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JimJupiter
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Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 7:58 am

I feel almost sorry to post this (and I couldn't find a current BER-thread, so mods please move it if necessary).

According to the usually well informed Tagesspiegel (a Berlin newspaper), ongoing approval procedures will thwart BER's already tight schedule to open the airport in 2017. Even if airport boss Mühlenfeld insists that there is still a "chance" to make it in 2017.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/be...ffnung-2017-geplatzt/13644608.html

Part XYZ in the ongoing BER saga. Make your bets now! When is it finally going to open?

[ ] 2017
[ ] 2018
[ ] In year 9 of the Trump presidency.
[ ] Never. Will be replaced by FNB aka Michael O'Leary Intercontinental.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
LTenEleven
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 8:11 am

My money is on 2020.

The longer this sage continues, the more under-capacity BER will be when it opens and the higher the chance we see public and political opinion become more favourable to keeping something open at TXL.

Besides, the SXF experience has improved slightly since the additional security screening channels opened.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 8:44 am

It won't be 2017.

Berlin’s new airport 'may never open’: planner

Quote:
The man formerly responsible for planning Berlin’s much-delayed international airport has claimed the air hub will never open, after a series of failures have left city authorities red faced.

Talking to the Berliner Morgenpost, Dieter Faulenbach da Costa, who was responsible for planning the project up until 1999, said he doubted whether the airport would ever be opened.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 9:26 am

Gee, no, how could that happen? What a surprise!!  

I prefer to predict an opening in year 9 of The Donald's presidency. As this cannot happen due to the US rules, BER cannot happen either.

But Mr. Faulenbach Da Costa, who was kicked out not only by Berlin Airports but by Fraport as well is a bad witness, he is prejudiced for said reasons.

Besides that, everything has been said but not by everybody, so what can we say? The Green Party has mentioned in a press release that Wowereit is at fault. We know that as well, and, as a side note, the Berlin Senate will not Keep TXL open.

They ay that this will cost € 180 Million p.a. which contains the first mistake already as they indicate one time chargs for the following years and they totally forgot to calculate the gains and benefits of keeping TXL open. Typical not only for Berlin.

So, the fun will go on, they should re-name the place "Wowereits Neverland Ranch".
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 9:29 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
"Wowereits Neverland Ranch"

  

I agree, the project is a farce.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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hilram
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 9:35 am

Why don't they just concede to the fact that the underground smoke ventilation will never work (smoke has a tendency to rise ...) and just install big ugly vents on the roof and deal with it?
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Revelation
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 10:04 am

Quoting JimJupiter (Thread starter):
When is it finally going to open?

Now that is very western, linear thinking. We all know that these days Germany is a multi-cultural paradise, so it should take a more Eastern approach and say "Inshallah", it will happen when God wills it. See, no need for stress, let go of such unsettling concerns.

So:

[ ] 2017
[ ] 2018
[ ] In year 9 of the Trump presidency.
[ ] Never. Will be replaced by FNB aka Michael O'Leary Intercontinental
[x] Inshallah.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 12:18 pm

I'm starting to think Jesus will come back before BER opens.
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jmchevallier
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 4):
I agree, the project is a farce.

No, just business as usual for new airports in Germany. Munich took about 30 years before entry into service in 1992, and I started working on the new Berlin airport in 1991, soon after reunification, so 25 years ago only ...
 
steman
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 5):
Why don't they just concede to the fact that the underground smoke ventilation will never work (smoke has a tendency to rise ...) and just install big ugly vents on the roof and deal with it?

I thought the big ugly vents were already on the roof....but they´re too heavy for that roof and therefore need to be replaced/modified. This is just one of the many screw up in that project.

Personally I´m happy with TXL as it is, being closer to the City West where I live than SXF/BER but I would like Berlin to have more direct long haul services, which are not possible today also due to lack of space at TXL.
 
bgm
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 12:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Now that is very western, linear thinking. We all know that these days Germany is a multi-cultural paradise, so it should take a more Eastern approach and say "Inshallah", it will happen when God wills it. See, no need for stress, let go of such unsettling concerns.

It's "insha'allah". If you're going to insult the Muslim world, at least spell it correctly.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 1:04 pm

Quoting jmchevallier (Reply 8):

No, just business as usual for new airports in Germany. Munich took about 30 years before entry into service in 1992, and I started working on the new Berlin airport in 1991, soon after reunification, so 25 years ago only ...

Planing for Munich took 30 years but the building phase was pretty much on time.

Berlin has a unique chance imho and become the first green capital in the world. The only capital city with no commercial airport, accessible only by train or road. I think this would be something well that could be well used in promotion.

"Berlin, quite skies"
"Berlin, chemtrail free"
"Berlin, the silent city with a booming nightlife.."
"Berlin, the communist revival..."
"Berlin, the only city in the world with 4 airport parks..."
 
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Revelation
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 1:24 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 7):
I'm starting to think Jesus will come back before BER opens.

When thinking of BER, the expression that comes to mind is "Jesus wept". Will Lazarus come out from the tomb?

Quoting bgm (Reply 10):
If you're going to insult the Muslim world, at least spell it correctly.

There's no insult. If you're seeing one, it's something you yourself are manifesting. If this is the case I'm not surprised because there seems to be no charity in your comments.

For reference sake, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah tells us:

Quote:

Inshallah (Arabic: إن شاء الله‎‎, ʾin shāʾallāhu), also in sha Allah or insha'Allah, is Arabic for "God willing" or "if God wills",[1] and simply abbreviated as ISA.

So I am using a widely accepted spelling.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 11):
"Berlin, the communist revival..."

I think the communists would have had an airport a long time ago. It would have been an ugly one, just like most of their projects, but there would have been an airport by now. They wouldn't be so precious as to try to make smoke sink rather than rise. There would be a bloody big chimney on the roof and they would have been damn proud of it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
r2rho
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 2:06 pm

Nobody except Berlin's politicians believed that date anyway, so this just confirms what was already in people's minds.

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
The longer this sage continues, the more under-capacity BER will be when it opens and the higher the chance we see public and political opinion become more favourable to keeping something open at TXL.

Public opinion is already fairly in favor, and it can only get better with time, as you say. There is currently a referendum in preparation, demanding to keep TXL open after BER opens, which the Berlin Senate is trying to sabotage by publishing made-up numbers on TXL costs and delaying the legal process:

http://www.tegel-bleibt-offen.de/
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 4:44 pm

Wouldn't it be faster and cheaper to bulldoze the entire Northeastern Germany and rebuild it from scratch?

Soren   
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B747forever
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm

Actually I am happy that BER has not opened as planned. Gives me more time to add SXF to my log.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
cuban8
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 5:53 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Thread starter):
Part XYZ in the ongoing BER saga. Make your bets now! When is it finally going to open?

Is betting on Air Berlin being gone by the time BER airport opens an option?      
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cedarjet
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 5:59 pm

I hope it never opens. TXL is my favourite airport in the world, and SXF is a decent low cost airport with a super interesting (read: GDR) history. And I have a feeling I'm going to get my wish.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
bgm
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 6:30 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
It would have been an ugly one, just like most of their projects

So you're saying the commies built most airports in the US then?   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
There's no insult. If you're seeing one, it's something you yourself are manifesting. If this is the case I'm not surprised because there seems to be no charity in your comments.

Yes there is, by using the word "paradise" you're being snarky, not to mention your inference that all Muslims don't have any personal responsibility, leaving all and everything to God's will.
 
bojangles
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 8:03 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
There's no insult. If you're seeing one, it's something you yourself are manifesting. If this is the case I'm not surprised because there seems to be no charity in your comments.

At least have the courage to stand but your snide comment. Anyone with half a brain knows exactly what you were trying to convey by writing that.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 8:10 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 17):

I hope it never opens. TXL is my favourite airport in the world,

Are you drunk? Or do you mean from a nostalgia point of view? TXL is similar to what SVO used to be like, prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, and it wasn't even built by communists. Out of the 30 or so airports I've been to in Europe, TXL was the worst.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
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LTU932
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 8:42 pm

By the time that airport opens, I will have hit retirement age (which is in December 2052).         

[Edited 2016-05-26 13:44:08]
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B747forever
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 8:44 pm

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 20):
Are you drunk? Or do you mean from a nostalgia point of view? TXL is similar to what SVO used to be like, prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, and it wasn't even built by communists. Out of the 30 or so airports I've been to in Europe, TXL was the worst.

TXL is horrible for connections, but I doubt you can find any other public airport where the distance from terminal to gate is as short as it is at TXL.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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Revelation
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 18):
Yes there is, by using the word "paradise" you're being snarky

Yes, it was snarky, but there's a line between snarky and insulting. I've been to Germany and referring to it as a multi-cultural paradise is at best snarky, the Germans I've hung out wouldn't think of that as an insult, not sure why you would.

Quoting bgm (Reply 18):
not to mention your inference that all Muslims don't have any personal responsibility, leaving all and everything to God's will.

The context is clear that we're talking about the unfathomable clusterbump that is BER, not "all and everything" -- it is you that are making "inferences" beyond the scope of the topic.

Quoting bojangles (Reply 19):
At least have the courage to stand but your snide comment.

I do stand by my snide comment.

Quoting bojangles (Reply 19):
Anyone with half a brain knows exactly what you were trying to convey by writing that.

I don't know what it is like to have half a brain, why don't you share with us what it is like? 

See, when I want to insult I will insult, I don't bother with "inferences"!
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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TWA902fly
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 22):
TXL is horrible for connections, but I doubt you can find any other public airport where the distance from terminal to gate is as short as it is at TXL.

While this may be true, there are also not enough gates (requiring busing passengers to aircraft, which a.net members are in the minority for enjoying boarding via stairs) and lack of seating in the actual gate areas.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
jmchevallier
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 9:57 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 11):
Planing for Munich took 30 years but the building phase was pretty much on time.

Yes, you are totally right.
 
bojangles
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 10:05 pm

I see your level of debate is lowering even further, so I'll leave you to it.
 
A350
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 22):
TXL is horrible for connections, but I doubt you can find any other public airport where the distance from terminal to gate is as short as it is at TXL.

Of course, connections are the last thing TXL was built for when Western Berlin was an island in the GDR

A350
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 10:26 pm

[ ] 2017
[ ] 2018
[ ] In year 9 of the Trump presidency.
[ ] Never. Will be replaced by FNB aka Michael O'Leary Intercontinental
[ ] Inshallah.
[x] When the river jumps over the mountain and the salmon sing in the street


David
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B747forever
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Quoting A350 (Reply 27):
Of course, connections are the last thing TXL was built for when Western Berlin was an island in the GDR

Tell that to AB  
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cedarjet
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 11:10 pm

In response to my post about how wonderful TXL is

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 20):
Are you drunk? Or do you mean from a nostalgia point of view? TXL is similar to what SVO used to be like, prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, and it wasn't even built by communists. Out of the 30 or so airports I've been to in Europe, TXL was the worst.

Because it's not a gigantic shopping mall? If you get dropped at the right door, it's about ten metres from curbside to your aeroplane seat. That is unrivalled at any other airport in the world.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 22):
I doubt you can find any other public airport where the distance from terminal to gate is as short as it is at TXL.

Someone gets it!
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lightsaber
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
My money is on 2020.

Be an optimist! The unions and special interests will keep the project going until 2310 or so...

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 16):

Is betting on Air Berlin being gone by the time BER airport opens an option?      

Err... I'll take the under. The question is by how many years AB fails before BER opens .

Lightsaber
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Airvan00
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Thu May 26, 2016 11:40 pm

I was ticketed to fly out of BER in November 2012, in the middle of that year the flight was changed back to depart from TXL. I had an interesting chat with the two elderly ladies who were in charge of the BA J lounge @ TXL. "We are going to retire when the operation moves over to BER".
I often wonder what happened to those two, or are they still tending to the boiled eggs that are famous in that lounge.
 
superjeff
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 12:04 am

I've only flown in and out of TXL once - last December, in on British Airways and out on Iberia Express. The airport is somewhat of a dump, but getting off the airplane and walking right to baggage claim (immigration/customs at the gate since I flew in from LHR and the UK is not in Schengen) was extremely easy; then flying out in Terminal 2 on Iberia Express almost equally so, because of the short distance from curb to gate (although it is an old airport, in dilapidated state - kind of like DEN was just before Stapleton Closed or the old Pittsburgh airport in the U.S.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 12:07 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 28):
[x] When the river jumps over the mountain and the salmon sing in the street

So glad someone gets it... Now it's time for those who say the "inference" is that you must hate fish....
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 12:42 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 11):
Planing for Munich took 30 years but the building phase was pretty much on time.

MUC construction took 11½ years and two weeks, 3 november 1980 to 17 May 1992.

Planning didn't last 30 years. The final decision by the Bavarian government was taken 5 August 1969.

The bulk of the following 11 years was spent on convincing 500 citizens that their villages had to be bulldozed, and they should leave their Heimat and settle down elsewhere on planet earth.

The political process leading up to the 1969 decision was, however, long and troubled. But when Willy Brandt took office in Bonn in 1969, then Franz Josef Strauss lost his job as minister of finance, left Bonn, moved back home to Munich, and told them how he wanted it there, game over.
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jsnww81
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 1:50 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 35):
The political process leading up to the 1969 decision was, however, long and troubled. But when Willy Brandt took office in Bonn in 1969, then Franz Josef Strauss lost his job as minister of finance, left Bonn, moved back home to Munich, and told them how he wanted it there, game over.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Strauss resorted to personally knocking on doors in the affected villages and sitting down with the residents to persuade them.

I have a book titled "Airports of the World" that was published in 1984. It features a view of the new MUC under construction, which at that point was four years along. The outlines of the runways are visible, but there's remarkably little progress on the terminal or any support facilities. There's no evidence of the impacted villages - by then maybe they'd been cleared. Interesting that work on MUC took so long - the new DEN began in 1988 and was substantially complete (apart from the infamous baggage system) by 1993.

Weren't two villages cleared 8-10 years ago to make way for the new BER as well?
 
bioyuki
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 3:02 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 30):
Because it's not a gigantic shopping mall? If you get dropped at the right door, it's about ten metres from curbside to your aeroplane seat. That is unrivalled at any other airport in the world.

This is very timely as after 21 hours in transit, I just got home from my trip originating at TXL.

Yes, if you get dropped at the right door, it's about ten meters from the door to the check-in desk, but after that, you get shepherded into a tiny, poorly lit, overcrowded holding pen with zero amenities, and then when it's time to board, you go down a very narrow set of stairs (no escalator or elevator!) to get bussed to a hard stand because it's so difficult to fit a widebody at many of the gates there.

It was my first trip to Berlin and it was amazing what poor shape Tegel is in, compared with the rest of the city which has generally amazing infrastructure. As an American, I usually can't say much about our infrastructure or public works being better than what's available in Germany, but after this week I can comfortably say most American airports are better than TXL 
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liftsifter
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 4:21 am

I don't quite get it, is this an issue with the airport being incomplete, or with the government not moving their hides to get things going?
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seahawk
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 5:15 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 35):

MUC construction took 11½ years and two weeks, 3 november 1980 to 17 May 1992.

Planing for a new airport in Munich started in 1954, when the decision was reached that the growth potential of Riem was too limited due to the fact that it was too close to the city. After a plane crash in 1960 a planing commission to find a suitable place for a new airport started working in 1963. By 1969 the decision for the current place was reached.

From 1969 to 1979 the process of obtaining the necessary permits was handled. After this over 5000 lawsuits were filed. After the building phase started in 1980 and not all lawsuits had been decided, further lawsuits were filed and the higher court decided to stop the building phase until those lawsuits were settled. During out of court discussion between the airport and the complainers a compromise was found which needed (less runways less traffic) a new building permit. The last lawsuits were settled in 1986 and the building restarted to be finished in 1991 and the airport opening in 1992.

So all in all the pure construction phase was about 5-6 years. There were no major problems with the building phase, in fact the whole building phase and the move to the new airport was done so well that MUC was later hired to advice in Athens and Bangkok.

But in all seriousness I think Berlin should really go with no airport. "Berlin - the green capital" has nice sound and it would be better than an airport that is late and will always be too small - again.

[Edited 2016-05-26 22:19:49]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 6:39 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 36):
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Strauss resorted to personally knocking on doors in the affected villages and sitting down with the residents to persuade them.

I think I mentioned it here before a couple of years ago. trauss was very convincing. The Story goes that he went in with a bottle of the local "Obstler" Schnaps and that bittle was usually finished and the farmer was convinced.

It is a pity that we do not have such characters in politics anymore. Just reading this thread it confirms that we don't get anything done in Germany any longer. It is OK that we are ruled by the law and I do not want to have that any other way. But the phrasing of many laws are not compatible with the real world anymore. The common sense is lost completely.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 7:00 am

In that case though the law is not the problem, the problem is that they went with a smoke removal design that ignores physics and was "designed" by a firm that had no competence in the field and should never have been given the task. It also comes from the fact that the airport itself was way over its head when it came to managing the project and acting as the central coordinator for the contracted firms. Which means the work was never properly controlled, documented and coordinated.

And to be honest I am happy that the authorities pulled the plug on the smoke removal system, in Berlin I would have feared worse, as their will have been huge political pressure on them to turn a blind eye. Somebody really had balls. Imho Berlin is a good example that the "law" and the administration department still work as intended.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 7:16 am

The history is well known, Seahawk. My remark was general. Of course we can be glad that BER/SXF is located in the state of Brandenburg and not in Berlin itself. The political pressure, better, the ordre de Mufti, would have been executed. Instead the County administration of Dahme/Spreewald is firm in following the book without exceptions and they have the competent personell to do so.

We cannot compete with countries where a single person rules and we do not want to compete on these terms, where new Airports are build in now time in locations that used to be a fresh air and water supply for a mega city. However , it can be done better than what Berlin shows as a bad example and MUC as well as FRA are show cases for how it is done, on time and on budget.
.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
JimJupiter
Topic Author
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 9:01 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 31):
Be an optimist! The unions and special interests will keep the project going until 2310 or so...

How on earth are unions part of this story?  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
peterjohns
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:49 am

RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Fri May 27, 2016 10:01 am

We have a sign up at work saying

" with every passing day, it becomes more and more likely, that the Klingons are going to be the first to land at BER"
 
planeguy
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Sat May 28, 2016 4:55 am

Just my two cents but I'm still baffled how a country known for thorough planning and efficiency can go so horribly wrong with an airport project. Not to rub it in but here's how it ought to be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLJo9eE8JOg
 
marosbts
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:56 pm

RE: Surprise! No BER In 2017?

Sun May 29, 2016 5:37 pm

German media just tweeted - Chuck Norris named new BER CEO. The airport is opening tommorow morning 6AM!!

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