New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 178

qf789 · Thu May 26, 2016 4:31 pm

Continue discussion here

New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 177 (by atcsundevil May 8 2016 in Civil Aviation)

mariner · Thu May 26, 2016 5:20 pm

From previous thread:

"Quoting mariner (Reply 196):
KTA-AKL was in some trouble and maybe this is their way of trying to fix it?

Well if it existed, it might actually be popular with kiwi miners.. But maybe not in a Caravan "

Oooops - my bad. I guess I have a mental block about KAT.

mariner

Motorhussy · Thu May 26, 2016 9:54 pm

RNZ News are reporting that NZ are looking at cancelling their early flights from Northland to AKL. Mayors, councils and businesses in the Whangarei - WRE and Keri Keri - KKE catchment areas are obviously concerned...

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...cils-and-air-nz-in-talks-over-cuts

Also, the broadcaster looks at the introduction of a 'green levy' or 'tourist tax' on visitors and the potential implications for short term business visitors etc...

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...er-cost-of-'negative-side-effects'

aerohottie · Thu May 26, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 2):
RNZ News are reporting that NZ are looking at cancelling their early flights from Northland to AKL. Mayors, councils and businesses in the Whangarei - WRE and Keri Keri - KKE catchment areas are obviously concerned...

I appreciate the concern, but what it comes down to is if you want it, use it...
Perhaps an operator with smaller aircraft can take over the route if indeed NZ do pull out at that time of day (assuming there is demand)

PA515 · Thu May 26, 2016 10:59 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 2):
RNZ News are reporting that NZ are looking at cancelling their early flights from Northland to AKL. Mayors, councils and businesses in the Whangarei - WRE and Keri Keri - KKE catchment areas are obviously concerned...

Air NZ are not cutting flights. There will be four flights daily to both KKE and WRE with the 31 Oct schedule change, but no aircraft will stay overnight. The first KKE-AKL is presently 0650/0730 and that will be 2 hrs 20 min later and the first WRE-AKL is presently 0700/0735 and that will be 55 min later.

eff. 31 Oct 2016
AKL-KKE 0755/0845, 1200/1250, 1625/1715, 1855/1945
KKE-AKL 0910/0955, 1315/1400, 1740/1825, 2010/2055

eff. 31 Oct 2016
AKL-WRE 0650/0730, 1400/1440, 1620/1700, 1830/1910
WRE-AKL 0755/0830, 1505/1540, 1725/1800, 1935/2010

PA515

Motorhussy · Fri May 27, 2016 3:26 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 4):
Air NZ are not cutting flights.

I did not say they were...

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 2):
looking at cancelling their early flights from Northland to AKL

The concern for Northland is the impact this will have on their business community and the mayors say these first AKL bound flights of the day are the most full. Later flights may miss preferred connections for meetings in other parts of the country.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 3):
I appreciate the concern, but what it comes down to is if you want it, use it...

I'm sure they'd note your concern and not mistake it for condescension but as you'll see from above, these flights are being well patronised currently and they're being moved for scheduling reasons so as not to overnight craft in the provinces.

Motorhussy · Fri May 27, 2016 3:37 am

And JQ ignoring 'do-not-board' warnings and flying a Chilean deportee to AKL, after being excluded from travel to New Zealand for five years...

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...tstar-ignored-'do-not-board'-alert

Has landed the airline a NZ$12,000 fine and some bad international press...

Quote:
Jetstar fined $12,000 after allowing a passenger to fly back to the country he had been deported from (despite THREE warnings not to let him board)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/tr...-THREE-warnings-not-let-board.html

ZKSUJ · Fri May 27, 2016 8:40 am

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 3):
I appreciate the concern, but what it comes down to is if you want it, use it

I'd like to know how many are using the flights

aerorobnz · Fri May 27, 2016 8:58 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
hey're being moved for scheduling reasons so as not to overnight craft in the provinces.

which is totally rational and logical for an airline to do in order to justify a route and limit weather delays ,minimum crew rest delays and minimise the damage to their network when their aircraft are stuck in the sticks.

There is only one way out of this and that is for the Far North to pay for the added expenditure of overnighting a crew and maintaining a property there. If they don't want to do that than NZ has every right as a profit driven airline to dictate the terms of their flying there.

Note: I am not for subsidies, but airlines should make money first and foremost, An airline should benefit genuine shareholders first and foremost, yet again we run into the taxpayers = shareholders argument. NZ like JQ,QF,are not Non-profit organizations for charity when all said and done, Note VA may be a non profit organization though...

mariner · Fri May 27, 2016 10:24 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
I am not for subsidies, but airlines should make money first and foremost, An airline should benefit genuine shareholders first and foremost, yet again we run into the taxpayers = shareholders argument. NZ like JQ,QF,are not Non-profit organizations for charity when all said and done, .

I agree. I also agree with the previous statement "use it or lose it."

They seem particularly concerned about the loss of the early morning flight at Kerikeri, but I haven't heard a peep - so far - from our local Mayor or business people, perhaps because I don't think the schedule at Whangarei has changed dramatically. An 8.30 am arrival in Auckland still leaves the full day for work. It may be slightly trickier for some connections, but most are likely still possible.

I don't see this as a situation where some small airline will rush in to provide that earlier morning flight. Maybe at KKE, but I doubt it. Salt Air gave up its commercial flights and is concentrating on its profitable helicopter work, I don't see it as a market for Air Chathams and surely not Sounds.

Maybe Barrier Air could try and squeeze in a KKE-AKL flight, as well as or perhaps instead of KAT-AKL but I'm not holding my breath. The business community in Kaitaia yelled blue murder about the loss of service to AKL but aren't exactly flocking to Barrier.

mariner

PA515 · Fri May 27, 2016 3:36 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
There is only one way out of this and that is for the Far North to pay for the added expenditure of overnighting a crew and maintaining a property there. If they don't want to do that than NZ has every right as a profit driven airline to dictate the terms of their flying there.

Do the crew stay in a hotel/motel at KKE and WRE or do they use a serviced rental property?

Another expense could be aircraft security during the night. Don't know if that's an airport responsibility or Air NZ's. At other regional destinations that cost would be split between several aircraft.

PA515

sunrisevalley · Fri May 27, 2016 4:55 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
I agree. I also agree with the previous statement "use it or lose it."

It seems as if among many municipalities there is an expectation that they have an absolute entitlement to air services from the national carrier by virtue of them being taxpayers of the entity that holds 51% of its shares.
Perhaps it needs a minister of the crown to remind them , firmly, that there is no such entitlement and air service is strictly on a user pay basis.

mariner · Fri May 27, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 11):
It seems as if among many municipalities there is an expectation that they have an absolute entitlement to air services from the national carrier by virtue of them being taxpayers of the entity that holds 51% of its shares.

This is all about the timing of one flight - the early (6.50 am) KKE-AKL.

It's human nature, people vent about change that affects them negatively (actual or perceived) especially in these days of social media, and in this case, it's partly partly because there is no (perceived) viable alternative.

Add to that the immense chip on our shoulder that we in the north feel about the way we are treated by Wellington and "the south" generally. Winston Peters rode that wave with great success and some effect - LOL.

I don't live in Kerikeri, I don't know, but I suspect it's a small storm in a teacup and either people will adjust to the idea of it or - much less likely - Air NZ will make some small change to the schedule.

I note that Barrier Air is now very loudly touting its early morning service KAT-AKL at 6.20 am.

mariner

[Edited 2016-05-27 13:37:26]

zkncj · Sat May 28, 2016 3:51 am

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/8...oeing-474-lady-penelope-for-445000

Classic New Zealand media, we now have an Boeing 474!

axio · Sat May 28, 2016 8:27 am

Airways is reducing costs for airlines. My interpretation is that more flights means more economy of scale. Interesting to read that prior to consultation there was going to be a 3.6% rise, and after a 9% drop - that must have been quite the consultation...

http://www.airways.co.nz/media-centr...-to-air-traffic-management-prices/

nascarnut · Sat May 28, 2016 7:30 pm

For AKL spotters. LAN operated first 787 in new LATAM colours thru AKL this morning.
Should be back around 1600 this afternoon

zkojq · Sun May 29, 2016 5:51 am

Quote:
The facebook post refers to an A320 repaint with a shot of ZK-OJO at Flying Colours Aviation in TSV.
Probably a video of the OJO repaint.

Oops, second part of my post was deleted. I had meant to say that ZK-OJO has rejoined the airline and is painted in the standard fern livery.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
they're being moved for scheduling reasons so as not to overnight craft in the provinces.

It's a real shame for the regional crews that the airline is trying to centralise bases to the big three cities (general trend; I'm not referring to this specific action). Particularly given Auckland's current predicament. Once upon a time one of the benefits of flying for the Link carriers was being able to live in the provinces and thus minimising one's exposure to the higher cost of living in the big three cities.

Zkpilot · Sun May 29, 2016 7:35 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 16):

It's a real shame for the regional crews that the airline is trying to centralise bases to the big three cities (general trend; I'm not referring to this specific action). Particularly given Auckland's current predicament. Once upon a time one of the benefits of flying for the Link carriers was being able to live in the provinces and thus minimising one's exposure to the higher cost of living in the big three cities.

Agreed especially so far as Auckland is concerned. You would think with living costs being a lot higher, travel times being a lot higher and airport charges being a lot higher (and shortage of space at AKL) NZ would be wanting to get the regional fleet out of AKL.

aerorobnz · Sun May 29, 2016 8:11 am

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 15):
For AKL spotters. LAN operated first 787 in new LATAM colours thru AKL this morning.
Should be back around 1600 this afternoon

And looking more ghastly than even the photos suggest. Not a fan. Hoping that all 6 of my upcoming LA flights will still be in old livery when I fly.

PA515 · Mon May 30, 2016 3:10 am

Air NZ's 77W Premium Economy Spaceseat to be replaced.
Conflicting posts on flyertalk about when. One says after the Northern Summer, another says in the new year.

http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201...-custom-premium-economy-spaceseat/

PA515

Motorhussy · Mon May 30, 2016 4:08 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 19):
Air NZ's 77W Premium Economy Spaceseat to be replaced.

It'll be good to have product consistency across the longhaul fleet but a shame they couldn't use them as a TT and Pacific J-class in the A320-family.

zkncj · Mon May 30, 2016 4:25 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 20):
It'll be good to have product consistency across the longhaul fleet but a shame they couldn't use them as a TT and Pacific J-class in the A320-family.

There has been some talk that the A321NEO will have an couple rows of the new PE seats up fornt.

PA515 · Mon May 30, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 20):
It'll be good to have product consistency across the longhaul fleet but a shame they couldn't use them as a TT and Pacific J-class in the A320-family.

I believe the Zodiac Premium Economy seat is a possibility for Air NZ's A320NEO / A321NEO. First delivery is Aug 2017.

PA515

gytr31 · Mon May 30, 2016 6:28 am

So Air NZ has announced today that AKL-WAG and CHC-BHE are being cut from July 31st.

A blow for those who use these services but an economic reality I guess.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/805557...istchurchblenheim-regional-flights

77west · Mon May 30, 2016 6:46 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 21):
There has been some talk that the A321NEO will have an couple rows of the new PE seats up fornt.

Yeah they mentioned a "small premium cabin" between doors 1 and 2, so this may be what happens.

Would have been nice to get some true J class in there to compete with QF but unlikely...

aerorobnz · Mon May 30, 2016 7:36 am

Quoting gytr31 (Reply 23):
A blow for those who use these services but an economic reality I guess.

Yep. to be expected. I'm glad I flew CHC-BHE earlier this year.. I'm glad NZ isn't being bullied into maintaining the route by local politics.

Quoting PA515 (Reply 19):
77W Premium Economy Spaceseat to be replaced.

If true it's about time. The source is a blog based in a "frequent flyer" rumour though...

flyjetstar · Mon May 30, 2016 7:41 am

Quoting 77west (Reply 24):
Would have been nice to get some true J class in there to compete with QF but unlikely...

Just because QF do it is no reason for NZ to. When I was an FA with NZ there were very few times the 8 J seats at the front of the A320 were full - it was often empty or 1 or 2 people.

Now the A321 might be used to change things up but I suspect NZ will still use larger aircraft to meet the J demand TT.

NZ107 · Mon May 30, 2016 7:46 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 19):
Air NZ's 77W Premium Economy Spaceseat to be replaced.
Conflicting posts on flyertalk about when. One says after the Northern Summer, another says in the new year.

It kinda makes you wonder what sort of split they'll go with the space they have.. Whether they add more J seats or more Y seats. Surely they don't need half a section of Y+.

mariner · Mon May 30, 2016 7:49 am

Quoting gytr31 (Reply 23):
So Air NZ has announced today that AKL-WAG and CHC-BHE are being cut from July 31st.

I suppose the Q300's were too much aircraft for the route:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8011...ller-planes-at-Marlborough-Airport

"Air New Zealand phases out smaller planes at Marlborough Airport

The Beechcrafts were also phased out from the Blenheim-Christchurch route in early May, delivering an increase of 65 per cent more seats."

I wonder if anyone - Sounds Air, for example - will pick it up.

mariner

zkeoj · Mon May 30, 2016 7:57 am

Quoting 77west (Reply 24):
Would have been nice to get some true J class in there to compete with QF but unlikely...

To be fair, the J seats on QF's B738s is not that much different from a Y+ seat on NZ's B789. For TT I guess that is all you need, since lie-flat is not really necessary for a 3-4 hours flight. A bit of extra leg- and shoulder room is all that most business travellers want for such a flight (and some service, of course).

They could have put the old B763 seats in the A321

Cheers
micha

axio · Mon May 30, 2016 8:17 am

I think AKL-WAG and BHE-CHC are 8 Q300 sectors between them - or roughly one aircraft. Any indication where it is being redeployed?

I'm assuming from the wording in the press release that NZ doesn't feel the need to increase PMR (even by 1 flight), despite assuming that's where the travelers will go, on the basis of the capacity Jetstar provides. Another peak flight, like a 0730 departure, would be welcome there.

I'm also getting the impression the online schedules haven't been updated to reflect this - they still have the WAG/AKL flights in August. Booking engine isn't accepting bookings however.

flyjetstar · Mon May 30, 2016 8:26 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 25):
Yep. to be expected. I'm glad I flew CHC-BHE earlier this year.. I'm glad NZ isn't being bullied into maintaining the route by local politics.

Yep. With growth of second tier operators the towns impacted might be more hopeful of someone else stepping in.

zkncj · Mon May 30, 2016 8:58 am

Quoting axio (Reply 30):
I think AKL-WAG and BHE-CHC are 8 Q300 sectors between them - or roughly one aircraft. Any indication where it is being redeployed?

If anything maybe we'll see the Q300s start leaving the fleet? I would say within the next 48month NZ is working towards domestic fleet of A320 and ATR 72-600 only.

Sylus · Mon May 30, 2016 9:12 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
I wonder if anyone - Sounds Air, for example - will pick it up.

Interesting, we recently discussed CHC-WKA being a possibility on Sounds Air, this could be the perfect opportunity to get aircraft to CHC. BHE-CHC-WKA-CHC-BHE Now that would be nice with the PC-12.

Zkpilot · Mon May 30, 2016 9:12 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 19):
Air NZ's 77W Premium Economy Spaceseat to be replaced.
Conflicting posts on flyertalk about when. One says after the Northern Summer, another says in the new year.

http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201...-custom-premium-economy-spaceseat/

PA515

Was always going to happen. The economics of them just didn't stand up once they had to lose 6 seats per aircraft. It became a balancing act between getting use out of them (sunk cost) vs how much money the airline was losing/missing out on. Likely will just be the same seats as the 787 PE.

Motorhussy · Mon May 30, 2016 11:30 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
Likely will just be the same seats as the 787 PE.

Yes but 2-4-2 abreast rather than the 789's 2-3-2.

On the A32Xneo fleet, would there be space for 2-3 abreast or only 2-2?

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 29):
They could have put the old B763 seats in the A321

I'd prefer the PE seat of the 77E and 789.

[Edited 2016-05-30 04:46:51]

sunrisevalley · Mon May 30, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 32):
I would say within the next 48month NZ is working towards domestic fleet of A320 and ATR 72-600 only.

How would that affect communities that cannot support more than Q300 service? At the best a reduction in frequency or in the extreme a total loss of service or a switch to other carriers?

zkncj · Mon May 30, 2016 6:53 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 36):
How would that affect communities that cannot support more than Q300 service? At the best a reduction in frequency or in the extreme a total loss of service or a switch to other carriers?

Most likely an loss in service from NZ to those region, like what has already happens with the B1900D leaving the fleet. NZ has to operate as an Business, it gets none regional funding from the government, therefore has to solely run its regional business of its profit. With Jetstar entering the regional market, it has pushed NZ to review its costs and make cuts.

Most of the current routes left could handle an 72-600, and already see the 72-600 in the new timetable.

TRG,NPE,GIS,NPL,NSN,IVC,DUD,PMR could all handle it, and with the lower operating cost an certain amount of empty seats could be workable.

mariner · Mon May 30, 2016 7:58 pm

Quoting flyjetstar (Reply 31):
ep. With growth of second tier operators the towns impacted might be more hopeful of someone else stepping in.

Air Chathams has already put its hand up for one of them:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/805557...istchurchblenheim-regional-flights

"Air Chathams steps in as Air NZ pulls out of Whanganui

Air Chathams announced, almost simultaneously to Air New Zealand's announcement, they will be starting flights between Auckland and Whanganui as soon as Air New Zealand stops its service to the airport on July 31."

mariner

zkncj · Mon May 30, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
Air Chathams has already put its hand up for one of them:

I wonder if they are getting an extra metroliner? or will it be an DC3 service.

mariner · Mon May 30, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 39):
I wonder if they are getting an extra metroliner? or will it be an DC3 service.

I don't know their aircraft usage schedule well enough to know if here is any slack in it for the new service, but we seem to be in a period of realignment involving the small fry and aircraft will be an issue for all of them. Aircraft cost money and do they have - or can they find - that money?

Does Sounds, for example, have enough slack in its fleet to pick up BHE-CHC which seems like a natural for them.

The worst thing any of them could do is over-extend, such as KRA is doing with a 1 aircraft fleet:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel...ter-four-day-mechanical-delay.html

"Kiwi Regional back in the air after four day mechanical delay"

So while it is a time of some opportunity, it also has hazards.

mariner

[Edited 2016-05-30 13:32:15]

zkncj · Mon May 30, 2016 8:40 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
I don't know their aircraft usage schedule well enough to know if here is any slack in it for the new service, but we seem to be in a period of realignment involving the small fry and aircraft will be an issue for all of them. Aircraft cost money and do they have - or can they find - that money?

Apparently they are going to match the NZ weekday schedule into WAG, which currently is.

AKL-WAG
8:20am 9:20am NZ2753 - 1h
3:25pm 4:25pm NZ2755 - 1h
6:35pm 7:35pm NZ2757 - 1h

WAG-AKL
6:55am 7:55am NZ2750 - 1h
10:30am 11:30am NZ2752 - 1h
5:10pm 6:10pm NZ2756

Currently CV has

WHK - AKL CV801 6:45am 7:30am
AKL - WHK CV800 8:15am 9:00am
WHK - AKL CV807 11:00am 11:45am
AKL - WHK CV804 3:00pm 3:45pm
WHK - AKL CV809 4:45pm 5:30pm
AKL - WHK CV808 6:50pm 7:35pm

Surely this consumes most of the Metros day.

mariner · Mon May 30, 2016 8:57 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 41):
Surely this consumes most of the Metros day.

They could probably find a Metro for a million or so, but I don't know anything about their finances. I assume the Chatham Islands routes are money makers, but how much money?

It begs the question: it was a lightning fast announcement, so did Air NZ give them, or anyone, a heads up that they're dropping the route(s)? If they did - if - does it suggest that the big airline is ready to play at least some ball with the small fry?

Or was Air Chathams announcement a knee-jerk reaction and they'll work out how to do it later?

In either case, I think it's a clever move. At the very least, it means they can amortise some of their AKL costs over more flights.

mariner

[Edited 2016-05-30 14:03:44]

Gasman · Mon May 30, 2016 10:29 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
Or was Air Chathams announcement a knee-jerk reaction and they'll work out how to do it later?

Almost certainly not. Air Chathams is a registered company. Such decisions can't legally be made without holding a directors' meeting. It's possible one was held for this specific purpose under extreme urgency, but highly unlikely.

I think the death-knell for WAG was the retirement of the B1900. If ever there was an aircraft tailor made for the AKL-WAG city pair, it was that one. Whether another niche operator can make it work using different hardware remains to be seen.

nascarnut · Mon May 30, 2016 10:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
I wonder if they are getting an extra metroliner? or will it be an DC3 service

Air Chathams already have a second Metroliner ready to operate. It is painted in Air Chatham colours

sunrisevalley · Mon May 30, 2016 10:42 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
The worst thing any of them could do is over-extend, such as KRA is doing with a 1 aircraft fleet:

It is hard to believe they can afford to forgo the revenue of the 250 affected passengers, even more difficult to find the money where they needed to issue refunds!

aerohottie · Tue May 31, 2016 12:22 am

HNA of China to buy 13% stake in Virgin Australia.... more to come...
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/china-hna-buy-13-virgin-230217790.html

mariner · Tue May 31, 2016 12:28 am

Quoting Gasman (Reply 43):
Almost certainly not. Air Chathams is a registered company. Such decisions can't legally be made without holding a directors' meeting. It's possible one was held for this specific purpose under extreme urgency, but highly unlikely.

So you tend to the view that Air NZ did give them a heads-up?

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 44):
Air Chathams already have a second Metroliner ready to operate. It is painted in Air Chatham colours

Just for the record, that quote you replied to wasn't mine - a.net gremlins at work.

The question is, can they service WAG with the aircraft they have or will they need another?

mariner

Gasman · Tue May 31, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
So you tend to the view that Air NZ did give them a heads-up?

Yes.

I think NZ pulling out of regional routes reflects the fact that these are niche routes, for which aircraft and airline infrastructure need to be specifically targeted. It isn't a vote of no confidence in the routes themselves; simply that NZ doesn't wish to become the airline of 1000 colours it would need to be in order to make these lowish-yield routes viable.

That another operator is seamlessly stepping straight away removes some of the inevitable political heat which is heaped upon NZ every time they make a move such as this. There'll be other symbiotic aspects to the relationship which doubtless will become apparrent in due course

Motorhussy · Tue May 31, 2016 1:06 am

My concern with NZ retrenching in the regions - if the routes don't stand up on their own, then they have no value - is that passengers from the regions, when flying on other carrier from the start, will be more inclined to stay with other airlines from then on.

I think NZ is perhaps not looking at the total value equation of customer loyalty. When you invite a customer to try a competitor product, they're far more likely to keep using it. If they take another airline to an international hub, they'll be more inclined to take one from that hub.

Food for thought.

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