No Gate For QR755 In ATL Inaugural

flyenthu · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:33 pm

Hi all:

I just read this on CNN. So sad that it has come to this! This appears really awful.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/aviati...airways-atlanta-airport/index.html

F/E

NWAROOSTER · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:43 pm

The games continue in this serious but unfortunate soap opera. Delta's welcoming for Qatar's first flight to Delta's home turf.

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:46 pm

Embarrassing.

Some 500 pax had to leave the plane via mobile stairs and travel to the terminal by shuttle buses.

D L X · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:49 pm

I have to imagine that Delta's explanation, while forthright, had to have been delivered with a smirk.

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:54 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Some 500 pax had to leave the plane via mobile stairs and travel to the terminal by shuttle buses.

Just another day in DXB or CDG

ikramerica · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:58 pm

QR claims to have given a months notice of equipment change. Highly doubt that as that would have been plenty of time to organize the gates. They may have announced it, but not actually notified ATL.

[Edited 2016-06-02 08:00:31]

Flaps · Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:58 pm

It's not the only time that I've seen airlines do this. In fact I know of a situation at another airport involving DL that is going on right now. I do however in this case think that its pretty darn funny.

D L X · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:02 pm

I just read that DL had an A320 at the only A380 gate at ATL. That's absolutely hilarious.

It has to be obvious that they could have put that A320 at almost any other gate at ATL. If I were a betting man, I'd say DL made sure to occupy that gate the instant they heard QR was coming with an A380.

apfpilot · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:04 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
The US3 certainly did well out of chapter 11 protections. Subsidies by another name.

While it is a reach to call those subsides at all, calling them government subsidies is just wrong.

777ord · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:22 pm

I would be more interested to see how the subsequent days go. A one off could be just that.. But, continuous gate issues would be sabotage.

This will be interesting to watch for sure!

mict · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:24 pm

Did something similar happen with TK? They started ATL about 2 weeks ago, wonder how they are doing.

skystar767 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:27 pm

What went on in ATL yesterday was just a nasty thing to do. Who ever did it. Remember what goes up must come down. The US government helped the airlines in the USA after 911.You can call it what ever you want. it's subsidies. Dumping the employee pension plan on the government, not pay full tax for up to five years if that not help(SUBSIDIES) don't know what is. I love how some on here like to spin the truth.Its very dangerous for one airline to have so much control over one airport. Just remember when Eastern was the big guy in ATL and they went under what happened,same with Panam in MIA. Nothing last for ever.

dabpit · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:27 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):

I just read that DL had an A320 at the only A380 gate at ATL. That's absolutely hilarious.

It has to be obvious that they could have put that A320 at almost any other gate at ATL. If I were a betting man, I'd say DL made sure to occupy that gate the instant they heard QR was coming with an A380.

The airport could have made the arrangements with a month notice, especially if the only A380 capable gate is common use. This is just DL protesting and the airport showing that they will allow this to happen to their customers that DL has issues with.

B747forever · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 13):
I would be more interested to see how the subsequent days go. A one off could be just that.. But, continuous gate issues would be sabotage.

It is going to be operated by the 777, for which there should be plenty of gates available.

dabpit · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:31 pm

Quoting skystar767 (Reply 16):
Its very dangerous for one airline to have so much control over one airport. Just remember when Eastern was the big guy in ATL and they went under what happened,same with Panam in MIA. Nothing last for ever.

Thank you! Same could be said for airlines de-hubbing a city they once had a lot of control over DL: CVG US: PIT ...etc

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:40 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 14):
Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 11):
Indeed, a LEGAL subsidy facilitated by the government. And then they scream "unfair playing field"...

Ditto

You misunderstood my post. It is a legal subsidy but a subsidy nonetheless, something the US3 scream and shout is unfair when others receive the same treatment.

Typical double standards.

If DL arrived to DOH and there wasn't a gate available for them, QR would be accused of everything bad under the sun. I bet here, in the reverse case, the same won't apply.

apfpilot · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:43 pm

Quoting Reply 19):

who do you think pays the cost in all bankruptcy cases? When a person abrogates his debt, it is ultimately always passed on to the taxpayer in terms of sunk costs, higher interest rates and other fees or charges. Debt doesn't disappear because a court declares someone bankrupt.

Not the tax payers but the shareholders of the companies who hold the debit. Is there some overlap? Sure but it is just silly to imply that it is a government or tax payer subsidy in bankruptcy.

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 21):
It is a legal subsidy but a subsidy nonetheless, something the US3 scream and shout is unfair when others receive the same treatment.

No it's not. There are *plenty* of examples of doublespeak when it comes to DL whining about the ME3--their C Series order, their cooperation with Chinese carriers, etc etc--but CH11 is not one of them.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 22):
Sure but it is just silly to imply that it is a government or tax payer subsidy in bankruptcy.

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:55 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
No it's not. There are *plenty* of examples of doublespeak when it comes to DL whining about the ME3--their C Series order, their cooperation with Chinese carriers, etc etc--but CH11 is not one of them.

There are also examples of DL and other US carriers saying that ME carriers receive fuel subsidies (from the state), reduced fees (from the state) etc etc. They do moan about this.

Ch 11 is a form of subsidy in the minds of most people because it is an unfair advantage over airlines who cannot avail of such. Call it a quibble over semantics but a spade is a spade.

Mir · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:00 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Embarrassing.

Some 500 pax had to leave the plane via mobile stairs and travel to the terminal by shuttle buses.

An airline operates a 380 as a publicity stunt to an airport that is not well set up to handle the 380, and there are problems. Imagine that.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 13):
I would be more interested to see how the subsequent days go. A one off could be just that..

The 777 will have no issues, so this was just a one-off thing.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 21):
If DL arrived to DOH and there wasn't a gate available for them, QR would be accused of everything bad under the sun.

It's not like QR couldn't park. They used a hardstand and buses. Happens all the time around the world and nobody cries foul over it.

-Mir

apfpilot · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 24):

Ch 11 is a form of subsidy in the minds of most people because it is an unfair advantage over airlines who cannot avail of such. Call it a quibble over semantics but a spade is a spade.

It's the laws of the country you operate in. Surely ME3 get benefits that Delta can't take advantage of especially with crew employment and minimum wage laws. Are those subsidies as well?

D L X · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:07 pm

Why are we talking about bankruptcy law on a thread titled "No Gate for QR755 in ATL Inaugural?"

LAXtoATL · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 24):
Ch 11 is a form of subsidy in the minds of most people because it is an unfair advantage over airlines who cannot avail of such. Call it a quibble over semantics but a spade is a spade.

Well, most people would be wrong. This is because of a number of relevant differences between a subsidy and a chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization (if most people don't know or understand the differences they shouldn't be trying to debat the issue until they educate themselves).

However, it really doesn't matter what people think since the bilateral agreements the countries sign with each other identify what is considered an inappropriate subsidy. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is NOT considered a subsidy per the agreement. Period. End of discussion. So, all this talk of well it is of kind of like, or I consider, etc means absolutely nothing and will never be part of the discussion if formal talks are ever held between the countries to discuss remedies.

There are other issues that would be more relevant to the discussion like the 911 bailout. You can debate whether or not that is an subsidy. Chapter 11 is not debatable!

B747forever · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 27):
Why are we talking about bankruptcy law on a thread titled "No Gate for QR755 in ATL Inaugural?"

Because every thread about the ME3 turns into ME3 vs US3 (mainly QR vs DL).

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
It's not like QR couldn't park. They used a hardstand and buses. Happens all the time around the world and nobody cries foul over it.

If there is one A380 gate at the airport and it isn't being used for the A380 service to the airport (but rather by a DL A320 which could use X number of other gates), then that is either very bad planning or very bad manners...

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 26):
It's the laws of the country you operate in. Surely ME3 get benefits that Delta can't take advantage of especially with crew employment and minimum wage laws. Are those subsidies as well?

Then we agree that both sides should shut up and stop slinging mud at each other? Each to his own then?

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:12 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 28):
However, it really doesn't matter what people think since the bilateral agreements the countries sign with each other identify what is considered an inappropriate subsidy. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is NOT considered a subsidy per the agreement.

Could you link that so I can "educate" myself please?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 28):
This is because of a number of relevant differences between a subsidy and a chapter 11 bankruptcy

And perhaps a few differences to help our schooing while you are in the mood for teaching us a lesson..

AABB777 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):

It's not like QR couldn't park. They used a hardstand and buses. Happens all the time around the world and nobody cries foul over it.

The old Doha airport had no jet bridges, so a lot of QR pax are used to stairs.

But, dumb decision by QR to fly the A380 on the inaugural. Didn't do them any good, and I'm sure the flight was a revenue loss.

kaitak744 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:18 pm

Slightly off topic, but are there any regular A380 operations that use stairs? And are there any regular A380 operations that don't have an upper level jet bridge? Wonder how long it takes to deplane that aircraft.

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:20 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 28):
if most people don't know or understand the differences they shouldn't be trying to debat the issue until they educate themselves

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
An airline operates a 380 as a publicity stunt to an airport that is not well set up to handle the 380, and there are problems. Imagine that.

Well....I think there was a little extra help in the problems department. And I'm not totally opposed, unofficially

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 24):
Ch 11 is a form of subsidy in the minds of most people because it is an unfair advantage over airlines who cannot avail of such. Call it a quibble over semantics but a spade is a spade.

A lot of people think the earth is 4000 years old: doesn't mean it's semantics or a spade...or true.

MSPNWA · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:25 pm

That act fits the character and culture of DL. That's no mistake. Childish and despicable.

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:26 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Well....I think there was a little extra help in the problems department. And I'm not totally opposed, unofficially

And people wonder how the US3 get such a "stellar" reputation?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
A lot of people think the earth is 4000 years old: doesn't mean it's semantics or a spade...or true.

Good for them.

Subsidy: a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low. (FREE MONEY)

Ch 11: a method of allowing a corporation to renege on most if not all of it's debts while restructuring the business, for the better it must be said. (FREE MONEY)

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:36 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 36):
And people wonder how the US3 get such a "stellar" reputation?

The same way foreign airlines put pressure on authorities, if they're not one and the same, to outright block competition, whether its slots or facilities access?

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 36):
Ch 11: a method of allowing a corporation to renege on most if not all of it's debts while restructuring the business, for the better it must be said. (FREE MONEY)

That's not even the right definition. Why don't you search a.net as this has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength. You're not treading any new ground here, no matter how far off the reservation you seem to be.

apfpilot · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:38 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 36):
Ch 11: a method of allowing a corporation to renege on most if not all of it's debts while restructuring the business, for the better it must be said. (FREE MONEY)

Not free money, in many cases the equipment that has caused that debt has to be returned or the method of repayment has to be modified, in other cases the debit holder gets a piece of the reorganized company in exchange for forgiveness of the debit. There is nothing free about it. Beyond that the company also takes a hit on their credit and the value of their bonds are degraded as well.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
Subsidy: a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low. (FREE MONEY)

That is free money with no negatives associated with it.

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:44 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
That's not even the right definition. Why don't you search a.net as this has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength. You're not treading any new ground here, no matter how far off the reservation you seem to be.

I know it has and I paraphrased the definition. Rather than saying I am wrong, point out where airlines who enter Ch11 don't get a financial benefit. If it has been discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength, it should be an easy question to answer.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 38):
Not free money, in many cases the equipment that has caused that debt has to be returned or the method of repayment has to be modified, in other cases the debit holder gets a piece of the reorganized company in exchange for forgiveness of the debit. There is nothing free about it. Beyond that the company also takes a hit on their credit and the value of their bonds are degraded as well.

Yes, a piece. Nowhere near the original value. In essence, they are getting a haircut on their debt which means they don't pay as much as they should. It's a discount, a subsidy, a haircut, a financial reorganisation tool...call it whatever you want. It's still a legal way of saving money.

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 39):
Rather than saying I am wrong, point out where airlines who enter Ch11 don't get a financial benefit.

I just don't care. Start a new thread if you want to know the difference.

AVENSAB727 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:46 pm

That was just downright mean. That was very inconsiderate to the passengers.

jmdc861 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:49 pm

As an American, Delta's "behavior" totally embarrasses and disgusts me!

Fact is, no American carrier, least of all Delta, can treat a passenger like almost any foreign flagged carrier out there. It will
be a cold day in hell before I fly an American flagged carrier internationally anywhere. Delta gives plenty of shame to the U.S.

JMDC861

apfpilot · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 39):
Yes, a piece. Nowhere near the original value. In essence, they are getting a haircut on their debt which means they don't pay as much as they should. It's a discount, a subsidy, a haircut, a financial reorganisation tool...call it whatever you want. It's still a legal way of saving money.

I'm done, you're wrong and I'm not taking this discussion any further off topic.

captainmeeerkat · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
I just don't care. Start a new thread if you want to know the difference.

Can't answer so won't answer. Thanks for your input and I hope your day isbetter than all those poor QR passengers at ATL

gk · Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:53 pm

Can't wait for t-report from an A.neter on this flight

gzm · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:06 pm

Having worked at Athens airport I have to say that I loved it! That's what we call "drills" in Greece!
On the other hand, if a jetway had been attached, the passengers would have to walk a long way to passport control wouldn't they? The buses took them exactly to the right entrance, so let's be cool about the whole issue!

jetlanta · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Some things to consider:

1. ATL international gates are scheduled FULL at the time of the QR arrival yesterday.
2. Those schedules are submitted to the terminal operator (not Delta) over three months in advance.
3. The terminal operator assigns the gates, not Delta.
4. Delta's schedules, which were submitted months ago, requires use of all the gates they requested.
5. Nothing about Delta's schedule yesterday was any different than any other day.
6. QR had a normal gate (F7) available to them for the 777-300ER schedule they had requested.
7. A month ago, QR informed the airport that it was bringing in a A380
8. An A380 operation actually takes away TWO gates from the normal operation.
9. The QR A380 has a MUCH longer turn time than the aircraft Delta uses at the same gates.
9. As a result, multiple Delta flights would have been displaced in order to accommodate the QR A380.
10. QR brought in an A380 to make a "point".
11. Delta was under no obligation to inconvenience its own passengers to oblige QR's "point".
12. Let's not forget this:

Quote:
The feud between the two carriers escalated last March when Qatar Airways CEO Akbar Al Baker said he'd launched the Atlanta route "to rub salt into the wounds of Delta."

Delta played by the rules here. The rules exist at all airports to settle these sort of issues. Delta operated its normal schedule at the airport it operates over 1,000 daily departures. QR should have verified the A380 could be accommodated before it was scheduled.

enilria · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 13):
I would be more interested to see how the subsequent days go. A one off could be just that.. But, continuous gate issues would be sabotage.

They just wanted to embarrass them on the inaugural, but embarrassed themselves instead.

Quoting mict (Reply 15):
Did something similar happen with TK? They started ATL about 2 weeks ago, wonder how they are doing.

They are not an official enemy of the hub airline.

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
An airline operates a 380 as a publicity stunt to an airport that is not well set up to handle the 380, and there are problems. Imagine that.

KE operated an A380 for quite a while there. It is not unusual for airports to have very few A380 capable gates for obvious reasons.

D L X · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:23 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 46):
Delta played by the rules here.

That in no way suggests that Delta is not a bad actor.
If this were a game where one team wins and another team loses, I might agree with you. But it's not. It's a group of entities that have to work together for a shared, scarce resource.

It's rude as hell. But as I have no dog in the fight, I find it funny. But I won't at any point in time say "fair is fair."

superjeff · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:29 pm

Quoting Reply 17):
who do you think pays the cost in all bankruptcy cases? When a person abrogates his debt, it is ultimately always passed on to the taxpayer in terms of sunk costs, higher interest rates and other fees or charges. Debt doesn't disappear because a court declares someone bankrupt.

If you disagree with my assessments, please feel free to educate me on where I am off.

Actually, in a Bankrtupcy, the creditors of the debtor take the hit; unless the creditor is a government entity, it won't affect the taxpayer (at least directly). In the case of the US3, all of whom have been through at least one Chapter 11 proceeding (I say "at least one" because at least Continental and US Airways had been through two - plus 2 at America West, 3 at TWA, etc.), the government didn't take a hit (although certain airports might have for past due leases, landing fees, etc. But as others here have said, that's not the same as government subsidies as alleged against the ME3.

winginit · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:35 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
KE operated an A380 for quite a while there. It is not unusual for airports to have very few A380 capable gates for obvious reasons.

Exactly. You could write the exact same scenario depending on timings in DFW if a carrier were to pull a one-off A380 service.

tristarcrazy · Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:48 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 24):
If there is one A380 gate at the airport and it isn't being used for the A380 service to the airport (but rather by a DL A320 which could use X number of other gates), then that is either very bad planning or very bad manners...

The A320 was an international flight so it had to use a gate at E or F concourse which were backed up at that time of day. Also, as stated previously, if an A380 is at this gate, it reduces the use at two other gates.

The airport is modifying another gate at Concourse F for A380 operations, construction has already begun.

Qatar knew what it was getting its self into weeks ago if they flew the A380 into ATL. In addition, they had to taxi to the South Cargo ramp to refuel and then taxi back to the deicing pad for boarding.

lightsaber · Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:07 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 7):

I just read that DL had an A320 at the only A380 gate at ATL. That's absolutely hilarious.

. An E-175 have been even better!

. Oh, precious...

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):
3. The terminal operator assigns the gates, not Delta.

Well that's no fun.

Lightsaber

SonomaFlyer · Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:08 pm

Perhaps folks should actually read Jetlanta's excellent write up of the process at ATL for gate assignments. The fact QR switched things up late in the process and decided to bring in the 380 as a one-off was on them. I think many of you are assigning personal feelings to an impartial scheduling process.

The fault lies with QR, not DL.

DiamondFlyer · Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
. An E-175 have been even better! . Oh, precious...

No, the ultimate would have been a CRJ200...

-DiamondFlyer

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