Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:07 pm

Quoting ap305 (Reply 42):
And Pratt now responds to AAB's remarks

And from the WSJ article:

Quote:
On Friday, engine maker Pratt & Whitney offered a rare public rebuke of their customer, calling Mr. Al Baker’s comments “completely inaccurate,” and saying they “mischaracterize the performance of the engine” which, the company said, is meeting its fuel-consumption promises. The company said it has “resolved the very few initial teething items airlines have experienced” and information about its “solutions for the items are well known” and widely disseminated to its customers.

It's getting messy   
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9428
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:16 pm

What I am astounded about is that the A320-271n can only do cat1. What can be the reason? How can a new engine have influence on that? Does somebody has some more information?
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:34 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 46):
P&W truly suck as an engine manufacturer these days

Hyperbole alert.


They've the most efficient in service aircraft engine (by a distance) in the largest sector of commercial aviation.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25590
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 46):
Is this surely not just refusing delivery until problems have been resolved?

The WSJ article in #42 makes it clear that the contractual cancellation clause for the first QR A320neo has been invoked, and that the cancellation clauses for other early airframes are not triggered yet AAB suggests he may invoke the cancellation clause for these if/when he can.

It also points out that while the first 'fixed' PW engine has been delivered, it has yet to be flight tested so there is still some time before the fix can be put into service.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
dubaiamman243
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:00 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:56 pm

According to the following article, Mr Akbar was in talks with Boeing regarding the B737MAX

" Akbar Al Baker said the carrier would soon start talks with alternative engine supplier CFM, and had held talks with rival planemaker Boeing over switching to 737s, but was not yet walking away from Airbus.

"We will switch to the Max if we cannot resolve our issue. We will go to current option 737s and convert it to Max," he said, adding he was sure Boeing could find production slots if needed."

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar...er-delays-633987.html#.V1HgJJF97IU
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:00 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 54):
adding he was sure Boeing could find production slots if needed

Some slots sure, not many. Good luck getting a large 737 MAX fleet before 2020. He can still get his A320neo before the end of the year.

It just doesn't add up.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19627
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:20 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 18):
And would not have any frame delivered up to now either.

Exactly. The PW engine clearly has more potential than LEAP. But sure, feel free to give all that up in a strop.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 21):
Has QR ever been happy with a new fleet type?

Despite moaning about the delayed deliveries, QR is VERY happy with their A350s.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 54):
According to the following article, Mr Akbar was in talks with Boeing regarding the B737MAX

" Akbar Al Baker said the carrier would soon start talks with alternative engine supplier CFM, and had held talks with rival planemaker Boeing over switching to 737s, but was not yet walking away from Airbus.

"We will switch to the Max if we cannot resolve our issue. We will go to current option 737s and convert it to Max," he said, adding he was sure Boeing could find production slots if needed."

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar...er-delays-633987.html#.V1HgJJF97IU

It reminds me of how he used BBD and the CSeries as a pawn in his negotiations with Airbus…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:17 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
QR load factors are poor. The government is running a huge deficit at these 'low' energy prices. I suspect QR is using any excuse to cut outlays.

You're wrong on both counts. Lately, Qatar's LF has been on par with Emirates, if not better. Also, among GCC's six member states, the State of Qatar does not have huge deficits and is doing far better than at least four other members--Saudi, Bahrain, Oman and UAE. Kuwait, like Qatar, is doing okay, too.
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:22 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 55):
It just doesn't add up.

Couldn't agree more.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 51):
What I am astounded about is that the A320-271n can only do cat1. What can be the reason? How can a new engine have influence on that? Does somebody has some more information?

I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the engine.

If he was promised Cat III and the wx on his route structure is occasionally not good enough for CAT I that's a pretty valid reason for not taking the airplane -- passengers don't like it when they don't land where they expect to land and if he's that tight for equipment playing musical chairs to get a CAT II or III qualified airplane is a problem.
 
Okie
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:43 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 51):
What I am astounded about is that the A320-271n can only do cat1. What can be the reason? How can a new engine have influence on that? Does somebody has some more information?

Maybe the PW has not been certified for those operations?

Whether the plane, electronics, engines or something else preventing an aircraft sold CAT III and only being CAT I capable is absolutely valid reason to not accept the aircraft.
That is a major failure.

Okie
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:30 am

It would be a bad decision.
I switched from QR to EK exactly for the reason they use A-320 on DME-DOH leg.
Any narrow body on a 5.5 hour leg is not fun.
But B-737 is narrower, and noticeably.

Anyway. I am happy with EK fleet and their Skywards program.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9428
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:56 am

The news is, that Qatar is not taking the first of 34 ordered A320-271n. Qatar has not canceled the other 33, has not cancelled the P&W and ordered CFM and has not ordered 737MAX as it is.
Customer refusing certain frames, while taking the rest have been seen before.

More interesting I find the cat problem. Does the A320ceo do cat3 and if yes, why does the A320 not? Is cat2 and cat3 on the A320neo only a matter of time and certification, or is there a problem?
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:49 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
Does the A320ceo do cat3

Of course it does. Any Airbus (Boeing or Embraer) is Cat3A capable (fully automatic landing).
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25590
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:08 pm

Quoting rbrunner (Reply 64):
Of course it does.

Yet above we read that AAB said:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
the aircraft is limited only to Category 1 landings, Al Baker said.

so we're all wondering what that is about. I spent a few minutes googling to see what I could find, and I didn't find anything. I suppose we need Karel to enlighten us yet again!  
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9189
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:16 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 27):
When US CEOs like Richard Anderson make similar threats everyone on these threads talks about how smart it is. He has every right to complain about the performance of the airplane, and it certainly is not a bizzare way to behave. it's rather smart.

Can you point to comparable remarks by Anderson, please? I don't recall any bombast regarding new type deliveries or other broad alleged contract non-performance.
 
StTim
Posts: 3809
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:17 pm

I don't recall that limitation in the certification documentation.
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 65):
so we're all wondering what that is about

This concerns low visibility approaches and landings. Cat I has a minimum visibility (vertical and horizontal) beyond which visual contact with the runway is necessary to proceed. Cat II has got lower visibility limits, Cat III even lower and Cat IIIA means fully automatic landing. The pilots take over after the aircraft stops on the runway. They then taxi the aircraft to the gate.
Sometimes it takes some time (in normal commercial operation) until Cat II certification is achieved, some more time until Cat III, etc., until it's fully Cat IIIA certified. I would assume that being a derivative of A320ceo, it would be from the outset, but...
 
trex8
Posts: 5645
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:24 pm

Does QR do cat 3 with narrowbodies at all today??IIRC not every carrier keep their flight crews up to cat 3 standard even if the planes are equipped to do so.

edit, from a 787 cat 3 thread 787 Not Cat III Certified? (by travelavnut Jan 14 2015 in Tech Ops)

[Edited 2016-06-04 07:26:30]
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:26 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 69):
Does QR do cat 3 with narrowbodies at all today

For sure.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15748
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 65):
so we're all wondering what that is about. I spent a few minutes googling to see what I could find, and I didn't find anything. I suppose we need Karel to enlighten us yet again!
https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/homer_simpson_end_is_near.jpg?w=738

Low weather operations are operational approval granted by the local CAA to each operator to each type of aircraft operated. It is like ETOPS, RVSM, RNP-AR, they are operational approvals that are granted to airlines.

Reading between the lines, the Qatar CAA has not granted LWO approval until they have demonstrated requirements have been met. This may mean for example that QR will need to conduct a number of autolands in CAT 1 or better conditions to qualify the aircraft and crew.

Storm in a teacup be lapped up by Boeing fanboys as the end of the A320neo is nigh.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21564
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:44 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 43):
Maybe QR is just really unlucky in that they attract a whole lot more Gremlins than anyone else  

  
Gremlins love AAB.  
Quoting zckls04   (Reply 48):
Let's see what the CFM's introduction is like before we get too excited- I suspect in the wash, the P&W will end up being the better product.
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 52):
They've the most efficient in service aircraft engine (by a distance) in the largest sector of commercial aviation.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 53):
It also points out that while the first 'fixed' PW engine has been delivered, it has yet to be flight tested so there is still some time before the fix can be put into service.

That is valid. The new blade tips are needed. I'm very curious to see how LEP-1A volumes are in 2017.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 55):
It just doesn't add up.

All indications are QR has overexpanded.

Lightsaber
4 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
MD88CLE
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:16 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 65):
Yet above we read that AAB said:

rbrunner was responding to a question regarding the A320ceo, as where AAB is talking about the A320neo. The context being that the ceo is indeed capable of and certified for executing these approaches, and they are not a new addition to the neo that is simply yet to be certified.
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:12 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 71):
Reading between the lines, the Qatar CAA has not granted LWO approval until they have demonstrated requirements have been met. This may mean for example that QR will need to conduct a number of autolands in CAT 1 or better conditions to qualify the aircraft and crew.

That makes sense.

I also wonder whether the changes to the engine might mean that the auto-throttle (which I believe is a requirement for cat II/III landings) might need to be re-certified. Ought to be a trivial formality once the fixed engines are flying.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:32 pm

AAB may make a lot of noise but he's not stupid. If this was just a flight crew/Qatar CAA issue he wouldn't be screaming at AB.

The question might be, with all the flights DLH is putting on the NEO's are they CAT I restricted and have they had any wx issues because of it.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25590
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:27 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 74):
I also wonder whether the changes to the engine might mean that the auto-throttle (which I believe is a requirement for cat II/III landings) might need to be re-certified. Ought to be a trivial formality once the fixed engines are flying.

It's hard to know if this is some problem with the plane or if it's the normal approval cycle for the aircraft and crew as Zeke suggests. If we were talking about a normal person making such a statement we'd have to think it is something wrong with the plane but since it is AAB it's quite plausible that he's taking an issue that every new aircraft faces and making it into a drama.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:00 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 76):
It's hard to know if this is some problem with the plane or if it's the normal approval cycle for the aircraft and crew as Zeke suggests.

It's not a problem with the plane. It's the normal certification cycle, as you say and as zeke suggests. Present A320neo pilots are asked to do as many autolands as possible in order to achieve Cat II, Cat III and eventually Cat IIIA certification.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25590
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:08 pm

The article in the thread starter was updated with some feedback from PW.

Here's the update, with a bit of context:

Quote:

He (ed: Al Baker) criticized that some of the factors inhibiting engine performance will not be resolved until mid-2017.

Pratt fired back, charging in a statement issued June 3 that Al Baker's comments were "completely inaccurate and mischaracterize the performance of the engine [which] is fully certified and meets performance and contract specifications. ... We have resolved the very few initial teething items airlines have experienced. Production engines shipping today to Airbus already include hardware and software improvements."

So is this more nonsense from Crazy Ali?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21564
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:12 am

Quoting crimsonchin (Reply 78):
Also, I've always wondered, if Airbus loses NEO orders due to P&W's incompetence, do they have a recourse against P&W?

As a risk sharing partner, Pratt is having to absorb much of the costs.

What Pratt needs is to get out the fix and deliver engines.


Then we can see how the LEAP-1A and PW1100G really stack up against each other.

Lightsaber
4 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:08 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 5):
Though how much, if anything, walking away might cost him will all depend on the contract.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
I would suspect that it must be very little, if he's willing to walk away.

To the contrary, it is in the multiple MILLIONS of €€€ per aircraft, so not a small amount in the slightest. On the upside, QR can simply divert a day's worth of income from their government subsidies to cover the cancellation penalties to Airbus.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
User avatar
zkokq
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:44 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:24 am

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 83):
On the upside, QR can simply divert a day's worth of income from their government subsidies to cover the cancellation penalties to Airbus.

Wow, you Americans are really bitter about the ops of the ME3. If the airlines put as much effort into their product as they do the whining it might be a different story!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15748
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:00 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 74):
I also wonder whether the changes to the engine might mean that the auto-throttle (which I believe is a requirement for cat II/III landings) might need to be re-certified.

Autothrust is not required for CAT 2 approaches.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:53 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 85):
Autothrust is not required for CAT 2 approaches.

Actually, it is until you have demonstrated that the aircraft can be landed in CAT II conditions without it.
See CS-AWO-123:
http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/decision_ED_2003_06_RM.pdf

I guess the point I'm trying to make, which pretty much agrees with what you have been saying, is that the regulations relating to CAT II/III contain many rules that require demonstrations of the ability to land in impaired conditions before approval will be granted for an airline to conduct general operations in those conditions.

Specifically, many of these rules relate to the engines and engine control systems. So, even if the aircraft previously had approval for CAT II/III approaches with the original GTF engine, it is likely there will be some retesting required with the fixed engine.

For anyone who is interested in the process of getting approval for CAT II/III operations, there's quite a good Airbus document on the subject:
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1480.pdf
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10100
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:14 am

As the LH NEO D-AINB operated the flight FRA-DUS in definite CAT III conditions this morning perfectly on time, it can not be a problem of the aircraft type.
 
User avatar
kelvin933
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:20 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:35 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 88):
it can not be a problem of the aircraft type.

So what have is a misunderstanding on purpose from our friend AAB. If he was actually interested in speeding up the CAT III certification process his airline would be flying their A320NEOs, not blowing raspberries in the press.
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:44 am

Airbus latest order book update doesn't show a cancellation. Maybe next month, or maybe 'walked away' was used in a different context, or maybe this news is just hot air.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4519
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:58 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Then we can see how the LEAP-1A and PW1100G really stack up against each other.

But this requires the Leap engine to get delivered, as well.

Lets face it, the PW engine is delayed, but as we speak, there are A320NEOs flying and delivering (promising) real world results.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10100
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:33 am

The EIS of the GTF is unfortunately overshadowed by the issue with the engine start. All other data looks quite outstanding. Without the start issue this could have been one of the best EIS of a new engine in ages. The usual problems like fuel burn are not to be found. Rumour says it performs even better than expected in real life when it comes to fuel burn.

Still I would like to see AAB put his money where is mouth is and cancel the NEOs and buy 737s instead. I would love to see how his superiors would think of this decision in 5 years.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:31 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 88):
Still I would like to see AAB put his money where is mouth is and cancel the NEOs and buy 737s instead. I would love to see how his superiors would think of this decision in 5 years.

yep, when Oil goes back up in price (and it will) any decision on 737NG's would unlikely be a good one, and if he went for the MAX then he would be waiting much longer for delivery than the P&W A320neo's already on order - so what's the point?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):
just hot air.

think this sums it up!
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1947
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:42 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 88):
Still I would like to see AAB put his money where is mouth is and cancel the NEOs and buy 737s instead. I would love to see how his superiors would think of this decision in 5 years.

Careful what you wish for, he may cancel the A320 order but what will happen if the 779 runs into delays? While there is a chance he may just cancel the order, I doubt it will happen and these delays are helping him cut costs and streamline his airline to achieve more positive results, IMO. He is also getting free marketing by shouting the loudest so its win win for him in the end.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:50 am

As the article says:

Quote:
"We will have no alternative but to lease. We awaiting final response from airbus," he said. We are "not talking about compensation. It is about us getting aeroplanes so we can meet network requirement."

Ordering 737 MAX aircraft will not resolve his immediate need for additional capacity.

Remember, Mr Baker once threatened to order A330s over the 787 delays. It never happened.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25590
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:04 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 88):
The EIS of the GTF is unfortunately overshadowed by the issue with the engine start. All other data looks quite outstanding. Without the start issue this could have been one of the best EIS of a new engine in ages. The usual problems like fuel burn are not to be found. Rumour says it performs even better than expected in real life when it comes to fuel burn.

And we know the core was a conservative design and a PIP is already scheduled so happy days are ahead!

These are all teething pains largely amplified by    AAB for his own personal glory.

It's a spectacle which is prime fodder for forums like ours.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):
Airbus latest order book update doesn't show a cancellation. Maybe next month, or maybe 'walked away' was used in a different context, or maybe this news is just hot air.

Perhaps he just walked away from this frame (to make a statement), and will take a later (better) frame down the road - just like ANA walked away from several early 787s without cancelling orders.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
slider
Posts: 7687
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:57 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Their absence “has a huge impact on my bottom line," Al Baker said adding, “we are screaming.”

When is he never NOT screaming?

At some point, when a child has a never-ending tantrum, you tune it out. I cannot comprehend how/why this man continues to act in such an undignified, brusque and rude manner at every turn.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 93):
Perhaps he just walked away from this frame (to make a statement), and will take a later (better) frame down the road - just like ANA walked away from several early 787s without cancelling orders.

A better frame? All A320s are the same. Same fuselage, same cabin. Only the engine/pylon are different, and a better engine can be attached on the first frame.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15748
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:41 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 83):

I was going by the landing capability table in the A320 QRH giving the correct information for the A320. Auto thrust is not required for CAT 2.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:02 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 95):
A better frame? All A320s are the same. Same fuselage, same cabin. Only the engine/pylon are different, and a better engine can be attached on the first frame.

Read it as a better engine. They probably don't want to go about swapping engines.
And perhaps some pylon mods may be planned to iprove engine mounting.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that perhaps they are walking away from (some of the) initial frames (and thus engines), without reducing the order commitment.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:07 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 97):
They probably don't want to go about swapping engines.

Maybe not, though the engines were removed shortly after the first flight in January. It's just a matter of putting new engines on the frame, hence I don't understand why they would walk away from it. Perhaps QR are just trying to put some pressure on Airbus.


A320neo Qatar A6-APB by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr

[Edited 2016-06-08 14:07:46]
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: QR 'Walks Away' From First A320neo

Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:15 pm

Nothing wrong with being a good, demanding customer. Go into a new car dealership, and you will see plenty of examples.

Many decades ago, I ordered a new car in a specific colour. The dealership had to order it in, and advised a date for collection. The date arrived, and the dealer phoned. The car arrived, they registered it, but found it had paint defects, so ordered in a replacement.

As luck would have it, they sold the original car to an acquaintance, didn't point out the paint defects, didn't give him a discount, and initially tried to claim the marks appeared after delivery.

Another new car I ordered multiple decades ago, was an Italian number, with an exotic engine. The dealer advised it was essential to stop and start the engine with the front wheels in the straight ahead position, otherwise very expensive engine issues would result, which were not covered by the warranty. I cancelled the order.

QR do seem pedantic when it comes to standards, if rumoured delays of aircraft for carpet, internal door and other issues are true, when these should be detected early on by airline staff based with, and working alongside the manufacturer.

The engine issues are in a different league. The downside of cancelling an A320 to make a point, given the pent up demand, is how long it will take to replace it, though I suspect Airbus would shuffle to accommodate.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos