Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10195
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:13 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 48):
The fault lies with QR, not DL.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):
3. The terminal operator assigns the gates, not Delta.

Well that's no fun.

At most airports the airlines work together on such things. Obviously the 777 gate that QR would have used was sitting open. They could have simply moved the A320s over to that gate.
 
audian
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:05 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:19 pm

Just another instance of DL's arrogance.

It's a classic example on how airports play to the tunes of major/hub airline. Nothing wrong in doing so, but sometimes the airports should show that they have spine to be independent.

[Edited 2016-06-02 11:22:45]
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
Obviously the 777 gate that QR would have used was sitting open. They could have simply moved the A320s over to that gate.

Both of them? To a gate that can only accommodate one aircraft and has only one jetbridge?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:43 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 48):

One thing. The "airport operator" TBI only controls 4 gates on E. As a part of the lease agreement, Delta assigns the gates on E, even to OA. When AA RONs aircraft at night on F, they call Delta tower and hsve to go through their gate keeper. Again, Delta controls who parks where on E.

I know how the process works and I have to humbly call bullshit on this one. If they wanted to park the AC on the gate they could have.
What gets measured gets done.
 
bhill
Posts: 1804
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:44 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 33):
I know it has and I paraphrased the definition. Rather than saying I am wrong, point out where airlines who enter Ch11 don't get a financial benefit. If it has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength, it should be an easy question to answer.

It is pretty damn easy...file for bankruptcy....then go an try to buy a car....or ANYTHING on credit....

Free money my ass...you will be PAYING ALOT more than your competitors.....
Carpe Pices
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10195
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:50 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
Obviously the 777 gate that QR would have used was sitting open. They could have simply moved the A320s over to that gate.

Both of them? To a gate that can only accommodate one aircraft and has only one jetbridge?

Do we have a list of arrivals on the gate/s in question during the QR turn period?
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:56 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 48):
Perhaps folks should actually read Jetlanta's excellent write up of the process at ATL for gate assignments. The fact QR switched things up late in the process and decided to bring in the 380 as a one-off was on them. I think many of you are assigning personal feelings to an impartial scheduling process.

Much ado about nothing. QR 380 occasionally use the hardstands at BKK yet it doesn't generate two threads whining about it. That said, you'd have to be naive to believe DL did everything within its control to help accommodate QR.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
nry
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:42 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:03 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 33):
Rather than saying I am wrong, point out where airlines who enter Ch11 don't get a financial benefit. If it has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength, it should be an easy question to answer.

The owners of the airline take a huge hit. Shareholders own worthless stock when the company goes bankrupt. Often creditors get pennies on the dollar and perhaps shares in the new entity, but the previous owners of the airlines are washed out 100%.

Maybe some education on what a shareholder of a public company is in order. The US Government has put in place an orderly process to transition the ownership of an operating entity into new hands, but that's it. There's no "funding" or "subsidy" here.

You're right. It was an easy question to answer.
B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, B787, DC9/MD80, DC10, MD11
A319, A320 (+neo), A321, A330, A340
L1011
ATR77, CRJ200, CRJ700, E145, E170, E175
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:12 pm

Shame on DL for their childish, unprofessional and rude behaviour. Not that it will ever happen in our lifetime, but I hope QR extend the same courtesy if DL ever launch ATL-DOH

It's just made DL look like sore losers and bitter ones at that. Dress it up however you want but DL made sure that A380 gate was not free deliberately to block QR. Ridiculous.

[Edited 2016-06-02 12:13:43]
 
alfa164
Posts: 3518
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:14 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 30):
And people wonder how the US3 get such a "stellar" reputation?

Coming from someone in Russia - who probably flies some Russian airline - that has to be the most ironic statement in this thread.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 44):
Actually, in a Bankrtupcy, the creditors of the debtor take the hit; unless the creditor is a government entity, it won't affect the taxpayer (at least directly). In the case of the US3, all of whom have been through at least one Chapter 11 proceeding (I say "at least one" because at least Continental and US Airways had been through two - plus 2 at America West, 3 at TWA, etc.), the government didn't take a hit (although certain airports might have for past due leases, landing fees, etc. But as others here have said, that's not the same as government subsidies as alleged against the ME3.

