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Caryjack
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DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 9:44 pm

http://www.flightradar24.com/48.55,-126.07/8

A Delta Airlines B-747 flight DL167 is circling just off the SW coast of Vancouver Island. Any idea why?
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Cary
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 9:47 pm

They're reporting problems with both FMSs. The decision was made to return to SEA for MX.

Hard to cross the Pacific when you have no navigation systems.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 9:48 pm

Quoting Caryjack (Thread starter):
DL167 is circling just off the SW coast of Vancouver Island.

And does so at cruise altitude. It's descending.

http://www.flightradar24.com/DAL167/9df796b
 
kalvado
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 9:52 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 1):

Hard to cross the Pacific when you have no navigation systems.

[ cynic mode on] it is hard to get lost with few hundreds GPSes on board..
 
trex8
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 9:56 pm

Quoting kalvado (Reply 3):
[ cynic mode on] it is hard to get lost with few hundreds GPSes on board..

If you mean the cell phones the pax and crew have, they will have zero signal at altitude (or even sea level) over the pacific.
 
Caryjack
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 10:05 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 1):
They're reporting problems with both FMSs. The decision was made to return to SEA for MX.

Thanks....Were they dumping fuel? I don't think they'd burn off much in just 3 circles.
 
davescj
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 10:07 pm

I find it interesting that the DL website shows the flight as boarding (1705 CDT). But the flight is not estimated to leave until 1830 (CDT, 1630 SEA time).

I suppose they have to say something since the flight had departed and returned? I wonder how much time can be made up over the ocean? The arrival is current shown as being 3hrs 10 min delayed.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
kalvado
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 10:27 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 4):
If you mean the cell phones the pax and crew have, they will have zero signal at altitude (or even sea level) over the pacific.

They do have excellent GPS signal at altitude, and that would be the same over pacific. Now, most apps rely on downloading maps - but there are plenty of offline ones.
Navigating the great circle is a can of worms, though...
 
N1120A
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 10:57 pm

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 5):

Thanks....Were they dumping fuel? I don't think they'd burn off much in just 3 circles.

They were almost certainly dumping. It takes about 10 minutes to usually dump enough.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
B747forever
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting Caryjack (Thread starter):
A Delta Airlines B-747 flight DL167

Since when has that flight switched to the 747? Didnt know that SEA gets 747s from Delta.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
N1120A
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 11:32 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 9):
Since when has that flight switched to the 747? Didnt know that SEA gets 747s from Delta.

Looks like about a week now. No idea why.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
StuckInCA
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 11:41 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
No idea why

Need for the seats?
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Mon May 30, 2016 11:49 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
Need for the seats?

Seats and cargo. It runs through the end of June when the 777 takes over for July and the 747 returns in August.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 12:21 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 1):
They're reporting problems with both FMSs. The decision was made to return to SEA for MX.

Hard to cross the Pacific when you have no navigation systems.

How in the world did the possibly manage in the 707 and DC-8 era when there were no FMSs or GPS? I can't imagine.

The 747-400 has three IRUs and all radio navigation systems.
 
COSPN
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 12:27 am

There was LORAN back then it's gone now
 
32andBelow
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 4):
If you mean the cell phones the pax and crew have, they will have zero signal at altitude (or even sea level) over the pacific.

the crew surely has ipads with foreflight and GPS. They could easily get there, it's just not legal.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 2:43 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 5):

Thanks....Were they dumping fuel? I don't think they'd burn off much in just 3 circles.

They were almost certainly dumping. It takes about 10 minutes to usually dump enough.

I was to fly AMS-ATL on a 747 and we had an engine shut down just after takeoff and we dumped fuel for almost 30 minutes before we stopped.
 
goboeing
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:09 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 15):
the crew surely has ipads with foreflight and GPS.

No they don't.
 
lweber557
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:27 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 1):
Hard to cross the Pacific when you have no navigation systems.

Lindbergh didn't need fancy navigation systems to cross the ocean. Neither did Amelia Earhart..oh wait.. To soon?
FAA Licensed Aircraft Dispatcher
 
nikeherc
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:34 am

For much of the 1960s and 70s 707s and DC-8s used Doppler navigation. It only worked over water, but if the pilots guessed well as to the drift, it was pretty adequate. The would set a course and distance to the next way point along with the course and distance to the following way point. The system would count down the miles and automatically switch to the next course and distance. From then on as each waypoint was reached, they would simply input the next course and distance. It wasn't as good as inertial, but it worked and was available sooner for first generation jets. Prior to that, the used dead reckoning and LORAN.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
StuckInCA
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:39 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 12):
Seats and cargo. It runs through the end of June when the 777 takes over for July and the 747 returns in August.

My return from NRT last week was scheduled for a 767 and ended up on a 777. It seems busy as does pretty much everything into and out of SEA.
 
32andBelow
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:42 am

Quoting goboeing (Reply 17):
No they don't.

Wether they are issued or not I guarantee one of them had one.
 
goboeing
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:55 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 21):
Wether they are issued or not I guarantee one of them had one.

Not issued, and either way it's irrelevant as I think we can agree that the crew would not come to a consensus to navigate their 747-400 across the Pacific and into RJAA using one of the pilot's personal iPads as the sole source of navigation.
 
nikeherc
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 21):
Wether they are issued or not I guarantee one of them had one.

Yes, and if they used a device not issued and authorized for such a use by the airline, they wouldn't be flying for that airline much longer. I also think that flying a plane across the Pacific in violation of the MEL would also not be looked upon favorably by their employer.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
32andBelow
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting goboeing (Reply 22):
Not issued, and either way it's irrelevant as I think we can agree that the crew would not come to a consensus to navigate their 747-400 across the Pacific and into RJAA using one of the pilot's personal iPads as the sole source of navigation.

Read the thread. Someone said they had no way to navigate, another person said there were 200 GPSs on the airplane. I said that the crew most certainly could still navigate but it would not be legal.
 
goboeing
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 5:14 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 24):
I said that the crew most certainly could still navigate but it would not be legal.

No, this is what you said:

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 15):
the crew surely has ipads with foreflight and GPS.

Which is why I said:

Quoting goboeing (Reply 17):
No they don't.
 
d8s
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 5:50 am

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 19):

In the 60's and 70's the DC-8 (at least Untied DC-8's) had a sextant in the roof of the cockpit; celestial navigation was used over water.
 
CO953
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 6:53 am

Quoting d8s (Reply 26):
In the 60's and 70's the DC-8 (at least Untied DC-8's) had a sextant in the roof of the cockpit; celestial navigation was used over water.

That is pretty cool! I wonder if any photos exist? Great throwback device, to be mounted on a four-engine rocketship....
 
Bealine251
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 7:50 am

I recall talking to a retired BOAC/BA pilot who early in his career flew VC10s. He said part of his licence renewal included navigation with use of sextants. I'm sure he said there was a small periscope device in the plane to get a full view outside. Guess like everything modern technology takes over and we start to loose some good old fashioned skills.
 
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seat55a
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 8:08 am

Much later than VC10s and DC-8s:

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=747+sextant+port

[Edited 2016-05-31 01:09:07]
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 9:30 am

I'm old enough have used the sextant in the 707 as a Second Officer/Nav during the mid to late 60's at Pan Am. Combined with LORAN A it was good enough to keep you within the coast in tolerance of 25 miles. Dual Doppler with LORAN back up worked better. One poster suggested that it only worked over water but that is not true as the Bendix worked better over water but did work and was approved for land operations well. We used it for some west coast to Europe flights as long as we remained at lower latitudes.

The suggestion that you could safely navigate the North Pacific routes with your laptop GPS is funny. Amazing the stuff some people believe.
 
B747forever
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 9:46 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 12):

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
Need for the seats?

Seats and cargo. It runs through the end of June when the 777 takes over for July and the 747 returns in August.


Thanks for checking the schedule. Is this the first time DL schedule the 747 out of SEA?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 31):
Thanks for checking the schedule. Is this the first time DL schedule the 747 out of SEA?

I'm almost certain that a 744 was scheduled on SEA-NRT within the last three years or so.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 12:46 pm

The DL 747 has been in and out of SEA for a number of flights over the last 24 months.
 
nikeherc
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 12:56 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 30):

That's interesting. I was on a DC-8 from FRA to WRI back in the day when cockpit visits were allowed, at least on MAC charters. The captain explained the Doppler and stated that it only worked over water. He probably meant that they relied on it over water, but used conventional navaids over land.

[Edited 2016-05-31 05:56:50]
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 3:44 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 34):
The captain explained the Doppler and stated that it only worked over water. He probably meant that they relied on it over water, but used conventional navaids over land.

No question that it worked best over the ocean but it would develop drop outs if the sea was glassy. Generally speaking Doppler worked better on the North Atlantic than on say the South Pacific. There was a small Land/Sea toggle switch on the Bendix units that you could select depending on your routing.

[Edited 2016-05-31 09:21:23]
 
CPH-R
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 27):
That is pretty cool! I wonder if any photos exist? Great throwback device, to be mounted on a four-engine rocketship....
Quoting Bealine251 (Reply 28):
I recall talking to a retired BOAC/BA pilot who early in his career flew VC10s. He said part of his licence renewal included navigation with use of sextants. I'm sure he said there was a small periscope device in the plane to get a full view outside.
http://www.vc10.net/Technical/oddities.html has photos of both the sextant and the separate periscope as fitted on the VC-10.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 4:56 pm

Bad news Captain... my cell battery is at 3%!
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 8:43 pm

Found it. Thought I was losing it for a moment as I could recall exactly where this was located.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-CNA-1...=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
 
F9Animal
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 10:16 pm

I saw her land yesterday, obviously returning due to the mx. What a sight to see. Nothing beats the beauty of the 747 in my opinion. I do miss seeing her in the old NW livery, but..... She looks amazing in DL colors.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
bcbhokie
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Tue May 31, 2016 10:59 pm

Quoting gunsontheroof (Reply 32):

I'm almost certain that a 744 was scheduled on SEA-NRT within the last three years or so.

If nothing else, the 744 rotated through SEA-NRT as it went to Asia (HKG, I believe) for interior retrofits (new Y seats, flatbed J seats). Those swaps were scheduled as the 744 in the GDS, but as one-offs (e.g. day prior and after operated by A330 equipment).

Looking back on my flight history, I was onboard one such rotation on April 12, 2012.

[Edited 2016-05-31 16:00:54]
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:08 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 27):
Quoting d8s (Reply 26):
In the 60's and 70's the DC-8 (at least Untied DC-8's) had a sextant in the roof of the cockpit; celestial navigation was used over water.

That is pretty cool! I wonder if any photos exist? Great throwback device, to be mounted on a four-engine rocketship....

Periscopic sextant being used by navigator on a BOAC VC-10. It was very similar on 707s and DC-8s (until replaced by intertial navigation systems starting in the late 1960s).

http://i.stack.imgur.com/ygdu9.jpg
 
F9Animal
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
Periscopic sextant being used by navigator on a BOAC VC-10. It was very similar on 707s and DC-8s (until replaced by intertial navigation systems starting in the late 1960s).


Wow!!! I never knew this. Do you have any better pics of this thing? I tried to do a search, and didn't find anything. Thanks for sharing! I swear I learn something new from this site everyday.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
Periscopic sextant being used by navigator on a BOAC VC-10. It was very similar on 707s and DC-8s (until replaced by intertial navigation systems starting in the late 1960s).

I thought 747s had/have a sextant opening on the top of the flight deck also. Is that correct?
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:27 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 43):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
Periscopic sextant being used by navigator on a BOAC VC-10. It was very similar on 707s and DC-8s (until replaced by intertial navigation systems starting in the late 1960s).

I thought 747s had/have a sextant opening on the top of the flight deck also. Is that correct?

I don't think so but not sure. Can't see any need for it as all 747s had INS as far as I know, and INS had already replaced navigators on many international 707s and DC-8s by then.
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:25 am

Looking for a photo suggest you Google Kollsman as they manufactured most if not all the sextants onboard US carriers during that time period.

When they built the 1st 747-100's the jury was still out regarding the Delco Carousel INS package so Boeing had a plan rolled up and put away just in case for a nav station in the first 747-100's that included a position for a sextant mount. This design remained through the 747-400 al though never used as such. I believe the 747-8 was the first 747 that not have this "vent" installed. The BOAC/BA crews used the Kollsman sextant for polar ops and something else for other LRN ops as I recall. I don't recall the mfg. at this time. It had esveral enhancements for high latitude operations. The polar twilight remained a problem for operators as at certain times of the year neither the sun or stars were visible on the horizon. Most if not all high latitude navigation was done with Grid navigational charts. Boeing offeres a Grid option even today on the 747, 787 and 777 nav systems although there are no specific operating procedures for this enhancement. It generally conceded that there are 57 stars plus the Pole star that are suitable for cel nav but as a rule only 20 or 25 of these 57 are routinely used from operators approved list.

[Edited 2016-06-01 02:37:22]
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:46 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):

Don't think any operators were using an INS prior to the 747. Pan Am did a number of trial runs with both the Delco and Litton LT51 but as for replacing the Navs, the dual Bendix Doppler, backed up with a Loran A was much earlier and cost effective at eliminating the navigators from the flight decks of the 707 and DC8's. Not saying that there were no INS trials, just that it was not a routine operation.
 
DualQual
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:27 pm

I don't do any flying to Asia so I'm not sure what the rules/requirements are for the NorPac tracks. However, if they lost all FMS capability they likely can't enter MNPS/RNP airspace (I'm not familiar with the 744 systems to say what the fail safe level is for the nav performance of the airplane). So depending what they lost they might not have met the min nav performance specs for the airspace. If you haven't yet entered the airspace you now can't. In addition to what the airspace requires DL would have there own specific procedures and equipment requirements spelled out in their ops manuals (just like AA, UA, and everyone else does).
There's no known cure for stupid
 
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longhauler
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:52 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 46):
Don't think any operators were using an INS prior to the 747.

Air Canada's DC-8-53s and DC-8-63s were delivered with INS in 1968/1969 respectively. They always flew the Atlantic and Caribbean with only three pilots. (The DC-8-54JTs and DC-8-61s were not, but were eventually refitted. The DC-8-40s always flew with a Navigation Officer).

I don't recall the model number, but I believe it was called a Delco Carousel.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
BravoOne
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RE: DL 167 SEA-NRT Circling NW Of SEA

Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:34 pm

Thanks for that update. Was this prior to the 747 or about the same time the 747 first arrived in service.

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