thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:34 am

KLM is developing as all people support each other in difficult times.
AF is not able to grow that fast as the people refuse to cooperate in making the company future proof.
The French solution, go on strike again.
You have to love the French logic.  
 
Nola
Posts: 337
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 1:40 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:32 am

Quoting N717TW (Reply 35):
Quoting N717TW (Reply 35):
Regarding your specific travel question: you are unlikely to be stranded in MAD. There are options to get you home even if there is a strike that causes your flight to be delayed...DL, via AMS on KL, even on partner UX. Also keep in mind that an industrial action puts the problem on AF, so worse-case is your travel is ticked over to IB or another non-AF-KL/Skyteam airline.

Thanks. From your post and some of the later ones regarding the dates of strike, it looks like I will be okay.

I'm glad to see that as (a) I'd prefer not to be stranded in Madrid and (b) I'd hate to lose the mqm's!
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4112
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:52 am

AFAIK, the issue at Air France boils down to this: Pilots have not achieved the cost-savings measures asked for by management (and initially agreed to by the pilots) but results have improved significantly nevertheless, in large part due to lower fuel costs and in smaller part due to higher revenue than forecast. Management still want pilots to deliver on the cost-savings measures agreed to, but pilots are resisting since management's overall goals were achieved.

The other issue is how management is going about imposing cost-savings after the courts gave them permission to do so. The measures affect mostly long-haul pilots, with more seniority and more influence within union leadership.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
As to AF pilots, the main point really has nothing to do with KLM, but instead the disastrous social dialogue in the company, its obsession of dismantling jobs and insistence on chasing after the massive loss making Transavia model.

Well, an union official did say that Air France should have up to 18 additional wide-bodies to catch up to KLM's growth. I think he was quoted in La Tribune even.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
Until AF is consistently profitable, there will be little/no growth.

It's a purely internal benchmark though. Tax differences between France and The Netherlands being what they are, publicly available figures are unreliable. Management shifts revenue and expense between Air France and KLM to maximize profits in the Netherlands where it is taxed at a far lower rate than in France (the popular example is fuel hedges: losses are booked to Air France, gains to KLM).

[Edited 2016-06-04 23:08:16]
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18142
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:43 pm

I hope the strikers realize this is costing AF customers. I just drove relatives to LAX for their European trip. What I found out on the drive is that 8 of them were planning to fly AF for the trip. All 8 switched (3 to KL and 5 to DL). All business class.... I was amused at no loss to Skyteam. The group just switched which cities were visited. B&B's in Scotland are benefitting at the expense of hotels in Paris.

While AF/KL will do ok, it switches the business case to KL expansion.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 52):
It's a purely internal benchmark though.

Is it? Smart BoDs shift growth to the profit centers. All indications are that KL is truly more profitable than AF. Do you have links that show otherwise?

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:01 pm

It's a purely internal benchmark though. Tax differences between France and The Netherlands being what they are, publicly available figures are unreliable. Management shifts revenue and expense between Air France and KLM to maximize profits in the Netherlands where it is taxed at a far lower rate than in France (the popular example is fuel hedges: losses are booked to Air France, gains to KLM)

This may be partly true but it is very clear that KLM is much more successful in reducing cost with the cooperation of (almost) all staff and unions involved and therefore are able to grow and produce more profit.
Unless AF staff and specially the unions realizes this they will never create a healthy and profitable company.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4112
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
All indications are that KL is truly more profitable than AF. Do you have links that show otherwise?

I didn't intend to dispute that KLM is more profitable than Air France. My point is "consistently profitable" is not a reliable benchmark for us, the public. The Air France-KLM group will always shift as many expenses as necessary to its French operations to maximize profits reported in The Netherlands due to a more advantageous corporate tax rate. Air France might be profitable, now or in the future, on an operational basis and yet appear to be making a loss. That is why I wrote the benchmark you suggested is a purely internal one. Only management knows exactly when or whether Air France is "consistently profitable."

All we, the public, know is that all indications are KLM is more profitable than Air France, nothing more.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 52):
AFAIK, the issue at Air France boils down to this: Pilots have not achieved the cost-savings measures asked for by management (and initially agreed to by the pilots) but results have improved significantly nevertheless, in large part due to lower fuel costs and in smaller part due to higher revenue than forecast.



So while all the other workers of the company have already seen what they have agreed on implemented by the company, the pilots don't do the part they promised because fuel is now cheaper?

So everyone did what they said they would, ground workers, baggage staff, the fuel-men etc, but the guys with the best contracts don't want to keep their word. I don't get why the tens of thousends workers of air france don't go to were the pilots prepare their flights and demonstrate there. The pilots are really taking the piss on everyone.

In Holland its the other way around. They pilots have already agreed and implemented their part for up to and including 2018. As the best payed employees, they wanted to show the rest that everyone must do their part.

The AF pilots still haven't done their 2015 part.

[Edited 2016-06-05 10:49:16]
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:42 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 49):
If you are the boss of Air France, what can you do?

Firing them all is the best solution. It's reached the point where it's pretty much the only real solution.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23834
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:13 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
I hope the strikers realize this is costing AF customers. I just drove relatives to LAX for their European trip. What I found out on the drive is that 8 of them were planning to fly AF for the trip. All 8 switched (3 to KL and 5 to DL). All business class.... I was amused at no loss to Skyteam. The group just switched which cities were visited. B&B's in Scotland are benefitting at the expense of hotels in Paris.

Well as far as the airlines are concerned since they are in a JV does not matter if your relatives fly AF, DL or KL. Money goes into the same pot.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 56):
The AF pilots still haven't done their 2015 part.

I really don't get this notion that there is an expectation they must somehow give up pay or benefits, especially when its outside of formal contract negotiations.
Even agreements in a formal contract is by mutual agreement of the parties and employees retain right of strike.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 57):
We also know that KLM has better employees and AF has a high percentage of worthless employees.
The sooner these people and their colleagues are unemployed, the better off everyone will be:

   

Thanks for the valued comments.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
WesternDC6B
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:45 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 9):
I've always wondered that too. It seems so perfectly set up for transfers. What's the cause and how have they not got a grip on this yet?

I don't know which terminal is which, as I have only transited CDG once. (It was also the only time in all the years I have been flying, the my bag was mishandled, but that's for another time.) My observation in coming off a flight from the States and then having to change to a flight down to Madrid was this: I have never seen more twists and turns in my life, not to mention the number of escalators (moving stairs). Who laid this place out?!?  

On the topic - the strike - AF seems to be in a race with LH to see who can strike the most, and who can drive the most passengers away. I just don't see the logic of it.   
Remember: Only one dwarf in seven is Happy.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18142
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:47 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 55):
All we, the public, know is that all indications are KLM is more profitable than Air France, nothing more.

Which will determine where growth occurs. I can accept there are some funds shifting, but this strike is over 'balance with KL.' There is no 'balance with KL' if KL is more profitable, it means the growth should go to AMS. So my point is made. The matter of degree does not matter.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
Well as far as the airlines are concerned since they are in a JV does not matter if your relatives fly AF, DL or KL. Money goes into the same pot.

Yes, why I'm amused.    But I need an education on the JVs. The DL flights are not to the cities I believe are in the JV, so please educate me:
The joint venture is structured around 7 major hubs: Amsterdam-Schiphol, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis, New York-JFK and Rome-Fumicino, as well as Cincinnati, Lyon, Milan, Memphis and Salt Lake City.

Its geographical scope covers routes between Canada, the United States, Mexico and Europe, as well as routes linking Amsterdam to India and North America and Tahiti.


http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/the-company/joint-venture/

Are DL flights to the UK included? For those are the flights my relatives took. I thought it was a JV focused around the hubs, not 100% of all TATL flights... Please educate me, I honestly do not know the limits of the JV.

LIghtsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:03 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
Well as far as the airlines are concerned since they are in a JV does not matter if your relatives fly AF, DL or KL. Money goes into the same pot.

Maybe you are correct but i was under the impression that while they are JV both subsidiaries kept their own financially accountability and the profit remains within the subsidiary and is not automatically transferred to the JV.
And i can fully understand that the JV oversight transfers the growth to the subsidiary which has the best growth potential and the least of problems which is very clearly KLM.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:14 am

The AF/KL May 2016 performance data are out, these indicate that AF continues to perform below KL:

January - May 2016:

AIR FRANCE:

2016 2015 Variation
Passengers carried (‘000s) 19,871 vs 19,805 +0.3%
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 55,876 vs 55,565 +0.6%
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 66,833 vs 67,189 (-0.5%)
Load factor (%) 83.6% vs 82.7% +0.9

Long-haul
Passengers carried (‘000s) 6,137 vs 6,059 +1.3%
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 44,937 vs 44,614 +0.7%
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 52,732 vs 52,867 (-0.3%)
Load factor (%) 85.2% vs 84.4% +0.8

Short and Medium-haul
Passengers carried (‘000s) 13,735 vs 13,746 (-0.1%)
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 10,940 vs 10,952 (-0.1%)
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 14,101 vs 14,322 (-1.5%)
Load factor (%) 77.6% vs 76.5% +1.1%

KLM:

Passengers carried (‘000s) 11,760 vs 10,924 +7.6%
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 38,055 vs 36,179 +5.2%
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 44,348 vs 43,033 +3.1%
Load factor (%) 85.8% vs 84.1% +1.7

Long-haul
Passengers carried (‘000s) 4,059 vs 3,894 +4.2%
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 31,452 vs 30,193 +4.2%
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 36,370 vs 35,334 +2.9%
Load factor (%) 86.5% vs 85.5% +1.0

Short and Medium-haul
Passengers carried (‘000s) 7,701 vs 7,030 +9.5%
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 6,603 vs 5,985 +10.3%
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 7,977 vs 7,699 +3.6%
Load factor (%) 82.8% vs 77.7% +5.0

General Conclusions:
- KLM production is up 3% vs AF down -0.5%
- KLM sales are up +7% vs AF plus +0.3%
- KLM load factor is 85.8% up +1.7% vs AF 83.6% +0.9%
- So labour unrest and events in Paris are reflected in the AF's performance.

http://www.airfranceklm.com/sites/de...mmuniques/traffic_may16_va_def.pdf
 
mozart
Posts: 2154
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Quoting Jetty (Thread starter):
Quoting factsonly (Reply 63):

The AF/KL May 2016 performance data are out, these indicate that AF continues to perform below KL:

Be careful what you read into these results. AFKL is a holding company with two operating businesses, between which it can shift many costs and revenues. It is impossible from the numbers you quote to conclude that KL is the better performing company. It may very well be, and I do not claim the opposite. I just claim that you cannot tell.

What I do agree though is that terrorist attacks and social unrest have lead to some people cancelling their bookings. It will be interesting to see how the EURO2016 translates into AF numbers.
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:44 pm

News now also reaches about Cabin Crew aiming for a strike from 27-jul untill 2-August. Still far away, but a second threath.

In the meantime a start of the strike by pilots starting this saturday is still on schedule.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18142
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:38 pm

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 54):
it is very clear that KLM is much more successful in reducing cost with the cooperation of (almost) all staff and unions involved and therefore are able to grow and produce more profit.
Unless AF staff and specially the unions realizes this they will never create a healthy and profitable company.

That is what matters. Even a small profit difference will drive investment allocation.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 63):
Load factor (%) 85.8% vs 84.1% +1.7

KLM's load factor is impressive. While only a little Higher than AF, it is high enough to drive expansion.

Quoting mozart (Reply 64):
I just claim that you cannot tell.

There is enough information to justify more growth at KLM. Since this pilots' strike is over the 'balance' of route allocated, we can conclude that AFKLM should grow KL more than AF. AF is not growing revenue, so little need for more flights while KLM's revenue growth exceeds inflation, so growth should be invested.

These strikes are causing revenue loss. But the strike doesn't change the need for higher productivity.

In a time of record airline profits, AFKLM isn't doing well. Considering the huge aircraft orders of the last few years, how is AF going to adapt.

I also haven't seen the group's plans for how the A321LR will change the TATL market. Air Lingua at DUB and JetBlue at BOS/JFK will help change the market.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
hilram
Posts: 734
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:12 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:46 pm

KLM should make a move to dismantle this ungodly union with Air France. Let the French have it their own way in "Planet France"...
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
factsonly
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:40 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 64):
it can shift many costs and revenues

Operational statistics present production result, financials are a whole different ball game.

The statistics clearly indicate that KLM is the more successful producer !
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8726
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:44 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 65):

In the meantime a start of the strike by pilots starting this saturday is still on schedule.

You mean right for the start of the Euro 2016? Sorry, but that is intentionally killing the company you work for.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 66):
In a time of record airline profits, AFKLM isn't doing well. Considering the huge aircraft orders of the last few years, how is AF going to adapt.

That's what really baffles me. Airlines around the world are making huge profits...with AF/KLM being an exception among global legacy airlines. Now, instead of making their company, already with a dubious history of random strikes, appeal to more travelers, they get customers flocking to their competition in droves, right as the tourism season is peaking.

Who in their right mind, would chance the grief of being stranded during their precious vacation time, due to a strike? Even if these are announced well ahead of time to allow passengers to book around them, how will that lend confidence to the flying public? And who would bother to book around strikes?

"Look Honey...AF staff isn't planning any strikes on the second week of August. Let's go to Paris...! Now, let's double check the French ATC strike schedule. Are French farmers disgruntled this summer...?"

Airline competition is growing. There are precious few routes that are exclusive to any one airline. All that will happen is that people will fly with other airlines...and continue to avoid AF.

Ironically, KLM will probably be one of the benefactors of this strike.
What the...?
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:33 am

http://www.airfrance.nl/NL/en/common...hp/news_air_traffic_air_france.htm

Air France announces the strike on their website with the possibility for refunds.

11-14 june seem unavoidable, I don't think we will see empty football stadiums because of the strike, there is not much long-haul traffic for that, but certainly the tourism sector in Paris may feel another blow.
 
hooverman
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting mozart (Reply 64):
Be careful what you read into these results
Quoting mozart (Reply 64):
I just claim that you cannot tell.

That's ridiculous. The numbers DO tell.

Quoting mozart (Reply 64):
It will be interesting to see how the EURO2016 translates into AF numbers.

They will simply strike again.
And the people from KLM will be working and making money and performing better.

There is a rumor in a Dutch newspaper that in fact the AF management is about to make a kneefall to the AF pilots and shift some flights from KL to AF. It mentions flights to Mexico, Sri Lanka and Cuba.
This way they try to avoid the EURO2016 strike.

If true this would be madness.
 
76er
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:01 am

Indeed, it's all over the news now in The Netherlands. Source seems to be Le Figaro.
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:57 am

Quoting hooverman (Reply 72):
There is a rumor in a Dutch newspaper that in fact the AF management is about to make a kneefall to the AF pilots and shift some flights from KL to AF. It mentions flights to Mexico, Sri Lanka and Cuba.
This way they try to avoid the EURO2016 strike.

If true this would be madness.

It depends how these route launches are determined. If AFKL decide together on a strategy, it could be a valid point (though It makes no sense to me). However, if KL is allowed to grow organically, than these KL routes are well deserved. It seems the health and energy of KL are being used to keep the old AF machine rolling. The outcome in the end is still a non-performing old sloppy AF, and a restrained small KL.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:16 am

The french pilots have reduced the communication with the dutch pilots to a minimum.
Besides saying that KLM should not grow whitout AF growing.
They are also mad about the KLM pilots having allowed Transavia to start a base in Munich.

They bet on the French state never letting them go bancrupt, while the dutch know that their government
probably wont save them.

In Atlanta the Delta directors must also be getting enough of this nonsense.
Especially if the holding decides to shift routes from AMS to CDG.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:23 am

SNPL union demands Air France management to add 26 widebody planes to the fleet by 2020 to restore the balance between AF and KLM.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...t-en-milliards-d-euros-577820.html

[Edited 2016-06-09 03:24:29]
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8947
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:39 am

They want more planes, but how are going to fill them?.
 
hooverman
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:47 am

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 74):
The outcome in the end is still a non-performing old sloppy AF, and a restrained small KL.

Yes. The AF pilots are ruining the company.
And if Management will give the pilots what they want it will only be fuel for more strikes inside the company because this behavour will be rewarded.
If they don't get what they want they will also strike.

IMO AF-KLM are in a desperate position and KL will be the biggest victim in the end.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 75):

They bet on the French state never letting them go bancrupt, while the dutch know that their government
probably wont save them.
 
hooverman
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:51 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):
They want more planes, but how are going to fill them?.

Yes and according to the article Karel has posted they will also need 400 pilots and 2000 stewardesses extra.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:30 pm

"Dutch minister of Finances want urgency meeting with French colleagues."

Article states further that some members of the Dutch parlement say it's unacceptable that routes might be shifted from the Netherlands to Fance and demand the government takes action to prevent this.


http://fd.nl/economie-politiek/11554...en-spoedoverleg-over-airfrance-klm


Hmm.. situation seems to escalate a bit.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:30 pm

Not only that, they also demand an 11.6% pay rise to compensate for the stagnation of wages during the past 3 years. Wow!
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:30 pm

Delta would side with KL and AMS, Any. Day.
DL has a company culture that is so close to the Dutch, Scandinavian and German mindset. It's business. It's efficiency. It's not emotion. It's not feelings (even though the dutch are some the most empathetic people out there, they won't let it get in the way of smart decision making)

As much as the Dutch love anything French, there is a huge cultural divide not being discussed here. When the KL and AF marriage was announced, many saw dark clouds on the horizon.
French temperament is so different from the Dutch.
It's all basically coming to a head right now. Fully exposed.

In a nutshell: efficiency and prosperity beat politics in the Netherlands. It's quite the opposite in France. Just let that digest for a minute...
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11845
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 1):
Hahahahaha. This is a bit rich.
So much for European "unity" (and efficiency).
The truth revealed and exposed, once again.

What about uniting tax systems ? Is your country ready for this ? No more Dutch sandwich !

Quoting Nola (Reply 31):
So does this union represent only long-haul pilots, or short haul? Or is it that two pilots flying a plane could belong to completely different unions, such that a strike by one would ground the aircraft for not having necessary crew even though the other was not on strike?

Yes you can join any union you like in France.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 58):
Firing them all is the best solution. It's reached the point where it's pretty much the only real solution.

They can't be fired for striking.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
hooverman
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:43 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 83):
What about uniting tax systems ? Is your country ready for this ? No more Dutch sandwich !

Personally and I know a lot of dutch people agree that there shouldn't even be a uniting tax system.
They are EU tired.

What works for one country doesn't always work for another.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18142
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:55 pm

It amazes me this is happening just a few years prior to A321LR EIS. Instead of AFKLM focusing on how to be competitive after that paradigm shift. The low cost per flight NEO is increasing cost effective narrowbody range from 3100nm to 3900nm+ (A320NEO beat EIS range promise by 100nm...) with plenty of room at US hubs or the new IST and SAW & DUB (after 2nd runway). Instead acting like it is 1960...

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 76):
NPL union demands Air France management to add 26 widebody planes to the fleet by 2020 to restore the balance between AF and KLM.

Wow... the banks for sharing, but it shows how disconnected the union is from the business case.

It is real simple, flights should be shifted to the more profitable entity, since we can determine that is not AF...

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 80):

Hmm.. situation seems to escalate a bit.

The pilots already escalated this. When an issue is escalated politically, one must consider what is the most advantageous for the other side too. For KLM, it is to keep escalating to keep their flights as they are earning the profit to expand.

To all:
I have no horse in this race. I want to see both airlines expand. It just takes profits to expand and AFKLM must improve their profits to industry norm or become irrelevant.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:57 pm

If only the Delta pilots could do the same  
 
DDR
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:06 pm

Is it even possible for KLM to break away from Air France? If so, that would be the best solution. Leave Air France to rot away. There comes a point when employees (pilots union) have to face facts. It seems like the KLM/Air France management team is unfairly biased towards AF if they actually add those wide body planes and new employees at the expense of the money making KLM?

Such a shame because AF has such an important history in commercial aviation.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:47 pm

Dutch finance minister Dijselbloem confirmed that the Dutch government can't do much about transferring flights from from KLM to AF as the government is a minority shareholder but he said that they (the government) can influence the landing rights if required. (they are in talks with the French government about this issue)
He said that this is a problem for the AF side of the company and the government will do everything to avoid transferring flights from KLM to AF as according to the government it is not KLM job to solve AF internal problems.
Source: http://www.ad.nl/economie/dijsselblo...hten-klm-naar-air-france~affe651e/
To be continued.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:20 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 80):
Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 88):
he said that they (the government) can influence the landing rights if required.

Taking away landing rights from KLM to prevent flights from being transferred from AMS to CDG makes just as little sense as AF pilots refusing to do their job to 'restore the balance'.
 
AA94
Posts: 723
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:47 pm

Article in English: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...alks-on-air-france-klm-jobs-claim/

Quoting peanuts (Reply 82):

  

Truly a shame that the AF side continues to drag down the AF/KL union. The pilots are living in an alternate reality.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:12 am

Quoting Jetty (Reply 89):
Taking away landing rights from KLM to prevent flights from being transferred from AMS to CDG makes just as little sense as AF pilots refusing to do their job to 'restore the balance'.

But can't they refuse landing rights to AF flying on AMS ?
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4112
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:46 am

The French president has announced a tough stance, promising that strikes will not derail Euro 2016 or prevent fans from attending games. His comments were interpreted as a veiled threat to bus drivers to return to work voluntarily or be forced to, but it is not excluded all transport professionals will have to make the same choice.

Quoting Jetty (Reply 89):
Taking away landing rights from KLM to prevent flights from being transferred from AMS to CDG makes just as little sense as AF pilots refusing to do their job to 'restore the balance'.

What landing rights is he talking about? The Dutch government cannot award and withhold slots in AMS. All they can do is try and use their influence at the EU level to try and block Open Skies agreements with non-EU countries that would benefit France and Air France. Color me confused...

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 91):
But can't they refuse landing rights to AF flying on AMS ?

Any European airline can operate between any two European airports, including domestic flights. There's nothing the Dutch government can do to stop Air France flying into AMS from anywhere in Europe.

Quoting DDR (Reply 87):
Is it even possible for KLM to break away from Air France?

Everything is possible. KLM is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Air France KLM Group. All it would take is for someone to make an offer attractive enough to the Air France KLM Group shareholders. The French government owns about 17% of the Group, so they couldn't block the sale if a majority of shareholders could be convinced. Considering that KLM is in all likelihood responsible for all/most of the profits, it would have to be a very generous offer though.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:03 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 82):
efficiency and prosperity beat politics in the Netherlands

Not trying to get this thing turned political, but Dutch Politics is not all efficiency and prosperit, it also gets stuck in endless discussions and undecissiveness sometimes.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 91):
Everything is possible. KLM is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Air France KLM Group. All it would take is for someone to make an offer attractive enough to the Air France KLM Group shareholders. The French government owns about 17% of the Group, so they couldn't block the sale if a majority of shareholders could be convinced. Considering that KLM is in all likelihood responsible for all/most of the profits, it would have to be a very generous offer though.

On a comical note, there is/was even a fundraiser to buy back KLM. They anticpated to require 450mln euro, and have raised about 150.000.

[Edited 2016-06-09 23:15:25]
 
AngMoh
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:06 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 91):
What landing rights is he talking about? The Dutch government cannot award and withhold slots in AMS. All they can do is try and use their influence at the EU level to try and block Open Skies agreements with non-EU countries that would benefit France and Air France. Color me confused...

I was under the impression that this had to do with the transfer of long distance wide body flights from KL/AMS to AF/CDG - for example flights to south and central America. And then there might be rights involved: for example can you change a MEX-AMS flight into a MEX-CDG flight and switch from KL to AF without obtaining necessary permissions in 3 countries?
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:26 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 91):
KLM is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Air France KLM Group.

No. The Dutch state and some individuals have a minority of KLM shares. There are also 3 foundations tasked with ensuring the continuity and Dutch character of KLM who together with the Dutch state have a majority of voting rights at KLM. Though highly impractical that makes it possible to break away from Air France without their approval would the situation at Air France deteriorate.

Meanwhile a Dutch union demands that KLM prevents a strike at AF  (would this be the 1st union to demand there is no strike instead of trying to further their demands with a strike?)
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4112
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:35 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 93):
And then there might be rights involved: for example can you change a MEX-AMS flight into a MEX-CDG flight and switch from KL to AF without obtaining necessary permissions in 3 countries?

The permissions may already exist either within the framework of a current bilateral treaty between France and the third country, or as part as an Open Skies agreement between the EU and the third country. If the permissions do not exist, The Netherlands could lobby a third country to try and encourage them to deny additional rights to France and/or Air France, but I don't know of a mechanism where they could somehow impose a veto against the will of France and a third country.

To borrow your example, if Mexico is fine with Air France doing MEX-CDG, I can't imagine there's anything The Netherlands could do about it.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
mozart
Posts: 2154
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
There is enough information to justify more growth at KLM. Since this pilots' strike is over the 'balance' of route allocated, we can conclude that AFKLM should grow KL more than AF. AF is not growing revenue, so little need for more flights while KLM's revenue growth exceeds inflation, so growth should be invested.

Of the thousands of posts I have read from you over the years this is the first time I do not agree with you. Makes it easy, my "home turf" is business and finance, so I feel somewhat more certain about what I am saying:

Why should KLM grow faster than AF? Because its *revenue* and *pax numbers* grow faster? Absolutely not!!

You want to dedicate capital for growth to the more profitable entitiy, and from the numbers there is no way to tell which entity is more profitable.

By your logic, one would pour lots of money into Qatar Airways (if it was a publicly traded company). Huge revenue growth, huge growth of passenger numbers. By my logic putting money into Qatar Airways is foolish as their growth just creates more losses.

Hence: forget about revenue growth, care about profitability.

And who says that AF profitability hasn't improved? Maybe they have slow growth because they reduce capacity/grow capacity only slowly in markets that have a profitability challenge (some desintations in Africa, Brasil, to give two examples). In fact, the investor community always looks favourable on airlines that manage their capacity carefully rather than just throw seats on the market.

But as long as you don't have information on yield or on unit revenue you cannot tell anything about profitability.

Am I defending AF? Absolutely not, I happen to think they are a badly managed airline and that the pilots have lost their mind.

But I am pointing to the fact that there is no number that allows you to tell which airline is more profitable and therefore to come to the conclusion which one deserves more gorwth investment.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 67):
Operational statistics present production result, financials are a whole different ball game.

The statistics clearly indicate that KLM is the more successful producer !

"Successful" measured by what? It should be measured by profitability, and there is nothing there that allows you to make a conclusion about profitability.

Quoting hooverman (Reply 71):
That's ridiculous. The numbers DO tell.

Quite loud mouthed to call it ridiculous, but if you were so kind to share with us how looking at ASK, RSK, load factors tells you something about profitability?

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 79):
Article states further that some members of the Dutch parlement say it's unacceptable that routes might be shifted from the Netherlands to Fance and demand the government takes action to prevent this.

Oh no, please, not another government! Already having the French government and their idea that companies have to be meddled with is too much and producing disastrous results.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 82):
What about uniting tax systems ? Is your country ready for this ? No more Dutch sandwich !

Why should countries with an attractive tax regime abandon it and move to the high tax regime of France? Why doesn't France move to the more attractive regime? Why no French sandwich?

Of course, if France can't afford it because it has a bloated public sector and is highly indebted then it is understandable that they need the tax income. But France can't ask other countries to increase taxes only because France can't get its spending under control.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 84):
It is real simple, flights should be shifted to the more profitable entity, since we can determine that is not AF...

Again, how can we determine which one is the more profitable entity? Which numbers do you have or are published to allow for that conclusion? I haven't seen any, and believe me, I am looking for years.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3025
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:00 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 96):
Why should KLM grow faster than AF? Because its *revenue* and *pax numbers* grow faster? Absolutely not!!

No... because KLM and its personnel are capable of operating an airline without continuous bickering, confrontation, and determination to shove their own selfish interests above those of everyone else.

Quoting mozart (Reply 96):
Of course, if France can't afford it because it has a bloated public sector and is highly indebted

And because they have aceeded to too many demands from militant unions, who had threatened to shutter the economy of they didn't get their own bloated beneifys, from both the public and the private sectors.

Quoting mozart (Reply 96):
"Successful" measured by what?

"Successful" because KLM is flying reliably and profitably... while its partner is "unsuccessful" at keeping is planes in the air - when random strikes and protests abound - and is dragging down the corporation as a whole.

The same attitude that resulted in your "bloated public sector" can be ascribed to these pilots and the private sector. It is too bad they can't be fired for these shenanigans.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:13 pm

The KL pilots union has withdrawn from a cooperation protocol with the AF unions, calling their behavior 'destructive'. According to the KL pilots their AF colleagues "refuse to take responsibility for their own company while the situation demands measures to be taken".
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: New Strike Of AF Pilots To Restore Balance With KL

Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:37 pm

Quoting Jetty (Reply 98):
The KL pilots union has withdrawn from a cooperation protocol with the AF unions

This has not happened.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos