DL Next To Upgrade Their Biz Class?

flyinghippo · Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:22 pm

With UA and AA announcing new hard products for their business class, does it compel Delta to act and introduce new business class seats? The current Delta One product, while decent, is not near the top of the line in terms of function, storage, technology.

thoughts?

delimit · Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:26 pm

I believe a new hard product is coming with the 350s.

Alitalia744 · Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:32 pm

New hard product coming with A350s and retrofitted 77E/L.

flyinghippo · Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:45 pm

I did a Google search for Delta A350 Business class and didn't find anything about new hardware...

questions · Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:59 pm

Will DL go 3-4-3 in Y on the 777?

northwestEWR · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:11 am

Quoting questions (Reply 4):
Will DL go 3-4-3 in Y on the 777?

Doesn't sound like it.

Okcflyer · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:40 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 5):

Quoting questions (Reply 4):
Will DL go 3-4-3 in Y on the 777?

Doesn't sound like it.

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They will have too in order to remain competitive with UA, AA, and most other major international carriers.

questions · Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:12 am

I hope DL spends more money this go around and outfit their J cabin with a more sophisticated design and higher quality materials.

mayor · Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:51 am

Quoting flyinghippo (Reply 3):

I did a Google search for Delta A350 Business class and didn't find anything about new hardware...

Perhaps there's no info for it, yet...........isn't first delivery now scheduled for 2017?

goldorak · Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:16 am

They should really focus on the B767 fleet urgently because the Delta One product is quite poor, while it is very good in the airbus and B744 fleet.

compensateme · Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:39 am

Quoting questions (Reply 4):
Will DL go 3-4-3 in Y on the 777?

It hasn't been confirmed, but reliable DL insiders have claimed it will, with a portion of the cabin going to 8-across and being branded as premium economy.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 9):
They should really focus on the B767 fleet urgently because the Delta One product is quite poor, while it is very good in the airbus and B744 fleet.

Have you been on the current generation product? It's not, nor ever was, a leading product but it's still better than the majority of the configurations flying across the Atlantic -- hardly "poor."

redflyer · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:04 pm

Quoting flyinghippo (Thread starter):
The current Delta One product, while decent, is not near the top of the line in terms of function, storage, technology.

Or comfort.

tlecam · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:21 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 9):
on the B767 fleet urgently because the Delta One product is quite poor, while it is very good in the airbus and B744 fleet.

How is it different?

compensateme · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:45 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 12):
How is it different?

A330/B747 are reverse herringbone, which is the leading product available today. The B767 are Vantage-style staggered, which isn't as nice as reverse herringbone (or herringbone) but is still a step above angled lie-flat and earlier generation lie-flat seats, which are still prevalent today.

[Edited 2016-06-05 05:48:40]

tlecam · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:51 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 13):
available today. The B767 use Vantage staggered seats.

To me, that doesn't really make the DL product "poor" on the 763/764. I've flown all of their wide bodies in J quite a few times at this point, and I can't ever say that I noticed the staggered vs. herringbone having any meaningful impact on my comfort or experience.

I'm not a small guy either - 6'2, 185, broad shoulders.

RDUDDJI · Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:58 pm

Quoting flyinghippo (Thread starter):
With UA and AA announcing new hard products for their business class, does it compel Delta to act and introduce new business class seats? The current Delta One product, while decent, is not near the top of the line in terms of function, storage, technology.

thoughts?

Yes, DL would logically be next, but remember, they were first in this latest US3 round of (lie flat) updates.

[Edited 2016-06-05 06:00:16]

compensateme · Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:11 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 14):
To me, that doesn't really make the DL product "poor" on the 763/764. I've flown all of their wide bodies in J quite a few times at this point, and I can't ever say that I noticed the staggered vs. herringbone having any meaningful impact on my comfort or experience.

I agree with you; while the herringbone seats are noticeably more comfortable, it's asinine to call the residual of DL's product "poor" and "uncomfortable." A large chuck of the seats in the market, including those operated by top European carriers as well as the ME3, utilize earlier-generation lie-flat seats as well as even older angle lie-flat.

Anybody who thinks that DL's product is uncompetitive is living in the 2000s and/or has limited experience with the premium class products offered amongst OAL today.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 15):
Yes, DL would logically be next, but remember, they were first in this latest US3 round of (lie flat) updates.

Actually, that was UA circa 2008 when it finally decided to ditch the 1990-style recliners.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:15 pm

Its one of the worst-kept secrets out there that DL is planning a new seat with the A350s and a pending update on the 777 fleet.

MIflyer12 · Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:58 pm

Delta doesn't have to compete with announcements - it needs to compete with the product in the air. AA is still flying dozens of 777s and 767s with angled business seats, not all lie flat/aisle access as with 100% of DL long-haul widebodies. Ask AA about the fraction of long-haul fleet with sat wifi, too; ask about AVOD in coach.

northwestEWR · Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:48 pm

Perhaps some people are thinking about this backwards... Delta was 1st to do these changes, AA and UA having just announced and/or installing new interiors are working to catch up (and potentially) pass DL's original changes.

What we're expecting at this point is DL to jump to the head of the pack again with the A350/777 product. AA and UA will then be working to catch up again.

AMALH747430 · Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:01 pm

Whether DL does anything to the 767 Delta One cabins will probably depend on how long the aircraft will remain in the fleet. If they are sticking around for a while I hope they follow UA and go with a product that can be installed in the 767s as well as the remainder of the wide body fleet. While it's not necessarily a deal breaker, it sure is nice when one has a consistent product. Many world class airlines do fine with varied products (LH for one) but it makes the experience that much better if you know what you are going to get every time.

compensateme · Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:16 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 19):
Perhaps some people are thinking about this backwards... Delta was 1st to do these changes, AA and UA having just announced and/or installing new interiors are working to catch up (and potentially) pass DL's original changes.

No, UA was first, beginning in fall of 2007, under the "Suite Dreams" branding:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...tarting-october-29th-58562772.html

Delta didn't make an announcement for several months later (see my posting below).

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 20):
Whether DL does anything to the 767 Delta One cabins will probably depend on how long the aircraft will remain in the fleet. If they are sticking around for a while I hope they follow UA and go with a product that can be installed in the 767s as well as the remainder of the wide body fleet. While it's not necessarily a deal breaker, it sure is nice when one has a consistent product. Many world class airlines do fine with varied products (LH for one) but it makes the experience that much better if you know what you are going to get every time.

DL operates a very large number of late-model 767 (it took delivery of over 60 evenly from 1996-2002) that will likely average another 10 years of service, so it's probable they'll receive at least one more (and maybe two) refresh. While the next-generation product will likely be similar across the fleet, it won't be the same given the differences in cabin width.

[Edited 2016-06-05 14:16:13]

United1 · Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:56 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 21):
No, UA began updating its business class in fall of 2007 and finished by 2010 (the 757 serving JFK-LAX/SFO were not updated until 2014):

UA actually finished retrofitting P.S. aircraft in late 2013.

The last UA 777 was completed in 2013 after slowing down installation during the fuel run up of 2008 and of course the merger expanded the scope of the retrofit. UA very much was however the first US airline to offer lie flat seats in J class starting in 2007 as well as the first to complete fleet wide installation. DL started adding lie flats in J on the 77L/77E fleet in 2008 and limited it to those two types until just a few years ago by starting to retrofit the former NW fleet and DLs own aircraft...IIRC they finished fleet wide lie flat installation in 2014.

Going back even further than 2007 UA actually installed flat bed seats in F (on the 744/772 fleet) back in 2000. Those seats were replaced by the IPTE seat (and added to the 763s) starting in 2007 and of course F will be phased out entirely with the launch of Polaris.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:57 pm

Didn't NW for a period in the early 2000s with the new WBC seat on the new A330s and installed on the 744s have a better hard product in J than its competitors for brief period.

compensateme · Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:14 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 22):
The last UA 777 was completed in 2013 after slowing down installation during the fuel run up of 2008 and of course the merger expanded the scope of the retrofit. UA very much was however the first US airline to offer lie flat seats in J class starting in 2007 as well as the first to complete fleet wide installation. DL started adding lie flats in J on the 77L/77E fleet in 2008 and limited it to those two types until just a few years ago by starting to retrofit the former NW fleet and DLs own aircraft...IIRC they finished fleet wide lie flat installation in 2014.

Upon further research, I found the press release I was looking for:
http://news.delta.com/delta-invites-...-seat-international-boeing-767-400

So UA announced its conversion to flatbeds (sans p.s. aircraft) in fall of 2007 and DL did the same in winter 2008 (sans the 757). Both airlines slowed the rate of conversion and both had finished (including their 757) by 2014.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
Didn't NW for a period in the early 2000s with the new WBC seat on the new A330s and installed on the 744s have a better hard product in J than its competitors for brief period.

The angle-flat WBC seats were a leading product when they were initially installed, although they were quickly made obsoleted by flatbeds. And many people, especially the obese, were never fans on the angle-flat. IMO, they were far superior to BusinessElite -- I remember a few years ago (2012?) when my flight from DTW-FRA was swapped from the 332 to the 763 and having to enjoy DL's archaic recliners with incredibly weak IFE. My company paid ~$7K for my ticket and I never felt so ripped off...

United1 · Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):

Didn't NW for a period in the early 2000s with the new WBC seat on the new A330s and installed on the 744s have a better hard product in J than its competitors for brief period.

Quite possibly....NWs seats on the 330 and 747 were a great product and were certainly a notch up from the old recliners.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 24):
Both airlines slowed the rate of conversion and both had finished (including their 757) by 2014.

Sounds about right.....June of 2013 for the UA long haul fleet and December 2013 for P.S...

http://newsroom.united.com/2013-06-1...l-Flights-From-North-American-Hubs

http://newsroom.united.com/2013-12-0...esign-of-p-s-Premium-Service-Fleet

Joost · Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:13 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 21):
DL operates a very large number of late-model 767 (it took delivery of over 60 evenly from 1996-2002) that will likely average another 10 years of service, so it's probable they'll receive at least one more (and maybe two) refresh. While the next-generation product will likely be similar across the fleet, it won't be the same given the differences in cabin width.

IMO, it is extemely unlikely that the long-haul DL 767s will receive another C-class seat in their lifetime. They do offer a full-flat, all-aisle product which they only just finished installing. And whilst the Vantage might not be the most comfortable C-class seat available, it still is a full-flat, all-aisle access product and many other airlines are currently reconfiguring or receiving new aircraft with the seat (LX 77W are delivered with Vantage, AA and SN have just been reconfiguring their planes).

Even more so, AFAIK, the Vantage is, (besides the proprietary 'Virgin Seat' as used by AC), the only certified full-flat all-aisle access seat around for the 767 at all. UA are using their rear-facing 2-2-2 seats (PMUA) and the B/E Diamond in 2-1-1 (PMCO seat), BA are using their (propriatary) Club World and LAN is using a tradional seat albeit flat, but these don't offer all-aisle access. OS and AA have the same Vantage which is a nice fit on the 767. (Nicer than on the 330 or 777, as on these planes they don't have all-aisle access).

The reverse herringbone seats (Cirrus, Super Diamond) aren't even offered for the 767. Even if they would, DL would not be able to offer the seats used on the 330 and 747 on the 767.

If any refurbishment will take place, it will be the cussions.

compensateme · Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:08 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 26):
IMO, it is extemely unlikely that the long-haul DL 767s will receive another C-class seat in their lifetime. They do offer a full-flat, all-aisle product which they only just finished installing. And whilst the Vantage might not be the most comfortable C-class seat available, it still is a full-flat, all-aisle access product and many other airlines are currently reconfiguring or receiving new aircraft with the seat (LX 77W are delivered with Vantage, AA and SN have just been reconfiguring their planes).

If DL wants to continue to its quest to establish itself as a premium airline, it will need to refresh its premium cabins every 5 years or so. It already made that decision once, when it opted to replace the former NW WBC seats, which were only 4-6 years-old and still very competitive at the time. Whether it will choose to modify the incumbent seats or replace them with new ones is to be seen, but given that 60+ frames will average another decade of service, it will happen.

tlecam · Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:08 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 27):
If DL wants to continue to its quest to establish itself as a premium airline, it will need to refresh its premium cabins every 5 years or so. It already made that decision once, when it opted to replace the former NW WBC seats, which were only 4-6 years-old and still very competitive at the time. Whether it will choose to modify the incumbent seats or replace them with new ones is to be seen, but given that 60+ frames will average another decade of service, it will happen.

I agree. THey'll have to do something. They ahve a ton of 763 as well as the 764 and there aren't really any meaningful replacement aircraft on order. That alone tells me that they're not going anywhere anytime soon.

The first 767 toget the current life flat seats are looking tired. There will have to be something. Whether that's a new seat, I have no idea.

rwsea · Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:27 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 7):

I hope DL spends more money this go around and outfit their J cabin with a more sophisticated design and higher quality materials.

This. Time to get rid of the cheap-looking blue vinyl (excuse me, leather) seats. Cloth seats are a lot more comfortable for long-haul business class, as evidenced by the fact that most of DL's competitors use cloth.

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 27):
If DL wants to continue to its quest to establish itself as a premium airline, it will need to refresh its premium cabins every 5 years or so.

This is generally what is done now. About every five years inflight services reinvents itself to keep the product current and fresh.

This month I flew Delta One from ATL-ZRH and BCN-JFK. ATL-ZRH was a 763ER and while the seat was ok I can see that it will become dated quickly. Now that DL has their narrow body fleet orders intact maybe they will start to consider a 767 replacement but currently there is nothing much in that capacity except the A330.

BCN-JFK was a 777ER and those seats were very comfortable and I slept a good four hours.

Ask anyone in DL management about what is planned for the introduction of the A350-900 and they just smile. They have something planned that I bet will please everyone but for competitive reasons access to that info is highly restricted.

[Edited 2016-06-07 11:12:00]

United1 · Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:12 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 26):
Even more so, AFAIK, the Vantage is, (besides the proprietary 'Virgin Seat' as used by AC), the only certified full-flat all-aisle access seat around for the 767 at all

UAs new Polaris seat will be retrofitted to the 767 and offers all aisle access....so there are options if DL wants to swap out their 767 seats.

airzim · Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:21 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 19):
Perhaps some people are thinking about this backwards... Delta was 1st to do these changes, AA and UA having just announced and/or installing new interiors are working to catch up (and potentially) pass DL's original changes.

What we're expecting at this point is DL to jump to the head of the pack again with the A350/777 product. AA and UA will then be working to catch up again.

I doubt it. There's always tradeoffs with cabin upgrades, and given that airlines are unable to charge a premium for these new seats and services, they will try to find incremental revenue increases in other areas to help the bottom line, i.e., adding more seats per row to coach. This is effectively a zero sum game at this point as far as hard product is concerned. How much further than flat can you go?

United still 'wins' in this area since they have been able to update the seats and keep the relative total numbers without sacrificing too many seats from coach. But of course they are still adding the 3-4-3 config to boost revenue per plane to help offset the cost of the updates. However, UA has a large J cabin (to sell and score upgrades) and larger number of E+ seats relative to DL and AA. That's generally good for Elites. Whether that matters to John Q Public depends on their FFP status and how much they are willing to pay.

I'm still not convinced that a PE+ cabin is revenue optimal for the US carriers. United clearly doesn't think so at this stage. Many airlines that have tried it have either shrunk the cabin size, made the seating more dense, or eliminated it all together. It will be interesting to see how AA and DL do with this cabin. For United, it might depend on how LH values it on the TATL.

The next frontier will be (hopefully) service standards on differentiating the US3. If you have roughly the same product, same relative network, same pricing, and similar FFP programs, where else can you differentiate your product? Ironically it sounds like we're back to Regulation days; but hopefully more profitable.

ldvaviation · Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:18 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 31):
UAs new Polaris seat will be retrofitted to the 767 and offers all aisle access....so there are options if DL wants to swap out their 767 seats.

I doubt that DL will follow UA's example on this one.

They don't have a high density layout now. Why would Delta adopt one when their edge over United has been that it (Delta) can sell the seats?

I think Delta will stay true to their philosophy that the customer can tell the difference between Delta and everyone else. To me, that means any of the reverse herringbone layouts with some advances in styling and the functionality of the shell.

burnsie28 · Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:26 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 13):
A330/B747 are reverse herringbone, which is the leading product available today. The B767 are Vantage-style staggered, which isn't as nice as reverse herringbone (or herringbone) but is still a step above angled lie-flat and earlier generation lie-flat seats, which are still prevalent today.

The 767 fuselage isn't wide enough to do 1-2-1 in the herringbone configuration.

United1 · Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:41 pm

Quoting ldvaviation (Reply 33):
They don't have a high density layout now. Why would Delta adopt one when their edge over United has been that it (Delta) can sell the seats?

I would argue that they do have a high density configuration right now...the 763s are a little hard to compare simply due to the different sized J class babins but DL certainly packs them in. When it comes to the 764 DLs aircraft actually has one more J class seat than UA does...using roughly the same amount of floor space.

commavia · Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:14 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 19):
Perhaps some people are thinking about this backwards... Delta was 1st to do these changes, AA and UA having just announced and/or installing new interiors are working to catch up (and potentially) pass DL's original changes.

Indeed.

This is how most competitive dynamics work - one competitor continually pushes others to improve, spurring still more improvements, etc. It's an endless cycle. I'd agree that in general Delta was ahead of United and certainly AA with respect to longhaul J hard/soft product but now AA and United have upped the ante, and thus Delta will respond in time.

The only caveat I'd add to that is that it does seem as though we are approaching a bit of a plateau in terms of the level of product offering that can physically fit into the dimensions of a modern widebody airline and still be profitable. Some marginal, incremental improvement is likely all around in coming years, but realistically it's hard to imagine there being as much dramatic evolution (improvement) among the US3 in the next decade as there has been in the last decade.

Quoting Joost (Reply 26):
IMO, it is extemely unlikely that the long-haul DL 767s will receive another C-class seat in their lifetime. They do offer a full-flat, all-aisle product which they only just finished installing.

Agree. It's hard to imagine how a business case for doing any more major investments into the 767 fleet would be NPV-positive at this point. The product in those 767s is already generally competitive in the areas that matter most, plus those jets are likely going to be increasingly relegated to more specialized and/or less competitive markets in coming years as Delta takes delivery of new aircraft.

ldvaviation · Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:22 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 35):
I would argue that they do have a high density configuration right now...the 763s are a little hard to compare simply due to the different sized J class babins but DL certainly packs them in. When it comes to the 764 DLs aircraft actually has one more J class seat than UA does...using roughly the same amount of floor space.

Has Delta announced that it will be putting the 764 high-density layout on the A350?

Did Delta install the 764 high-density layout on the A330?

I thought we were discussing what Delta would do next...

United1 · Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:25 am

Quoting ldvaviation (Reply 37):

I thought we were discussing what Delta would do next...

Thought we were as well....this thread isnt specific to the 330/350 and the 767 is certainly a large part of DLs fleet. While I wouldn't be supprised if they dont upgrade them DL certainly has options if they want to. Also DL doesn't seem to be afraid of a high density layout in J as you seem to feel they are...

DTWPurserBoy · Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:07 pm

I was on ship 172 (B763ER) about two weeks ago. It had been in the desert and was brought out and a new interior installed. New overhead bins, new forward galley, sidewall panels and lighting. Looked to me like they plan on keeping them a while.

DL_Mech · Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 39):
I was on ship 172 (B763ER) about two weeks ago. It had been in the desert and was brought out and a new interior installed.

172 was modded awhile ago. I think you are confusing it with 173. 173 is off the OpSpec and will not fly again.

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DTWPurserBoy · Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:50 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 40):
172 was modded awhile ago. I think you are confusing it with 173. 173 is off the OpSpec and will not fly again.

Whoops---my bad. Hit the wrong key. I have tried to keep track of what is in the desert and what is in service but they cycle them in and out it's hard to keep track.

You TechOps guys always have the straight information. Thanks.

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