   Exactly

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 33):
I know it has and I paraphrased the definition. Rather than saying I am wrong, point out where airlines who enter Ch11 don't get a financial benefit. If it has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength, it should be an easy question to answer.

It has been pointed out over and over; read superjeff's answer. There is no government subsidy; the governmant makes the laws, but there is no subsidy. The airlines and its creditors are bound by the rule of law... something far different that what happens in Russia.


Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 33):
It's still a legal way of saving money.

Thank you! Yes, it is legal - and subsidies are illegal. So it is not a subsidy.

And keep in mind that Chapter 11 bankruptcies come with many potential pitfalls and strings attached; no airline (or any other business) will file for one unless it becomes absolutely necessary for survival. It is a business reorganization - not a bail-out.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:14 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 54):
It is pretty damn easy...file for bankruptcy....then go an try to buy a car....or ANYTHING on credit....

Free money my ass...you will be PAYING ALOT more than your competitors.....

After paying a lot less than your competitors in dividends, bills, wages, fees etc etc etc..

Quoting nry (Reply 57):
The owners of the airline take a huge hit. Shareholders own worthless stock when the company goes bankrupt. Often creditors get pennies on the dollar and perhaps shares in the new entity, but the previous owners of the airlines are washed out 100%.

Maybe some education on what a shareholder of a public company is in order. The US Government has put in place an orderly process to transition the ownership of an operating entity into new hands, but that's it. There's no "funding" or "subsidy" here.

You're right. It was an easy question to answer.

I am sorry but I seem to miss the point.

Does the airline get to pay less than it owes?

The answer is yes, and that simply means that it is a facilty by which airlines can reduce the money that they have to pay. There is NO other way to spin it. Unless that facility is available to each and every airline in the world, then the US airlines have an unfair advantage. The same unfair advantage the ME carriers have if they receive cheap fuel or cheap airport fees.

Call it whatever you want or don't want but the facility exists to REDUCE the amount of money payable. There is no other answer that tops that.

No one is arguing that shareholders and creditors don't take a hit - there is no education needed.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:21 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 59):

Coming from someone in Russia - who probably flies some Russian airline - that has to be the most ironic statement in this thread.

Out of line. I'd rather fly Aeroflot any day over most US airlines. Not all, but most.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 60):

Quoting bhill (Reply 54):
It is pretty damn easy...file for bankruptcy....then go an try to buy a car....or ANYTHING on credit....

Free money my ass...you will be PAYING ALOT more than your competitors.....

After paying a lot less than your competitors in dividends, bills, wages, fees etc etc etc..

Quoting nry (Reply 57):
The owners of the airline take a huge hit. Shareholders own worthless stock when the company goes bankrupt. Often creditors get pennies on the dollar and perhaps shares in the new entity, but the previous owners of the airlines are washed out 100%.

Maybe some education on what a shareholder of a public company is in order. The US Government has put in place an orderly process to transition the ownership of an operating entity into new hands, but that's it. There's no "funding" or "subsidy" here.

You're right. It was an easy question to answer.

I am sorry but I seem to miss the point.

Does the airline get to pay less than it owes?

The answer is yes, and that simply means that it is a facilty by which airlines can reduce the money that they have to pay. There is NO other way to spin it. Unless that facility is available to each and every airline in the world, then the US airlines have an unfair advantage. The same unfair advantage the ME carriers have if they receive cheap fuel or cheap airport fees.

Call it whatever you want or don't want but the facility exists to REDUCE the amount of money payable. There is no other answer that tops that.

No one is arguing that shareholders and creditors don't take a hit - there is no education needed.

   dress it anyway you like, even call it something else, but they are still paying less than they should have.
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4781
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:26 pm

Meh this is much ado about nothing. DL could have been more accommodating but wasn't. QR sent an A380 as a publicity stunt and had to use a hardstand. In the end, it's just something humorous that happened and things will be back to normal tomorrow. At least DL picked on the ME airline which is actually receiving illegal subsidies. And Al Baker is an insufferable blowhard, so that makes it funnier. It's really not something to get so worked up about as some of you are.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 56):
That said, you'd have to be naive to believe DL did everything within its control to help accommodate QR.

Yeah exactly. Let's not pretend that special accommodations couldn't have been made for the inaugural with DL's assistance. Suggesting that DL is totally innocent is naive. But getting as worked up as some on here are is also an overreaction.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:29 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 59):

Coming from someone in Russia - who probably flies some Russian airline - that has to be the most ironic statement in this thread.

