 737, and the advantages of the A320 are not enough to overcome that. Which has been the case with most of the purchasers of the 737. I see no rational reason why an operator with a fleet of A320's and many more on order would desire to switch. And from what I gather they are not canceling any of the A320 orders or planning to dump any of the ones they have.
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VC10er
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 11:30 pm

Congrats to Boeing. But someone needs to call the "Livery Doctor, FAST!"  
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Viscount724
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Mon May 23, 2016 11:47 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 14):
The 737 MAX 200 is the High Density version of the MAX 8. 200 Passengers

Recent article on VietJet's billionaire female owner.
http://www.ttrweekly.com/site/2016/0...lionaire-status-for-vietjet-owner/
 
alfa164
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 46):
Lao Central Airlines (Laos)
- First and Only LCC of Laos
- 3 active aircraft
- 2x SSJ-100 on order

You can, for now, take them off the list. The 2 SSJ's were never delivered, and have apparently gone to Putin'rs personal fleet. The 737's are - and have been for the past 12 months, at least -sitting on t he apron at Vientiane Airport.

The group that owned the airline has been seeking to sell the operation, so far to no avail.

[Edited 2016-05-23 17:48:19]
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SXDFC
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 12:53 am

Is the MAX 200 somewhat longer than the regular 8MAX?
 
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OneSexyL1011
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:14 am

200 seats on a -8 series frame. My goodness gracious that is packing them in.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:50 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 23):
It's a possibility, but perhaps they just want one aircraft size 190-200 seats for all markets. The Ryanair model...

I doubt that the MAX 200 and the A321 would seat a similar number of people, if that's what you're saying. The onboard experience would be like night and day. I'm guessing that the neo's will be close to 240 when delivered.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 61):
With all of those A320's on order? Unless someone can show that they needed them faster than Airbus could produce them (which I doubt), I still see this as political. For that matter, the 787 order probably was as well.

Man, you don't think much of Boeing, do you?  
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 61):
So why would an airline prefer the 737 over the A320 going forward?

Price?
Delivery schedule?
Financing?
Dual fleet to play builder's off one-another?

Why did SilkAir switch? Why did Air Canada switch? Why do some carriers buy both?

I'm not the biggest fan of the MAX, but not everyone can get an A32Xneo when they want it or at the price that they want. I'm absolutely certain that politics can play a role, but it's not the only reason.

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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
traindoc
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 2:15 am

Where on earth will they be flying over 200 narrow body jets? Is there that much demand for travel within the country, as well as to and from Vietnam? Just my 2 cents.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 2:29 am

Quoting traindoc (Reply 68):

Where on earth will they be flying over 200 narrow body jets? Is there that much demand for travel within the country, as well as to and from Vietnam? Just my 2 cents.

You can get from anywhere in Southeast Asia to anywhere else through SGN.

3100 nm @ SGN



(via www.gcmaps.com)

[Edited 2016-05-23 19:31:01]
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YLWbased
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 3:49 am

Some more information - confirmed new route by VJ in 2016 until today:

Domestic:

HPH-PQC | 4x Weekly | From May
HAN-TBB | Daily | From May
HPH-DLI | 3x Weekly | From May
HPH-BMV | 3x Weekly | From May

International:

DAD-MFM | 3x Weekly | From May
SGN-TNN | 4x Weekly | From June
SGN-KUL | Daily | From June
SGN-BKK | +1 Daily | From June
SGN-TPE | +1 Daily | From June
HAN-TPE | 3x Weekly | From Feb
SGN-TPE | +2 Weekly | From Jan

And due to aircraft shortage, HAN-TPE has been temp suspended to give way to SGN-TPE service increase, the route will resume as soon as new aircraft is delivered.

One side note:

Vietnam’s two low cost carriers, Jetstar Pacific and VietJet Air, were among the fastest growing Southeast Asian airlines in 2015. Both LCCs have responded to burgeoning demand in Vietnam, which has become the fastest growing domestic market in Asia.

VietJet seat capacity is up 74% year over year, making it the second fastest growing Southeast Asian airline in 2015 after Thai Lion Air. VietJet is now the 11th largest Southeast Asian airline based on seat capacity, having risen five places in 2015.

Jetstar Pacific seat capacity is up 52% year over year, making it the third fastest growing airline in Southeast Asia. Jetstar Pacific added 20 routes in 2015, growing its network to 34 routes, while VietJet added 10 for a total of 35 routes.

YLWbased

[Edited 2016-05-23 20:54:10]
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RWA380
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 4:48 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 29):
Maybe they are banking on the new ASEAN open skies agreement amd they want to be the FR of SE Asia.

You can bet on it, I've met with VietJet people in a casual setting & ASEAN has been a goal for a long time, I expect smaller airlines to garner all the traffic they can get flying as many heavy routes they can.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 32):
Sounds like politics to me. The US President visits, makes nice, and they buy some aircraft from our biggest exporter. I don't think it had anything at all to do with the merits of the aircraft

It's likely more than just political, the orders are for also military planes (The US wants to arm these countries that are near the Spratleys & the man made Islands China is claiming in the South China Sea to be off limits to any other country. There were orders placed with GE today for Electrical generators & Aircraft engines, there was no reason for VietJet to order anything with this, they likely wanted the plane & now have the opportunity to actually order it now.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 45):
I am currently in Hanoi and had a beer at the bar of my hotel. Suddenly a group of bodyguards appeared and US Secretary of States John Kerry took a seat next to me

I've met Mr. Kerry in a Georgetown Restaurant years & years ago, he is a nice man to have a casual & brief conversation with. Good thing spotters don't look threatening. LOL!

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
There are not that many countries that have been ostracized by the US the way Vietnam has.

We were at war with them, we had to rescue people off the rooftop of the American Embassy in Hanai with helicopters, they were communist & have only in the past decade or two been "open for business" to tourists, which is why this is still a fantastic country to visit, I'd go back in a minute.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
Simple. The US has had a very chilly relationship with Vietnam ever since the end of the war.
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
and what can Vietnam do in return to show goodwill? Order some Boeing planes. That is what it looks like to me.
Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 54):
Vietnam and the US have been warming up for some time.

Decades & expect it to continue to strengthen as time passes. The US & China are going to have issues with these new Islands that China is creating in the South China Sea. The Chinese have been buzzing US planes & aircraft, with a Chinese fighter doing a barrel roll over the top of a US data collecting aircraft this week alone. The hotly contested Islands are claimed by Vietnam, Cambodia China, Taiwan & God knows who else, the US is going to be quickly put in the middle, as China wants to control all the ocean going traffic in the South China Sea, so by making Islands they claim as theirs, they can extend their borders off the Islands 13 miles & that is going to be a problem with Navigation. The US military has been crossing the Sea to keep things going. If it were left to China, they would block any country's vessel they do not approve of, including the USA.

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 54):
A Vietnamese company even opened a factory in a small Arkansas town to make goods for IKEA in the States.

I hope it pays well, or better than Vietnam at least. Interesting, thanks or sharing.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 55):

There is also the opposite possibility: that VietJet had really wanted 737's all along, but bought Airbus because of the chilly relations between the USA and Vietnam. Now that hinderance is no longer applicable

Bingo, there you go, just like any other carrier, they can identify the markets where the MAX can work & the Airbus can't or v.v. It's very easy to speculate, bit really no airline orders 100 aircraft just to appease the leader of another country. If it were political, it would have been for a lot less planes.
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seahawk
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 5:16 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 71):
Bingo, there you go, just like any other carrier, they can identify the markets where the MAX can work & the Airbus can't or v.v. It's very easy to speculate, bit really no airline orders 100 aircraft just to appease the leader of another country. If it were political, it would have been for a lot less planes.

I would just see it as a vote of limited confidence in the NEO. And if you consider how the first operator is struggeling the GTF can easily be a dud and without it the MAX might be the better plane.
 
chiad
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 6:52 am

Quoting traindoc (Reply 68):
Where on earth will they be flying over 200 narrow body jets? Is there that much demand for travel within the country, as well as to and from Vietnam? Just my 2 cents.

If all goes as planned the fleet should top 300 jets.
The growth of the middle-class in Southeast Asia (and India, China and the countries in between) is booming.
I think that should compose about 50% of the population of our planet.

Therefore:

Quoting eal (Reply 43):

Lion Air (Indonesia): Batik Air (Indonesia), Wings Air (Indonesia), Malindo Air (Malaysia), Thai Lion Air (Thailand)
-Currently hold the largest percentage of the Indonesian domestic market
-469 Aircraft on order: 201 737MAX, 43 737NG, 38 A320CEO, 183 A320/1NEO, 10 A330 (Batik Air), 9 ATR72 (Wings Air)

Air Asia (Malaysia): Thailand, Indonesia, India, Japan, Philippines, Air Asia X (Malaysia), Thai Air Asia X, Indonesia Air Asia X
-Currently the largest LCC in Asia
-341 Aircraft on order: 108 A320CEO (Spread throughout the group), 341 A320NEO, 4 A330CEO, 66 A330NEO, 10 A350

Vietjet (Vietnam)
-Largest private Vietnamese carrier
-284 Aircraft on Order: 104 A320/1 CEO, 90 A320NEO, 100 737MAX

Citilink (Indonesia)
-LCC of Garuda
-58 Aircraft on Order: 13 A320CEO, 35 A320NEO, 10 A330CEO

Cebu Pacific (Philippines)
-49 Aircraft on Order: 2 A320CEO, 30 A321NEO, 1 A330CEO, 16 ATR72

Tigerair (Singapore)
-37 A320NEO on Order

JetStar (SE Asian Carriers): JetStar Pacific (Vietnam), JetStar Asia (Singapore)
-15 A320 CEO on order (JetStar Pacific)

NokAir (Thailand)
-LCC of Thai
-13 Aircraft on Order: 8 737MAX, 5 737NG

Scoot (Singapore)
-9 787 on Order
 
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scbriml
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 8:06 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 69):
You can get from anywhere in Southeast Asia to anywhere else through SGN.

Yes, there's over 3 billion people living in the circle!

Quoting seahawk (Reply 72):
I would just see it as a vote of limited confidence in the NEO.

Desperate, much? You really don't like Airbus, do you?   
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seahawk
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 8:11 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 74):
Desperate, much? You really don't like Airbus, do you?

Considering that they have chosen the PurePower engine for their NEO, I would understand if they would have some doubts about their NEOs at the moment
 
travelhound
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 8:33 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 38):
I wonder how Vietnamese airlines, and Qantas owned Jetstar Pacific will respond? Tough to beat so much low cost capacity! Good news for Vietnam, I hope it helps facilitate more social and economic development!

Wait and see. Vietnam has been the fastest growing ASEAN economy for quite a while now. .... and contrary to ones perceptions shop keepers can earn $2,000.00/month. With a population of 80 million who don't mind travelling Vietjet could be on a winner.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 45):
Off-topic: I am currently in Hanoi and had a beer at the bar of my hotel. Suddenly a group of bodyguards appeared and US Secretary of States John Kerry took a seat next to me (one of the bodyguards screened me with his eyes, seems as if former planespotters do not look like terrorists...)

How is the new Hanoi airport. They were almost complete when I was last there.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 69):
Quoting traindoc (Reply 68):

Where on earth will they be flying over 200 narrow body jets? Is there that much demand for travel within the country, as well as to and from Vietnam? Just my 2 cents.

You can get from anywhere in Southeast Asia to anywhere else through SGN.

SGN, is very central, but the airport is currently operating at close to capacity. There was talk of a new airport, but I am not too sure where that has headed.
 
YLWbased
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 10:08 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 76):
SGN, is very central, but the airport is currently operating at close to capacity. There was talk of a new airport, but I am not too sure where that has headed.

Construction has started as of Jan, 2016.

