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yowza
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JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Fri May 27, 2016 10:25 pm

Howzit SA friends!
Air Canada is operating a one off YYZ-JNB flight - a 77L as AC7050. It's scheduled to land at 06:00 Saturday but is currently almost 1 hour ahead of schedule. Tracking for a 05:03 landing. The charter will be bringing back a few hundred SA firefighter to help with the wildfire efforts in western Canada.

If only this was a regularly scheduled route.  


YOWza
 
9252fly
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Fri May 27, 2016 10:46 pm

Here it is on flightaware,halfway already.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA7050
 
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QB737
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Fri May 27, 2016 10:56 pm

Does someone know the flight number for the return portion?
Ben YVR
 
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AC_B777
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Fri May 27, 2016 11:24 pm

Quoting QB737 (Reply 2):
Does someone know the flight number for the return portion?

The return flight is AC7007 and is scheduled to depart JNB approx 0600 on May 29.
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GE9X
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Fri May 27, 2016 11:30 pm

I wonder who is paying for this, AC was criticized for its lack of charity during the YMM evacuation (it appears to have been blamed on automated ticketing systems but the PR damage was done), so are they flying it at their expense or are the governments footing the bill? 60 hours of non-revenue flying...

Also, is it headed to YEG or back to YYZ? JNB-YEG is a whopping 15,650 km, longer than SIN-JFK!
 
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77west
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 12:11 am

Quoting yowza (Thread starter):
If only this was a regularly scheduled route.

Not sure it would be economically viable especially the return flight from a 5500ft altitude..
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QB737
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 12:15 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 4):
Also, is it headed to YEG or back to YYZ? JNB-YEG is a whopping 15,650 km, longer than SIN-JFK!

According the FLIFO in Apollo, it will go JNB-BGI-YEG.
Ben YVR
 
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QB737
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 12:16 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 3):
The return flight is AC7007 and is scheduled to depart JNB approx 0600 on May 29.

Thanks for the information.
Ben YVR
 
threepoint
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 12:44 am

Quoting yowza (Thread starter):
The charter will be bringing back a few hundred SA firefighter to help with the wildfire efforts in western Canada.

200 South African firefighters are headed to the Fort Mac area to join 200 from the US and thousands from across Canada. The South Africans were in Alberta last year as well, and bring genuine amusement and a solid work ethic to the fireline. My question: is the plane empty on its way to JNB?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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AC_B777
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 1:05 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 4):
I wonder who is paying for this, AC was criticized for its lack of charity during the YMM evacuation (it appears to have been blamed on automated ticketing systems but the PR damage was done), so are they flying it at their expense or are the governments footing the bill? 60 hours of non-revenue flying...

This special charter flight is being operated in cooperation with the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre (CIFFC) and the Alberta Provincial Government. I would say the Govt of AB is paying for most of the expense, as they did with all the "free" WS flights during the evacuation.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 8):
200 South African firefighters

Actually, it's around 300.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 8):
My question: is the plane empty on its way to JNB?

Travelling on this Boeing 777-200LR aircraft are 13 flight attendants, four pilots, a Licensed Aircraft Technician and a Manager. The aircraft will also be carrying empty trolleys which will be used by the Johannesburg catering company to prepare for the two hot meals and two cold snack services on the return flight. The cargo hold has also been loaded with containers so the ground handler can easily load the bags.
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jfk777
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 1:26 am

Makes one wonder why AC doesn't fly this as a scheduled flight. YYZ to Jihannesburg would be a welcome addition to the AC route map.
 
Viscount724
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 1:32 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Makes one wonder why AC doesn't fly this as a scheduled flight. YYZ to Jihannesburg would be a welcome addition to the AC route map.

Not a big enough market and especially not enough premium traffic which is needed on such a longhaul route that uses a lot of aircraft time. The state of the South African economy and weak currency also doesn't help as fares have to be depressed for travel originating South Africa.
 
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 1:54 am

Quoting 77west (Reply 5):
Not sure it would be economically viable especially the return flight from a 5500ft altitude..

JNB-YYZ is "only" 118nm longer than DL's JNB-ATL, which has been scheduled for years.
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andz
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 1:08 pm

I saw it parked at JNB this morning and was wondering why it was here, nice to see another new livery here.

Speaking of new liveries here, I missed Ed Force One last weekend  

[Edited 2016-05-28 06:11:30]
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diverted
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 2:02 pm

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 9):
This special charter flight is being operated in cooperation with the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre (CIFFC) and the Alberta Provincial Government. I would say the Govt of AB is paying for most of the expense, as they did with all the "free" WS flights during the evacuation.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 8):200 South African firefighters
Actually, it's around 300.

Oh, I thought we had it fully under control, at least that's what they told the Russians when they offered to help....

Anyways, good on ya friends from SA. Thanks for helping out!
 
whywhyzee
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Makes one wonder why AC doesn't fly this as a scheduled flight. YYZ to Jihannesburg would be a welcome addition to the AC route map.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Not a big enough market and especially not enough premium traffic which is needed on such a longhaul route that uses a lot of aircraft time. The state of the South African economy and weak currency also doesn't help as fares have to be depressed for travel originating South Africa.

I have read on this site (thought I don't have a link) that SAA has applied to serve JNB-YYZ. Not sure what the status of the application is right now, especially with SAA under some significant restructuring programs. It certainly wouldn't surprise me to see this become a reality in the near future though, be it on SAA or more likely, on AC. I think the mining business ties between Canada and South Africa would be able to fill a decent number of premium seats, and JNB can serve as an O/D point (I know 1 South African guy in the GTA who travels back and forth frequently, so there is demand for at least one seat every year, which already makes it worth it in my mind :P) and as a stopover for southern Africa flights, which should attract a lot of passengers/business.
 
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 2:57 pm

Quoting QB737 (Reply 7):
According the FLIFO in Apollo, it will go JNB-BGI-YEG.

Any idea why they'd go via Barbados? Lisbon would add virtually nothing to the great circle distance and would follow what (to my mind) would be more normal flight paths. It's also a shorter initial distance from the high altitude take off. Is there an advantage to flying across the Atlantic even though it adds an extra eight hundred miles to the journey?

And after a decade or more on here I finally have a membership and a first post!!
 
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 3:11 pm

Quoting cloudlake (Reply 16):
Any idea why they'd go via Barbados?

From what I read on our internal site, BGI was pretty much in a straight line flight path from JNB-YEG. Also, AC has station ops there as well as contracted ground handling that we use.
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eddieho
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 5:53 pm

Any chance anyone can take a photo of that Air Canada plane in JNB?
 
eddieho
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 5:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

I'd disagree. Everytime I fly between JNB-YYZ through a connection, there is always a sizeable amount of people flying. Also, lots of my Canadian friends fly to SA - for business or leisure. A lot of people I talk to / work with in Canada wants to visit SA, but the fact that you have to connect in Europe or USA turns them off a lot.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 7:38 pm

Quoting cloudlake (Reply 16):
Any idea why they'd go via Barbados? Lisbon would add virtually nothing to the great circle distance and would follow what (to my mind) would be more normal flight paths. It's also a shorter initial distance from the high altitude take off. Is there an advantage to flying across the Atlantic even though it adds an extra eight hundred miles to the journey?

And after a decade or more on here I finally have a membership and a first post!!


Welcome to A.net !

As for your question, flying via BGI is only an 8% increase compared to the great circle non stop route. Not a big deal, especially when you consider that avoiding the North Atlantic means avoiding the headwinds of the jetstream. That extra mileage can easily be made up for by the lack of strong headwinds.

[Edited 2016-05-28 12:43:23]
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77west
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 8:44 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 12):
Quoting 77west (Reply 5):Not sure it would be economically viable especially the return flight from a 5500ft altitude..
JNB-YYZ is "only" 118nm longer than DL's JNB-ATL, which has been scheduled for years.

True. Does DL take a payload hit out of JNB?
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LimaFoxTango
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sat May 28, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting cloudlake (Reply 16):
Any idea why they'd go via Barbados?

Change of crew maybe? It's very easy for AC to get a crew there.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
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longhauler
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 12:21 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 22):

Change of crew maybe? It's very easy for AC to get a crew there.

The crew (Pilots and F/As) that flew JNB-BGI stayed at the regular crew hotel in BGI, then positioned back the next day, BGI-YYZ. The crew that flew BGI-YEG, positioned down to BGI the day before.

As noted above, AC has been flying to BGI since 1949. They have staff and facilities there, so crew transfers and layovers are easy. That is why the delivery flights of the E175s and E190s were all routed SJK-BGI-YUL, with a layover in BGI.
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Viscount724
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 12:49 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 17):
Quoting cloudlake (Reply 16):
Any idea why they'd go via Barbados?

From what I read on our internal site, BGI was pretty much in a straight line flight path from JNB-YEG.

Via BGI is roughly 700 nm further than the great circle route.

Great circle JNB-YEG, 8,451 nm:

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=jnb-yeg&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*

Via BGI, 9,140 nm:

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=jnb-bgi-yeg&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*

Quoting eddieho (Reply 19):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

I'd disagree. Everytime I fly between JNB-YYZ through a connection, there is always a sizeable amount of people flying.

Yes it's always easy to fill a flight but at what yield? If it could be done profitably it would already be operated.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 5:36 am

Return flight airborne.

http://www.flightradar24.com/ACA7007
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ACDC8
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 6:37 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 4):
I wonder who is paying for this, AC was criticized for its lack of charity during the YMM evacuation (it appears to have been blamed on automated ticketing systems but the PR damage was done), so are they flying it at their expense or are the governments footing the bill? 60 hours of non-revenue flying...

There was no lack of charity from Air Canada during the evacuation. The low end fares were snatched up just as they were with WestJet leaving only the high end fares left - those flights out of YMM were cancelled regardless and everyone got their refunds.

Air Canada was also vital to the evacuation itself, sending aircraft up to Firebag, Albian and Horizon aerodromes. They also offered those of us who needed to travel out of Province discounted tickets out of Alberta or free rebooking regardless of purchased fare. The also offered a 25% discounted fare for those of us needing to get back to Alberta. Not to mention the extra three fights that were sent up just for pets that were left behind.

Don't believe the social media haters, as someone who was involved with the evacuation process I know first hand that Air Canada went way above and beyond just as much as WestJet, Canadian North, Air North, North Cariboo and Flair did.
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GE9X
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 6:56 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 26):
Don't believe the social media haters,

I don't.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 26):
There was no lack of charity from Air Canada during the evacuation.

I know.

If you read carefully, my point is that the PR damage was done, rightly or wrongly. So my thinking was that it could have been a way to counter-PR, undo the damage somewhat. The world is unfair and companies often find themselves having to buy back some goodwill whenever something happens to the brand; whether or not they're responsible is irrelevant in the public mind.

But apparently it isn't a PR move and the governments are paying for the flights, as would be expected, so nothing to see here.
 
cloudlake
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 1:27 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 21):
avoiding the North Atlantic means avoiding the headwinds of the jetstream. That extra mileage can easily be made up for by the lack of strong headwinds.
Quoting eddieho (Reply 18):
AC has station ops there as well as contracted ground handling that we use.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
As noted above, AC has been flying to BGI since 1949. They have staff and facilities there, so crew transfers and layovers are easy.

Thank you folks for the insight, all very interesting  
 
ACDC8
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 4:20 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 27):
If you read carefully, my point is that the PR damage was done, rightly or wrongly

Sorry, it was more of a general statement as opposed directed towards you.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 27):
But apparently it isn't a PR move and the governments are paying for the flights, as would be expected, so nothing to see here.

Thats the thing, if WS were to do the same thing (being paid by the Government), the Westjetter's would be throwing a parade. AC does it, and they'll still get bashed - sigh. Its a cruel, cruel world I tell ya!  
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threepoint
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 7:53 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 14):
Oh, I thought we had it fully under control, at least that's what they told the Russians when they offered to help....

Oh come on. No need for politics. nobody - ever - said it was under control. And the Russians offered aircraft that quite simply wouldn't have integrated into the way we conduct business here. All our bases were saturated with aircraft, so not sure where we could have staged them anyway...? During an incident such as that one - with the visibility, communications and congested airspace that we faced - is not the time to throw a few oddball aircraft with no North American SOP experience into the mix.

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 9):
Actually, it's around 300.

Yes, thanks for that. The original request was for 200, and it got bumped higher afterwards. I hadn't heard about the revised number until after my post. Cheers.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
GSP psgr
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 8:38 pm

Someone once mentioned that AC was looking at running a YYZ-JNB route via Miami, which has a sizable South African population that could be tapped to supplement traffic from other points.
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Sun May 29, 2016 9:37 pm

Anybody have the FLT PLN for the FAJS-TBPB leg?
 
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BreninTW
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 12:33 am

There are a couple of pictures in this article. Interesting comment that most of the firefighters have never been on an aircraft before flying to Canada!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 12:02 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 8):
200 South African firefighters are headed to the Fort Mac area

That's 281 actually.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...murray-fire-south-africa-1.3605976
 
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longhauler
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 1:08 pm

Quoting eddieho (Reply 19):
I'd disagree. Everytime I fly between JNB-YYZ through a connection, there is always a sizeable amount of people flying. Also, lots of my Canadian friends fly to SA - for business or leisure. A lot of people I talk to / work with in Canada wants to visit SA, but the fact that you have to connect in Europe or USA turns them off a lot.

I have travelled between Canada and South Africa a lot, and yes, the transit through Europe is a grind as you have to spend all day in Europe between flights. But I can't imagine changing my needs for travel due to an inconvenient connection. Transit through the US is far quicker and much more convenient. But the best ... is through ADD on ET.

Air Canada has been looking at the YYZ-JNB market since the brand new DC-8-63 was delivered, which had one-stop range.

Today, with alliances and joint ventures, airlines know exactly how many people wish to travel between two cities and how often. That there presently is no service, is an indication of demand.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yowza
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 2:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
But the best ... is through ADD on ET.

Timing wise maybe but the experience may not be the best. A Zimbabwean-born friend of mine was travelling back last year and for whatever reason they decided upon landing in ADD that his Canadian passport was counterfeit (it was not) and threw him in the slammer! It took a couple of days and some serious intervention from consular officials to avoid an embarrassing international incident. Obviously this degree of incident is rare but I think it speaks to the differing experience of a white person vs a non-white person in certain parts of the world.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
Air Canada has been looking at the YYZ-JNB market since the brand new DC-8-63 was delivered, which had one-stop range.

Amazing! Crown corp speed of thought.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
Today, with alliances and joint ventures, airlines know exactly how many people wish to travel between two cities and how often. That there presently is no service, is an indication of demand.

Sad but true. I would love and would use a straight shot YYZ-JNB but as you've said the yields probably just aren't there.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
the transit through Europe is a grind

Increasingly many of my SA-Canadian circle have started taking an even bigger detour flying YYZ-DXB/AUH/IST-then onto SA. Obviously the free nights in DXB and whatnot are a draw but there are other drivers here. The biggest of which is that the South African passport has lost most of its international standing and so requires transit visas in many places where it once did not. The UAE and Turkey do not pose this issue.

YOWza
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 2:47 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 21):
True. Does DL take a payload hit out of JNB?

There was a recent post that suggested that Boeing and DL got their heads together to solve the tire speed issue which was apparently the constraint
 
threepoint
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 3:49 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 34):
That's 281 actually.

Thanks for clarifying a point addressed way back in reply #9.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
airnorth
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 4:19 pm

Not totally relevant at all to this thread, but would they block off the entire Business Class section, or would a few lucky Firefighters have the opportunity to stretch out in J?
 
threepoint
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting airnorth (Reply 39):
Not totally relevant at all to this thread, but would they block off the entire Business Class section, or would a few lucky Firefighters have the opportunity to stretch out in J?

AC has three versions of their 77L. I'm not sure which configuration Fin 701 - the airplane in question - is, but the allocation of J/PY/Y seats ranges between 40/24/236, 42/228 or 40/260. There were apparently 281 firefighters on board, so it would stand to reason that several people occupied the forward cabin(s) for all or part of the flight.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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GE9X
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 9:00 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 40):
AC has three versions of their 77L. I'm not sure which configuration Fin 701 - the airplane in question - is, but the allocation of J/PY/Y seats ranges between 40/24/236, 42/228 or 40/260.

All 77L aircraft are 40/24/236 including C-FIUA (701).
 
beechnut
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Mon May 30, 2016 10:17 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
I have travelled between Canada and South Africa a lot, and yes, the transit through Europe is a grind as you have to spend all day in Europe between flights.

I've done this trip a couple of times on business as well, on BA, YMX-LHR-JNB then on SAA to DUR. Back in the day (early '90s), booking a business-class seat on BA got you a free day room at the Hilton which was connected directly to T4 which BA used at the time. Given that both outward legs were sleep-deprived overnight flights, it was a welcome perk.

Coming back to Canada there wasn't as much time so I spent it in the BA lounge which had really good shower facilities.

The good ol' days when someone else was paying the fare (my employer at the time). Now I'm confined to cattle class for the rest of my natural life. I did the trip twice, first time in '90, BA744 YMX-LHR, then a 742 to JNB via NBO. Second time in '94, I seem to recall it was the other way around, a Classic on the YMX-LHR leg and a 744 to JNB which by then was non-stop. On the first trip, during a cockpit visit, the captain said the aircraft was brand new. YMX-LHR didn't need the 744's legs but they were using it on shorter trips for crew familiarization.

Beech
 
marktci
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Tue May 31, 2016 1:49 am

They look to be in pretty good spirits considering how long their journey was.

http://www.facebook.com/keena.half/videos/830104687123532/
 
Viscount724
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Tue May 31, 2016 2:47 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 40):
Quoting airnorth (Reply 39):
Not totally relevant at all to this thread, but would they block off the entire Business Class section, or would a few lucky Firefighters have the opportunity to stretch out in J?

AC has three versions of their 77L. I'm not sure which configuration Fin 701 - the airplane in question - is, but the allocation of J/PY/Y seats ranges between 40/24/236, 42/228 or 40/260. There were apparently 281 firefighters on board, so it would stand to reason that several people occupied the forward cabin(s) for all or part of the flight.

Several news reports say there were 300 passengers including 281 firefighters plus a dozen or more support staff, so looks like virtually all 300 seats were full.

A couple of onboard photos at the bottom of this South African news item show the new 10-abreast Y cabin.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...-as-they-arrive-in-canada-20160530

And in this South African news video, the first few seconds of onboard footage starting at about 1:16 show an obviously full premium economy cabin (3 rows of 2-4-2), so it's the new 40/24/236 configuration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjHG0GCfleA
 
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RE: JNB Spotters: Air Canada 77L Inbound

Tue May 31, 2016 3:28 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
And in this South African news video, the first few seconds of onboard footage starting at about 1:16 show an obviously full premium economy cabin (3 rows of 2-4-2), so it's the new 40/24/236 configuration.

The last pre-refurbishment 77L is currently at HAECO in Hong Kong for its conversion, so it cannot be anything else than that configuration.

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