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C010T3
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AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:43 am

It seems that Air France will axe BSB, since all flights have been zeroed out effective September 13th.
 
incitatus
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:11 am

Ahhh, interesting! I have it booked for early August in economy and I am hoping for extra room to stretch in a somewhat light loaded cabin. I've also been concerned about AF axing it before my trip! Now I know I'm safe.  
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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reffado
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:31 am

I expected them to cut capacity first, but guess not. Once again, TP is the sole European carrier at BSB. Bet they're not sad about it, either.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:41 am

Quoting reffado (Reply 2):
I expected them to cut capacity first

What are they flying there now?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
N415XJ
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
What are they flying there now?

772s apparently. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20160602/1130Z/LFPG/SBBR
 
SCQ83
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:33 am

I asked for this flight not long ago, for me it was a candidate to be chopped. Air France started that route in summer 2014, at the peak of the Brazilian boom. I would say it was one of those routes at times when "everything goes"

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr...ir-france-klm-expands-in-brazil-1/

It also seems that IB has lost interest in starting MAD-BSB. Probably waiting for better times ahead.

In any case the amount of long-haul flights Brazil is losing is quite shocking. BSB alone is losing three connections soon (CDG, MCO and MIA with LATAM).
 
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PW100
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:38 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 1):
Now I know I'm safe

French strikes are not on your list of concerns . . .   
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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reffado
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:52 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
BSB alone is losing three connections soon (CDG, MCO and MIA with LATAM).

Not to mention ATL that was lost earlier in the year, with DL.

I wonder how long AA will stick around.
 
dcajet
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:02 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
Air France started that route in summer 2014, at the peak of the Brazilian boom. I would say it was one of those routes at times when "everything goes"

By summer 2014 the Brazilian boom was already a goner. The peak was around 2010.

AF was a bit late introducing this flight when the party was almost over.

Quoting reffado (Reply 7):
I wonder how long AA will stick around.

It all depends on how fast the economy picks up, but LF have been dismal on the route, so I suppose it won't be a surprise if the axe falls on this one too. CNF, GRU and GIG are the only stations that are safe. Back to square one for AA it may be.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
winGl3t
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:02 pm

Quoting reffado (Reply 7):

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
BSB alone is losing three connections soon (CDG, MCO and MIA with LATAM).

Not to mention ATL that was lost earlier in the year, with DL.

Also lost GOL and Aerolineas Argentinas flights to BUE
 
MAH4546
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:04 am

Quoting dcajet (Reply 8):
Quoting reffado (Reply 7):
I wonder how long AA will stick around.

It all depends on how fast the economy picks up, but LF have been dismal on the route, so I suppose it won't be a surprise if the axe falls on this one too. CNF, GRU and GIG are the only stations that are safe. Back to square one for AA it may be.

BSBMIA is a bigger local market than GIGMIA. It's safe I'm sure. It is not a secondary market.

MAO is probably safe because it relies on U.S.-originating travel which isn't hurting.

[Edited 2016-06-03 21:05:17]
a.
 
goldorak
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:02 am

Confirmed. Last flight on Sept 11.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...-brasilia-service-in-mid-sep-2016/

[Edited 2016-06-04 02:26:31]
 
commavia
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:45 pm

Over the course of the rise and fall of the Brazilian economy in the last decade, we've seen numerous carriers attempt non-GRU/GIG markets from nontraditional (at least for Brazil) gateways around the world.

It now appears that we're returning back to the market environment before the rise, which is to say an environment in which the only gateways likely able to support flying to non-GRU/GIG Brazil are MIA and LIS.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
BSBMIA is a bigger local market than GIGMIA. It's safe I'm sure. It is not a secondary market.

I tend to agree. Given that AA now has the nonstop BSB-Florida (and, for that matter, nonstop BSB-U.S.) market all to itself, and especially if/when AA and Latam get an ATI/JV to be able to jointly schedule and sell the flight, it seems like the MIA-BSB route should be able to at least handle a daily 757.
 
dcajet
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:30 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
BSBMIA is a bigger local market than GIGMIA. It's safe I'm sure. It is not a secondary market.

The saving grace for BSB - from a Brazil perspective - is that the per capita income is the highest in the country, given the relatively good paying federal and bureaucracy jobs. That means disposable income for traveling, besides government travel. However, it lacks the world class attractions of Rio de Janeiro for the leisure traveler, and the corporate traffic at GRU and to a lesser degree, GIG. RIo also has traditional air links to NYC and Europe (beyond LIS) that are simply not existent in BSB.

While an interesting place to visit for what it represents and the architecture and urban planning, it lacks the appeal of other destinations in Brazil. Two days there and one'd got to move on, imo.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
SCQ83
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
I tend to agree. Given that AA now has the nonstop BSB-Florida (and, for that matter, nonstop BSB-U.S.) market all to itself, and especially if/when AA and Latam get an ATI/JV to be able to jointly schedule and sell the flight, it seems like the MIA-BSB route should be able to at least handle a daily 757.

There is still Copa flying to PTY and they have a good coverage of the US (at least the largest cities). Also some traffic will backtrack to GRU.

I.e. BSB-LAX return for August is $972 with Copa via PTY and $1,304 with AA via MIA (similar travel times).... and $613 with Azul/UA via GRU and IAH (!!!... it makes you wonder).
 
commavia
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:56 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 13):
The saving grace for BSB - from a Brazil perspective - is that the per capita income is the highest in the country, given the relatively good paying federal and bureaucracy jobs. That means disposable income for traveling, besides government travel. However, it lacks the world class attractions of Rio de Janeiro for the leisure traveler, and the corporate traffic at GRU and to a lesser degree, GIG. RIo also has traditional air links to NYC and Europe (beyond LIS) that are simply not existent in BSB.

While an interesting place to visit for what it represents and the architecture and urban planning, it lacks the appeal of other destinations in Brazil. Two days there and one'd got to move on, imo.

As a recent tourist to Brasilia myself, I'd agree - it's obviously not a tourist draw that requires much time, or any if one isn't so much into history or architecture. It's obviously not a draw anywhere close to Rio or even the northeast. But, as you said, what's driving traffic into BSB isn't tourism, anyway - it's government and business (which are sometimes one in the same).

And even for as far as Brazil has fallen in the last 18 months, it seems hard for me to imagine that BSB - the capital of one of the world's most populous countries and still relatively largest economies - cannot support even one single daily flight to the U.S. And if there is to be just one single daily flight to the U.S., MIA is the obvious gateway (again similar to LIS in Europe).

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 14):
There is still Copa flying to PTY and they have a good coverage of the US (at least the largest cities).

Indeed - thus why I said that AA "has the nonstop BSB-Florida ... market all to itself ..." (emphasis added)
 
dcajet
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:48 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
And even for as far as Brazil has fallen in the last 18 months, it seems hard for me to imagine that BSB - the capital of one of the world's most populous countries and still relatively largest economies - cannot support even one single daily flight to the U.S. And if there is to be just one single daily flight to the U.S., MIA is the obvious gateway (again similar to LIS in Europe).

Let alone support flights to Argentina, its Mercosur partner and neighbor. Both AR and G3 had to cancel their EZE-BSB services in light of the soft demand. LATAM is the only one left on the route.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
OB1504
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:17 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
Given that AA now has the nonstop BSB-Florida (and, for that matter, nonstop BSB-U.S.) market all to itself, and especially if/when AA and Latam get an ATI/JV to be able to jointly schedule and sell the flight, it seems like the MIA-BSB route should be able to at least handle a daily 757.

I don't see AA and LA getting a joint venture approved because of how much of the market they would dominate. Maybe UA + AV tried to get one too, but even then AA + LA would be the clear market leader.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:07 am

BSB is a strong domestic hub because of geography rather than pure business activity. The fact that it does not have a single service to other Latam hubs like SCL and LIM of course, produce an interesting statistic... it could be faster go to MIA than to LIM, and Brasilia is one of the original 4 cities with (of course) an American Official Visa Post (the Embassy).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
BSBMIA is a bigger local market than GIGMIA. It's safe I'm sure. It is not a secondary market.

It is larger, but based on one direction and mostly leisure.
BSB got the benefit of the huge increase on the size of the Brazilian Government and the transfer of thousands of employees to the city as well as thousands of new jobs.

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):

As a recent tourist to Brasilia myself, I'd agree - it's obviously not a tourist draw that requires much time, or any if one isn't so much into history or architecture. It's obviously not a draw anywhere close to Rio or even the northeast. But, as you said, what's driving traffic into BSB isn't tourism, anyway - it's government and business (which are sometimes one in the same).

You don't know Brasilia for sure. The fact that DL and AF can't sustain their services just show how is based this secondary market. Even with strong connections (of course, we would not include Rio and Sao Paulo and this removes almost 40% of the traffic to/from BSB!) it was hard to keep a profitable service as AF probably desires.
It is not business oriented, it is leisure oriented and based on BSB side and connections. And also that's why (with the Brazilian Economic Downturn) yields are so depressed. BSB does not attract foreigners and if bankers want to visit the Central Bank, they also go to Sao Paulo and go thru Sao Paulo. If manufacturers want to talk to the government, they go also to visit their operations, and more than 99,9% have their Brazilian HQ outside of Brasilia.
And Those flying business from BSB... want the best cabin and connect rather than fly on a 752.

Besides that... there's limited cargo demand to BSB, and absolutely no regular cargo out of BSB due to the lack of the following industries: Pharma, Tech, Fruits, Fish, Gems, Money Bills or anything usual (and valuable) to air cargo.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:28 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
But, as you said, what's driving traffic into BSB isn't tourism, anyway - it's government and business (which are sometimes one in the same).

Oh well, I'd say what drives traffic in BSB is graft and corruption. And more recently the lawsuits associated with them. Brasilia, and as a consequence, BSB, should be significantly smaller were the Brazilian Federal Gov't run properly.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
BSB is a strong domestic hub because of geography rather than pure business activity.

Geography too, but BSB benefits from the inordinate amount of travel between it and the state capitals by the government. Thus its overstated domestic significance and its now negligible international service.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
BSBMIA is a bigger local market than GIGMIA. It's safe I'm sure. It is not a secondary market.

I understand you are looking at traffic data, but I'll tell you: This does not make sense. Rio's economy is vastly bigger, Rio's potential to generate tourists to Florida is bigger, Rio has a very significant diaspora in South Florida, and despite its issues, Rio is the premier tourist destination in Brazil.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
dcajet
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 19):
Thus its overstated domestic significance and its now negligible international service.

I find it interesting that FOR, SSA, CNF and REC (besides the classics FLN, POA, GIG & GRU) can sustain multiple carriers, direct service to EZE/AEP but not BSB. I understand that the above is mostly leisure and one direction (Argentinians going to Brazil on holiday) but makes you wonder.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
C010T3
Topic Author
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:56 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 20):
I find it interesting that FOR, SSA, CNF and REC (besides the classics FLN, POA, GIG & GRU) can sustain multiple carriers, direct service to EZE/AEP but not BSB. I understand that the above is mostly leisure and one direction (Argentinians going to Brazil on holiday) but makes you wonder.

AFAIK all carriers have withdrawn service on BUE-BHZ route. FOR and REC only sustain service, because their states have come up with tax breaks on fuel as subsidy for international services, which is why there are weekly flights to EZE and MIA.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:13 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 19):
I understand you are looking at traffic data, but I'll tell you: This does not make sense. Rio's economy is vastly bigger, Rio's potential to generate tourists to Florida is bigger, Rio has a very significant diaspora in South Florida, and despite its issues, Rio is the premier tourist destination in Brazil.

it makes sense. Traffic between Rio and the States is more evenly spread out. JFK, MIA and MCO are all very large local markets around the same size.

Traffic from BSB is highly concentrated to just Miami, which is around three-fourths of the U.S.-BSB market.
a.
 
dcajet
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:24 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 21):
AFAIK all carriers have withdrawn service on BUE-BHZ route

AU operates AEP-CNF-AEP; 5x week with the E190AR.

AU 2264 AEP 06:05 CNF 09:15 13567
AU 2265 CNF 09:55 AEP 13:25 13567

After pruning BSB and CWB, my understanding is that AR is quite pleased with how the Brazil routes are performing. GIG and GRU got an increase in frequencies and both cities got an upgauge in the shape of the 738 from the 73G; POA got an upgauge from the E190 to the 73G.

AR's new CEO is actually Brazilian. She was with GM do Brasil before being with GM de Argentina, and before that cut its teeth with O Boticario before heading to the US for her MBA. She did her undergraduate work at PUC Curitiba.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1956
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:03 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 23):
AR's new CEO is actually Brazilian. She was with GM do Brasil before being with GM de Argentina, and before that cut its teeth with O Boticario before heading to the US for her MBA. She did her undergraduate work at PUC Curitiba.

I don't get how people got caught up on the idea that she is not Argentinian. Can't she be both?
 
dcajet
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RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:32 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 24):
I don't get how people got caught up on the idea that she is not Argentinian. Can't she be both?

She is now. She wasn't until she had to get the Argentinian citizenship, as it is a requirement for the job of CEO of a state owned enterprise.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:07 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 25):

She is now. She wasn't until she had to get the Argentinian citizenship, as it is a requirement for the job of CEO of a state owned enterprise.

I have no information regarding when she de jure acquired citizenship, but her parents were Argentinian, therefore she has always been de facto Argentinian.
 
incitatus
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AF: CDG-BSB Zeroed Out

Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
it makes sense. Traffic between Rio and the States is more evenly spread out. JFK, MIA and MCO are all very large local markets around the same size.

Traffic from BSB is highly concentrated to just Miami, which is around three-fourths of the U.S.-BSB market.

This still does not explain how BSB-MIA can be so special. Beyond politicians drawing cash from corruption schemes to spend in Miami, I am not aware of any close connection between Brasilia and Miami.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal

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