YLWbased
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Erebus
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 12:51 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 75):
Considering that they have chosen the PurePower engine for their NEO, I would understand if they would have some doubts about their NEOs at the moment

Instead of signing up for an entirely new type, it was a matter of ordering LEAP powered neos, then.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:04 pm

It's a huge order and it raises some questions about the narrowbody backlog:

Narrowbody Order Bubble Keeps Building (by KarelXWB May 24 2016 in Civil Aviation)

I also wonder how much political negotiation was involved with this order. At the same time, the US fully lifts an arms embargo on Vietnam.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 8):
Yes, a very important win for Boeing to get an Airbus exclusive operator to switch to the MAX. Seems like this will be a great year for the MAX and the gap in orders will close.

Not sure why you believe the airline would switch to the 737 MAX. Last year VietJet ordered a bunch of A320 family aircraft. VietJet is yet another airline that split its orders between the two manufacturers.

Quoting Erebus (Reply 78):
Instead of signing up for an entirely new type, it was a matter of ordering LEAP powered neos, then.

  

[Edited 2016-05-24 06:30:15]
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seahawk
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:13 pm

Quoting Erebus (Reply 78):
nstead of signing up for an entirely new type, it was a matter of ordering LEAP powered neos, then.

Surely the test results of the MAX will have played a part and convinced them to not order more Airbuses and go for the reliable, efficient and proven 737.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 79):
Not sure why you believe the airline would switch to the 737 MAX. Last year VietJet ordered a bunch of A320 family aircraft. VietJet is yet another airline that split its orders between the two manufacturers.

Well something must have changed, so that they did not order more A320s.
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:29 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 79):
I also wonder how much political force was involved with this order. At the same time, the US fully lifts an arms embargo on Vietnam.

That suggests political negotiation rather than political force, no?
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KarelXWB
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:30 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 81):
That suggests political negotiation rather than political force, no?

Fixed!  
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eal
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 1:33 pm

I don't think that the desire to break "frosty relations" with the United States is the reason Vietnamese airlines order American aircraft. It doesn't add up when you consider the reality of modern Vietnam-US relations. 78% of Vietnamese have a favorable idea of the United States. Not to mention the growing ties between the two countries militarily in order to counter China. That's a cheap excuse, simple thing is that VietJet, if it wanted to remain competitive as the NEO orders rolled into to the likes of Air Asia and Lion Air, would have had to been able to expand just as quickly. Considering the NEO order book is saturated, they chose the MAX Probably because it would've gotten to them when they needed them.
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 4:09 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 80):
Well something must have changed, so that they did not order more A320s.

Which could be aggressive pricing by Boeing, some political deal or maybe just too long delivery times for the A320-neo? Or they are just splitting the risk between two aircraft and engine manufacturers? Without knowing the exact details it is impossible to say what exactly motivated the move to also order the B737-MAX after they already bought a load of A320-neo's.
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 80):
Surely the test results of the MAX will have played a part and convinced them to not order more Airbuses and go for the reliable, efficient and proven 737.

Then you should be expecting a trend from now on, or else this particular data point and the other circumstances under it was signed would bear too much of a coincidence.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 6:56 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 32):
Sounds like politics to me. The US President visits, makes nice, and they buy some aircraft from our biggest exporter. I don't think it had anything at all to do with the merits of the aircraft.

Of course not. I mean, Obama is so influential that he can convince a foreign company to spend Billions $$$$ on something that has no merit. Sure.  

Obama was also present at Copa's signing for their large MAX order as well. So despite being a long-time 737 operator, that MUST mean that order was entirely political too, right?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 32):
Sounds like politics to me. The US President visits, makes nice, and they buy some aircraft from our biggest exporter. I don't think it had anything at all to do with the merits of the aircraft.

Guess merit had nothing to do with Vietnam Airlines ordering the 787 when their President visited the United States, either.

Apparently not. While we're at it, we can also add VN's A350 and A32X orders, as well as VietJet's A32X orders. Clearly all political.


Hamlet69
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 9:25 pm

Quoting Reply 66):
200 seats on a -8 series frame. My goodness gracious that is packing them in.

Indeed, but no worse than ~190 on the A320 (which has a shorter cabin), as Hong Kong Express is planning: Hong Kong Express To Put 188 Seats In A320neo (by KarelXWB May 24 2016 in Civil Aviation)

And if you toss out the galleys, you can get 195 in an A320 (per the Type Certificate).   

At least the MAX now has (the option of) 18 inch wide seats like the A320 so even if your knees are in your chin, you can stretch your shoulders.  
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 9:41 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 83):
I don't think that the desire to break "frosty relations" with the United States is the reason Vietnamese airlines order American aircraft. It doesn't add up when you consider the reality of modern Vietnam-US relations. 78% of Vietnamese have a favorable idea of the United States. Not to mention the growing ties between the two countries militarily in order to counter China. That's a cheap excuse, simple thing is that VietJet, if it wanted to remain competitive as the NEO orders rolled into to the likes of Air Asia and Lion Air, would have had to been able to expand just as quickly.

That's why I suggested the word 'negotiation' earlier. It's not hard to imagine both sides wanted Vietnam to stand a bit taller on the world stage, without provoking China too badly. It's helpful for both to be able to say the ability to buy arms was tied to the big airplane order. If there hadn't been something in exchange it'd look a lot more provocative. Now it just looks like business.
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 80):
Surely the test results of the MAX will have played a part and convinced them to not order more Airbuses and go for the reliable, efficient and proven 737.

I think that's a stretch to assume.

-Dave
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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 11:19 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 67):
Man, you don't think much of Boeing, do you?

Actually, I am a huge Boeing fan, which I have proclaimed many times on this forum. But I am also a realist, and just because I like Boeing does not mean that I am blind to where their products fall behind. And while the 737NG series was basically equal to the A320 series, I feel that the NEO is superior to the MAX almost across the board. That feeling is based on engineering realities, not hype or prejudice. Airbus was able to accommodate the ideal engine diameters on the NEO, while Boeing was forced to compromise, and was unable to utilize the GTF (which I believe has much more potential than the LEAP-X). The big weakness of the 737 is its short landing gear, and it has come to the point now where it is crippling the 737 going forward. Were Boeing to redesign it so that it could have decent length landing gear it could still be competitive, but apparently that is not feasible. So until they can launch the NSA Boeing is going to be in a difficult spot in the narrowbody market. Fortunately Airbus cannot supply all the demand, and the MAX is not so terribly behind the NEO that loyal Boeing customers (WN) are not going to defect, but I do believe that if they hold 40% of the narrowbody market they will be doing well.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 72):
I would just see it as a vote of limited confidence in the NEO. And if you consider how the first operator is struggeling the GTF can easily be a dud and without it the MAX might be the better plane.

But you can also get the NEO with the LEAP-X, and a better one than is on the MAX.

Quoting eal (Reply 83):
That's a cheap excuse, simple thing is that VietJet, if it wanted to remain competitive as the NEO orders rolled into to the likes of Air Asia and Lion Air, would have had to been able to expand just as quickly. Considering the NEO order book is saturated, they chose the MAX Probably because it would've gotten to them when they needed them.

That is the one reason that I can see that is not political. I suspect that delivery slots for the MAX are easier to get (and earlier) than for the NEO, and there certainly are a lot of surging competitors in that corner of the world.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Tue May 24, 2016 11:30 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 90):
Actually, I am a huge Boeing fan, which I have proclaimed many times on this forum. But I am also a realist, and just because I like Boeing does not mean that I am blind to where their products fall behind. And while the 737NG series was basically equal to the A320 series, I feel that the NEO is superior to the MAX almost across the board. That feeling is based on engineering realities, not hype or prejudice. Airbus was able to accommodate the ideal engine diameters on the NEO, while Boeing was forced to compromise, and was unable to utilize the GTF (which I believe has much more potential than the LEAP-X). The big weakness of the 737 is its short landing gear, and it has come to the point now where it is crippling the 737 going forward. Were Boeing to redesign it so that it could have decent length landing gear it could still be competitive, but apparently that is not feasible. So until they can launch the NSA Boeing is going to be in a difficult spot in the narrowbody market. Fortunately Airbus cannot supply all the demand, and the MAX is not so terribly behind the NEO that loyal Boeing customers (WN) are not going to defect, but I do believe that if they hold 40% of the narrowbody market they will be doing well.

Ya, I don't disagree with any of that - it's pretty much what we all know about the current state of the 737 family.

But you threw the 787 in as well. What's your beef with it?

-Dave
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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 12:32 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 90):
Actually, I am a huge Boeing fan, which I have proclaimed many times on this forum. But I am also a realist, and just because I like Boeing does not mean that I am blind to where their products fall behind.

I can't disagree overall. And I am certainly not going to argue, like a few above, that the MAX will win back market share over time. It will always remain 800-1200 orders behind, depending on when one chooses to look.

But I am of the opinion (clearly not shared by much of A.net) that the -8 will continue to hold it's own vis-a-vi the A320, while the stretched -7 will be the dominant player vs. the A319. Which will allow the MAX to become a 2-model player again. Where I don't have any real hope, however, is whatever Boeing tries to take on the A321 with that is not a clean-sheet MoM. That's where the true limitation of the 737 frame is just insurmountable. Of course, I am also in the minority opinion, I know, that says if/when Boeing does launch a MoM, Airbus will not be able to easily match it with an upgraded A321. Cest le vie.


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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 1:10 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 91):
But you threw the 787 in as well. What's your beef with it?

Actually, I did not say anything about the 787 other than I thought that deal was political as well. I think the 787 is a superb plane, in spite of its difficult beginning.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 92):
Of course, I am also in the minority opinion, I know, that says if/when Boeing does launch a MoM, Airbus will not be able to easily match it with an upgraded A321. Cest le vie.

I suspect Boeing is going to wait on launching any new clean-sheet design until there is a better material than CFRP as it stands now. The real problem with current CFRP is that it requires baking in an autoclave. When that can be bypassed I believe Boeing will launch a new narrowbody, and if it can be produced in quantity in a reasonable time frame (60/month) then Airbus will not be able to answer except with a clean sheet of their own. As for launching the MoM without the NSA, I just do not see that there is enough of a market to justify a clean sheet design. I did think the Mad MAX (new wing and landing gear for a LONG 737 fuselage) had potential, but I gather Boeing brass are not enthusiastic.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 1:28 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 93):
Actually, I did not say anything about the 787 other than I thought that deal was political as well

I guess that was what was throwing me off. You went on about how the only reason they'd order the 737 was likely for political reasons, then threw the 787 in as well. Why couldn't that be on merit?

It's really not a big deal to me. I was just trying to understand the connection.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 2:21 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 87):
At least the MAX now has (the option of) 18 inch wide seats like the A320 so even if your knees are in your chin, you can stretch your shoulders.

How do they get 6 inches more width out of the same fuselage that every Boeing narrowbody has had since the 707? Even if they can gain a little width from thinner cabin walls and fittings, 6 inches sounds extreme.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 2:29 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 95):
How do they get 6 inches more width out of the same fuselage that every Boeing narrowbody has had since the 707? Even if they can gain a little width from thinner cabin walls and fittings, 6 inches sounds extreme.

I'm guessing it's closer to 4"-5" and it comes partially from the aisle.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 2:31 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 76):
SGN, is very central, but the airport is currently operating at close to capacity. There was talk of a new airport, but I am not too sure where that has headed.

I just picked SGN at random. It's not the only airport in Vietnam.
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 2:46 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 95):
ow do they get 6 inches more width out of the same fuselage that every Boeing narrowbody has had since the 707?
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 96):
I'm guessing it's closer to 4"-5" and it comes partially from the aisle.

3 inches probably from the aisle (20 down to 17) and then another three from the seats themselves (narrower armrests, I imagine).
 
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RE: Vietjet Orders 100 Boeing 737 MAX 200

Wed May 25, 2016 2:47 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 80):
and go for the reliable, efficient and proven 737.

And the A320 isn't reliable, efficient and proven??
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