Will Allegiant Be Grounded?

11725Flyer · Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:11 pm

Federal airline investigators have begun a review of Allegiant Air's operations two years before it was scheduled after several high-profile maintenance scares last summer.

Now this:

The Allegiant Air flight that made an emergency landing shortly after takeoff today at St. Pete-Clearwater International Airport is the same plane that made an emergency landing at the same airport less than 24 hours earlier.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/busines...anding-after-circling-gulf/2279958

Along with the above, there have been many other incidents.

Can Allegiant survive?

n471wn · Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:35 pm

I certainly hope not as I am proudly flying them from OAK to Provo and back this weekend---love those MD-80'! Yes Allegiant will survive!!

coronado · Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:39 pm

They have been posting very high profit margins. This years profit margin will definitely take a substantial hit once the maintenance fines are assessed. But no doubt they will survive.

MaxxFlyer · Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting UPNYGuy (Reply 1):

I hate to say it (because I'm not fan of people losing their jobs), but one can only hope. Spirit is a low-cost airline that would definitely rise to the challenge and be able to cover the capacity lost by the demise of Allegiant.

NK might pickup some of Allegiant's capacity, but not all. That would take quite a few extra aircraft even with G4's less than daily service. Way too many 2x weekly, small city routes that will likely lose all service if G4 is grounded.

hiflyeras · Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:04 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):
I certainly hope not as I am proudly flying them from OAK to Provo and back this weekend---love those MD-80'! Yes Allegiant will survive!!

You're a braver person than I...there's no way I'd ever fly on G4. Been in the airline industry for 35 years and I've never seen an airline that has so many questions about their commitment to safety.

TWA772LR · Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:22 pm

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 5):
You're a braver person than I.

Add me to that list also. AA is back in my good graces, even after 1/3 of their fleet was grounded some years ago, and AF contracting maintenance to China is better than G4s practices.

Engine problems on this many flights, and both of their major fleet types, makes you wonder why they haven't been shut down completely or even have a high profile FAA probe, while a reputable airline like AA has a handful of MD80s miss their check dates and has to ground the fleet of 300 aircraft.

AA737-823 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:41 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):

I certainly hope not as I am proudly flying them from OAK to Provo and back this weekend---love those MD-80'! Yes Allegiant will survive!!

I typically respect you as a poster, but I have to admit... based on this statement, you might not be playing with a full deck!

I don't let loved ones or friends fly Allegiant. I'm not an alarmist, but this is 2016- there is ZERO reasonable explanation for the problems they are having.

xdlx · Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting UPNYGuy (Reply 1):

Sorry to burst your bubble ... NK would not be interested in any of Allegiant network!
Two different models

slcdeltarumd11 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
I typically respect you as a poster, but I have to admit... based on this statement, you might not be playing with a full deck!

I don't let loved ones or friends fly Allegiant. I'm not an alarmist, but this is 2016- there is ZERO reasonable explanation for the problems they are having.

I have flown allegiant many times also. They are under a heavy microscope and few people defend them on here.

Allegiant needs to clean up their act NO QUESTION but their plane age is really decreasing with all the airbuses coming. The problem is generally speaking the mad dogs that will be retired. They need to clean up their act but their planes are not falling out of the sky. They have not had any really close calls, unacceptable YES, but i wouldn't not fly them. Especially for someone in Provo they have no other choices.

n471wn · Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):

Thanks for an intelligent response among the bashers of G4 and you are so right and reasonable. It just amazes me that people on this forum whom one would expect would be more intelligent than the general population have little understanding of mathematical probability and with G4 having hundreds of thousands of flights under their belt and have never skinned a knee of any passenger. So people say I am not playing with a full deck as a personal attack is so much easier than addressing the issue. But I guess these kinds of people wait in line to play the lottery and expect to win--no understanding of mathematical probability

Flaps · Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:37 pm

I would and do not have any hesitation to fly with Allegiant. I do not work for the company but I do work extensively with them (and other carriers) and have considerable insight into their operations. I will say this for probably the 20th time to the bashers and the drama queens, Allegiant is NOT unsafe. Somewhat unreliable yes but certainly not unsafe. There are aspects of the operation that need work but they are primarily related to reliability not safety and those aspects are being addressed. The MD80's are being replaced as quickly as possible. Their spare parts stocking still needs some work and that is being addressed. This is not an airline on the brink. The are very profitable and have both the means and the will to make the corrective actions required.

FWAERJ · Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
Allegiant needs to clean up their act NO QUESTION but their plane age is really decreasing with all the airbuses coming. The problem is generally speaking the mad dogs that will be retired.

Correct. All of the recent major G4 incidents that could have involved MX involved MD-80s. The only major Airbus incident in that timeframe was most likely caused by circumstances beyond any airline's control. Let's keep in mind that the A320 family is the safest single-aisle mainline twinjet ever built in terms of passenger fatalities divided by number of aircraft built.

G4 was going to fly the MD-80s until 2030, then moved up the date to 2020 as part of their push to reduce MX problems. But don't be surprised if the date gets pushed up even sooner. They're already looking for more used Airbuses for delivery between 2017-2018, and by the end of this year, half of G4's flights (but not planes) will be on A320-family aircraft.

I wouldn't be surprised if an FAA fine/settlement includes the discontinuation of MD-80 flying by the end of 2018 - a year after AA phases out the last of theirs.

[Edited 2016-06-02 15:48:48]

IPFreely · Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting 11725Flyer (Thread starter):
Can Allegiant survive?

As I've posted before, a.net has a core group of posters who wake up every morning and rush to their computer to see if an Allegiant plane has crashed so they can put their "I told you so" post on this board as soon as possible. Fortunately this passionate but delusional group is very small. In the real world (away from message boards) Allegiant will not only survive, they will thrive.

Okie · Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:11 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 12):
I wouldn't be surprised if an FAA fine/settlement includes the discontinuation of MD-80 flying by the end of 2018 - a year after AA phases out the last of theirs.

I suspect the driver on the MD-80's will be the inerting issue with fuel tanks.
The problem appears from my perspective is that G4 seems to have problems diagnosing the Mx issues. The MD-80 is an old dog and there should not be many new tricks appear in a fleet operation.

The A320 family is not new either but new to G4, however one would think there would be enough knowledge base out there to correctly diagnose Mx issues.

Personally I would not have an issue getting on a G4 aircraft at this time, however they do not fly out of OKC to any place I would normally go so that is easy to say.

Okie

[Edited 2016-06-02 16:18:28]

n92r03 · Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:22 pm

No, they won't be grounded.

I am not interested in flying them. Somewhat because of the safety aspect, but mostly because of the limited resources they appear to have and utilize in their operations. A plane goes tech and one is possibly stuck for a couple days if it happens at an outstation. That mess I'm not interested in to save minimal dollars.

Add to that the somewhat "junior varsity" way of doing things and it just looks like a "you get what you pay for operation". Case in point, emergency landing yesterday at PIE in one their Airbii, then today the same aircraft N228NV has a mech (hydraulic?) issue and returns to PIE as an emergency landing at appx 09:00, then at appx 16:00 pax board the same aircraft only to be removed so the aircraft can do a "test flight".

No thanks-

11725Flyer · Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:25 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 13):
As I've posted before, a.net has a core group of posters who wake up every morning and rush to their computer to see if an Allegiant plane has crashed so they can put their "I told you so" post on this board as soon as possible. Fortunately this passionate but delusional group is very small. In the real world (away from message boards) Allegiant will not only survive, they will thrive.

Count me as someone who is not "delusional."

If you noticed, this was only my fourth post - I am not what you call a "core group." I simply thought it was worth discussing.

[Edited 2016-06-02 16:33:44]

MaxxFlyer · Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:15 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 13):
As I've posted before, a.net has a core group of posters who wake up every morning and rush to their computer to see if an Allegiant plane has crashed so they can put their "I told you so" post on this board as soon as possible. Fortunately this passionate but delusional group is very small. In the real world (away from message boards) Allegiant will not only survive, they will thrive.

I'm not seeing anyone discuss a crash. Mainstream media is starting to pick up stories about G4's maintenance problems. They seem to be repeating the same errors over and over. That's not coincidence, it's in the company culture of skimping on funds.

KBUF · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:02 am

Considering G4's CEO was formerly the CEO of ValuJet, I could certainly see it happening. Some people never learn!

LAX772LR · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:19 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 10):
the general population have little understanding of mathematical probability and with G4 having hundreds of thousands of flights under their belt and have never skinned a knee of any passenger

....anyone else see the irony in this statement?

Mir · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:25 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
Especially for someone in Provo they have no other choices.

Except for the drive to SLC, which only takes an hour.

-Mir

ltbewr · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:37 am

It seems to me that the FAA and other regulators of USA based airlines may not be doing their job as they really should. They may need to do more frequent and through inspections at airlines to seek potential problems before a loss. Sadly, like much of our government at all levels, budget cuts have meant not as much inspecting as perhaps should be done.

One would have to wonder about the culture at Allegiant as to maintenance, putting holding down costs to boost quarterly profits above safety. Perhaps too the airlines insurers need to step in to demand higher than government minimums or have to pay larger premiums or deductibles to improve mx attitudes.

OB1504 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:06 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):
It seems to me that the FAA and other regulators of USA based airlines may not be doing their job as they really should. They may need to do more frequent and through inspections at airlines to seek potential problems before a loss. Sadly, like much of our government at all levels, budget cuts have meant not as much inspecting as perhaps should be done.

Historically, the FAA hasn't really cared until people have died.

727LOVER · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:22 am

News story from WFLA-TV

http://wfla.com/2016/06/02/allegiant...-clearwater-for-emergency-landing/

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 15):
Case in point, emergency landing yesterday at PIE in one their Airbii, then today the same aircraft N228NV has a mech (hydraulic?) issue and returns to PIE as an emergency landing at appx 09:00, then at appx 16:00 pax board the same aircraft only to be removed so the aircraft can do a "test flight".

What I heard was that was a mistake, they should not have been boarded

rbavfan · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):

If the problems are the mad dogs then why did they almost crash an A319 on go around in Mesa?

jetjeanes · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:42 am

same ceo when at valujet only they are 10 times worse,, they are an accident that will eventually happen, Its just a matter of time.

n471wn · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:47 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 24):

You have no idea of what you are talking about as this was not an almost crash (which of course you knew) and you are not interested in anything but bashing G4

n471wn · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:53 am

Quoting jetjeanes (Reply 25):

All airlines have accidents in their future and G4 is no better and no worse---statistically airlines that have the longest safety record are the most likely to have an accident and for the hundredth time the Everglades accident was NOT the fault of Valujet

mtnwest1979 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:54 am

I am connecting Great Lakes to Allegiant next week. Probably cancel ZK flight and miss the G4 mx cancellation lol. JK about the whole thing.
Probably stay flying in some capacity until the seemingly inevitable occurs, then FAA will get serious......

n92r03 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:45 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 23):
Quoting n92r03 (Reply 15):
Case in point, emergency landing yesterday at PIE in one their Airbii, then today the same aircraft N228NV has a mech (hydraulic?) issue and returns to PIE as an emergency landing at appx 09:00, then at appx 16:00 pax board the same aircraft only to be removed so the aircraft can do a "test flight".

What I heard was that was a mistake, they should not have been boarded

10-4, I heard the same thing, but that is what I'm referring to. Just too many mistakes.issues for my liking.

wjcandee · Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:57 pm

I agree with Flaps. It appears that the Florida maintenance shop issues have management's attention, and it appears that they are now willing to spend the money to improve the reliability of their operation. I also agree that this is primarily a reliability issue, taking into account that every precautionary landing occurs because of something that, in combination with other things, could be more problematic. Management plainly wants this drumbeat of negative press to go away now, because it likely has made a difference in Pinellas County, and they appear to be taking meaningful steps in that direction.

backseatdriver · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:23 pm

Where there's smoke there's fire. There's a trend here to label anyone who has safety concerns with G4 as an "Allegiant basher", when in actuality I'm confident that nobody on here wants to see a large smoking hole in the ground with a sunshine tail sticking out. If you want to continue flying them in spite of what is at the very least a non-exemplary maintenance record, that's your business. The rest of us will continue to warn people who don't know any better.

jimbo737 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:31 pm

Why is this a surprise to anyone?

Allegiant was started by and continues to be run by the same people who brought you Valujet.

Longtime industry insiders will recall Valujet suffered all kinds of seemingly "insignificant" issues in the months leading up to 592. It all boiled down to poor maintenance and training practices.

Tigers never change their stripes

If people are prepared to risk their wellbeing to save $50, that's their perogative. I wouldn't put my pet goldfish on an Allegiant aircraft.

wjcandee · Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting jimbo737 (Reply 32):
592. It all boiled down to poor maintenance and training practices.

That is an absolutely-incorrect statement.

But believe what you want to believe. That's the joy of a group discussion.

Funny how Allegiant was a darling on these forums until recently.

It's a weird thing about how so many members want to appear knowledgeable by "predicting" stuff so they can be acknowledged to be correct, which leads to a herd mentality on many issues, completely devoid of the nuance that would befit an intelligent discussion of the issues among posters, who understand that this is a complex industy.

"Allegiant is great!" "Allegiant is going to have a crash!" "Allegiant is ValuJet"
"Egyptair was terror!" "Egyptair wasn't terror, and only bad people would say so!" "We don't know what Egyptair is!"

apfpilot · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:02 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
They have not had any really close calls,

The engine failure on go around and the jammed stab both were pretty close calls. One could also argue that the fuel diversion was as well.

rajincajun01 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:13 pm

It would be interesting to see what happens to PIE and SFB if G4 is ever grounded. Both airports have proven there is demand to fly out of their airport over the city's bigger airports. Would one of the big four enter the market at either airport?

rbavfan · Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:32 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 26):

Not true. The engine failed on go around and they came really close to hitting the ground trying to recover. Other pilots in AZ noted they should have been better trained for this kind of failure. That shows training needs tightened up. Also an engine failure on a newer A319 that does not have a history of that type of failure shows they are not doing good at engine upkeep. So if noting something that happened, was widely reported on in Phoenix. Including friends that work at the airport is bashing. Then I wonder, based on your accusing everyone here of bashing them, if you work for Allegiant.

JBLUA320 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 34):
The engine failure on go around and the jammed stab both were pretty close calls. One could also argue that the fuel diversion was as well.

If that's so, then it looks like they have trained their pilots well.

Quoting jimbo737 (Reply 32):

Longtime industry insiders will recall Valujet suffered all kinds of seemingly "insignificant" issues in the months leading up to 592. It all boiled down to poor maintenance and training practices.

592 had nothing to do with maintenance. Negligence more than anything else.

I'm by no means a G4 fan, but let's keep it in perspective...

apfpilot · Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 37):

If that's so, then it looks like they have trained their pilots well.

The pilots in any number of accidents were well trained, until the failure of the aircraft system exceeded their training.

G-CIVP · Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:16 pm

It was a hydraulic leak. That isn't grounds to ground an airline. Hydralic leaks happen all the time.

apfpilot · Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:37 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 39):
It was a hydraulic leak. That isn't grounds to ground an airline. Hydralic leaks happen all the time.

If this was in isolation you'd be correct. However the concern (for me at least) with G4 is the pattern of issues and the way they have been handled, along with the person at the helm of the company and their past history. I have close friends who fly for G4 and I worry about their safety. I have asked my loved ones to avoid flying on them despite the fact that causes them financial penalties if they want to visit their grandchildren. Where there is smoke there is fire usually plays out especially in this industry of ours.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:47 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 39):
It was a hydraulic leak. That isn't grounds to ground an airline. Hydralic leaks happen all the time.

When its allegiant people on here jump on it. When another airline has this, its routine not an issue. LOL they are under a microscope on here. Again i think they need to be forced to change but they do not have planes falling out of the sky as people are saying on here.

n92r03 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:00 pm

Quoting rajincajun01 (Reply 35):
t would be interesting to see what happens to PIE and SFB if G4 is ever grounded. Both airports have proven there is demand to fly out of their airport over the city's bigger airports. Would one of the big four enter the market at either airport?

Most likely not at PIE. Before the days of G4 there were other carriers that I can't remember other than some Canadian service, but not many.

G4 and PIE is the definition of having all eggs in one basket.

LAX772LR · Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:25 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 41):
When its allegiant people on here jump on it.

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why that is? Seriously.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 41):
Again i think they need to be forced to change but they do not have planes falling out of the sky

Yet. But they've come freakishly close at least twice, just in the last year alone.

OA412 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Except for the drive to SLC, which only takes an hour.

Yeah not really sure how anyone could argue that people living in Provo have no choice but to fly Allegiant...

Quoting backseatdriver (Reply 31):
There's a trend here to label anyone who has safety concerns with G4 as an "Allegiant basher", when in actuality I'm confident that nobody on here wants to see a large smoking hole in the ground with a sunshine tail sticking out.

Agreed. The insinuation that anyone is hoping they'll crash and kill everyone on board is tasteless.

rajincajun01 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 42):
Most likely not at PIE. Before the days of G4 there were other carriers that I can't remember other than some Canadian service, but not many.

G4 and PIE is the definition of having all eggs in one basket.

ATA, USA3000, and Southeast all had operations with CanJet being the Canadian service.

Tourism in St. Pete was not quite as big as it is now. WN will never go for it being so close to TPA. UA wouldn't be too interested either. Maybe a Charlotte flight on AA or regional jets to ATL on DL. DL already uses 757 and 767 to ATL from TPA.

PIE had 1.5 million passengers last year. Either someone will pick up some of the slack at PIE or grow at TPA hopefully

visakow · Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:50 pm

I've flown Allegiant on two trips in my life and both were to LAS out of BLI. 1st was Aug 2009 on MD-80's and second was A319 back in Aug 2015. Thoroughly enjoyed both flights and getting to see upper Puget Sound from the air. The Airbus was especially nice and windows better suited for a 6 foot adult male. I worked on Boeing 737's for 2 1/2 years but more and more am starting to appreciate the Airbus's. MX wise haven't worked yet but have done a couple walk thru's on Jet Blue A321 and really liked interior and E/E bay over Boeing.

I think G4 will be just fine and even better off once they get rid of the MD-80's and would gladly fly them again next time I get the chance.

Maverick623 · Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:51 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 37):
I'm by no means a G4 fan, but let's keep it in perspective...

Perspective.

G4 operates an average of 750 flights a week, according to Wikipedia. That's an average of 107/day, but that's not a good stat because they don't operate daily into most markets.

By comparison, it takes Delta less than a day to hit 750... just in ATL.

How many engine failures have they had during a go-around? On a newer engine? How many times have they dispatched a plane to a closed airport with razor-thin fuel margins? How many times, have they fired a pilot for ordering an evacuation IN AN EMERGENCY?

But yes, let's keep this in perspective. They haven't put a smoking hole in the ground yet, therefore they never will.

usflyguy · Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:06 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
Allegiant needs to clean up their act NO QUESTION but their plane age is really decreasing with all the airbuses coming. The problem is generally speaking the mad dogs that will be retired.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 12):
Correct. All of the recent major G4 incidents that could have involved MX involved MD-80s. The only major Airbus incident in that timeframe was most likely caused by circumstances beyond any airline's control. Let's keep in mind that the A320 family is the safest single-aisle mainline twinjet ever built in terms of passenger fatalities divided by number of aircraft built.

So, why aren't DL and AA having the same issues, don't they fly far more MDs than Allegiant? It's not an issue w/the aircraft, it's an issue with the airline.

mcg · Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:23 pm

Actually I'd love to see some data on 'incidents' (for lack of a better term) at G4 compared to other airlines. In Denver there will sometimes be a note in the Post that an airliner diverted to DEN to an issue, and it's all very calm, never turns up here. We do know that all airlines have incidents and I'd like to see a comparison of performance between operators.

G-CIVP · Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:49 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 40):

If this was in isolation you'd be correct. However the concern (for me at least) with G4 is the pattern of issues and the way they have been handled, along with the person at the helm of the company and their past history. I have close friends who fly for G4 and I worry about their safety. I have asked my loved ones to avoid flying on them despite the fact that causes them financial penalties if they want to visit their grandchildren. Where there is smoke there is fire usually plays out especially in this industry of ours.

All airlines have issues with their aircraft and fly with a number of accepted deferred defects everyday. In the main, these defects will have been (risk) assessed with suitably qualified individuals, usually licenced engineers and independently signed off. If you have concerns with Allegaint, I would like to see the evidence detailed here.

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