Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
outbackair
Topic Author
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:01 pm

St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 12:50 pm

The first British Airways/Comair 737-800 has arrived at the new St Helena airport. Very exciting for the islanders.

This BBC article has a video showing the windshear. Awesome wingflex on a 737!

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36325972
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1293
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 1:42 pm

This video (without the music) was posted a couple of weeks back when it happened. The thread also contained cabin shots of the departure etc.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 2:46 pm

Was this flight a practice or did it have paying passengers on board? It seems the plane had a few go arounds before it finally made it to the ground.
 
seat64k
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 3:03 pm

Love the South African flag hanging out the window near the end:

Question about the runway: At first I thought it was a dirt track, given the amount of dust being thrown up. But later on you can see the painted lines. If this much sand makes it onto the runway, isn't there a fairly high risk of bigger objects blowing onto it? Particularly debris, although I don't imagine the island being too littered with metal bits and the like.
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 3:50 pm

I guess this must be a very dry island. If there was grass there would be less dust on the runway, but with no grass, and high winds (very evident in the landing) this is inevitable.
 
rugger
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:03 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 6:02 pm

Previous to air service the only way to the island was via a several day long ferry trip.
 
denverdanny
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:16 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 6:08 pm

It may well be a dry island, but they just built the airport, and I imagine there will be some dust or blowing dirt from the construction site. It apparently was an infilled gully. Can see the winds in the video too. Imagine it's windy at times being on a somewhat hilly island in the ocean.
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 6:16 pm

Were those couple of go-arounds intentional?
 
hoons90
Posts: 3876
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 6:21 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 2):
Was this flight a practice or did it have paying passengers on board? It seems the plane had a few go arounds before it finally made it to the ground.


I understand that it was a proving flight done a few months ago. Revenue flights were supposed to start several days ago, but those plans were postponed: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/st...ning-postponed-again-a7002226.html
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 9:27 pm

Quoting outbackair (Thread starter):
The first British Airways/Comair 737-800 has arrived at the new St Helena airport. Very exciting for the islanders.

This is very old news. That flight (a special pre-inaugural demonstration flight) was 6 weeks ago, April 18. Wonder why the BBC is digging that up so long after the event?

Discussed at length in this thread with photos and videos.
St Helena Island Airport Opening Soon (pictures) (by SAA201 Apr 5 2016 in Civil Aviation)#1
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3676
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun May 29, 2016 11:24 pm

Quoting rugger (Reply 5):
Previous to air service the only way to the island was via a several day long ferry trip.

Yep, which is why it was such a good prison for Napoleon.

Pretty spectacular landing, looks like any number of 737's and A320's arriving in WLG.
 
seat64k
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Mon May 30, 2016 8:13 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
This is very old news. That flight (a special pre-inaugural demonstration flight) was 6 weeks ago, April 18. Wonder why the BBC is digging that up so long after the event?

Presumably they had to wait for the next scheduled ship to bring the video tapes  
 
asctty
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:23 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Mon May 30, 2016 11:22 am

They will surely still need ships to bring in the fuel for the aircraft's return trip and the rest of the island's power needs?
 
seat64k
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Mon May 30, 2016 2:05 pm

Quoting asctty (Reply 12):
...and the rest of the island's power needs?

May I suggest their next big project  
Quoting outbackair (Thread starter):
...a video showing the windshear.
Quoting guyanam (Reply 4):
...and high winds
Quoting denverdanny (Reply 6):
Can see the winds in the video too.
 
flyjetstar
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:37 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:51 am

Thought this was an interesting piece on the whole situation plus some background too.
You can read it here.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 8108
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:24 pm

What the heck, BBC radio news lunchtime had a small bit about the airport. It quoted the island government officals saying that the airport may well not open at all. Appears that the windshear problem is greater than first thought.

Really, £250m for an airport you can not use, there must be a work around on this.

[Edited 2016-06-09 05:45:11]
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 8108
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:27 pm

A news update, the local idea is that some mountains close to the airport could be blown up to smooth the local airflow in the area. Go figure?
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 8108
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:40 pm

 
Speedbird555
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:42 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:48 pm

There does seem to be a positive side to this:

http://www.sainthelenaaccess.com/news/

Quote: "An emergency aero-medical transfer of a critically ill infant to Cape Town was successfully carried out at the weekend from St Helena Airport – the first ever Air Medevac from St Helena.
A Falcon 20 air ambulance, crewed by emergency response specialists ER24 and operated by Guardian Air of South Africa, arrived at St Helena Airport from Namibia on Friday 3 June 2016 at 13.57hrs local time – experiencing a smooth landing."

Lower down on same link:

Quote: "Following certification of St Helena Airport on Tuesday 10 May 2016, all parties are working to overcome the challenges of wind shear identified by the first few flights into the Airport. This work includes the development of appropriate operational procedures needed to allow services to use the northern Runway (20), where wind shear has been identified, as well as options for using the southern Runway (02), where wind shear has not been identified."

Seems all is not lost!
 
User avatar
dennypayne
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:50 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 17):
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36493860

Windshield warning system? LOL the reporter couldn't decipher the pilot's South African accent I guess. I suggested an edit for them...

[Edited 2016-06-09 12:51:53]
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2591
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:02 pm

Could this airport also be used as a diversion point for trans-atlantic flights?
 
sk736
Posts: 748
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:47 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:06 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Wonder why the BBC is digging that up so long after the event?

Probably because it's been on the BBC news today that the opening of the airport has been indefinitely postponed due to serious concerns about windshear. Apparently, nobody thought to consider it before spending £250 million of UK taxpayers' money!
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:38 pm

Quoting flyjetstar (Reply 14):
Thought this was an interesting piece on the whole situation plus some background too.
You can read it here.

Wow, a non-dom with the cheek to suggest how taxpayers money should be spent. Not an ounce of shame.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1293
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:02 pm

How on earth did nobody discover this wind problem during the planning and construction phases?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:37 pm

Typical media flap. it's true that the airport opening is delayed, it's not true that the airport is a write-off, as some of the politicians and mediots seem to be implying.

BBC ( http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36490496 )says:

Quote:

Sir Amyas Morse, head of the NAO, said: "Estimating the likely costs and benefits of a project such as this is an inherently difficult task, particularly with a limited number of precedents for building an airport in a remote location.

"The airport's planned opening date in May 2016 has been postponed as outstanding safety concerns are addressed, potentially adding to the project's cost and delaying its benefits."

See also http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...top-airport-on-island-of-st-helena which ends with the following:

Quote:
The headline on this article was corrected on 9 June 2016 to make clear that the opening of the airport has been delayed, not scrapped.

What a bunch of   s!
 
TC957
Posts: 4135
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:04 am

According to the BBC news this morning, scheduled services have now been delayed indefinitely over safety concerns due to crosswinds.
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1933
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:18 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 15):

Really, £250m for an airport you can not use, there must be a work around on this.

Perhaps we could ask the Berlin Brandenburg government for advice, they have some experience of building "an airport you can not use"  
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:31 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 25):
According to the BBC news this morning, scheduled services have now been delayed indefinitely over safety concerns due to crosswinds.

I'd read wind shears. Can be the same thing, but not always.


I'd imagine a part of it would be wind spilling up and over the cliff edge just before the threshold.

http://sthelenatourism.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/IMG_62361.jpg


Also, as you say, cross winds coming up over the other cliff adjacent to the runway - its a helluva exposed location.



So. Options.

1. What has the range to go that far and has a much higher wing loading than a 737/320?
2. Can baffles be installed along the cliff edge to diffuse wind over the ledge?
3. If an aircraft with better take off/landing capabilities is used, can it approach from the other side without hitting the shears before its on ground?
 
finnishway
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:37 pm

It still amazes me that in the 21st century winds can cause this much problems for an airport to be opened. After all man has accomplished more astonishing things in the history than this.
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 28):
It still amazes me that in the 21st century winds can cause this much problems for an airport to be opened. After all man has accomplished more astonishing things in the history than this.

The issue here is the rather substantial lack of diversion airports. The nearest available diversion airport is Luanda which is 1200nm away. Ascension is only 700nm but can't be planned as a diversion airport as it's a military airfield.
In normal commercial operations a pilot should always perform a go-around if they get a windshear warning on approach. The likelihood of being able to perform multiple approach attempts prior to diverting to Luanda is quite small.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 27):
So. Options.

1. What has the range to go that far and has a much higher wing loading than a 737/320?
2. Can baffles be installed along the cliff edge to diffuse wind over the ledge?
3. If an aircraft with better take off/landing capabilities is used, can it approach from the other side without hitting the shears before its on ground?

1. Nothing economical, and then nothing that has the required airfield performance on a 5500ft runway.
2. Possibly, although looking at the video of the 737 landing they would probably just move the problem. Also baffles would only be for a single wind direction.
3. Not really, the 737 is pretty good as it is. A tailwind would likely make this approach almost impossible to perform safely.
 
User avatar
speedbird707
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:04 pm

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 29):

Not that this type is available at the moment...but couldn't a C300 do it? Range would be snug but the runway length is up its alley...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:20 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 28):
It still amazes me that in the 21st century winds can cause this much problems for an airport to be opened. After all man has accomplished more astonishing things in the history than this.

Every pilot has a healthy respect for what the wind can do, especially close to the ground. In this case, the air has a good thousand miles to build up a lot of energy before it hits St. Helena Island and once it hits the island it becomes turbulent. Another word for turbulent would be chaotic. A jet airliner can compensate for steady winds but it really can't compensate for strong turbulent air near the ground in a 100% dependable way. On the other hand we have jet airliners landing at airlines subject to mountain wind conditions all the time so there is a reasonable understanding of similar conditions.

This reminds me of how I nearly soiled myself as a pax on a jet landing at RNO once. Winds were spilling off the mountains and we got one heck of a roller coaster ride. I imagine this airport will never be an easy one to land at unless they happen to have calm winds, which isn't that likely given its location. Time will tell.

I don't know what the outcome of this will be because I'm not a professional in this area, but I gather there will be studies made to understand a lot more about what conditions will need to be met before a landing is attempted. Hopefully these conditions can be predicted so the plane doesn't have to fly 1200mi just to turn around again. It seems there may be a need for additional instruments to be installed on the island to help understand the conditions. As the Guardian article above suggests, this means additional time and money will be needed.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2591
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):

Why wasn't this done before the airport was even built. The winds at St. Helena are certainly not something new.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 32):
Why wasn't this done before the airport was even built.

it's not clear what was or was not done, but there is a new statement today from the government:

Quote:


ST HELENA AIRPORT
Posted on June 10, 2016 by St Helena Government | Leave a reply

STATEMENT FROM GOVERNOR LISA PHILLIPS

“Press reports in the UK and elsewhere that describe St Helena Airport as being ‘scrapped’, ‘mothballed’ or ‘postponed indefinitely’ are incorrect. The situation remains as in our last update. This is that there are wind shear challenges on one runway (20, the northern approach) which means larger planes (eg. 737-800) cannot currently land safely. We are collecting wind data which will allow larger planes to land on this runway, but this will take some time.

“Wind shear is a factor at several airports around the world, including London City Airport, where safe landings happen every day.

“In the meantime, we are working hard to identify an interim flight solution that can land on our second runway (02, from the south). There is no wind shear on this second runway, but there is a tailwind. We have identified aircraft types which can land in these conditions, and airlines that have such planes – and we are now exploring the specific availability of aircraft with these airlines.

“The Airport is certified and open, as demonstrated by the emergency medevac flight last Saturday when we were able to fly a sick baby to Cape Town.

“Naturally, we will keep the public informed … as we have been doing.”

Governor Lisa Phillips

SHG

10 June 2016

Ref: http://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/st-helena-airport-2/

So it seems as usual the media has overblown things...
 
finnishway
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:33 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
We have identified aircraft types which can land in these conditions, and airlines that have such planes – and we are now exploring the specific availability of aircraft with these airlines.

Which aircraft and airlines these could be?
 
Q
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 10:29 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:07 pm

Hope that airlines will continue to fly to HLE.

Q
 
TC957
Posts: 4135
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:02 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 34):
Which aircraft and airlines these could be?

ANA have sold their 2 737-700ER's to the US, surely these would be the perfect aircraft for any new airline looking at HLE services ?
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10969
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:05 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
So it seems as usual the media has overblown things...

Well the government is saying that commercial operations are postponed indefinitely, for a new airport that is pretty telling.
The issue is what to do, and while they take their time thinking and investigating:
1. Local investors who expected the tourist industry to pick up are loosing money - a push for compensation will follow
2. Comair the BA subsidiary is already being paid for the flights and will continue to be even though no flights are taking place
3. A ship has to be found to provide service while the airport is down.

Based on some articles, sufficient warnings were given about the "possibility" of wind problems and the experts said they were non-founded, so we have what we have and those experts are now revisiting their investigations.
I don't believe additional sensors are the solution, something has to be built to "disturb or break up" the wind flow on approach, whether there is enough land mass to do so I can't tell from the pictures I have seen.

One thing we all know, where there is a will there is a way, and man has often found ingenious ways to accomplish our needs, however, in this day and age where money is everything, who knows.
Time will tell, would be fun to have a new Kaitak for spotting.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:08 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 37):
1. Local investors who expected the tourist industry to pick up are loosing money - a push for compensation will follow

Isn't the number one caution of investing is that you may lose some or all of the investment? If investment return were guaranteed it wouldn't be an investment would it?
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10969
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:33 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 38):
Isn't the number one caution of investing is that you may lose some or all of the investment? If investment return were guaranteed it wouldn't be an investment would it?

Yes, and if the government had not invited investors to invest due to them building a new airport to accommodate more tourist those investors would not have taken out loans and would have gone elsewhere.
We are talking about infrastructure, if the government did not expect to receive returns on their investment they would not have built the airport, they drummed up the local investment including paying a subsidy for an air carrier to provide service.
Do you think the government is continuing to pay Comair out of the goodness of their heart?
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 3052
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:38 pm

As it looks now the St Helena government should do what it can to grant access to ASI Ascension Island Wideawake airport so it could be used for diversions. It's not that uncommon that military airfields might be used for diversions, probably the U.S. Air Force (which manages ASI?) might have to set up a special apron far from the rest of the airport infrastructure to secure the diverted aircraft and its passengers don't go or see what they're not supposed.
St Helena airport folks face on one side sort of the same challengers the Chileans have with IPC and on the other of those challengers the Portuguese have with FNC, so probably if on the island they haven't checked how the chileans manage diversions on Easter Island or the Portuguese the winds on Funchal, they should do it now.
If the airport is only suitable to use by up to smaller non-RJ jets, Embraer 190/170 may be one of the aircraft type OK to fly to St Helena if ASI was accessible, if not, probably Boeing 737-600/700 and Airbus 318 might.
St Helena airport showing wind issues now look like a case of insufficient due-dilligence procedures before its design.
 
Natflyer
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 pm

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:45 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 40):
“Press reports in the UK and elsewhere that describe St Helena Airport as being ‘scrapped’, ‘mothballed’ or

Well ASI is (was) not really closed to commercial flights, I have landed there to refuel, on a pax charter across the South Atlantic.

I have also landed at IPC and it was actually very benign. Might be tougher another time of year, islands in the middle of the sea tend to be different.

But I do know of an aircraft type that would be (IMO) quite suitable to St.Helena. Both range and field performance wise.
It is a well know anet favourite that is no longer in production.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 41):
It is a well know anet favourite that is no longer in production.

Hmm... are pax-to-combi conversions available? AFAIK, the OEM only ever built one combi and that one is still in use.
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: St Helena - First 737 Arrives (video)

Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:22 pm

Hmm. A well known favourite no longer in production? Guess those portable air stairs and belt loaders and fuel trucks will have to do just a bit higher

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos