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OO-VEG
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 6:25 am

Dutch media is sharing news today about planns to suppor tthe growth of AMS by opening a new terminal building that as it seems like will be considered an independent airport, though it will make use of the AMS runway system. This terminal building should rise in the northern part of the airport, near the latest newly build runway and should focus on O&D traffic.

In addition a 7th runway should be build to the south of the airport.

This plann is still distant future as firstly the A pier and terminal need to be finished, and Lelystad airport will be upgraded first. But apparently the authorities agree Lelystad to be unable to support the growth in AMS sufficiently.

Interesting news, especially because the 1 Terminal concept will be abaonded then, however for LCC carriers or specific alliances I guess this is not such a bad thing. First thing it reminds me of is the 2-terminal concept of KUL where the LCC terminal is almost designated as a separate airport.
 
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CrimsonNL
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 7:14 am

I still don't understand why everyone keeps going on about LEY. NO airlines at all have expressed interest in moving operations there. Including EZY, Arkefly, Corendon or Transavia. I fear that the LEY expansion will ruin a really nice ga-airfield, and will be an extreme waste of money.

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KarelXWB
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 7:41 am

Another runway, lol. Why can other airports like FRA handle more traffic with less runways?
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B747forever
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 7:44 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):

Another runway, lol. Why can other airports like FRA handle more traffic with less runways?


Exactly my thoughts also. Look at LHR and their 2 runways.
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seahawk
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 7:55 am

Another runway? Seriously?
 
76er
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 8:10 am

Many runways at AMS are only used in one direction, mainly for noise reasons. The airport is also prone to relatively high winds from different directions, having only paralel runways like many other mega hubs would lead to too many airport closures. Having multiple runway options also spreads the noise problem over a larger area. Remember that AMS is in fact a city-airport, only a 15 minute trainride away from downtown.

[Edited 2016-05-27 01:16:29]
 
runway23
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 8:31 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 1):

I still don't understand why everyone keeps going on about LEY. NO airlines at all have expressed interest in moving operations there. Including EZY, Arkefly, Corendon or Transavia. I fear that the LEY expansion will ruin a really nice ga-airfield, and will be an extreme waste of money.

Realistically only Wizzair and Ryanair might set up shop there and even that is doubtful. Is setting up an airport for say maximum 5-10 flights per day worth it ?

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
Dutch media is sharing news today about planns to suppor tthe growth of AMS by opening a new terminal building that as it seems like will be considered an independent airport, though it will make use of the AMS runway system. This terminal building should rise in the northern part of the airport, near the latest newly build runway and should focus on O&D traffic.

I'd guess the easy solution here is to move all the low cost carriers to this new terminal, use the space of the H/M pier to re-configure it to be able to cope with non-LCC flights.
 
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seahawk
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 8:33 am

But south to the Kaagbaan is there not only the new Cargo Centre but also a quite newish commercial area?

The only option would to be rather close to the Kaagbaan so that the end of the new runway meets the southern end of the Aalsmeerderbaan.

But would those 2 runways be able to operate independently or would they not be too close? But it would make sense for southwesterly winds when AM is always facing operational problems. You could do take-offs on 27 and landings on 24L 24R - over vice versa.
 
stratocruiser
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 9:05 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 3):


Exactly my thoughts also. Look at LHR and their 2 runways.

Heathrow is not coping with 2 runways, with 20-30 minutes in holding patterns being common during busy periods. If it wasn't for meddlesome incompetent politicians, LHR would have had extra runways by now. Clearly the authorities in the Netherlands seem a lot more sensible - great to see AMS continuing to expand.
 
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KarelXWB
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 9:07 am

Quoting stratocruiser (Reply 8):
Heathrow is not coping with 2 runways, with 20-30 minutes in holding patterns being common during busy periods.

Sure, LHR could use another runway. But certainly not seven.
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Iemand91
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 9:30 am

This is old news knowns for years now. No idea why they came up with it now (again).
They even try to call it another airport.

This is how it should look like in decades time...

https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/kst-30494-2-9.gif
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LSZH34
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 9:32 am

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
This terminal building should rise in the northern part of the airport, near the latest newly build runway

That means between 18R/36L and 18C/36C I suppose. That's nice as far as taxi times is concerned.  
 
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EPA001
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 10:39 am

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
and Lelystad airport will be upgraded first. But apparently the authorities agree Lelystad to be unable to support the growth in AMS sufficiently.

The politics regarding Lelystad are a huge mistake imho.

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
This plann is still distant future

Yes, and a lot can change before the the comes to actually start building this expansion. But the general ideas behind it are good and they are looking to the future with these plans since AMS is growing fast as a major airport in Western Europe.  .

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 1):
I still don't understand why everyone keeps going on about LEY.

Me neither.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 1):
I fear that the LEY expansion will ruin a really nice ga-airfield, and will be an extreme waste of money.

Absolutely agree.

Where airports like Eindhoven (EIN) en Rotterdam-The Hague (RTM) theoretically could grow much more and both are much better situated near areas where a large demand of passengers can be found. Too bad the politicians still ignore these facts and have chosen a solution which no airline really wants.  
 
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cosyr
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 1:00 pm

This would be interesting, because normally the hometown airline would want the nicest and newest terminal, but there is no way that northern terminal could handle all of KL's activity, nor would other airlines need all the capacity in the existing terminal. KL would be faced with either having the old airport all to themselves, leaving plenty of room for growth, but less prestigous, or having a split operation, which degrades what makes AMS the easiest European airport for connections. That is something KL and Amsterdam should not disrupt lightly, plenty of people fly through AMS specifically for its American style layout that doesn't make them change terminals or ride buses, like LHR, CDG and FRA.
 
OO-VEG
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 1:24 pm

LEY is a very strange choice, and maybe pushed under the influence to bring more employment in the area. But I for one would absolutely NOT use it. However, I can imagine people from Groningen/Friesland/Overijssel could see the benefit of LEY as they really have no nearby alternatives except for BRE (pretty far though) and GRQ (pretty empty).

Where southwards there is RTM-ANR-BRU-EIN-MST-DUS-NRN
 
factsonly
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 1:56 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 13):
KL would be faced with either having the old airport all to themselves, leaving plenty of room for growth, but less prestigous, or having a split operation, which degrades what makes AMS the easiest European airport for connections.

You need not worry !

1. The 'old' AMS terminal dates from 1966, but no one would ever know. AMS has a history of continuous investment in its terminal facilities and the authority is about to open (July 1st, 2016) the complete renovated 'oldest' part of the one-terminal concept. It is as up-to-date as one can get.

http://www.schiphol.nl/Travellers/At...chiphol/SchipholRenews/Lounge2.htm

2. KLM, as the inventor of 6th freedom traffic, the airline will never accept a split operation as it will diminish transfer traffic.

The most likely scenario is that all non-KLM partner carriers move to the new terminal. Just as currently foreseen with the new A Pier/Terminal opening in 2019/2023.

http://www.schiphol.nl/Travellers/At...pholRenews/NewTerminalAndPierA.htm
 
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lightsaber
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 2:27 pm

AMS needs both expansions. Government committees do not tell passengers where to fly, only if airport growth is do constrained they must fly elsewhere (E.g. lack of single connection flights at times passengers want to fly enabled the ME4).

European airports are not hubbing at customer expectations. For example, my employer rarely flies employees to AMS, but instead flies employees to DUS or FRA as the J class fares (negotiated) are enough less to pay for the drive back to the Netherlands.

Connections to too many countries are better timed through ME4 airports. My employer tells employees when they must be on site and allowed options. Naturally everyone tries to spend as much time with family. If a non-EU3 flight allows a father to pick up a child from school and interact for a few more hours by picking another flight, they do so.

I can only speak from the customer perspective. I can tell you me and my fellow colleagues are excited about the A321LR as that opens up more time slots to Europe and thus allows us to fly to European vendors yet spend more time with family.

If AMS doesn't expand soon, it will miss out on the changes enabled by the new generation of longer range narrowbodies. Personally, I don't care as much about who I fly or where I hub, but how much time I miss with my kids (and the seat, as that impacts sleep).

The A321LR, 787, and A350 will change customer expectations. BOS, IAD, CLT, PHL, and other US hubs will accommodate. So will the ME4 hubs.

I want the EU3 airports to be competitive, so I hope for this expansion.

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r2rho
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
This terminal building should rise in the northern part of the airport, near the latest newly build runway and should focus on O&D traffic.

While a nice location in terms of taxi times to the Polderbaan, with the train station being in the main terminal, an O&D terminal there does not make sense unless they reroute the rail lines to stop there as well. Air-rail interconnectivity is crucial to AMS as the O&D airport for the Netherlands.

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
the authorities agree Lelystad to be unable to support the growth in AMS sufficiently.

If "the authorities" want to promote alternative airports to offload AMS (which I agree with), they should do so in the places where people actually live and want to travel to - RTM and EIN. Instead, these airports are forced to operate with a hand tied behind their back due to noise curfews (pushing even more traffic to AMS), and an airport where nobody wants to go (LEY) is expanded...  
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Another runway, lol. Why can other airports like FRA handle more traffic with less runways?

FRA handles the same as AMS north-south configuration, 120 ops/hour. In that case AMS uses the three (independent) 18/36's. Where AMS suffers is with strong westerly winds, in which capacity is reduced due to the rwys in this direction being dependent. The new runway would solve this problem, providing equal capacity in all wind situations.
AFAIK AMS typically only uses 3-4 rwys at a time. The complex combination of noise restrictions and wind directions means that AMS needs more runways to achieve comparable capacity (120 ops/hour) to other EU hubs.
 
Joost
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
In addition a 7th runway should be build to the south of the airport.

Most likely, this runway will be built south of and parallel to the 06/24 Kaagbaan, becoming 6L/24R. Especially for landings on 6L and take-offs from 24R, this will give the lowest possible noise over houses.

The same plans also used to call for closing the 09/27 Buitenveldertbaan, which has aircraft flying over densely populated Amsterdam and Amstelveen on arrival.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
Sure, LHR could use another runway. But certainly not seven.

Counting runways is slightly different from counting other things, and weather plays a role.

Heathrow has actually 4 runways, as both runways can be used in both directions.

Schiphol's runways cannot (all) be used in all directions.
* The Polderbaan 18R/36L can only be used in the Northern direction;
* The Aalsmeerbaan 18L/36R can only be used in the Southern direction;
* The Kaagbaan 06/24 is to be used almost exclusively in Southwestern direction;
* The Buitenveldertbaan 09/27 is hardly used in Western direction (as it conflicts with 18C/36C) and conflicts with 18L/36R ;
* The Oostbaan 04/22 is not typically used for airline traffic, except under very specific circumstances when other runways are closed;

The only runway which is really used in both directions (although predmoninantly to the North) is 18C/36C.

Using this logic, AMS has 6 runways compared to LHR's 4.

All together, for airline traffic, maximum 4 runways can be active on the same time, 2 for starts, 2 for landings. Of course, it is more than LHR or LGW
 
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ro1960
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AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 4:09 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):

Nothing wrong with planning ahead. AMS could take over the spillover transit traffic from London while the British politicians still discuss the new runway in England's South East.
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Amsterdam
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 18):
All together, for airline traffic, maximum 4 runways can be active on the same time, 2 for starts, 2 for landings. Of course, it is more than LHR or LGW

How often does this happen.
I always see either 2 runways for landing and 1 for take off.
Or 2 for take off and 1 for landing.

09/27 should never be permanently closed.
With strong winds from the west with winds from direction 270 through 310 you need the runway.
 
MaxxFlyer
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
Sure, LHR could use another runway. But certainly not seven.

Based on all the news, AMS will probably get it's 7th runway before LHR gets it's 3rd.
 
sirdanilot
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Fri May 27, 2016 9:26 pm

Living close to Schiphol, I am against building even MORE runways and more terminals at AMS. AMS is big enough as it is, with its 6 runways, and it is at the same time located in a very densely populated area. It is also a very expensive airport in terms of fares. That would become even more so because who is going to pay for that extra runway and terminal?

Instead I would much rather see an expansion of RTM. It is also located in a densely populated area, but if people in Hoofddorp can handle the noise AMS generates then certainly people living in the area surrounding RTM can handle some more as well. At this point in time, the potential of RTM is greatly under-utilized.

RTM should be expanded with one extra runway and have a modern terminal to match. It should become a major airport for LCCs, like Eindhoven is already is, but situated closer to the main urban areas where people actually want to go to (Rotterdam, The Hague, Amsterdam), and point-to-point traffic to 'Amsterdam' should move there as well. It could even start to sustain a minor amount of long-haul traffic to the most popular destinations in the US, Middle East, etc. This would leave more room for high-yielding and connections traffic at AMS. In addition to the airport infrastructure, RTM should get better connections to the outside world. A shuttle bus to the metro station (with the metro not operating at night) and virtually NO connections at night doesn't cut it. Ideally the metro station should be moved to near the terminal, but if that is not possible there should at least be good night busses to RTM from surrounding cities, or the metro should start to run 24/7.

As for LEY, I wouldn't mind a small low-cost airport there. Hardly anybody lives there so noise is not a problem, and by train you can still be in Amsterdam quite quickly, and it can also serve as an airport for the north of the country. It would probably spell the ultimate doom for GRQ, and many people who want to fly from AMS will still not use LEY.
 
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EPA001
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Sat May 28, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting sirdanilot (Reply 22):
Instead I would much rather see an expansion of RTM. It is also located in a densely populated area, but if people in Hoofddorp can handle the noise AMS generates then certainly people living in the area surrounding RTM can handle some more as well. At this point in time, the potential of RTM is greatly under-utilized.

RTM should be expanded with one extra runway and have a modern terminal to match. It should become a major airport for LCCs, like Eindhoven is already is, but situated closer to the main urban areas where people actually want to go to (Rotterdam, The Hague, Amsterdam), and point-to-point traffic to 'Amsterdam' should move there as well. It could even start to sustain a minor amount of long-haul traffic to the most popular destinations in the US, Middle East, etc. This would leave more room for high-yielding and connections traffic at AMS. In addition to the airport infrastructure, RTM should get better connections to the outside world. A shuttle bus to the metro station (with the metro not operating at night) and virtually NO connections at night doesn't cut it. Ideally the metro station should be moved to near the terminal, but if that is not possible there should at least be good night busses to RTM from surrounding cities, or the metro should start to run 24/7.

Regarding RTM-THA Airport I can only agree with this!  .

So many chances are lost due to political constraints caused by lach of vision and guts that it almost makes me sick. At least I find it extremely annoying.  

But AMS is in a totally different league and should be allowed to expand further, especially as in the coming 10 years the average noise production of aircraft will drop dramatically. Airliners have become more quiet since the '70's but the A380, B787 and A350 are the next level. Soon the A320-neo, B737-MAX, C-Series and Embraer will follow with quiet engines.

That leaves enough room imho for further expansions as well. Whether or not they need another runway is debatable but room for growth should be granted to them imho.
 
B8887
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Sat May 28, 2016 2:57 pm

Which orientation would this new runway have?...

How many new "jetbridged" parking positions would the new terminal add?...

Thx...

Regards.

B8887
 
OO-VEG
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Sat May 28, 2016 6:45 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 24):

Which orientation would this new runway have?...

How many new "jetbridged" parking positions would the new terminal add?...

I think it's too soon for that. The main idea is to have that terminal, and for the forseeable time we will have to deal with artist impressions. The go-live date of this airport should be somewhere around the estimated opening time of BER, so it's going to take a while. On a serious note... 2030-2040
 
hooverman
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Sat May 28, 2016 7:21 pm

Quoting sirdanilot (Reply 22):

There is hardly international demand for RTM.
AMS is the main airport.
If the noise bothers you why live there?
Move somewhere else.
 
Beatyair
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Sat May 28, 2016 9:40 pm

They announced the new tier and terminal addition this year, which will be done in 2020. They, being the airport, also said that the cost of a separate terminal was too expensive at this time and it is not being considered.
 
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EPA001
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Sun May 29, 2016 12:00 am

Quoting hooverman (Reply 26):
There is hardly international demand for RTM

That is true due to the fact that the airport is operating at the limits of the permits. It could handle a lot more flights if the airport permit limits were to be changed. Which they are in the proces of doing so, but a renewed permit will only allow a relatively small growth over the next 10 years or so where the airport could take over much more predominantly European flights.

Of course the airport would never compete with AMS, that would never be its intention. But the role that is currently being forced upon LEY could also be taken over by RTM (and EIN) if these airports were allowed to grow more. And they would be the more logical airports to take over some of the load of AMS in order for that airport to grow further with strategically more important flight connections.
 
sirdanilot
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Tue May 31, 2016 8:03 am

Quoting hooverman (Reply 26):

To translate a Dutch proverb, look further than your nose is long.

With your argumentation we could also say 'there is no international demand for LGW , so we should expand LHR , and people bothered by that should just move somewhere else'. Or JFK and EWR. Etc.

City-regions the size of the Randstad (ams - rtm - the hague etc., a total of almost 10 milion people) generally have at least two major airports, if we look around the world for city-regions with a comparable size. AMS is exactly so busy because almost ALL traffic is focused on it. Amsterdam has only one airport and AMS also serves the rest of the Randstad. The amount of traffic to RTM is peanuts compared to AMS exactly because it is such a tiny little airport which is also restricted by all sorts of silly regulations which do not apply to AMS for some reason.

So there are three ways to solve that problem: 1. expand AMS even more, making it one of the largest airports on earth 2. expand RTM 3. expand LEY which is in the middle of nowhere and will certainly attract MUCH less traffic than RTM even now.

Expanding RTM is the only option. If then, still, there is under capacity at AMS, then yes one could talk about expanding AMS. LEY will serve a completely different market than either AMS or RTM and developing it will hardly have any consequences for either.
 
r2rho
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Tue May 31, 2016 8:35 am

Quoting hooverman (Reply 26):
There is hardly international demand for RTM.
AMS is the main airport.

You cannot say there is no demand for RTM when the airport is forced to operate under heavy restrictions, and thus demand is artificially limited. To be able to claim that, you would need to lift the operating restrictions first, and if then still nobody would want to fly there, you could state there is no demand.
IMO, a well-developed RTM with less curfews would attract quite a few more flights than today. Of course it will never rival AMS, but today it is far below its potential.
I would happily fly to RTM sometimes when going to the Netherlands - if only I could!
 
sirdanilot
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Tue May 31, 2016 9:47 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 30):

You actually can, if you are living in Spain as your little flag says, from a reasonable array of (mainly tourist) airports. But, oddly, not from airports where actually a sizeable population lives. You cannot fly directly from Madrid to Rotterdam !

No Rotterdam is never going to rival AMS and it doesn't have to, but Rotterdam certainly has enough potential to attract a whole bunch of low-cost carriers who are now mainly avoiding RTM due to curfews and high costs, instead flying to EIN which is a lot farther away from... every place where people actually live. Rotterdam certainly has the potential to serve all major European cities. I do not know if it is technically possible for long-haul flights to land at RTM in its current state, I think not, but a second runway could help to allow even that. But even if long-haul is out of the question, still a whole bunch of European flights could certainly get rid of the overload on AMS.

In that sense, RTM would act as the ''''Domestic''''' airport of Amsterdam.

Note that there have actually been flights from rotterdam to Cabo Verde, I don't know if those still exist (logical due to the large amount of Capeverdians living in Rotterdam). So actually I think a small amount of long-haul traffic could make use of RTM. Example destinations: CUR, Paramaribo, JFK, etc.

[Edited 2016-05-31 02:50:03]
 
OO-VEG
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Tue May 31, 2016 11:04 am

Quoting hooverman (Reply 26):

Quoting sirdanilot (Reply 22):

There is hardly international demand for RTM.

That was also the case with EIN 10 years ago. Too close to AMS and other airports to be significantly interesting. RTM has the same potential, a large catchment area and enough O&D because of the port. With some proper investments the airport has potential to be at least as big as EIN, and therewith relieve AMS a bit.
 
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EPA001
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RE: AMS Expansion Plans: New Terminal / New Runway

Tue May 31, 2016 11:12 am

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 32):
That was also the case with EIN 10 years ago. Too close to AMS and other airports to be significantly interesting. RTM has the same potential, a large catchment area and enough O&D because of the port. With some proper investments the airport has potential to be at least as big as EIN, and therewith relieve AMS a bit.

Correct!   .

If you give RTM and EIN more space to grow then I am sure these airports will grow considerably faster than they do now. Though EIN has much more room to grow because of easier and "more spacious" permits it operated under.

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