Petty insults only undermine your argument. I fly a lot of international airlines that don't need to declare bankruptcy every so often to survive.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 59):

Where is anyone doubting that?

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 59):
And keep in mind that Chapter 11 bankruptcies come with many potential pitfalls and strings attached; no airline (or any other business) will file for one unless it becomes absolutely necessary for survival. It is a business reorganization - not a bail-out.

Again no one is doubting that but they pay less than they should (a discount), therefore it is financial help by any other name.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 63):

Again no one is doubting that but they pay less than they should (a discount), therefore it is financial help by any other name.


If I buy 100 of a widget and the manufacturer charges me less than someone who buys 1 is that a subsidy?
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:40 pm

Not really surprised, DL is not a fan of the ME3 and they're not excited to see QR serving its #1 hub.
 
nry
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:42 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 60):
I am sorry but I seem to miss the point.

Does the airline get to pay less than it owes?


This is a silly question, frankly, and it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how things work. Without shareholders, companies do not exist. In a bankruptcy, the owners of the airlines lose everything. So essentially the "airline" pays by losing ownership in the company and handing it to its creditors.

Going to zero seems to be paying a lot, no?

The airline is basically "sold" to its creditors as part of the bankruptcy action - the obligations merely don't go away as you seem to think.

Airlines and "companies" do not exist on their own. Maybe this will help you understand - so do you think Yukos didn't "pay" for anything by being taken from Khodorkovsky? I bet he would say that he paid for it.

Airlines = their owners.

[Edited 2016-06-02 12:47:31]

[Edited 2016-06-02 12:49:22]
B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, B787, DC9/MD80, DC10, MD11
A319, A320 (+neo), A321, A330, A340
L1011
ATR77, CRJ200, CRJ700, E145, E170, E175
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10195
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:49 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 59):
- and subsidies are illegal.

As a side note, can anybody point me where it says that airline subsidies are illegal?

For example, State of Maryland tax dollars give BA a $6m cash incentive per year for over a decade...

JAN 26, 2016 - British Airways could receive subsidies of nearly $6 million per year for making direct flights between London's Heathrow Airport and Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport under a new deal going before the state's Board of Public Works Wednesday.
http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...uld-get-nearly-6m-per-year-to.html

SEP 17,2012-Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport is looking to spend up to $16.5 million to extend its contract with British Airways until 2016.

The Maryland Aviation Administration ran into controversy in 2006 when it was revealed that the agency had not disclosed to state legislators the annual subsidy of $5.5 million it had paid British Airways. Some industry experts criticized the practice, saying it was a sign that BWI was having difficulty increasing its overseas service.
http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...tish-airways-subsidy-contract.html
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:53 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 64):
If I buy 100 of a widget and the manufacturer charges me less than someone who buys 1 is that a subsidy?

If I owe a hundred people a $100s each but I legally pay them only $10 dollars and continue trading, is that a discount?

Quoting nry (Reply 66):
This is a silly question, frankly, and it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how things work. Without shareholders, companies do not exist. In a bankruptcy, the owners of the airlines lose everything. So essentially the "airline" pays by losing ownership in the company.

I understand how companies work. Shareholders lose everything - that is the risk of investment. Creditors get a small return on the money owed to them - that is the nature of bankruptcy. So far so good.

Name for me please all the non-US airlines who have used the same legal structure many times to survive when their business was in the toilet?
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
Heinkel
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:55 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):

Quote:
The feud between the two carriers escalated last March when Qatar Airways CEO Akbar Al Baker said he'd launched the Atlanta route "to rub salt into the wounds of Delta."

Delta played by the rules here. The rules exist at all airports to settle these sort of issues. Delta operated its normal schedule at the airport it operates over 1,000 daily departures. QR should have verified the A380 could be accommodated before it was scheduled.

May be Delta played the rules here but it shows what bad sportsmen our American friends are. So much about fair trade with competitors.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1442
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:00 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 26):
But, dumb decision by QR to fly the A380 on the inaugural. Didn't do them any good, and I'm sure the flight was a revenue loss.

very much doubt it with over 500 bums on seats! Bet DL had somebody counting and that will tick them off most!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
As a side note, can anybody point me where it says that airline subsidies are illegal?

Came to ask this same question. While, depending on interpretation, against the guiding principles of open skies agreements I'm not aware of any legislation that claims subsidies in and of themselves are illegal.

Either way the back and forth of who receives or has received subsidies is foolish. It can be argued and defended that the ME3 (or at the very least QR and EY) have received either direct or indirect government subsidies, and it could rightfully be interpreted that the US3 via certain bankruptcy repercussions or even the waiving of landing fees by publicly backed airports for set periods of time have also received subsidies of sort. That being the case, one or both of the parties involved are in breach of an open skies principle and the legislation should be reviewed and possibly adjusted. period.

The issue then of course becomes that the the ME3 don't want the document to be at all reviewed because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose when compared to the US3.

[Edited 2016-06-02 13:04:07]
 
nry
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:42 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:11 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 68):
Name for me please all the non-US airlines who have used the same legal structure many times to survive when their business was in the toilet?

Distinction without a difference. But let's run with it for a second. If a company changes ownership as an ongoing entity, is that "legal" structure the same or different? Does it even matter? Now that Iberia is part of IAG, does it matter if its "legal structure" is the same or different?

Don't confuse continuity of brand as the same as a company ownership or structure. Brand is an asset that can be bought and sold like a tire -- or a 737.

Chapter 11 is just a process that facilitates selling a company to its creditors when it can't pay its debts. Debt doesn't "disappear" - it's often exchanged with shares of the successor company as payment. How this can be construed as a "subsidy" is ridiculous.

[Edited 2016-06-02 13:16:11]
B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, B787, DC9/MD80, DC10, MD11
A319, A320 (+neo), A321, A330, A340
L1011
ATR77, CRJ200, CRJ700, E145, E170, E175
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:11 pm

I think it's funny. QR starts ATL to, as Al Baker put it, "to rub salt in the wounds of Delta," decides very late in the process to send a 380 for publicity purposes, then has to park on the tarmac and take a delay because of it. He is used to everyone kissing his backside and this time it didn't happen. He thinks QR is the greatest thing to ever happen to aviation and everyone (airports, plane manufacturers, etc.) should bow down to him. This time it didn't happen. Sure, DL could have probably figured a way to help QR out but why woul they when, again, QR is in ATL to "rub salt" in their wounds. I wish more airports would tell Al Baker where to go when he tries to pull these stunts. He's just a big thug/bully, "all hat no cattle" as some would say.

[Edited 2016-06-02 13:13:14]

[Edited 2016-06-02 13:16:52]
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 70):
very much doubt it with over 500 bums on seats! Bet DL had somebody counting and that will tick them off most!

right, because load factor is such a spot on indicator of profitability...
  

Inaugurals like this are often packed with press, agency reps, some higher level employees, and some high value customers; and the tickets are almost always given away. You can bet this first flight was a loss maker and without any ATL feed it would be difficult to argue that the route won't be a loss maker as well.
 
D L X
Posts: 12672
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:21 pm

Oh, I get it now.

QR didn't get the A380 gate at ATL because of the DL bankruptcy.
 
cokepopper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:21 pm


Sorry the gate was being used for a photo shoot.

Not sure why people can't see in this particular case, Delta had the last laugh.
The stunt by QR backfired, now people are mad.

[Edited 2016-06-02 13:22:13]
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:30 pm

Quoting nry (Reply 72):
Chapter 11 is just a process that facilitates selling a company to its creditors when it can't pay its debts. Debt doesn't "disappear" - it's often exchanged with shares of the successor company as payment. How this can be construed as a "subsidy" is ridiculous.

The creditor will not see their full amount unless the company does well. Anyway that is not the point.

My original gripe is the US3 saying they have it hard because other airlines get this and that but they themselves benefit from a bankruptcy structure that doesn't really exist outside the US. Is that fair to non US airlines who have to fold or be sold? I think no. If you disagree, so be it.

Anyway, 'nuf said. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

Happy landings everyone!
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
nry
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:42 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:33 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 77):
. Is that fair to non US airlines who have to fold or be sold? I think no. If you disagree, so be it.

Um, it's clear that in Chapter 11, the airline is sold, so your point doesn't make sense.
B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, B787, DC9/MD80, DC10, MD11
A319, A320 (+neo), A321, A330, A340
L1011
ATR77, CRJ200, CRJ700, E145, E170, E175
 
User avatar
11725Flyer
Posts: 1371
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 4:51 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:48 pm

Qatar Airways CEO Ali Al Baker said the Doha-Atlanta route would “rub salt in the wounds” of Delta.

He got what he deserved.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:58 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
At most airports the airlines work together on such things. Obviously the 777 gate that QR would have used was sitting open. They could have simply moved the A320s over to that gate.

You know better than that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
Both of them? To a gate that can only accommodate one aircraft and has only one jetbridge?

Not only do they take up two gates, they take them up for hours. Delta would have displaced 4-6 flights to accommodate QR, all of which were international arrivals at peak hours. Somebody had to ramp load. The airline that didn't follow the proper procedure is the one that got the honor.

Quoting Heinkel (Reply 69):
May be Delta played the rules here but it shows what bad sportsmen our American friends are. So much about fair trade with competitors.

Oh please. There is a reason the rules exist.
 
User avatar
ro1960
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:19 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:09 pm

And the winner is.... QR ! They must be quite happy with the extra publicity.   
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10195
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:14 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 80):
Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
At most airports the airlines work together on such things. Obviously the 777 gate that QR would have used was sitting open. They could have simply moved the A320s over to that gate.

You know better than that.

I don't know better than that.

While headquarters' staffs of airlines seem to all hate each other, the airport managers typically get along swimmingly and work together all the time, somewhat because they have to. Yes, if you have one airline in a dominant position then that can kill the camaraderie as they won't share what they consider to be theirs (even though it is owned by the airport, AKA, the citizens), but at airports where things are fairly even, airlines typically get along very well and help each other out.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10195
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:18 pm

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 76):
Not sure why people can't see in this particular case, Delta had the last laugh.
The stunt by QR backfired, now people are mad.

I'd say the article makes Delta look not so good.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:25 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 83):
I'd say the article makes Delta look not so good.
Quoting ro1960 (Reply 81):
And the winner is.... QR ! They must be quite happy with the extra publicity.   

I'm not sure anyone outside of a.net cares
I don't take responsibility at all
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10195
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:37 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 84):
Quoting enilria (Reply 83):
I'd say the article makes Delta look not so good.
Quoting ro1960 (Reply 81):
And the winner is.... QR ! They must be quite happy with the extra publicity.

I'm not sure anyone outside of a.net cares

Regardless, I think with the FOX theater, the parade, and this, it's not building Delta's brand the way they'd like, regardless of who was at fault in each situation...
 
bx737
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:43 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):

Just out of curiosity, did the ATL airport authority explain to QR that the gate was not available for the A380. If they did then the fault is with QR, if they did not, the fault lies with ATL airport authority.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5355
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:45 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
--their C Series order,

It would be really nice if people would listen to DL's issues with ExIm before commenting. It has never been about narrow bodies or a lot of other things ExIm is used for.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 24):

If there is one A380 gate at the airport and it isn't being used for the A380 service to the airport (but rather by a DL A320 which could use X number of other gates), then that is either very bad planning or very bad manners...

So the A380 gate(s) should only be used for A380 flights? not even 1x a day utilization.

yeah that is logic if I have ever heard it.  
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):


That act fits the character and culture of DL. That's no mistake. Childish and despicable.

As normal, you don't know what you are talking about.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 30):

Ch 11: a method of allowing a corporation to renege on most if not all of it's debts while restructuring the business, for the better it must be said. (FREE MONEY)

nope. Not right.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 38):
poor QR passengers at ATL   

and at most airports around the world even DOH.
busing happens everywhere. The only reason this is a big deal is because its DL and ATL. Any other airport in the world and no one would even comment on it.

Quoting audian (Reply 51):
Nothing wrong in doing so, but sometimes the airports should show that they have spine to be independent.

Smart. Who do we pick. 1,000 flights + a day. City of Atlanta and State of Georgia's largest employer.......or a 1 daily flight airline who probably only has 1-2 official employees in the state (if that)

Yeah, logical. I do wish that would have happened, maybe the state would finally take the airport away from the city at that point.

Quoting Heinkel (Reply 69):

May be Delta played the rules here but it shows what bad sportsmen our American friends are. So much about fair trade with competitors.

So, QR says they are starting ATL to piss of DL, then adds a A380 flight at the last minute expecting DL and the City to kiss their ass


but DL is the bad sport here?
Quoting enilria (Reply 83):

I'd say the article makes Delta look not so good.

Only people like you think that. My hope is that it is a very small part of the world population who doesn't understand how lease agreements work.

Quoting enilria (Reply 82):
Yes, if you have one airline in a dominant position then that can kill the camaraderie as they won't share what they consider to be theirs (even though it is owned by the airport, AKA, the citizens), but at airports where things are fairly even, airlines typically get along very well and help each other out.

Don't AKA the citizens. Learn what a lease is.

Delta played by the rules in its lease agreement with the City of Atlanta. period. Welcome to Business 101.

Quoting enilria (Reply 82):

I don't know better than that.


Well admitting is step one, step two would be to educate yourself on how things work.  
 
User avatar
cageyjames
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:08 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:45 pm

If AF had decided to do this, would DL have made room?
 
airtechy
Posts: 755
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 82):
While headquarters' staffs of airlines seem to all hate each other, the airport managers typically get along swimmingly and work together all the time, somewhat because they have to

I would agree with this however QR is not just any airline. When you poke the ATL bear, you can expect him to be upset and play by the rules. I'm sure if BA...LH needed a 380 gate for a charter or for whatever reason they would be readily accommodated.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:14 pm

Quoting bx737 (Reply 86):
Just out of curiosity, did the ATL airport authority explain to QR that the gate was not available for the A380. If they did then the fault is with QR, if they did not, the fault lies with ATL airport authority.

Yes they did
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):
6. QR had a normal gate (F7) available to them for the 777-300ER schedule they had requested.

What flights used F7 while the QR 380 was on the ground?
 
Flaps
Posts: 1649
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:58 pm

I'll never understand the blind infatuation with the ME3 on this sight. That said though this has been a most enjoyable thread. I'm not sure I've seen so many people get their panties in wad over such an insignificant event in all my many years here.

So QR had to use stairs big deal. It happens all over the world every day. DL was not required to shuffle their operations so QR could pull a publicity stunt. DL was fully within their rights not to make accommodation. It would have been a considerable expense for DL to do so. Was QR going to pay for that? That's how airport operations work. QR was told they could not be accommodated at the desired gate so there was no surprise there. They were serviced with what was available and were informed in advance.e They could have easily altered their schedule to allow for the longer downtime but didn't. They could have used the 777 but didn't. Did crazy Ali really think DL, ATL or any aviation organization in this country was going to kiss his a$$? Apparently so which makes it all the more entertaining.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:14 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 87):
So the A380 gate(s) should only be used for A380 flights? not even 1x a day utilization.

Does ATL have any regular A380 service now? I don't think so. KE used to be the only one but they're now using the 747-8 on ICN-ATL.
 
User avatar
SFOA380
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:35 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:46 am

Not at all surprising given DL behavior lately. QR shouldn't even be flying there. It's not a member of Skyteam, there's paltry O&D demand and Atlanta is far far far from an international gateway city from an O&D perspective. That's why the world's busiest airport has 9 foreign carriers. Would be even less if it weren't for Skyteam.
 
tlhgator
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:30 pm

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:50 am

Quoting deltacto (Reply 91):
What flights used F7 while the QR 380 was on the ground?

Usually around that time there is a WN int'l arrival followed by BA. Prior to WN coming in is LH which leaves around 1630, but was also delayed leaving yesterday as was the arrival by QR into ATL. Not to mention during that time frame, you have AF and VS at the gate on the F concourse. As jetlanta previously said, the A380 ops in ATL renders 2 gates out of service and realistically 3 gates due to the wing span and the angle that the aircraft must park.
 
alyusuph
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:24 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 7):
I just read that DL had an A320 at the only A380 gate at ATL. That's absolutely hilarious.

It has to be obvious that they could have put that A320 at almost any other gate at ATL. If I were a betting man, I'd say DL made sure to occupy that gate the instant they heard QR was coming with an A380.

I hope they are certain they will never ever fly to QR's turf.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:34 am

Anybody that thinks DL could have done "nothing" for the gating and they would have displaced flights is delusional. Gates go OOS all the time. A little bit of shuffling and there you have it. I say again. Gate control of the E gates is squarly with Delta save for 4 gates which are controlled by TBI. The airport (by way of TBI) has one person in the E ramp tower. Everyone else is DL and they assign gates to everyone including domestic OL for RON and first flight purposes (Spirit has flights that depart from E every morning).

This was a very childish move unfortunately. And to say there was NO WAY to accommodate the flight even with a month's notice is bullshit. Gating happens 3-4 days out. So although they may have a schedule of what will go where (general schedule) anyone that has worked ramp tower as a gate keep knows it will changed 2-3 days out due to MTC work on RON ac as well as ship changes. So you morning MEX flight may have been turning off a JFK arrival the night before but due to MTC routing, it's now off an AC that is already at the hanger and will need to be towed over. This is really sad.
What gets measured gets done.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:54 am

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 18):
Ch 11 is a form of subsidy in the minds of most people because it is an unfair advantage over airlines who cannot avail of such. Call it a quibble over semantics but a spade is a spade.

I don't like chapt 11 because I believe it's unfair, but it most certainly is not a subsidy.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 30):
Ch 11: a method of allowing a corporation to renege on most if not all of it's debts while restructuring the business, for the better it must be said. (FREE MONEY)

This is not correct. Delta spent years paying down 12+ billion dollars in debt after the ch11, which allowed for very limited investments in their fleet during that time. Delta did a fantastic job managing this and this is why they are one of the top airlines today.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 33):
I know it has and I paraphrased the definition. Rather than saying I am wrong, point out where airlines who enter Ch11 don't get a financial benefit. If it has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength, it should be an easy question to answer.

Sure it's a financial benefit (although also a substantial cost - hence why it still contain the word bankruptcy in it), but it's one where you end up with a moribund, zombi industry that has little credit to invest and expand. It's unfair to JetBlue and Southwest, which don't get the benefits of easily moving in and taking over the routes of expired, unsuccesful airlines.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 60):
After paying a lot less than your competitors in dividends, bills, wages, fees etc etc etc..

You know what dividends are?

[Edited 2016-06-02 20:59:54]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3181
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:23 am

Before I start, just a quick question, did this flight load via jetty or stairs in Doha ?

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 68):
Name for me please all the non-US airlines who have used the same legal structure many times to survive when their business was in the toilet?

Off the top of my head, Japan Airlines, the bigger question is which countries have laws that allow for this type of bankruptcy, otherwise you end up with this ......

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 61):
dress it anyway you like, even call it something else, but they are still paying less than they should have.

Let's list the UK airlines that have been through the bankruptcy process and are still flying.... List finished, yep, they go into administration and are liquidated, meaning thousands of lost jobs, normal regular folks suddenly out of work, I will take the US Ch. 13 process any day over that....And yes i've been through one, a billionaire lost a chunk of money during it and 3000 people kept their jobs.

Quoting 11725Flyer (Reply 79):
Qatar Airways CEO Ali Al Baker said the Doha-Atlanta route would “rub salt in the wounds” of Delta.

He got what he deserved.

I can tell you this, in my industry we have an unwritten rule, when it comes to PR we do not trash our competitors, simply because one day they may be in a position to make us look stupid, flying into ATL after saying that in public and expecting any help in any form is simply asking to be bent over, some here on A'Net may not like it, but DL will happily screw them over every chance they get.

What would A'Net's reaction have been if Ed Bastian had said that regarding flying into Doha (yes imaginary I know, Dl doesn't fly there) and then QR provides no help to DL.

Quoting enilria (Reply 82):
While headquarters' staffs of airlines seem to all hate each other, the airport managers typically get along swimmingly and work together all the time, somewhat because they have to

Very true, though in this case i'm sure word has come down from headquarters that QR gets no help.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 84):

I'm not sure anyone outside of a.net cares

Probably not.

Quoting alyusuph (Reply 96):
I hope they are certain they will never ever fly to QR's turf.

I very much doubt they were planning on it, what's the passenger count per day to Doha, 20 ? It's all to do with connections.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 97):

As above, I am sure it would have be easy for DL to figure out a way to accommodate the QR flight, but as soon as Al Baker opened his mouth he made sure his own airline gets zero help from Delta, yes Delta could have been the bigger "person", but why bother ?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos