Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 973
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon May 30, 2016 10:31 pm

Philippe Evain: Pilots want to "restore the balance" between Air France and KLM

The President of the National Union of Airline Pilots Philippe Evain said Monday to BFMTV the pilot strike voted by Air France aims to "restore the balance of production" between the French company and its KLM Dutch equivalent. "This group is based on a French and a Dutch pillar pillar for ten years, unfortunately we see that most of the activity is transferred to the Dutch side," he lamented. Philippe Evain therefore hopes that "this problem is addressed and the work will be relocated to France."

http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/vid...bres-air-france-et-klm-823866.html (French)


Not sure which work was ever moved from AF to KL, though it's true that KL grows much faster than AF (passenger traffic increase in Q1 8.8% vs 0.5%). I doubt the KL pilot union will support this strike at AF as they did last time.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon May 30, 2016 10:37 pm

Hahahahaha. This is a bit rich.
So much for European "unity" (and efficiency).
The truth revealed and exposed, once again.

[Edited 2016-05-30 15:41:48]
 
User avatar
reffado
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:47 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon May 30, 2016 10:38 pm

Isn't KL performing better than AF in part because, you know, their employees don't strike every other month? Just a thought.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1567
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon May 30, 2016 11:19 pm

Hmmmm....Striking in an attempt to regain opportunities lost because you are continually striking???? Yeah that makes sense.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9620
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 12:06 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 3):
Quoting Jetty (Thread starter):

Also, if AMS is growing more than PAR in traffic, I think you mostly have to blame passengers...and terrorists. You can't force them to put flights where demand is weaker.
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 12:12 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
Also, if AMS is growing more than PAR in traffic, I think you mostly have to blame passengers...and terrorists. You can't force them to put flights where demand is weaker.

And blame CDG for being a damn nightmare to transit. AMS is such an easy and smooth passenger experience that it's a no brainer.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 3):
Hmmmm....Striking in an attempt to regain opportunities lost because you are continually striking???? Yeah that makes sense.

I'm sure it makes perfect sense to AF's unions. IDIOTS.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8328
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 12:26 am

Guys, it's summer - they need extra holidays.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17576
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 12:37 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
And blame CDG for being a damn nightmare to transit.

Serious question: why is this the case? I honestly like CDG T1 and T2, but it always seems at T2 that everything is ramp loaded and sent via hell in a handbasket to connect. The buildings themselves seem quite functional...if they were used properly?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 11:21 am

Could this just be politics of the unions to "welcome the new CEO" and ensure that he is put in his place?
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 2:46 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 3):
Hmmmm....Striking in an attempt to regain opportunities lost because you are continually striking???? Yeah that makes sense.

The mentality is astounding. It doesn't even occur to the guy that it's warped logic.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Serious question: why is this the case? I honestly like CDG T1 and T2, but it always seems at T2 that everything is ramp loaded and sent via hell in a handbasket to connect. The buildings themselves seem quite functional...if they were used properly?

I've always wondered that too. It seems so perfectly set up for transfers. What's the cause and how have they not got a grip on this yet?
 
bennett123
Posts: 8946
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 8:49 pm

All they need is to march the customers across at gunpoint.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1183
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting reffado (Reply 2):


Isn't KL performing better than AF in part because, you know, their employees don't strike every other month? Just a thought.

Hahahahahaha +1
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 23581
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 9:00 pm

Quoting reffado (Reply 2):
Isn't KL performing better than AF in part because, you know, their employees don't strike every other month? Just a thought.

BINGO !   Maybe time for KLM to seek a real partner who operates with the same mentality and reliability. I always thought AF/KL was a disaster waiting to happen.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 9:02 pm

Perfect balance would be 50/50... with all the French strikes the board of directors might as well give it a try.
Attamottamotta!
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9620
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 9:17 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
And blame CDG for being a damn nightmare to transit. AMS is such an easy and smooth passenger experience that it's a no brainer.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Serious question: why is this the case? I honestly like CDG T1 and T2, but it always seems at T2 that everything is ramp loaded and sent via hell in a handbasket to connect. The buildings themselves seem quite functional...if they were used properly?
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 9):
I've always wondered that too. It seems so perfectly set up for transfers. What's the cause and how have they not got a grip on this yet?

At AMS if you are connecting outside the EU, you just go from one gate to the next. Inside EU you just pass through a portal between the EU part and the non-EU part. CDG seems to force everybody through their underground nightmare back to a centralized security checkpoint. Last time I think I took three trains and who knows how many escalators just to be two gates from my arrival. AMS was a mess when the remodeling was in full force. Seems the worst has passed.
 
rnj13198
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 8:34 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 10:35 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):

CDG seems to force everybody through their underground nightmare back to a centralized security checkpoint. Last time I think I took three trains and who knows how many escalators just to be two gates from my arrival.

I once transited CDG T2E>T2E, from the K gates to the M gates. Had to cross security again in Pier M, much to my bemusement. I had stepped off my (delayed) connection only to find my next flight was boarding a long way away. Cue some wonderful French attitude of not wanting to understand what I was saying in English at security (until I shouted with the best of my GCSE French knowledge) et voila! Typical CDG connection, from what I understand.
 
Nola
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 1:40 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 11:32 pm

The only thing I've seen online regarding dates was that the strike could happen this week.... Any additional information?

I'm flying JFK-MAD-CDG-JFK in late June. The MAD-CDG leg is on AF.... am I going to get stranded in MAD?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8328
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Tue May 31, 2016 11:58 pm

Quoting rnj13198 (Reply 15):
Had to cross security again in Pier M, much to my bemusement.

As you do in virtually every airport everywhere. What's so unusual about that?

Quoting rnj13198 (Reply 15):
wonderful French attitude of not wanting to understand what I was saying in English

Wonderful British attitude of expecting the world to speak English. How many languages do the security staff in Belfast speak? I keep forgetting that security the world over must be fluent in multiple languages as part of their minimum wage job.

Quoting rnj13198 (Reply 15):
I shouted

Typical British answer to everything - shout louder English. Straight from Fawlty Towers.

Quoting rnj13198 (Reply 15):
next flight was boarding a long way away

Big airport.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
Last time I think I took three trains and who knows how many escalators just to be two gates from my arrival.

I can't think of anywhere where you would take three trains to transit in Paris.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
At AMS if you are connecting outside the EU, you just go from one gate to the next.

That's changed now. Except if the airport is an approved EU security airport, You have to go to central security and back to the gates. Not as easy as it was. This is especially true if you are coming from long haul to short haul. The security queues and walks are terrible.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
AMS was a mess when the remodeling was in full force.

The remodelling was terrible.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4467
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:20 am

As usual the typical classic judgement about France by posters here.  


As to AF pilots, the main point really has nothing to do with KLM, but instead the disastrous social dialogue in the company, its obsession of dismantling jobs and insistence on chasing after the massive loss making Transavia model.

This latest collision with pilots is result of plans that effective June 1, the company decided to apply on its own productivity changes on crews which will see reduced compensation, for things such as night flights which company says will save up to EUR €40mil annually.

No formal strike notice has been issued, but union has legal mandate to issue work stoppage for atleast 6-days when it desires. Obviously in typical fashion company miscalculate as it would lose more €40mil with extended industrial action.


But strike at AF is only part of other ongoing public sector, transport protests and oil-sector strikes in France at the moment. 5 of 7 petrol refineries are striking with reduced petrol level in France, plus rail SNCF has its own industrial action. Also the Civil Aviation Authority (DGCA) expects is staff of 12,000 including controllers to also have strikes June 3-5.
mercure f-wtcc
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:27 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
Wonderful British attitude of expecting the world to speak English. How many languages do the security staff in Belfast speak? I keep forgetting that security the world over must be fluent in multiple languages as part of their minimum wage job.

I don't think it is unrealistic for international travelers to expect that airport staff speaks English as it (if you like it or not) the international language for international communications.
And i believe CDG pretends to be a international airport.  
 
cokepopper
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:28 am

you post this:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
As usual the typical classic judgement about France by posters here.  

but then you post this:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
But strike at AF is only part of other ongoing public sector, transport protests and oil-sector strikes in France at the moment. 5 of 7 petrol refineries are striking with reduced petrol level in France, plus rail SNCF has its own industrial action. Also the Civil Aviation Authority (DGCA) expects is staff of 12,000 including controllers to also have strikes June 3-5.

confirming most perceptions.

The strikes and the constant threat of strikes is what keeps me away from CDG.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4467
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 20):
but then you post this:

Its called a democracy, where peoples voices are heard.

There is broader unhappiness with existing government and impotent actions which has left nation in malaise.

Its appropriate people voice their opinions and take actions.
mercure f-wtcc
 
alfa164
Posts: 3020
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:44 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
As usual the typical classic judgement about France by posters here.

Judgments are generally earned, not assigned just randomly.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
But strike at AF is only part of other ongoing public sector, transport protests and oil-sector strikes in France at the moment.

,,,and that is how those judgments are earned.

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 19):
And i believe CDG pretends to be a international airport.

   And the employees there pretend they are working.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:56 am

Quoting Nola (Reply 16):
The only thing I've seen online regarding dates was that the strike could happen this week.... Any additional information?

I'm flying JFK-MAD-CDG-JFK in late June. The MAD-CDG leg is on AF.... am I going to get stranded in MAD?

No. This is merely one of the pilot unions and a more militant one at that. Its important to know that in Europe, and especially in France, there are multiple unions for the same work group and workers get to decide which union they want (sorta like proclaiming yourself a Bernie democrat vs. a Hillary democrat but you're still part of the Democratic party). This is completely different from the US where one union is formed and is the exclusive bargaining agent for the designated group of employees.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12491
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:20 am

No greater incentive/advertisement for the ME3 in Europe than hometown airlines with a reputation for striking, whether earned or not.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:04 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 24):
No greater incentive/advertisement for the ME3 in Europe than hometown airlines with a reputation for striking, whether earned or not.

Tell that the French unions which strike more in year then for example the Dutch unions in a century (a little bit overstated but that is how it feels). No wonder that KLM is growing a lot faster than AF and is earning more money for the group, which is also caused while AF is constraint by less modern and inflexible legislation regarding working conditions. These regulations were also a compromise forced by those same French unions......  

The French unions and their members should wake up to reality and start working again to face competition. The world is a lot bigger than France alone. Otherwise soon there won't be an AF to compete with other airlines. Then it is taken over and (especially to French standards) extremely harsh restructuring measures by the new owner will be forced upon them.
 
lexer
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:21 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:25 pm

The whole concept of 'restoring balance' in a dynamic environment is idiotic, where all things change, all the time. It completely misunderstands the competitive environment in which AF operates.

The idea is based on nostalgia and a misplaced sense of entitlement. This attitude is not a good indicator for the ability of AF to reform itself and keep up.

[Edited 2016-06-01 05:33:04]
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:49 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
the disastrous social dialogue


... and of course it is the management's fault... Right ?

May I just ask you a very few quedtions I'd really like you toà address and respond to :

1/- Which is the only personnel categorythat did not fulfill their agreed productivity improvement efforts ( some 20% below the agreement, IIRC ).

2/- Which is the only category of personnel that went on their longest strike ever - and cost 500 million € to the airline - because they did not want Transavia to grow ? (by the way, the Dutch did not say no to outside bases- in Germany, for instance - and their T Holland is growing ).

3/- Which was the only category of personnel opposed to Hop operating bigger planes ? ( over 110 seats, it's their majesties' privilege ).

4/- Which was the only category of personnel opposed to any growth for Transavia ?

5/- Which is the only category of personnel demanding a priority for Transavia hires ( of course not on Transavia salary scheme ) ?

6/- Which was the only category of personnel demanding a cap to the KLM growth ? ( talk of common interests and solidarity    ).

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
dismantling jobs and insistence on chasing after the massive loss making Transavia model.


Before you post such an uninformed statement, read the latest financial reports : Transavia is progressing in fact better than planned... and if you read the points # 3, 4, 5 and 6 above, tell us who is responsible for the job situation ?

We are, once again, facing a wildcat strike by their ugly majesties, and as usual, the real reason is hidden : here they -again - talk about growth unfairly profitting KLM because they cannot say that they strike to protest the 10% abatement on night hours... the reason : for AF, it is just an adjustment on the 20% productivity improvement, which was contracted and not realised... AF sued them and won the judgment... striking on this would be a breach of the law as AF was entitled to use whatever means they wanted to achieve that improvement.

Quoting N717TW (Reply 23):
Its important to know that in Europe, and especially in France, there are multiple unions for the same work group

... and you're not even half-way to reality : France is the EU country with the lowest union memlbership rate : some 10 to 15 % of the worki force... but employees elect the union they think would represent them the best.;;; a system that, of course, means that these unions are all the time in a pre-election period : Nobody wants to be seen as weak, not militant enough... That explains 90 % of the industrial actions in this country.
I have to say that -the pilots are a bit of an exception : their rate of unionisation is closer to 80% and probably 100% for the captains : the main reason is legal defence both in law courts and in the airline disciplinary committees.

By the way, I am on record as the only one on this forum pointing at the fact that KLM is growing much faster than AF and has already done so way above the 30% share of the traffic / benefits... of the group.
That is certainly not due to KL's better management / personnel / environment / productivity... but to a very definite plan from the group management to promote growth where there can be profits... and the France tax system is not condusive to airline profits ... on the contrary.

That the SNPL is suddenly realising that there is a huge risk of getting passed over by the Dutch looks very much like their ugly majesties' ceremonial wake up call.

[Edited 2016-06-01 06:58:06]
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23830
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:14 pm

Well one of the things to consider here, and give credence to the AF pilot concerns, is the fact that like has been played out in the U.S before, the AFKL management is playing games by moving activity between group airlines.

Playing one employee group against another is hardly a new trick, and one that eventually could be very detrimental.

Considering the France generates almost 60-70% of groups passenger revenue for the last half decade, its probably quite appropriate that likewise AF and the French side of the house using French staff be significantly larger than Dutch side.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Before you would make a fool of yourself, read the lmatrest financial reports : Transavia is progressing in fact better than p)lanned.

   

According to their 2015 results, Transavia continued to lose money, and their 2015 loss earnings was merely EUR 1mil better than 2014. Hardly an improvement, or progress.

Also in 2016Q1 Transavia also had the largest loss in the group. Quite appalling considering its relative smaller scale.

EBITA profit by major business unit was:
AFR - EUR€ 150mil
KLM - EUR€ 118mil
TRANSAVIA - EUR€ (-52mil)
CARGO - EUR€ (-42mil)
MRO - EUR€ 85mil


Air France/KLM Post Q1 Loss (by mercure1 May 4 2016 in Civil Aviation)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18125
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting lexer (Reply 26):
The whole concept of 'restoring balance' in a dynamic environment is idiotic, where all things change, all the time. It completely misunderstands the competitive environment in which AF operates.

The idea is based on nostalgia and a misplaced sense of entitlement. This attitude is not a good indicator for the ability of AF to reform itself and keep up.

Exactly. Growth will happen at the more profitable entity. Until AF is consistently profitable, there will be little/no growth.

To others:. One cannot be 'heard' to profitability. Think from the customers ' perspective. Convince us this strike has meaning.

I will be flying to Paris. I have yet to book my tickets. Convince me to fly AF vs. all my other options.

For example, I paid $800 for a hotel last weekend. At first I was *not* happy with the price. I am now ecstatic about that hotel as it set the standard for traveling with children. Now I understand why reservations are so difficult and prices were raised $100/night. Airlines are the same. Convince your customers this strike is worth it. Convince me to fly AF despite the strike risks with two young children.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:38 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Considering the France generates almost 60-70% of groups passenger revenue for the last half decade, its probably quite appropriate that likewise AF and the French side of the house using French staff be significantly larger than Dutch side.

I have no problem with your comment perse but going with that logic Apple should probably bring more of the work back to North America as well then.

I thought it (EU, companies merging, partnerships etc etc) was all about efficiency and the lowest common denominator?   

There's a saying: You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
Nola
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 1:40 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting N717TW (Reply 23):

Quoting Nola (Reply 16):
The only thing I've seen online regarding dates was that the strike could happen this week.... Any additional information?

I'm flying JFK-MAD-CDG-JFK in late June. The MAD-CDG leg is on AF.... am I going to get stranded in MAD?

No. This is merely one of the pilot unions and a more militant one at that. Its important to know that in Europe, and especially in France, there are multiple unions for the same work group and workers get to decide which union they want (sorta like proclaiming yourself a Bernie democrat vs. a Hillary democrat but you're still part of the Democratic party). This is completely different from the US where one union is formed and is the exclusive bargaining agent for the designated group of employees.

So does this union represent only long-haul pilots, or short haul? Or is it that two pilots flying a plane could belong to completely different unions, such that a strike by one would ground the aircraft for not having necessary crew even though the other was not on strike?
 
TYCOON
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):

Bravo! Merci beaucoup... Thank you Pihero for your eloquence and simple stating of the facts. The AF pilots (and their union) are obstructionist and acting like spoiled aristocrats.
Management has been trying to improve the airline's performance... as they have been successful improving the airline's services. On a pure service level, AF is a completely different company today than it was just two years ago. I am astounded (as a very frequent flyer) by the huge improvements to service, on-board, on the ground or on the phone! AF is now my prefered trans-atlantic carrier as its new business and first class is way ahead of its European competitors. This is part of what the Juniac et al management team has brought to the airline and their passengers.

Regarding CDG, I don't understand what everyone is talking about personally. It is my home airport, so it is rare that I transfer through it, but I never get what is so confusing or difficult. Connections between AF flights or Skyteam flights are as simple here as elsewhere. And as pointed out by someone else, when connecting in LHR, FRA, AMS or MAD you have to go through security again...
And on the security/employee point, I find CDG (and ORY for that matter) employees to be amongst the friendliest anywhere. Even though I speak fluent French, when they see my US passport, they immediately address me in English... and even when I respond in French sometimes they continue to speak in English as, in their words, "they need the practice".

I cross through airport security checks more often than I cross the front door of my home and I much prefer the whole ground experience (security check, passport control, etc...) in CDG or ORY, than LHR, FRA, AMS, FCO, ARN or any US airport. Airport personnel are way friendlier in CDG than in LHR... and I certainly don't have a language barrier in either!!! LHR is a nightmare compared to CDG... and LHR is my 3rd most frequented airport (unfortunately) after CDG and ORY.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
As you do in virtually every airport everywhere. What's so unusual about that?

Well not really, only when a different organisation has responsibility for security, hence UK airport to UK airport or US airport to US airport involves no security check on transfer, whereas Irish to UK does.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23830
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting N717TW (Reply 23):
No. This is merely one of the pilot unions and a more militant one at that.

SNPL the ALPA of France and AF main union that represents 68% of the pilot group has also "overwhelmingly" voted for strike action for "more than 6 days", to protest the wage cuts the company is implementing on June 1st

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/05...468161/Air-France-strike-Euro-2016
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...atens-to-disrupt-soccer-tournament
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting Nola (Reply 31):
So does this union represent only long-haul pilots, or short haul? Or is it that two pilots flying a plane could belong to completely different unions, such that a strike by one would ground the aircraft for not having necessary crew even though the other was not on strike?

Its the later. Also, the Europeans (and French in particular) have these odd (from my perspective as an American labor guy) planned/scheduled strikes. So if there is actually going to be a strike, it is a) usually announced well in advance and b) confinded to a few days. The impact is usually small (see, e.g. the several LH strikes over the past 8 months that have lead to isolated cancellations). An all-out, prolonged American style strike is very usual--it did happen last fall at AF and had a hugely negative effect on the company....something that both AF and the unions are likely to stop short of since it could cause way too much damage to the longterm health of the company.


Regarding your specific travel question: you are unlikely to be stranded in MAD. There are options to get you home even if there is a strike that causes your flight to be delayed...DL, via AMS on KL, even on partner UX. Also keep in mind that an industrial action puts the problem on AF, so worse-case is your travel is ticked over to IB or another non-AF-KL/Skyteam airline.

[Edited 2016-06-01 12:59:40]
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
According to their 2015 results, Transavia continued to lose money, and their 2015 loss earnings was merely EUR 1mil better than 2014. Hardly an improvement, or progress

As usual, a very quick ap)praisal cum judgement : Wasn't 2015 a particularly difficult year for AF ? ( think : two days of terrorists' attacks and two weeks of strikes ) I don't really think one could base one's argument on 2015.
...and yes, Transavia is progressing quite nicely : we should see the first profits soon, once the growth has been established and , at last, the unit costs come really down.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 32):
The AF pilots (and their union) are obstructionist and acting like spoiled aristocrats.

Yep ! and please note that nobody has taken my gauntlet.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
the AFKL management is playing games by moving activity between group airlines.

You really haven't got it, have you ?
ahhhhhhh! clichés and prejudice !
The group is simply investing in the safest of financial havens they could find... and it's the Netherlands for the time being.
( On the same subject, I have been - and still am - of the opinion that we should , like the UTA merger have KL *buy* AF and register the whole lot in Amsrterdam... that's an immediate one billion € in the coffers ( tax differentials, disappearance of silly / unfair burdens like the famed *Chirac tax* which was supposed to help vaccination in Africa ( have you heard of it during the Ebola crisis last year ?) and scandalous rip offs from the French airport authorities. )
Contrail designer
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:24 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 21):
Its called a democracy, where peoples voices are heard.

There is broader unhappiness with existing government and impotent actions which has left nation in malaise.

Its appropriate people voice their opinions and take actions.

That's worked wonders for Greece.
What the...?
 
sirdanilot
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:23 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:26 pm

I would also prefer not to transfer in Paris when booking anything. Firstly, because to me the hopover from AMS to Paris seems so incredibly short, hardly worth sitting in the plane for. Of course London is even shorter but at least you are crossing a body of water that is difficult to cross otherwise. And secondly because there are so many strikes, odds are significant that you'll be stuck in Paris for a day. Even when not flying AF, what if the airport personel decides to strike?

To my knowledge I have never flown AF (maybe once as a small child, don't remember it anymore) and I am not intending to unless their fares are very very low, which is never the case.
 
mozart
Posts: 2154
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:32 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):
And blame CDG for being a damn nightmare to transit. AMS is such an easy and smooth passenger experience that it's a

How so? You make a declaration but are unable to substantiate it. CDG has completely overhauled its terminal structure and security procedures in the past couple of years (precisely to be as simple as AMS). There is as much or as little security involved as in AMS. Except that in AMS since the introduction of central security wait times are very long.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 9):
I've always wondered that too. It seems so perfectly set up for transfers. What's the cause and how have they not got a grip on this yet

Well, they habe. Agree with you it used to be a dysfunctional nightmare but it works very well now.

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):
At AMS if you are connecting outside the EU, you just go from one gate to the next. Inside EU you just pass through a portal between the EU part and the non-EU part. CDG seems to force everybody through their underground nightmare back to a centralized security checkpoint. Last time I think I took three trains and who knows how many escalators just to be two gates from my arrival. AMS was a mess when the remodeling was in full force. Seems the worst has passed.

Uninformed gibberish.

When you transfer from ANY airport from a "clean" country (most EU states, Switzerland, Iceland, Norway) to ANYWHERE there is NO security control, neither in AMS nor in CDG. When connecring from a non-clean country (all except the ones mentioned above) to ANYWHERE there are security controls. Both AMS and CDG have centralized them, there are no more security checkpoints at gates as AMS used to have them until some time ago in the non-Schengen area. Also, at CDG there are priority lines everywhere for First/Business Class/Elite card holders that work quite well.

I presume you have not traveled through AMS or CDG recently which explains why you are clueless and write uninformed things like that. Check any frequent traveler discussion forum on the internet, and you find that the one European airport that has most people complain about security is LHR, because there even when connecting from EU to anywhere you have to go through security, and security agents are among the least pleasant around.

Quoting rnj13198 (Reply 15):
once transited CDG T2E>T2E, from the K gates to the M gates. Had to cross security again in Pier M, much to my bemusement. I had stepped off my (delayed) connection only to find my next flight was boarding a long way away.

SOrry, don't get your point. What exactly is it that you are complaining about? The fact that you had to go through security? Well, you arrived at 2E, so from a non-clean country, which means you had to go through security. The fact that the gate for your connecting flight was some distance away is normal at a big airport like CDG. Even for connections between flights on the same airline, ry Amsterdam from the F gates to the C gates, Frankfurt from A40 to C15, LHR from the C satellite to the A gates in Terminal 5 or even better from T5 to T3. Normal. If you want shorter distances, try Zurich or Munich, which are smaller.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
As usual the typical classic judgement about France by posters here.

..in response to which you regurgitate the union proparganda... doesn't exactly elevate the quality of the debate.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
As to AF pilots, the main point really has nothing to do with KLM, but instead the disastrous social dialogue in the company, its obsession of dismantling jobs and insistence on chasing after the massive loss making Transavia model.

"Disastrous social dialogue" - you mean people lynching members of management and justifying a criminal offense by the "violence" (sic) of being told that there is a new strategy? Not sure those wild mobsters are even able to dialogue.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
But strike at AF is only part of other ongoing public sector, transport protests and oil-sector strikes in France at the moment. 5 of 7 petrol refineries are striking with reduced petrol level in France, plus rail SNCF has its own industrial action. Also the Civil Aviation Authority (DGCA) expects is staff of 12,000 including controllers to also have strikes June 3-5.

Which does not make it one bit more justified.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 21):
Its called a democracy, where peoples voices are heard.

Oh, c'mon, spare us that democracy BS!

According to numbers by the European Trade Union Institute France is the country with the second highest number of working days lost to industrial action in the period 2009-2013. Per 1,000 employees, 171 days are lost to strikes, 110% more than the number 3 ranked country. It is 12 days in Germany, 9 days in the Netherlands, 1 day in Switzerland. Apparently one can have a great democracy without going on strike.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 21):
There is broader unhappiness with existing government and impotent actions which has left nation in malaise.

And in that nation I am yet to find more than 20 people able to articulate in a coherent fashion what it is that is actually wrong with the proposed law. Even more so after it has been voided of most of its original content.

And I really wonder why people that are not even affected by the proposed labour law are on strike against the law (people working at power stations, in ATC, at SNCF... the latter two claim also to have other reasons, but they also strike against the labour law, although it doesn't even apply to them)

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 21):
Its appropriate people voice their opinions and take actions.

As illustrated above, there are liberal democracies with freedom of speech and everything you want but without people going wild, destroying shops and squares and putting fire to police cars with people in them. So, no, it is not appropriate "to take action"

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
.

Pihero, Amen to everything you wrote. Thanks.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
According to their 2015 results, Transavia continued to lose money, and their 2015 loss earnings was merely EUR 1mil better than 2014. Hardly an improvement, or progress.

He did not say that. He said:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Transavia is progressing in fact better than planned

Better than planned is not the same thing as making big improvements. You may in fact realise that startups like Transavia often make losses in their early years.

This is not to defend the current Transavia strategy, I think it is a failure, but that is mainly due to the AF pilots blocking its proper development.

Quoting Nola (Reply 31):
So does this union represent only long-haul pilots, or short haul?

Both.

Quoting Nola (Reply 31):
Or is it that two pilots flying a plane could belong to completely different unions, such that a strike by one would ground the aircraft for not having necessary crew even though the other was not on strike?
Quoting TYCOON (Reply 32):
And as pointed out by someone else, when connecting in LHR, FRA, AMS or MAD you have to go through security again..

With some notable differences though...

1) LHR: you have to go through security when connecting from anywhere except another UK airport
2) AMS and MAD, no security when connecting from Schengen and other clean countries in Europe
3) in FRA (and ZRH and MUC) on top of the countries included in 2), arrving from the USA and transferring to another flight to any destination there is no security control. So, when flying USA-anywhere it is easiest to connect in FRA, MUC and ZRH

Quoting sirdanilot (Reply 38):

I would also prefer not to transfer in Paris when booking anything. Firstly, because to me the hopover from AMS to Paris seems so incredibly short, hardly worth sitting in the plane for. Of course London is even shorter but at least you are crossing a body of water that is difficult to cross otherwise. And secondly because there are so many strikes, odds are significant that you'll be stuck in Paris for a day. Even when not flying AF, what if the airport personel decides to strike?

OK. You've almost never flown AF. You prefer the additional hassle of LHR to less hassle of CDG. Hmmm... to each his own, but most people would not find these argumens very compelling.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8328
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:55 am

Transit in Paris is a dream. From landing to the next flight within an hour, with enough time for a lounge visit and a shower.

Try that in Heathrow.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:33 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 40):

Transit in Paris is a dream. From landing to the next flight within an hour, with enough time for a lounge visit and a shower.

Try that in Heathrow.

Paris must be a connecting passengers dream:

Meanwhile at other major airports:

landing to arrival at gate 0.05
arrival at gate to doors open and disembark 0.05
Transit to main terminal area 0.05
Transit to departure gate 0.05
Last boarding call to departure 0.15

Total 0.35

Doesn't leave much time to relax in the lounge and have a shower.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1746
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:38 am

Could someone please explain to me how Transavia and HOP! are supposed to work? I've never been a believer in the airline-within-an-airline concept, especially after it failed multiple times in the US.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:53 am

Quoting intotheair (Reply 42):
Could someone please explain to me how Transavia and HOP! are supposed to work? I've never been a believer in the airline-within-an-airline concept, especially after it failed multiple times in the US.

I am not going to comment about HOP!, but Transavia is the result of an aquisition by KLM years ago. Transavia used to be the main Dutch Holiday airline and has is now moving itself clearly as an LCC airline (with a clear focus on holiday destinations, but that's obvious with most LCC's in Europe). For KLM to answer to the growing demand of low fares, Transavia is their answer, possibly to protect the image of KLM somehow.

In that case it's not so strange, as LH is doing the same thing with Eurowings and it could just be an interesting transition to a more cost-effective short-haul operation that ultimately will replace KLM/AF/LH in the long run. That's also what frightens the pilots so much (it's all about the money and working hours).
 
mozart
Posts: 2154
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:22 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 43):
In that case it's not so strange, as LH is doing the same thing with Eurowings and it could just be an interesting transition to a more cost-effective short-haul operation that ultimately will replace KLM/AF/LH in the long run.

And IAG has Vueling.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1746
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:49 pm

Okay, fair enough, though I seriously doubt the economics are in place to enable HOP! to use regional aircraft profitably. Nobody has ever really used regional aircraft in an LCC operation successfully, other than perhaps Flybe.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
TYCOON
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting intotheair (Reply 45):

But HOP! is not really an LCC... it is the regional airline within the airline, like Horizon to Alaska, Lufthansa Regional to Lufthansa, etc... It is to service routes too thin or with added frequency to service the main hubs. Or fly point-to-point outside of hubs...
HOP! is not necessarily targeting leisure travel the way Transavia does...alot of business travellers can be found on the HOP! flights during the work week.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Thank you to Mozart in post #39 and to Pihero in post #27. I could not agree more with you.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4467
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:31 pm

Strike notice has been served

The SNPL and SPAF pilot unions have jointly announced work stoppage from June 11-14.

This likely first of several actions to be taken in coming periods.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:57 am

"Cabin staff Air France will strike against cost saving measures."

Article states as strike period "july 27th untill augustus 2nd".

(In Dutch)
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...wil-staken-tegen-kostenbesparingen

Pilot and cabin staff strikes seem imminent in the busiest time of the year.
If you are the boss of Air France, what can you do?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos