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seahawk
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RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:10 am

If you are a launch customer you get a nice discount for the risk of having to deal with teething problems. If you do not want those, do not be a launch customer.
 
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EPA001
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RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:50 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 98):
Perhaps QR are just trying to put some pressure on Airbus.

Since QR has little or no other options I guess that is what it is.
 
Amiga500
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RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:58 am

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 99):
Another new car I ordered multiple decades ago, was an Italian number, with an exotic engine. The dealer advised it was essential to stop and start the engine with the front wheels in the straight ahead position, otherwise very expensive engine issues would result, which were not covered by the warranty. I cancelled the order.

Say what now?

I've had some strange things happen with cars - but thats a new one.


Did they explain the reasoning?
 
Amiga500
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RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:05 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 100):
If you are a launch customer you get a nice discount for the risk of having to deal with teething problems. If you do not want those, do not be a launch customer.

Exactly.

Airbus shouldn't be shy about explaining this to Ackbar Al Idiot. Even in public.

Qatar needs Airbus more than Airbus needs Qatar.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:19 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Airbus latest order book update (May) doesn't show a cancellation. Maybe next month, or maybe 'walked away' was used in a different context, or maybe this news is just hot air.


Update.

June order book also doesn't show a cancellation. Is it fair to assume that 'walks away' meant they won't take the first aircraft, and Airbus will build another one? Otherwise the order would have been canceled by now. Rumor has it IndiGo will take QR's first aircraft.

Meanwhile FR24 shows MSN 6946, QR 5th A320neo, as being online. As the upgraded engines are now available, the aircraft has probably been equipped with its power plants. We're probably back to business as usual.

So much for the drama.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
StTim
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:34 am

Compared to some ealy frame stories you hear - usually many years after introduction - this really is a storm in a tea cup.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:57 am

Maybe he should walk away and then watch his airline get overtaken by all of the other Middle Eastern carriers as Airbus and Boeing refuse to waste time with him in the future. There is something seriously wrong with this guy. Maybe Airbus should just say "ok, your orders for the A320 neo are all cancelled" and this will allow them to improve their delivery times to other airlines. Qatar can be the sacrificial lamb/goat.
 
hibtastic
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:31 am

John Leahy was asked yesterday about QR switching to the 737 and he was very tactful when answering, saying "they could always switch engines". Reading between the lines though, it seemed as though he was a bit fed up with AAB's attitude too. Not much more he can say really given how big a customer AAB is for Airbus.
 
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PW100
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Re: RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:24 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Update.

June order book also doesn't show a cancellation. Is it fair to assume that 'walks away' meant they won't take the first aircraft, and Airbus will build another one? Otherwise the order would have been canceled by now. Rumor has it IndiGo will take QR's first aircraft.

Meanwhile FR24 shows MSN 6946, QR 5th A320neo, as being online. As the upgraded engines are now available, the aircraft has probably been equipped with its power plants. We're probably back to business as usual.

So much for the drama.


Right . . . :-)

PW100 wrote:
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):Airbus latest order book update doesn't show a cancellation. Maybe next month, or maybe 'walked away' was used in a different context, or maybe this news is just hot air.

Perhaps he just walked away from this frame (to make a statement), and will take a later (better) frame down the road - just like ANA walked away from several early 787s without cancelling orders.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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zeke
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:29 pm

A7-BCT had an engine failure in flight this week, ops normal. The A320neo no engine failures, let's walk away from them.

I think the saying goes, empty ships make the most noise.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
alyusuph
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:42 pm

I would love to see NGs and MAXes in QR livery, not because of hatred to the 320, but because of the increased dominance of the Buses.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
n471wn
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:02 pm

ANA walked away from a bunch of "terrible teen" 787's
 
Planesmart
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Re: RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:59 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Quoting Planesmart (Reply 99):Another new car I ordered multiple decades ago, was an Italian number, with an exotic engine. The dealer advised it was essential to stop and start the engine with the front wheels in the straight ahead position, otherwise very expensive engine issues would result, which were not covered by the warranty. I cancelled the order.
Say what now?

I've had some strange things happen with cars - but thats a new one.


Did they explain the reasoning?

The power steering pump was 'driven' off the camshaft. Other than in the wheels straight ahead position, the power steering pump placed a high load on the camshaft at start up. So high, the engine could be damaged internally.
 
Jetstar315
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:10 am

I wonder how long it will be before Airbus and Boeing both say to QR:
"Sorry Mr Al Bakar -but we don't wish to do business with you anymore"
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:16 am

Jetstar315 wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before Airbus and Boeing both say to QR:
"Sorry Mr Al Bakar -but we don't wish to do business with you anymore"


Probably never.
 
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speedbored
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:46 am

Jetstar315 wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before Airbus and Boeing both say to QR:
"Sorry Mr Al Bakar -but we don't wish to do business with you anymore"

Well the "we have a contract" comments from JL at the Farnborough sales round-up suggest that Airbus might have lost their patience with him and might now be doing things strictly according to contract, rather than indulging him.
 
Pelly
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:45 am

There is a lot of misinformation on the issue of QR and the A320NEOs and the media also tend to concentrate on negative soundbites that generate more retweets and more clicks. During FIA 2016 AAB actually said that he believes the issues will be resolved by the end of the year and that he is looking forward to accept delivery later in the year, yes he gave other soundbites too that got more attention. He also said that the 737NG that are being negotiated are for other ventures (QR has a leasing arm), keep in mind that QR has 30 options on the A320NEO and is looking at TOPPING UP (as opposed to cancelling the existing A320NEO order) its narrow body orders depending on price and availability.

QR issues are not only to do with the engine, and Airbus is working on the issues brought up. One of the big issues QR has is the hydraulic temperature issues which will not be resolved until September. There are operating conditions such as temperatures that affect QR more than other operators for example QR has had fuel overheating issues in the summer with their A320 CEOs when operating short intra-Gulf flights which necessitates electrical load shedding through switching off the galley amongst other things.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:03 am

I don't think Airbus people throw red carpets at Al Baker because they like him.
Qatar owns the city of London and stakes in strategic European companies, they are one of the best clients and they control major airlines like BA, Iberia and Latam.. So if your business clients throw you fancy dinner parties at you and send you birthday cards, good on you. That's definitely not the way business is done in the Gulf. It's more like my way or no way.
 
StTim
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:06 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
I don't think Airbus people throw red carpets at Al Baker because they like him.
Qatar owns the city of London and stakes in strategic European companies, they are one of the best clients and they control major airlines like BA, Iberia and Latam.. So if your business clients throw you fancy dinner parties at you and send you birthday cards, good on you. That's definitely not the way business is done in the Gulf. It's more like my way or no way.


I think you over estimate the power of Qatar and AAB in particular - just like those above understimate the impact of telling AAB where to go.
 
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enzo011
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:19 am

Jetstar315 wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before Airbus and Boeing both say to QR:
"Sorry Mr Al Bakar -but we don't wish to do business with you anymore"



QR still provides good business for both OEMs, so I doubt they will tell them where to stick it. But QR, and to an extent EK, have shown Airbus that they are only loyal to a brand where it suits their own needs. In the same way both companies, or at least Airbus having been burned by the EK A350 cancellation, should have realised it is nothing more than a business relationship where you should get the best for your business. With QR not flashing the cash as much any longer (with the need to operate as a proper business thanks to the US3) as well I don't see how the OEMs will treat them as a special client, but just as a client in future.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:11 am

enzo011 wrote:
Jetstar315 wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before Airbus and Boeing both say to QR:
"Sorry Mr Al Bakar -but we don't wish to do business with you anymore"



QR still provides good business for both OEMs, so I doubt they will tell them where to stick it. But QR, and to an extent EK, have shown Airbus that they are only loyal to a brand where it suits their own needs. In the same way both companies, or at least Airbus having been burned by the EK A350 cancellation, should have realised it is nothing more than a business relationship where you should get the best for your business. With QR not flashing the cash as much any longer (with the need to operate as a proper business thanks to the US3) as well I don't see how the OEMs will treat them as a special client, but just as a client in future.


I assume that neither Airbus nor Boeing expected any brand loyalty from most airlines including the ME3.
Regarding the flashing of cash, IMO Qatar does not bother about the opinions of the US3. I would assume reclining oil revenues could put some pressure on Qatar that they better earn some money like Emirates does.
 
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enzo011
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:46 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I assume that neither Airbus nor Boeing expected any brand loyalty from most airlines including the ME3.
Regarding the flashing of cash, IMO Qatar does not bother about the opinions of the US3. I would assume reclining oil revenues could put some pressure on Qatar that they better earn some money like Emirates does.



While it is obvious that the ME3 needs both OEMs to fulfill their aircraft needs I think that at least 2 of the ME3 have shown that they are out for themselves and I think that Airbus and Boeing will have this in mind when dealing with them in future. Is there any doubt that EK will cancel their 777X order if they have a better offer on the table that fits their needs?

Also, I thought Qatar deals mostly with gas and not oil so they would not have been too badly influenced by the drop in oil price. I am open to be corrected though. You could argue that it is strange that an airline that supposedly doesn't worry about cash or spending it seems to make some strange financial decisions in the past few years.

Edited to add a point.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:30 pm

enzo011 wrote:
Also, I thought Qatar deals mostly with gas and not oil so they would not have been too badly influenced by the drop in oil price. I am open to be corrected though.


If you are talking about the future, you are right. Oil declining, petering out around 2023, and huge gas reserves. But if you look at current production, oil is still significant. And gas prices are not independent from oil prices.
With the end of oil in sight, the government of Qatar has been expanding other industries mostly relying on gas as fuel.
 
VX321
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:03 pm

AAB is never happy. LH did the smart thing by taking the NEO and while restricting its ops, they at least can get fuel savings and learn about the new engines. ABB never learned to shut up and play with the cards dealt to him. Qatar needs Airbus and Boeing more than the other way around. If I were either company, I'd be very tempted to shut the door his face unless he grows up and tell him to buy COMAC or Russian. That said, I would disallow QR from ever being a launch customer of any of my planes just to stick to him. The real world has consequences.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:15 am

Pelly is right, the hydraulic temperature issue was a problem for QR. Airbus says it will be resolved this summer.

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scbriml
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Re: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:12 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
and they control major airlines like BA, Iberia and Latam..


They most certainly do not control those airlines. They have a stake in them, but nowhere near enough to be in a position to "control" them.
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