EU Seeks Openskies With ASEAN, Turkey, Qatar & UAE

LAXintl · Thu May 26, 2016 1:35 am

Under the current Dutch presidency, the European Commission (EC) is expected to be granted four mandates to start talks on comprehensive air-transport agreements at its June 7 meeting of the EU’s Transport ministers.

The EC mandates concern opening open-skies talks with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), Turkey, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar.

The mandates are part of the EC’s aviation strategy that was unveiled in December which seeks to establish block wide agreements covering the air-transport sector, replacing remaining individual member agreements.

The mandates which are expected to take 3–4 years negotiate in total would include fair-competition clause, but more strict proposals by some members like Germany have been rejected.

EC Expecting Four Open-Skies Mandates In June
http://aviationweek.com/awincommerci...ting-four-open-skies-mandates-june

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Surprise move, but I suppose the EC's overall goal of establishing increased number of block wide agreements takes precedence.
In practice the ASA's with these 4 national groups in many cases is very liberal already - for example Turkey, which already offers almost unlimited access to/from most EU member nations.

I'm sure we will hear more about this in the coming months.

Just hope the mandate does not end up like Brazil, which has had its talks drag on since 2011, as individual states instead themselves negotiate further agreements on the side.

enilria · Thu May 26, 2016 1:41 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The EC mandates concern opening open-skies talks with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), Turkey, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar.

I'm shocked. The European airlines will pillory this.

LAX772LR · Thu May 26, 2016 1:57 am

That sound you just hear, is Lufty sh!tting on itself over this.

waly777 · Thu May 26, 2016 2:10 am

I cannot wait to hear what AF & LH have to say about this

LAX772LR · Thu May 26, 2016 2:14 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 3):
I cannot wait to hear what AF & LH have to say about this

They'll probably earn the title of "Delta East" even more so than VS.

Aither · Thu May 26, 2016 2:22 am

I think EU will collapse before they can make the deal. It will start with the Brexit and others will follow. It's just too much liberal and anti democratic.

TheFlyingDisk · Thu May 26, 2016 2:25 am

If EU gains an open skies agreement with ASEAN, I would think D7 & its imitators will benefit the most. Not sure how it will help SQ/TG/MH/VN though.

[email protected] · Thu May 26, 2016 2:27 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Surprise move, but I suppose the EC's overall goal of establishing increased number of block wide agreements takes precedence.

EU-ASEAN isn't surprising as they've discussed it for sometime.

The others are pretty obvious.

pipeafcr · Thu May 26, 2016 5:31 am

I just love it when the west applies universal open market standards even when it could possibly leave their own businesses at a disadvantage.... I guess equality for all!

dubaiamman243 · Thu May 26, 2016 6:01 am

Well... the UAE has an open skies policy. It's the EU that have to change.

B747forever · Thu May 26, 2016 6:10 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 9):

Well... the UAE has an open skies policy. It's the EU that have to change.

Of course the UAE is all for open skies. The business model of EY and EK depends on getting as much access as possible to key markets. Just look at the sheer number of flights between the UK and UAE, especially LON-DXB.

Qatara340 · Thu May 26, 2016 6:15 am

I know a few ppl who will get hernias just thinking about this.

It's about time the EU get liberal about open skies and start these talks. Open skies will benefit everybody, and most importantly the consumer.

LAX772LR · Thu May 26, 2016 6:21 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 10):
Of course the UAE is all for open skies.

Indeed, why would it? It's a comparatively small local market, with very limited domestic capability or onward use to anyone not based there.

JimJupiter · Thu May 26, 2016 6:57 am

Quoting Qatara340 (Reply 11):
Open skies will benefit everybody, and most importantly the consumer.

Let's just hope it will benefit employment rights and working conditions as well. In that case, I'm all in.

Qatara340 · Thu May 26, 2016 7:35 am

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 13):
Let's just hope it will benefit employment rights and working conditions as well. In that case, I'm all in.

oh it will defently increase employment opportunities across Europe and many people would be employed thru an open skies agreement, thereby improving working conditions to millions of Europeans who will have new jobs.

LTenEleven · Thu May 26, 2016 8:16 am

Openskies with Turkey has been long delayed but now is a good time to try to finalise it before the opening of the new IST and given the ongoing crisis in the country.

I can't see France or Germany being too excited about any further opening up with the UAE.

jfk777 · Thu May 26, 2016 8:22 am

The UK is probably for this as the ME3 already fly to lots of the UK. The Germans and French are going to hate this as they do not want any more ME3 flying in their countries, this is their Asian business going to hell.

mjoelnir · Thu May 26, 2016 8:55 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Surprise move, but I suppose the EC's overall goal of establishing increased number of block wide agreements takes precedence.

Very much an expected move. The EU is working at moving every bilateral with single EU countries to EU wide open sky agreements.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The mandates are part of the EC’s aviation strategy that was unveiled in December which seeks to establish block wide agreements covering the air-transport sector, replacing remaining individual member agreements.

That has been the strategy for years.

I think that many here overestimate the influence airlines have on this policies. Contrary to the USA it is not as easy to buy a few congressman to stop laws or agreements. Consumer interest and protection is a far stronger driving force in the EU than the USA.

JRadier · Thu May 26, 2016 9:53 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In practice the ASA's with these 4 national groups in many cases is very liberal already - for example Turkey, which already offers almost unlimited access to/from most EU member nations.

Between Turkey and the respective countries yes, but certainly not EU wide.

B747forever · Thu May 26, 2016 11:33 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):

The UK is probably for this as the ME3 already fly to lots of the UK. The Germans and French are going to hate this as they do not want any more ME3 flying in their countries, this is their Asian business going to hell.

That is what I like with BA. They thrive even though there is a lot of LCC competition in London and with so many flights from the ME3 + TK, yet LH and AF seem to struggle.

lightsaber · Thu May 26, 2016 2:28 pm

Wow...But what are the conditions? There were enough wiggle words this might not be what we expect.

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 9):
Well... the UAE has an open skies policy. It's the EU that have to change.

It will be the details the UAE cares about. Otherwise they would sign tomorrow for more access to France and Germany. Ghad, this is a potential ME4 game changer.

Lightsaber

KaiTak747 · Thu May 26, 2016 2:43 pm

Fantastic news. In the case of Germany, the only winner from their protectionist policies is LH, while consumers have their options limited and have to put up with higher fares.

I've said this before and will say it again, the ME3 have done amazing things for Europe, by providing affordable and convenient air travel to hundreds of millions of Europeans.

The EU legacies can cope, just as BA has, by shifting their focus to the Americas.

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 8):

I just love it when the west applies universal open market standards even when it could possibly leave their own businesses at a disadvantage.... I guess equality for all!

Absolutely. Protectionism distorts markets to put businesses at an unfair advantage at the expense of consumers.

PanHAM · Thu May 26, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting Qatara340 (Reply 11):
It's about time the EU get liberal about open skies and start these talks. Open skies will benefit everybody, and most importantly the consumer.

I just had a good laugh. "Liberal Qatar" is the Oxymoron of the day.

Makes me wonder how liberal openskies Agreements can be agreed with countries that have Little to nothing to offer in return.

mercure1 · Thu May 26, 2016 2:47 pm

Ironic how overall EU aviation policy is to foster increased open-skies, while several large member states to various degrees oppose such stance.

PanHAM · Thu May 26, 2016 2:52 pm

If the EU demands a Level playing field in Terms of Labor relation, civil rights, Taxation, subsidies (none allowed), just to mention a few, one could talk about it. That would be a Long road for some countries in the ME.

mjoelnir · Thu May 26, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
It will be the details the UAE cares about. Otherwise they would sign tomorrow for more access to France and Germany. Ghad, this is a potential ME4 game changer.

I think that is a bit overdrawn. In Germany they can fly to four airports without any frequency or seat limitation. Beside DUS, FRA, HAM and MUC, the airport they would like to add would be in Berlin and perhaps STR. Germany is populous, but quite compact. In France Emirates flies to CDG, NCE and LYS. One should not forget that quite a few Germans will fly out of AMS, BRU and ZRH and some Frenchman will use GVA.

If one looks at the route map of Emirates, Europe and especially the EU are quite well covered. I can hardly call it a game changer.

FriscoHeavy · Thu May 26, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 13):
Let's just hope it will benefit employment rights and working conditions as well. In that case, I'm all in.

You mean not being able to be fired for screwing up or not working hard/efficiently?

KaiTak747 · Thu May 26, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Makes me wonder how liberal openskies Agreements can be agreed with countries that have Little to nothing to offer in return.

How about cheaper and far more air connections to hundreds of millions of Europeans? Isn't that more than "little to nothing to offer"?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
If the EU demands a Level playing field in Terms of Labor relation, civil rights, Taxation, subsidies (none allowed), just to mention a few, one could talk about it. That would be a Long road for some countries in the ME.

But why does that matter? These are not airlines based in the EU. On top of that, if you go by that logic, you might as well get rid of every item you own in your home, because I would bet they were made in countries with labour standards that would not be acceptable in the EU. Also, actual level playing fields are an impossibility, each country will have different labour costs and taxes, that's how the world works.

mercure1 · Thu May 26, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):

If the EU demands a Level playing field in Terms of Labor relation, civil rights, Taxation, subsidies (none allowed), just to mention a few, one could talk about it. That would be a Long road for some countries in the ME.

Non sense.

its hardly any other nations problem that Europe is the land of high taxation, high labor cost, and yes plenty of subsidies in most industries. Just recently the Bavarian state auditor, found Lufthansa received undue advantages worth €1 billion at Munich Airport, without a due-consideration process.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 27):
How about cheaper and far more air connections to hundreds of millions of Europeans? Isn't that more than "little to nothing to offer"?

PanHAM · Thu May 26, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 27):
How about cheaper and far more air connections to hundreds of millions of Europeans? Isn't that more than "little to nothing to offer"?

see reply 25. I might add that not only EK has virtually unlimited rights to Germany but the other 2 as well. Turkey is member of the common avation area. Open skies in Europe, particularly in Germany IS Happening today.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 27):
But why does that matter? These are not airlines based in the EU. On top of that, if you go by that logic, you might as well get

Most f the items in my house are european made. A level playing field imatters very much. Qatar wants to host the Football WC in 2022. This will likely be a fiasco for some reasons. But the matches will be played accordin to the rules. A Level playing field is the only way on a world wide scale. But with the ME3+TK such a Level playing field is not given and that matters. This is an issue whoich will be discussed also at the upcoming ILA

UALWN · Thu May 26, 2016 3:53 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
f the EU demands a Level playing field in Terms of Labor relation, civil rights, Taxation, subsidies (none allowed), just to mention a few, one could talk about it.

Well, there are large differences on most of these areas between the EU and the US, and yet an Open Skies agreement was signed a few years ago. Why should this be different?

KaiTak747 · Thu May 26, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
A Level playing field is the only way on a world wide scale. But with the ME3+TK such a Level playing field is not given and that matters. This is an issue whoich will be discussed also at the upcoming ILA

No. That's really not how it works.

It's all about comparative advantage. The ME3 can haul hundreds of millions of people from through their hubs from hundreds of points around the globe. They can do this because their governments support them (low taxes, investment in infrastructure. And for EK, the biggest fish, this does not entail subsidies), geographic location and vision, strategy and management.

In the same way that your country is excellent at producing cars, the UAE and Qatar are excellent and moving people across the globe. My vote is to let them do what they're good at. I do not think giving the ME3 unrestricted access to Germany will seriously hurt LH. Look at BA, they have 10 A380s a day to LHR and they are coping just fine.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
Qatar wants to host the Football WC in 2022. This will likely be a fiasco for some reasons. But the matches will be played accordin to the rules.

Not really sure what your point is here.

lightsaber · Thu May 26, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 25):
I think that is a bit overdrawn. In Germany they can fly to four airports without any frequency or seat limitation. Beside DUS, FRA, HAM and MUC, the airport they would like to add would be in Berlin and perhaps STR. Germany is populous, but quite compact. In France Emirates flies to CDG, NCE and LYS. One should not forget that quite a few Germans will fly out of AMS, BRU and ZRH and some Frenchman will use GVA.

Destinations matter less than rule restrictions:
1. ME3 cannot undercut German airline pricing. This means, effectively LH is setting pricing and thus demand. Since customers prefer a non-stop, this certainly slowed ME3 growth.
2. Current German bilaterals require 50% O&D traffic. This means all those German connecting traffic passengers cannot be accommodated as the ME3 are constrained by the need to grow O&D traffic. This is the opposite pattern of the ME3.

EK in particular does very well launching secondary cities on connecting traffic. If the rules are relaxed, it is more than a few cities that will be added. In particular after the 787 or A350 enter service in a 2- class.

FlyDubai with the MAX will open up East Germany and some of West Germany.

TK will be everywhere.

QR and EY will expand too, but TK and EK/FZ will be the drivers.

Lightsaber

enilria · Thu May 26, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
2. Current German bilaterals require 50% O&D traffic. This means all those German connecting traffic passengers cannot be accommodated as the ME3 are constrained by the need to grow O&D traffic. This is the opposite pattern of the ME3.

Which is a ridiculously arbitrary restriction.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The EC mandates concern opening open-skies talks with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), Turkey, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar.

Is it possible this is a Trojan Horse that would allow the EU to punish UAE/Qatar/Turkey in a way the current bilaterals do not allow? RE: subsidy language?

LAX772LR · Thu May 26, 2016 5:37 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 33):
Which is a ridiculously arbitrary restriction.

What's so arbitrary about it?
I'd say it's quite reasonable.

eal · Thu May 26, 2016 5:41 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 19):

BA is also 8% owned by QR

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 26):

I think he means not having your passports seized by your employer, or being held in a proverbial lockdown or not getting fired for wanting to be married.

par13del · Thu May 26, 2016 5:47 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Makes me wonder how liberal openskies Agreements can be agreed with countries that have Little to nothing to offer in return.

Well most of the third and developing world have nothing to offer the developed world other than consumers who purchase and consume goods produced in the developed world using loans provided by the developed world resulting in debt which allows more control over what they purchase etc etc etc.....

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 23):
If the EU demands a Level playing field in Terms of Labor relation, civil rights, Taxation, subsidies (none allowed), just to mention a few, one could talk about it.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 27):
Also, actual level playing fields are an impossibility, each country will have different labour costs and taxes, that's how the world works.

Well when there were colonies created by the gun all were level, so if one can use the IMF, World Bank, NAFTA, FTRA, FATCA, etc etc etc one can ensure that a level playing field is achieved.

Open Sky agreements more and more are topics that should be moved to non-av, go figure

B747forever · Thu May 26, 2016 6:30 pm

Quoting eal (Reply 35):
BA is also 8% owned by QR

So what? BA has always been able to thrive amid so much LCC/UAE competition at its home market.

LTenEleven · Thu May 26, 2016 6:43 pm

I suppose some people are just happy to keep paying LH, AF, etc. higher air fares.

Speaking of labour rights, it's funny I see the ME3 full of Europeans working at all levels from cabin crew, flight operations to senior management. Somer of these with previous experince working for European flag carriers.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
see reply 25. I might add that not only EK has virtually unlimited rights to Germany but the other 2 as well. Turkey is member of the common avation area. Open skies in Europe, particularly in Germany IS Happening today.

No, Tukey is not part of the ECAA:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/...national_aviation/doc/airareas.jpg

EU-Turkey remains quite restrictive, depending on the existing bilateral agreements. A British operator could presently not fly AMS-IST for example.

ElPistolero · Thu May 26, 2016 8:16 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 34):

What's so arbitrary about it?
I'd say it's quite reasonable.

If countries like India start applying the same rule to LH...I don't think anyone at LH (or anyone in their right mind) would call it reasonable.

Cuts both ways.

Qatara340 · Thu May 26, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):

My country has LITTLE TO offer??? You must be on crack or something. Your country can't get enough investments from my country. They are building the metro network, railroad networks, infrastructure projects! There are several German-supported Qatari companies such as Qatar Solar Technologies (QSTec ) and Qatar Clariant successfully operating in Qatar. There are also Qatari investments in Germany that cover many areas of economic activities, including in companies such as Volkswagen , Hochtief and Siemens, along with many of the operational processes in addition to the portfolio in the field of real estate.

It just keeps on growing and growing year by year! Your county really can't stop with expanding ties! Hahaha

Hilarious, your posts continue to amuse me day by day; especially when you start using Middle Ages terminology =)

enzedder · Thu May 26, 2016 11:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
Most f the items in my house are european made.

Really European made or just a European brand? As that is not the same thing.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
If the EU demands a Level playing field in Terms of Labor relation, civil rights, Taxation, subsidies (none allowed), just to mention a few, one could talk about it. That would be a Long road for some countries in the ME.

As if terms of Labour relation, civil rights and taxation were on equal levels within the EU.

I am so tired of people crying out about injustice and their double moral standard of these issues when it suits their interests or the interest of a certain industry.

So your mobile and PC was pruduced in Europe, with only European constituent parts? No Nordseekrabben that get shipped to the far east to get peeled and shipped back to you guys as it is much cheaper that way? No fruits from countries where labour is cheaper than in Germany?

As you are crying out for a fair playing field you could hardly consume anything in Germany. I lived in Germany for many years and experienced you hardly would survive on products that have been produced on what you call 'on a fair playing field'.

But I guess it is okay as it is not airline related.

Cheers enzedder

Turkish350XWB · Fri May 27, 2016 12:10 am

Quoting Qatara340 (Reply 40):
My country has LITTLE TO offer???

I have never understood nationalism in non-countries...

LAX772LR · Fri May 27, 2016 12:50 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 39):
If countries like India start applying the same rule to LH

Well, for starters, what's the current O&D ratio on FRA/MUC - BOM/DEL/etc?

lightsaber · Fri May 27, 2016 1:00 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 33):
Which is a ridiculously arbitrary restriction.

Which is open skies is a big deal. Getting rid of the fare and O&D rule opens up growth.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 34):
What's so arbitrary about it?
I'd say it's quite reasonable.

If 50% O&D was required, cancel LHR-BLR. Does every LH flight crossing a border meet that requirement? Arbitrary.

Lightsaber

ElPistolero · Fri May 27, 2016 1:45 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 43):
Well, for starters, what's the current O&D ratio on FRA/MUC - BOM/DEL/etc?

Last stats published by the Indian Government around 2010 for O&D

LH: 13%
KL: 22%
QR: 22%
BA: 39%
EK: 41%
SQ: 51%

I doubt that's changed significantly over the past 6 years.

Aither · Fri May 27, 2016 1:59 am

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 38):
I suppose some people are just happy to keep paying LH, AF, etc. higher air fares.

I think people should be happy to still have a national airline and not be totally economically dependent of another country when it comes to connectivity with the rest of the world.
Yes LH, AF tend to have slightly higher fares, but people there also get their money back through different ways (cheaper schools, hospitals etc.).
The strategy of BA to avoid the competition will only work some time - until someone does the EK of the transatlantic. It will come it not already there. Also the London market is unique in Europe. I think BA should be renamed "London Airways"...

[Edited 2016-05-26 19:04:36]

JimJupiter · Fri May 27, 2016 9:02 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 26):
You mean not being able to be fired for screwing up or not working hard/efficiently?

No, i don't.

mjoelnir · Fri May 27, 2016 10:41 am

Looked at trade as a whole Qatar and UAE are big buyers, with the EU having a huge trade surplus with this countries. That helps to protect jobs in the EU. In trade talks and that includes aviation agreements, the look is on the whole and not only on a separate small part of the trade. The EU has a big plus keeping good relations and good trade and it is in the consumer interest to have affordable flights.

I think that airlines like LH will need to accept, that their interest do not rule in this negotiations.

KaiTak747 · Fri May 27, 2016 2:26 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 46):
I think people should be happy to still have a national airline and not be totally economically dependent of another country when it comes to connectivity with the rest of the world.

Of course, but the ME3 are not an existential threat. FR, EZ and their crap labour relations are damaging AF and LH far more than the ME3 ever could.

Quoting Aither (Reply 46):
The strategy of BA to avoid the competition will only work some time - until someone does the EK of the transatlantic. It will come it not already there. Also the London market is unique in Europe. I think BA should be renamed "London Airways"...

But BA already face competition from the likes of VS, UA, DL and increasingly DY. BA welcomes competition from the ME3, they've said it before and they will say it again.

As a Brit, I can assure you that the ME3 and KL are far more important at providing air transport for people living outside of London than BA ever have been. If you're outside of the LHR/LGW catchment area, BA is either very inconvenient or very expensive. BA really is London airways.

At the end of the day, what is best for the world is more air capacity and better connectivity at affordable prices. If every country did their upmost to protect their own national airlines, you can go back to the 70s where air travel was only available to the rich.

Quoting enzedder (Reply 41):

You sir are spot on.

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