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KarelXWB
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Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 9:28 am

Frantz Yvelin, CEO of an airline that operates the 757, says Boeing made a mistake abandoning the 757. He goes even further and says he believes even Boeing regrets that decision.

Quote:
By the early 2000s, sales of the 757 had all but dried up and Boeing put the plane out to pasture in 2004.

But a decade later, airlines have come to understand that the 757’s odd-ball tweener nature has translated into incredible flexibility. It’s able to generate profits both in short-range domestic flights as well as on long-haul trans-Atlantic flights.

Yvelin doesn’t think Boeing made right move by abandoning the MOM jet.”I think Boeing made a big mistake stopping the production of the 757,” the CEO said. Instead, Yvelin, who has founded two separate airlines that operate 757s exclusively, believes Boeing should have stuck with the plane and developed updated versions with new wings and engines like Airbus has done with the A320 and A330. Yvelin sold his first airline to British Airways in 2008.

“I know a lot of people at Boeing and I believe they are regretting their decision,” Yvelin added. “Perhaps one day they will do a true successor to the 757.”

Source
http://www.airnewslive.net/boeing-ma...12-years-ago-left-customers-lurch/
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hOMSaR
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 9:39 am

Ok, so a CEO that operates all of two used Boeing 757s thinks Boeing should have kept building the plane that nobody else was buying for the last 10 years?
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na
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 9:41 am

Boeing has made many mistakes in product planning, not just abandoning the 757 market niche. Boeing made the 787 bigger than the predecessor 767, thus prolonging the 767s life as not everybody wanted to take the step. I am sure their original plan was to let the 767 die on the advent of the 787. They made the 777 so big that it endangered the flagship 747, certainly also something not originally envisaged. They are developing the 777X when a all-new 737 successor would have been the wiser first step. Now they have the 737Max which will hardly last for more than a decade I think.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 9:47 am

Quoting hoMsaR (Reply 1):
Ok, so a CEO that operates all of two used Boeing 757s thinks Boeing should have kept building the plane that nobody else was buying for the last 10 years?

Also note the following quote:

Quote:
“I know a lot of people at Boeing and I believe they are regretting their decision,” Yvelin added.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
klm672
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 10:05 am

Here we go again.............



filler



filler
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 10:17 am

We are back to the most talked about theme on a.net. I do agree with the sentiment as I am myself a big fan of the bird and its capabilities. I know that Boeing cancelled a few orders that were not delivered. But I also are of the opinion that this is crying over spilt milk. The 757 will not be produced again.

[Edited 2016-05-30 03:51:30]
 
B777LRF
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 10:17 am

Please tell me where the next-generation turbofan producing 40K lbs of thrust was in 2000. Or in 2004, for that matter.

Boeing didn't kill the 757, the market did. And what the market did was buy 737-800/900 and A320/321 to replace them, which works for roughly 95% of the missions

.
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B747forever
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 10:56 am

So now CEOs join the discussion about how Boeing never should have ended the production. I guess that the CEO of FI will be next. Their whole business plan revolves around the 757 and its ability to connect North America and Europe via KEF.
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:01 am

These threads are an A.net classic, much like the 737.

They ain't ever going to die.
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:01 am

95% of the primary mission of the 757 can be done by A321 and 737Max9. The 757 has gained this reputation as an Atlantic airplane but this was an added dividend never envisioned when Boeing designed it, this is only 5% of what the plane does. Whatever Boeing designs to replace the 757 or 737 will be for 95% of what the 757 did.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:06 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 6):
Please tell me where the next-generation turbofan producing 40K lbs of thrust was in 2000. Or in 2004, for that matter.

Boeing didn't kill the 757, the market did. And what the market did was buy 737-800/900 and A320/321 to replace them, which works for roughly 95% of the missions

The 737-900 has not sold numbers to talk about and when the A321 started to sell in the USA, the 757 was gone. All this talk about the 757 is exactly coming because the 737-900 does not sell. 95% or whatever is not a replacement it is an excuse and the 737-900 does not reach 95%, perhaps the A321 does.
The 767 did not sell much better in those years, but stayed in production.

Yes there is no new 40 klbs engine in the works today, but as the RB211 was the predecessor of the RR Trent, IMO it would not have been impossible to produce a right sized Trent as an upgrade in the late 2000.

I am not talking about Boeing should resurrect the 757, but that killing it was a mistake. The 757 is replaced by an Airbus bird instead of Boeing.

[Edited 2016-05-30 04:43:39]
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:11 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 6):
Please tell me where the next-generation turbofan producing 40K lbs of thrust was in 2000. Or in 2004, for that matter.

At the time the A340NG was looking for an engine and the failed P&W offering could have been a start or the Trent 500 could have developed into a family just like the RB211.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:25 am

Quoting na (Reply 2):
Boeing made the 787 bigger than the predecessor 767, thus prolonging the 767s life as not everybody wanted to take the step. I am sure their original plan was to let the 767 die on the advent of the 787.

This is incorrect. The 767 was killed by the A330 long before Boeing had anything to do with the 787.
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ZKNCL
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:38 am

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 8):
These threads are an A.net classic, much like the 737. They ain't ever going to die.
Quoting klm672 (Reply 4):
Here we go again.............

You're both right, we all know the 757 replacement topic is oversaturated, however that doesn't excuse the fact that this is actual insight from inside the industry for a change. Before you snap out your witty one-liners you should probably understand that this is no typical 757MAX or replacement speculation thread as this is an industry opinion to do with the actual cancellation of the programme. The last time this topic actually had any news was when Air Astana threw in their 2c.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 11:59 am

The 757 would have been murdered by the A321 starting 10 years ago. And certainly now.

To be cost competitive with A321 would require re-designing the 757 to be just like the A321.

[Edited 2016-05-30 04:59:59]
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 12:11 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 5):
We are back to the most talked about theme on a.net.

Well something had to replace the "When will NWA retire their DC-9's?" threads.  

What are opinions that Boeing could have just scaled back production to a trickle until the market kicked back up to keep the line going?

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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 12:25 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
The 757 would have been murdered by the A321 starting 10 years ago. And certainly now.

To be cost competitive with A321 would require re-designing the 757 to be just like the A321.

No, given the same engine improvements and other tweaks (MTOW growths) the range of the 757 would grow, allowing it to keep an advantage over the A321 for longer missions.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 12:33 pm

Oh for effs sake. Stop trying to make the 757 happen.
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 12:39 pm

This is the most talked about theme... 757, 757 replacement etc etc. There is no 757 without fire.

The 757 wasn't selling, perhaps because of lack of interest and development. It's was cancelled and I recall Boeing broke all the tooling etc and this had a tax benefit.

Now we have the 737-10, eeking out as much as possible from the 737 but now, adding in longer gear etc and differentiating from the 737 slightly.

It's a shame the 757 wasn't given the same treatment as the 737Gen but we are where we are. Aircraft manufacturers make mistakes. Boeing just happen to make theirs and hand over a bundle of sales to Airbus which led to a bundle of sales more for smaller models because of commonality.

One could argue Airbus made a mistake with the A318...

Its how you respond to that mistake that matters. Let's see what the 737-10 becomes. It may be the 757MAX.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 12:47 pm

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 13):
this is actual insight from inside the industry for a change.

From a guy that runs a small airline that uses 757s. Get a quote from Willy Walsh, Ed Bastian, Doug Parker, or some other CEO of similar stature, and I'll take you seriously. The fact that there are a few small airlines that wish the 757 was in production does not create a large enough market to justify continued production.
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BestWestern
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 1:05 pm

One of the 757 issues was China. The altitudes that flights in Chinese airspace fly for a large proportion of their sectors renders the 757 totally inefficient in comparison to the 320/737 or 330.

This comes from the chief pilot of the Xiamen 787, an ex-TW pilot.
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 1:10 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 20):
One of the 757 issues was China. The altitudes that flights in Chinese airspace fly for a large proportion of their sectors renders the 757 totally inefficient in comparison to the 320/737 or 330.

This comes from the chief pilot of the Xiamen 787, an ex-TW pilot.

Can you elaborate on that?
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 1:53 pm

Quoting klm672 (Reply 4):
Here we go again.............



filler



filler

Hey, that will be enough of that!! If somebody want to post another 757 topic, they have right to do so. We need to stop disrespecting, our fellow A-Netter. I will support anybody who wants to post a 757 topic here, because they have the right to do so.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 2:13 pm

The 757 is a narrowbody with widebody maintenance characteristics. Engines that cost twice what a narrowbody engine does per takeoff.

Boeing needs a new 757. It is either the 737-10 or MoM.

Quoting klm672 (Reply 4):
Here we go again...........

It is Monday...

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 8):
These threads are an A.net classic, much like the 737.

But not up to the level of the DC-9 threads.
  

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
The 757 would have been murdered by the A321 starting 10 years ago. And certainly now.

No 757MAX would stand up to the A321NEO for 95% of the routes. The shortfield routes will be well served with the new shortfield kit on the A320NEO.

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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 2:27 pm

When is this topic ever going to end?!? To say Boeing made a mistake is not fair because they had no idea that the 57 would prove to be the diamond in the rough that it is today. Why did they shutdown the line? For the same reason why Airbus scuttled the A340 line, insufficient sales, plain and simple.

If he likes the 57 that much, he should look at buying more, waiting for Boeing to come up with something or buy an A321.

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

“I know a lot of people at Boeing and I believe they are regretting their decision,” Yvelin added. “Perhaps one day they will do a true successor to the 757.”

Keyword being "believe", which is translation for "I'm not sure".
 
Oshkosh1
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 2:44 pm

I must have clicked on the "757 Net" by accident again.

I for the life of my cant understand what the fascination with it is....

Nice aircraft, but really not that special.
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:05 pm

In a way, the 752 turned into a niche plane that sold well because US-based airlines bought large numbers of them. And those same US-based airlines found the perfect replacement in the higher MTOW A321-200 that could fly US transcon non-stops--and will likely replace many of the 752's with A321 models assembled at Airbus' new assembly line in Mobile, AL and will buy the 737 MAX 8 and 9 to replace the 752 on less-than transcontiental routes.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:18 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
The 757 is a narrowbody with widebody maintenance characteristics. Engines that cost twice what a narrowbody engine does per takeoff.

Woaa! Have I just learned something new from the 'If it is Monday it must be the a.net 757 re-start tread'?
I knew the 757 was maintenance heavy compared to modern day offerings but I had no idea the engines specifically were a large part of that. Please tell us more.
I'm always happy to read about engine stuff by Lightsaber.
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TC957
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:32 pm

If Fed Ex couldn't persuade Boeing to start building 757's again two years after the last one was built when they wanted 90 of the freighters, then I don't think Boeing directors will loose too much sleep over what this guy is saying 10 years later.
 
lostsound
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:34 pm

The guy has ran two airlines, both all business class... he's not even using the 757s for the missions regular airlines use 757s on. Say Boeing did start up production again, what would he do? Order 2 to replace the 2 he has?
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:45 pm

Cue the copy and paste of a million previous comments on Anet on the same topic.

[Edited 2016-05-30 08:46:04]
 
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9lflyguy
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:51 pm

Here we go again. We really have to use the search function to find the other 100+ threads on this. This thread should be closed and locked and referenced back to last week's 757 post.
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Burkhard
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:56 pm

If an aircraft does not sell for years, you better give it up. The 757, while popular in the US, failed on most markets because it was to heavy - this design fault was the reason for the success of the A320 which was the better 727 replacement.
 
bohica
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 3:56 pm

Quoting klm672 (Reply 4):
Here we go again.............
Quoting klm672 (Reply 4):
We are back to the most talked about theme on a.net.
Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 8):
These threads are an A.net classic, much like the 737.

They ain't ever going to die.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
Oh for effs sake. Stop trying to make the 757 happen.
Quoting Btblue (Reply 18):
This is the most talked about theme... 757, 757 replacement etc etc. There is no 757 without fire.
Quoting rotating14 (Reply 24):
When is this topic ever going to end?!?

   Agreed.

Let's just bring back the NW DC-9 threads.   
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 4:05 pm



Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 30):
Cue the copy and paste of a million previous comments on Anet on the same topic.
Quoting 9lflyguy (Reply 31):
This thread should be closed and locked and referenced back to last week's 757 post.
Quoting bohica (Reply 33):
Agreed.

Maybe you guys should complain to the Mods. Afterall, a moderator started this thread.   

[Edited 2016-05-30 09:12:16]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 4:15 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 10):
The 737-900 has not sold numbers to talk about and when the A321 started to sell in the USA, the 757 was gone. All this talk about the 757 is exactly coming because the 737-900 does not sell.

The 737-900/900ER have had 433 orders, not the greatest numbers, but not terrible numbers for a subvariant either. The 737-900 also benefits from being on the exact same production line as the rest of the 737 family, meaning the cost to Boeing for keeping that model alive is fairly small (same with the 737-9Max and other 737 Max models; once the development/certification costs are paid, the cost to keeping it around is very low).

The 757 required its own production line which could not be used to build other types concurrently if the 757 didn't sell. That is the whole reason the 757 line was shut down.
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 4:16 pm

What I find truly fascinating is the A.net obsession with the 757. I wonder is there a formal academic qualification of this phenomenon or is it just plain nostalgia?


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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 4:25 pm

Quoting na (Reply 2):
They made the 777 so big that it endangered the flagship 747, certainly also something not originally envisaged.

Boeing was forced into making the 777-300 the size that it is to compete against the A340-600 which was being sold as a 747-100 and 200 direct replacement. The A340-600 had the passenger capacity of the 747-100 with the range of the 747-400, more cargo capacity, and better fuel economy. If Boeing hadn't developed the 777-300 and 777-300ER, Airbus would have sold lots more A340-600's. Also, without the 77W, there would never have been a 77L and 77F. Perhaps Airbus would have build more A340-500's and even developed a freighter variant of it. The passenger 747-400 was already doomed regardless of whether Boeing made the 77W as big as it is or not.
 
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 5:03 pm

Quoting Btblue (Reply 18):
One could argue Airbus made a mistake with the A318...

It didn't sell well but at least it can do things its bigger siblings can't, like landing at LCY. What about the 737-600 ?

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 24):
When is this topic ever going to end?!? To say Boeing made a mistake is not fair because they had no idea that the 57 would prove to be the diamond in the rough that it is today. Why did they shutdown the line? For the same reason why Airbus scuttled the A340 line, insufficient sales, plain and simple.

The A340 can be operated profitably and do things like hot and high with a full belly its replacements can't do. The 757 is in the same boat, it's not a "diamond in the rough".
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flyabr
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 5:12 pm

The irony here is although most of ya complain incessantly about the proliferation of "bring back the 757" threads, you jump right in and keep 'em popular with your posts!  
 
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Revelation
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

I Made A Mistake Opening This Thread.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:23 pm

Do we have to go through this every week on A.net. One more time: The 757 was discontinued because no-one would buy it. I remember a leasing company CEO saying that the market for the 757 was completely dead a few years before. The 757 is an awesome airplane, just like the 707 and 727. It reached the end of it's life cycle. The airplane was designed over 34 years ago.

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 12):
This is incorrect. The 767 was killed by the A330 long before Boeing had anything to do with the 787.

You are partially correct, but the 767 is exactly killed yet either.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:35 pm

Quoting Faro (Reply 36):
What I find truly fascinating is the A.net obsession with the 757. I wonder is there a formal academic qualification of this phenomenon or is it just plain nostalgia?

It is for lack of more interesting threads.    .

Quoting flyabr (Reply 39):
The irony here is although most of ya complain incessantly about the proliferation of "bring back the 757" threads, you jump right in and keep 'em popular with your posts!

         .

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 41):
Do we have to go through this every week on A.net. One more time: The 757 was discontinued because no-one would buy it.

You're doing it.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
I Made A Mistake Opening This Thread.

        
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:44 pm

Lets not get overly excited. It is a fair topic when an airline CEO expresses an opinion. I think we have consensus here on the value of that opinion, but that's fine. I don't mind an extra thread.
 
Triple Seven
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:50 pm

I do agree with the quote as highlighted by KarelXWB that Boeing privately regrets abandoning the 757s. I too know of people within Boeing who echoes the same sentiment.
 
CO953
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:56 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
The 757 would have been murdered by the A321 starting 10 years ago. And certainly now.

To be cost competitive with A321 would require re-designing the 757 to be just like the A321.

Just to take a big-picture, simple view of things, the cold fact is that a major American airline - American Airlines - is wholesale replacing a core portion of its fleet with the A321 as it rapidly retires the 752s. That has to be chalked up as a long-term loss for Boeing (and a big win for Airbus), any way you slice it.

[Edited 2016-05-30 11:59:01]
 
Part147
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:59 pm

Hey, Karel has been away for a little while, perhaps he hadn't noticed there have been lots of 757 threads in his absence!?

Plus, it's a newly published news story so it's fair game to talk about it, again     
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
 
747400sp
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RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting 9lflyguy (Reply 31):

I am so tired of people disrespecting other peoples post! !

If do not like 757 trends, then DO NOT READ THEM!!
Please keep your rude comments, to your self, and let the poster, enjoy their post!!
 
TSS
Posts: 3518
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting Faro (Reply 36):
What I find truly fascinating is the A.net obsession with the 757. I wonder is there a formal academic qualification of this phenomenon or is it just plain nostalgia?

Everyone does like a "hot rod", which in this case would be wide-body engines mounted from the factory on a narrow-body fuselage, so there's that aspect.

What I find humorous about these threads is how there is almost always someone who posts about "how much roomier the interior of the 757 was than a 737". Patently false, of course, since all 707, 727, 737, and 757 share the same cabin width and height and vary only by length as can be verified via the Boeing website.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
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Btblue
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:57 am

RE: Opinion: Boeing Made A Mistake Abandoning The 757

Mon May 30, 2016 7:25 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 45):

Adds to that commonality between the 321 and its siblings meaning more savings if smaller versions bought.

Its seriously a missed opportunity, one that's allowed the competition to take advantage of.

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