With all the talk about Delta and how they retaliate with things they don't agree with could this be one of the main reasons Detroit attracts little or no new serivce. Is it possably the fact that the WCAA is in fear of anything the airport authority might do to attract better options for the people who use DTW and the above average fares that are being charged might bring a backlash from Delta. It is cerataily fesable that either QR or TK should've added service to Detroit by now as they have mentioned it as an immanant destination several times. One would also think that FI could maintain a flight at Detroit also. So my question is is there a gentalman's agreement in place that the WCAA will not encourage any entrent that DL does not want in the Detroit market or is the WCAA asleep at the wheel by not bring more options into the Detroit market so that we have a reasoable choice of carriers to use pertaining to cost. I know many people who drive from Detoit to either Toronto or Chicago to get fares that are cheaper by the hundreds of dollars. So that being said my second question is what do you think is possable as Detroit service addtions in the future.

Quoting klm617 (Thread starter): With all the talk about Delta and how they retaliate with things they don't agree with could this be one of the main reasons Detroit attracts little or no new serivce.

Quoting klm617 (Thread starter): Is it possably the fact that the WCAA is in fear of anything the airport authority might do to attract better options for the people who use DTW and the above average fares that are being charged might bring a backlash from Delta.

Absolutely not. There is no indication and most evidence is to the contrary in fact. There is no evidence of fear or gentlemens agreement or anything to the liking. One has to look as recent new entrants and service by B6 and AS that directly compete with DL service.

There is no shortage of gates, ample space over at the North Terminal that the airport would love to fill. There is no shortage of airfield capacity either. Its really just the market itself, the airport administration is not getting in the way of anything. They would roll out the red carpet to any new entrant, like they did with B6 and AS in the past year or two.

Quoting klm617 (Thread starter): It is cerataily fesable that either QR or TK should've added service to Detroit by now as they have mentioned it as an immanant destination several times. One would also think that FI could maintain a flight at Detroit also.

There have been so many "mentions, rumors, announcements of future announcements" that until they officially anounce a route with start dates and a schedule, its all just talk. We've hear Air China, Aeromexico, QR, TK, EK, FI etc all with the empty mentions that are interested in DTW.

The reality is that DTW is not a large O&D market that many of these routes can stand along without feed on the US side. DL has the power of the hub to suppliment the O&D with connecting traffic all over the Midwest.

There have always been people that will drive to ORD or YYZ for cheaper international flights and/or nonstop service not available out of DTW. These aren't necessarily the traffic that DL is interested in obtaining especially when they can fill their flights with other fares.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1): The reality is that DTW is not a large O&D market that many of these routes can stand along without feed on the US side. DL has the power of the hub to suppliment the O&D with connecting traffic all over the Midwest.

Exactly. DTW is very much set up as a transfer airport. It's really meant to be a lovely place to spend a few hours between flights and it accomplishes that well. As for O&D, DTW does have an enormous catchment. DTW basically is the point of departure for just about anyone within a 3 hour drive radius. But the population density is not huge and it just isn't a huge business center anymore.

Detroit is a great hub for Asia which has to be one reason Delta wanted Northwest so badly, a better Asian hub then MSP. With the coming A350-900 fleet and the 777-200LR Delta should be able to go nonstop to any place it needs to in Asia.

It will be interesting to see what will happen next, with YXU getting their schedule cut, and with them being(roughly)the halfway point between YYZ and DTW.

Quoting klm617 (Thread starter): With all the talk about Delta and how they retaliate with things they don't agree with could this be one of the main reasons Detroit attracts little or no new serivce.

I don't think any airline is afraid of competing with DL. Especially on domestic flights against the shambles that is the DL Connection operation at DTW. The main reason there isn't more service to DTW is that the amount of O/D traffic isn't there to support more. Detroit was once a thriving city of business and industry. Today it's a shell of what it used to be with little to no hope of ever recovering.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3): Detroit is a great hub for Asia which has to be one reason Delta wanted Northwest so badly, a better Asian hub then MSP.

I agree it's better than MSP with the Auto industry alone, but isn't DL trying to make SEA their Asian gateway?

Wouldn't Delta be big enough to have more than 1 Asian gateway? They have more than one to Europe. . . . JFK and ATL.

I don't think it's an either or situation.

Yes but by brining in FI could we not recapture these passengers who are driving to ORD and YYZ that are cost contious who don't want to pay Delta's sky high fares to Europe. I question how aggressively the WCAA is persuing new entrats because look what Delta did in MSP they added a flight to KEF in retaliation against FI and if MSP can justify two flights a day in the summer surely Detroit can fill one with onward connections from KEF

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1): The reality is that DTW is not a large O&D market that many of these routes can stand along without feed on the US side. DL has the power of the hub to suppliment the O&D with connecting traffic all over the Midwest.

What people lose sight of is that Detroit has more international service than it's ever had, despite the city's decline.

In 1973, the last truly good year for Detroit's auto companies, Detroit's international service consisted of Pan Am, TWA, and BOAC one stops from Detroit to London, an Alitalia one stop from Detroit to Rome, Aeromexico flights to MEX (which originated in YUL and stopped in YYZ on the way to DTW), an Air Jamaica DC-9 DTW-NAS-MBJ, and a 1x week Eastern nonstop to BDA. Alitalia, Air Jamaica, and Aeromexico all suspended DTW in 1974-76, largely because of the 1974 energy crisis and its accompanying catastrophic decline in auto sales, but also because of the higher operating costs at the Berry international terminal, which opened in 1974.

From then on, until the NW / Republic merger turned Detroit into a major hub, the only international flights were the Pan Am, British Airways, and TWA one stops to London (the TWA one stop was a change of gauge via JFK), plus intermittent Sabena and Icelandair one stops to Europe.

Even though the Detroit auto companies are much less dominant now than they were 43 years ago, and the metro area's population is smaller and less well off, DL's ability to gather passengers from throughout the country has enabled them to offer an almost unimaginable array of international flights. If Delta did not have a hub in Detroit, the only international service Detroit would be able to support based on local O&D alone would be the Royal Jordanian and Lufthansa flights, and a flight to London - probably operated by the BA / AA alliance.

The DL hub has also enabled Detroit to have far more domestic service than it could support based on local O&D alone. Throughout the 1970s, AA and UA flew a total of 5x or 6x day from Detroit to LAX and SFO, with most of the flights operated with DC-10s. When GM and Ford shut down their assembly plants in the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas, much of the O&D, and most of the belly cargo, disappeared. Even with a hub in DTW, DL operates less capacity to Los Angeles and San Francisco than AA and UA did 40 years ago - that's how devastating the decline of the Detroit auto companies has been to these routes.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1): The reality is that DTW is not a large O&D market that many of these routes can stand along without feed on the US side. DL has the power of the hub to suppliment the O&D with connecting traffic all over the Midwest.

I believe that is the root cause, without feed traffic DTW will be a tough market to crack. I think we'll see competition, but with the A359(LR) or 778 at first. The current long haul aircraft are too much gauge to start DTW without DL's consent.

Lightsaber

Wasn't their talk of EK or some of the gulf carriers serving DTW with the huge middle eastern population there? Also CZ?

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 5): I don't think any airline is afraid of competing with DL. Especially on domestic flights against the shambles that is the DL Connection operation at DTW.

Shamble's of the operation that is DCI? Please, all you do on this forum is complain about Connection, because they made you mad at one obscure Alaskan station. If you actually saw the performance numbers, you'd see that the most consistent carrier in the system over the last year has a significant operation in DTW.

-DiamondFlyer

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 5): I don't think any airline is afraid of competing with DL. Especially on domestic flights against the shambles that is the DL Connection operation at DTW.

Your posting on another thread was deleted due your rant about Delta Connection.

Start giving us facts, please.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 9): What people lose sight of is that Detroit has more international service than it's ever had, despite the city's decline.

Very true but even with that limited selection we had more choice price and schedule wise. Right now at DTW you have 3 choices that's it DL, AF and LH before in the 80's and even into the early 90's you had MP,DE,JU,BA,PA,SN,TZ AND FI all in various price ranges not so anymore.

I don't see substantial additional service to DTW in the near/medium term future. If TK or an ME3 player enters the market, that will be the end of the RJ service to DTW.

The Detroit metro area economy is doing substantially better now than it was in the 2007-2012 period. Having said that, I think the current level of service is probably well-matched to the current demand.

I think EK is a pipe dream I think the only real possabilities are QR, TK and FI with LO being a very remote chance

Quoting Seat1F (Reply 15):

I agree with this if TK enters Detroit but not one of the ME3 as they would target more the India market and would have more effect on the LH DTW-FRA flight

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2): As for O&D, DTW does have an enormous catchment. DTW basically is the point of departure for just about anyone within a 3 hour drive radius. But the population density is not huge and it just isn't a huge business center anymore.

The DTW catchment area is about 6 million people, but the reality is some leisure travelers will drive 3-4 hours or more in search of cheaper fares. Population alone isn't a good measure as the propensity to travel is based on many socioeconomic factors. Much of the DTW catchment population is blue collar. On the other hand there is a solid white collar population that does travel alot for business and leisure. Metro Detroit and Michigan is very provincial; it is not the transient and/or global population found in larger global cities. Many are born-and-raised people from the Midwest.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3): Detroit is a great hub for Asia which has to be one reason Delta wanted Northwest so badly, a better Asian hub then MSP. With the coming A350-900 fleet and the 777-200LR Delta should be able to go nonstop to any place it needs to in Asia.

I don't think the new aircraft radically change the destinations in Asia that can realistically be served from DTW. Global economic factors and currency exchange rates are a much bigger factor than aircraft capabilities.

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 4): It will be interesting to see what will happen next, with YXU getting their schedule cut, and with them being(roughly)the halfway point between YYZ and DTW.

YXU is a relatively small market. Domestic Canada traffic and even much of the cross-border is likely to go to YYZ. Driving and dealing with the border crossing in Detroit isn't going to be a much better option. Some of that may go to BUF instead. Right now with the current exchange rates, its killing a lot of the cross-border leisure demand anyways.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 5): I don't think any airline is afraid of competing with DL. Especially on domestic flights against the shambles that is the DL Connection operation at DTW. The main reason there isn't more service to DTW is that the amount of O/D traffic isn't there to support more. Detroit was once a thriving city of business and industry. Today it's a shell of what it used to be with little to no hope of ever recovering.

You regularly rant unfoundedly against Delta Connection. Delta Connection in DTW operates very seemlessly with mainline and your constant slander against DCI in all of your posts is unfounded.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6): I agree it's better than MSP with the Auto industry alone, but isn't DL trying to make SEA their Asian gateway?

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 7): Wouldn't Delta be big enough to have more than 1 Asian gateway? They have more than one to Europe. . . . JFK and ATL. I don't think it's an either or situation.

DL is pursuing a dual Asian gateway strategy. SEA is intended for SEA O&D and west coast connecting traffic. DTW is intended to be the Midwest and East Coast gateway. Much of the Asian feed for the DTW service comes from markets like BOS, NYC, WAS, BNA, RDU, CHM, CVG, PIT, etc many of which are not viable to connect to SEA or result in much longer in-transit times since its much longer flight times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 9): What people lose sight of is that Detroit has more international service than it's ever had, despite the city's decline.

Yes, agreed

Quoting UA444 (Reply 11): Wasn't their talk of EK or some of the gulf carriers serving DTW with the huge middle eastern population there? Also CZ?

So much rumor, speculation, and theoretical speak. I'll believe it when I see it. Yes DTW has a large middle eastern population but I'm highly skeptical of their propensity to travel back to the Middle East.

DTW has found itself to be what CVG used to be. Lots of service but very high "opportunistic" O & D fares

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1): The reality is that DTW is not a large O&D market that many of these routes can stand along without feed on the US side. DL has the power of the hub to suppliment the O&D with connecting traffic all over the Midwest.

Total passenger numbers, DL daily flight count, and DL passenger count are comparable to MSP.

BTS reports show that domestic O&D passenger counts are 4.0-5.0 million passengers annually, a bit smaller than MSP but alongside MCO and IAH.

DTW market for air travel is not small and impoverished. The city of Detroit represents a small fraction of the DTW catchment. This would be a good time to bring data instead of ill-founded prejudices to the argument.</body></html>"/>

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 9): Even though the Detroit auto companies are much less dominant now than they were 43 years ago, and the metro area's population is smaller and less well off, DL's ability to gather passengers from throughout the country has enabled them to offer an almost unimaginable array of international flights.

While the metro area's population may be "smaller and less well off", the auto industry, of which I am a part of, is much more of a global enterprise now than it was is 1973. Much of DL's global offerings from DTW are focused on flights where there is front-of-cabin demand to major centers of the global automobile industry - PVG, ICN, NRT, NGO, FRA, GRU, and to some degree PEK all fit this bill. This demand includes people from US auto makers and suppliers flying to operations around the globe, as well as people from foreign auto makers and suppliers flying to the center of the industry in the US. It is this demand, augmented with one-stop demand from across the US, that allows DL to sustain these flights.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18): Yes DTW has a large middle eastern population but I'm highly skeptical of their propensity to travel back to the Middle East.

Well, RJ has been able to sustain a flight to Detroit for years, probably feeding off the large Palestinian and Jordanian population and their business/VFR traffic. Many Arabs in metro Detroit are blue collar, but many also maintain close ties with the 'old world', and when they travel they tend to bring the whole entourage(=more seats filled). I really think that one of the ME3 could easily replace the RJ flight and draw customers traveling to MENA/India/Africa away from DL. QR/EK/EY have much better options for flights within the region than the European airlines DL passengers are most likely connecting onto. I'm putting my money on EK swooping in by surprise to give DL another poke in the eye.

Too many people seem to be underestimating the future welfare of Detroit and SE Michigan. Since the city has exited bankruptcy there has been substantial continued investment into the city. When the city itself is on a path towards growth the region stands to benefit. Realistically, it won't be over night but a good indication of what direction a city or region is going in is population. The latest census numbers are not peachy, as Detroit is now outside the 20 most populous cities in the US, but it appears to be bottoming out: http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...etroit-population-census/84546630/

Now does this mean that future air service might expand at DTW? Maybe, maybe not. The airport saw its highest passenger count in 2005 if I'm not mistaken. It has declined and stagnated since then. Whether the recession was to blame or not, I'm no expert to know for sure.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 19): DTW has found itself to be what CVG used to be. Lots of service but very high "opportunistic" O & D fares

DTW's BTS average fares are about in the middle of the pack. It's nowhere near as bad as CVG once was. With NK, WN, F9, and B6 around, there enough competition to keep things reasonable. You may have to connect to get where you are going, but there are usually cheaper options if you are willing to look around.

[Edited 2016-06-05 21:20:33]

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18): The DTW catchment area is about 6 million people, but the reality is some leisure travelers will drive 3-4 hours or more in search of cheaper fares. Population alone isn't a good measure as the propensity to travel is based on many socioeconomic factors. Much of the DTW catchment population is blue collar. On the other hand there is a solid white collar population that does travel alot for business and leisure. Metro Detroit and Michigan is very provincial; it is not the transient and/or global population found in larger global cities. Many are born-and-raised people from the Midwest.

Well put. Chicago is not far away, but it is very different.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 23): Too many people seem to be underestimating the future welfare of Detroit and SE Michigan. Since the city has exited bankruptcy there has been substantial continued investment into the city. When the city itself is on a path towards growth the region stands to benefit. Realistically, it won't be over night but a good indication of what direction a city or region is going in is population. The latest census numbers are not peachy, as Detroit is now outside the 20 most populous cities in the US, but it appears to be bottoming out: http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...etroit-population-census/84546630/

I'm from the Detroit Area. I got to watch its long, slow decline from 1980 to 2008. In 2008 things pretty much hit rock bottom. There were decent homes in decent neighborhoods in the city for $10,000. I heard you can get some of the old architectural gems for free if you promise to fix them up and make them your primary residence.

But until the state legislature stops making business-unfriendly socially-regressive laws that make it hard to get good talent to move there, there are going to be problems turning Detroit into a tech center or a center for any other industry.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6): but isn't DL trying to make SEA their Asian gateway?

Not solely.

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 7): I don't think it's an either or situation.

  

....DL is very careful with its wording. You'll essentially never see any company PR referring to SEA as their Asian Gateway without the words "West Coast" placed next to it as a qualifier.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 23): The airport saw its highest passenger count in 2005 if I'm not mistaken.

There was an article in my local paper yesterday about all the new concessions at DTW. It mentioned passenger traffic was up significantly in 2015. I cannot remember what year it stated, but it was the most passengers in several years.

edit:spelling

[Edited 2016-06-06 05:36:57]

Quoting michman (Reply 24): DTW's BTS average fares are about in the middle of the pack. It's nowhere near as bad as CVG once was. With NK, WN, F9, and B6 around, there enough competition to keep things reasonable. You may have to connect to get where you are going, but there are usually cheaper options if you are willing to look around.

While I agree decent fares to most major markets can be had it is internationally where we are being gouged compared to other markets in the region which I really think needs to be addressed and bringing in FI or one of the ME3 could help a great deal and I think is very sustainable as far as domestic addtions I see maybe a DTW-LAX on American but other than that there is not much more given the limited opportunities as far as domestic carriers that still exsist.

Another question is why does Delta not allow more of it's skyteam members into the Detroit market KL,AM and now the loss of VS if I had my choice I would much rather use a KL or AF flight out of Detroit than a Delta flight internationally and when given a comparable price option would without a doubt book away from Delta and rather chose the European carrier than fly Delta

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 22): Well, RJ has been able to sustain a flight to Detroit for years, probably feeding off the large Palestinian and Jordanian population and their business/VFR traffic

The major ME nationality in the Detroit area is Lebanese. After that, you have Iraqi Chaldeans and then probably Yemenis.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 29): Another question is why does Delta not allow more of it's skyteam members into the Detroit market

With the TATL JV, it's all the same.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 20): otal passenger numbers, DL daily flight count, and DL passenger count are comparable to MSP. BTS reports show that domestic O&D passenger counts are 4.0-5.0 million passengers annually, a bit smaller than MSP but alongside MCO and IAH.

Right, exactly. The point I was making like you illustrated is that DTW, while still a big market, isn't in the top-tier of markets in the US. Its not NYC, LAX, SFO, MIA, BOS, WAS. Even places like DFW & ATL tend to have more O&D I believe. It sits solidly in the second tier of places like MSP, IAH, DEN, SEA, etc. Some of those tend to have more/different global ties that DTW.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 21): While the metro area's population may be "smaller and less well off", the auto industry, of which I am a part of, is much more of a global enterprise now than it was is 1973. Much of DL's global offerings from DTW are focused on flights where there is front-of-cabin demand to major centers of the global automobile industry - PVG, ICN, NRT, NGO, FRA, GRU, and to some degree PEK all fit this bill. This demand includes people from US auto makers and suppliers flying to operations around the globe, as well as people from foreign auto makers and suppliers flying to the center of the industry in the US. It is this demand, augmented with one-stop demand from across the US, that allows DL to sustain these flights.

Exactly. The global automotive industry is still basically centered around Metro Detroit and the ties to the global regional centers for technical, engineering, and manufacturing capabilities. While the O&D for these places isn't enough to likely hold on their own, the connections make it viable. Markets like said - PVG, NGO, NRT, FRA, (LH FRA service), MEX, MTY all address a lot of the demand for the global automotive and manufacturing traffic that is based out of DTW and the broader Midwest and Ohio Valley regions.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 22): Well, RJ has been able to sustain a flight to Detroit for years, probably feeding off the large Palestinian and Jordanian population and their business/VFR traffic. Many Arabs in metro Detroit are blue collar, but many also maintain close ties with the 'old world', and when they travel they tend to bring the whole entourage(=more seats filled). I really think that one of the ME3 could easily replace the RJ flight and draw customers traveling to MENA/India/Africa away from DL. QR/EK/EY have much better options for flights within the region than the European airlines DL passengers are most likely connecting onto. I'm putting my money on EK swooping in by surprise to give DL another poke in the eye

I do think sooner or later one of the ME3 will venture into DTW, but not all of them. A number of the Middle Eastern immigrants in Metro Detroit are now 2nd or even 3rd generation here in the US. I do think the demand from DTW to the Middle East tends to be a bit overstated in context to overall demand from other cities in the US.

Quoting michman (Reply 24): DTW's BTS average fares are about in the middle of the pack. It's nowhere near as bad as CVG once was. With NK, WN, F9, and B6 around, there enough competition to keep things reasonable. You may have to connect to get where you are going, but there are usually cheaper options if you are willing to look around.

Most major markets out of DTW domestically have competition. Most of the big leisure/sun markets do, plus most of the big O&D cities. Only a handful of other airline hubs do not have nonstops into DTW. That said, I've found fares to be reasonable where competition. Markets like Florida (outside of spring break period), DEN, LAX, ORD, SEA, DCA, DFW all to have very reasonable fares. I'd the shorter nonstop markets without competition that will soak you e.g., SDF, RIC, MSN, MSP, etc.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 28): While I agree decent fares to most major markets can be had it is internationally where we are being gouged compared to other markets in the region which I really think needs to be addressed and bringing in FI or one of the ME3 could help a great deal and I think is very sustainable as far as domestic addtions I see maybe a DTW-LAX on American but other than that there is not much more given the limited opportunities as far as domestic carriers that still exsist

I think people tend to remember years back when deals were plentiful on international routes, but everyone has gotten better at adjusting capacity vs demand so they don't have to give away seats like they used to. Out of DTW, during peak spring and summer they can sell the seats to Europe for very high fares since of all of the demand. Better prices can obviously be had during the off-season/winter months. This isn't unique to DL or DTW though.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 29): Another question is why does Delta not allow more of it's skyteam members into the Detroit market KL,AM and now the loss of VS if I had my choice I would much rather use a KL or AF flight out of Detroit than a Delta flight internationally and when given a comparable price option would without a doubt book away from Delta and rather chose the European carrier than fly Delta

KL, AF, and VS flights are all scheduled and governed under the joint-venture agreements where with DL they determine what carriers will operate the respective flights. They share the revenue and costs associated with the flights so in essence its metal-neutral.

They determine who best to operate flights based on aircraft type/capacity, operations/scheduling, brand influence, maintaining the balance of flights/ASMs between the carriers and other factors. For the most part, it makes more sense to have DL operate the flights out of their domestic hubs with a few exceptions.

AF has been operating one of the CDG flights for many years now. VS is operating one of the LHR flights, but apparently in Summer 2017 this will revert to DL as VS takes-over a SEA-LHR flight. KLM only has made brief apperaances in the past 10 years, which prior to that had been a regular sight at DTW.

As for preference, its all highly subjective. The European carriers don't stand out much one way or another as because of the JV they've aligned services pretty closely where possible.

If MEA is ever allowed to fly to the U.S., a DTW-BEY flight could probably make it. In the short term, if an ME carrier is to start DTW, TK seems like the best choice. I believe the 332 would have the range for DTW-IST. However, with EK claiming that they want to get to 20 U.S. destinations, DTW has to be on that list.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 31): They determine who best to operate flights based on aircraft type/capacity, operations/scheduling, brand influence, maintaining the balance of flights/ASMs between the carriers and other factors. For the most part, it makes more sense to have DL operate the flights out of their domestic hubs with a few exceptions.

Correct but Detroit is a major international gateway for Delta the third in the system to be exact I think our lack of choice here in Detroit centers more around not wanting to dilute the Delta brand in peoples minds so you associate Delta with everything which again limits choice of service. Is the airport able to collect more money in any way when both JV partners operate out of the same airport or are all the airport fees for both airlines paid out of one fund ?

Quoting klm617 (Reply 33): Correct but Detroit is a major international gateway for Delta the third in the system to be exact I think our lack of choice here in Detroit centers more around not wanting to dilute the Delta brand in peoples minds so you associate Delta with everything which again limits choice of service. Is the airport able to collect more money in any way when both JV partners operate out of the same airport or are all the airport fees for both airlines paid out of one fund ?

Since the JV flights all utilize the McNamera Terminal and are ground handled by DL there really isn't much in the way of additional employment, fees, or other that would be incurred versus what would be a Delta flight. Maybe they sublease some office space at best but arguably it would be fees that DL would incur.

Some of it has to do with branding and other airports too. At a macro level there tends to be more point of sale traffic from Europe to the USA. However that may not necessarily be true in a market like DTW where it isn't a popular destination, outside of some business traffic. If they don't need the power of the local brand in Europe, DL is going to have more brand power in DTW than say KLM or AF. Plus, to keep things in balance, like VS may carry more brand value in a market like LHR-SEA versus DTW so they will make the swap accordingly.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 34): Some of it has to do with branding and other airports too. At a macro level there tends to be more point of sale traffic from Europe to the USA. However that may not necessarily be true in a market like DTW where it isn't a popular destination, outside of some business traffic. If they don't need the power of the local brand in Europe, DL is going to have more brand power in DTW than say KLM or AF. Plus, to keep things in balance, like VS may carry more brand value in a market like LHR-SEA versus DTW so they will make the swap accordingly.

Wth that being said ATL is no more a tourist destination than DTW is but yet the skyteam partners for the most part all serve ATL. So from your comment that would lead me to believe that Delta wants to capture as much of the transfer traffic as they can in ATL at the expenesne of DTW and MSP. Because in reality DTW-AMS and ATL-AMS probably are pretty close in O&D traffic so then why does ATL have 2 KLM flights and DTW has zero same aircraft and everything but with the KLM brand operating to ATL I think they want the brand recognition to be as broad as possible thus allowing all skyteam members into ATL to generate more traffic there.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 32): In the short term, if an ME carrier is to start DTW, TK seems like the best choice. I believe the 332 would have the range for DTW-IST. However, with EK claiming that they want to get to 20 U.S. destinations, DTW has to be on that list.

Also keep in mind that there is a fairly large Greek population in Michigan, too. So not just the Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. And many Greek-Americans ignore the "political correctness" factor, and will fly TK because it is a good airline, that gets them where they want to go. Not to mention the fact that, for several years, the US carriers cut frequency to ATH, and none of the Greek carriers that have the equipment with enough range.

Also what re the thoughts on a B6 Detroit to Orlando flight.

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 36): Not to mention the fact that, for several years, the US carriers cut frequency to ATH, and none of the Greek carriers that have the equipment with enough range.

I feel like that trend is just about completely reversed now, though. This summer DL has 2x daily 333 on JFK-ATH, AA has 1x daily 333 on PHL-ATH, and UA has 1x daily 763 on EWR-ATH. That's more capacity than when Olympic was still flying JFK-ATH a few years ago. And between PHL, EWR, and JFK, one stop connectivity from pretty much every major metro area in the U.S. to ATH.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 37): Also what re the thoughts on a B6 Detroit to Orlando flight.

I think it's only a matter of time. MCO is DTW's 3rd busiest destination (I think year-round). B6 would crazy not to tap into that market.

People lose sight of the fact that there are two kinds of ethnic travellers.

People who are first generation immigrants travel far more to their homelands than people who have been in the US for several generations.

Although the Detroit area has a Greek community, most of the members of this community have been in the US long enough that they don't need to go home every year or two to see their parents and siblings.

The same is true, to a lesser extent, with Detroit's Arab community. The big surge in immigration from the Middle East to the Detroit area took place in the 1950s and 1960s, when people left their farms in Yemen, Lebanon, etc for higher paying jobs in Detroit's auto factories. The Arabs who live in the Detroit area are mainly the children and grandchildren of these immigrants. They've lived in Detroit all their lives with their families, they have weak ties to their extended families in the Middle East, and they are only likely to go back two or three times in their lifetimes.

That's why I don't think the traffic between the Detroit area and the Middle East is sufficient to fill up several flights a day.

PSU, or someone else, what are the exact passengers / day from Detroit to the main cities in Greece / the Middle East?

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 23): The airport saw its highest passenger count in 2005 if I'm not mistaken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Metropolitan_Airport
True. But slowly catching up.

In the meantime, 15 gates at the north end in concourse C have been deactivated. Discussed a year ago, and the map offered at the airport website reflects it.
Several Gates Closed At DTW's Concourse C (by A332DTW Jan 5 2015 in Civil Aviation)
http://www.metroairport.com/Maps/TerminalMaps.aspx

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 41): In the meantime, 15 gates at the north end in concourse C have been deactivated. Discussed a year ago, and the map offered at the airport website reflects it.

Word around the airport is that DL wanted to demolish that northern end of concourse C, but WCAA put the brakes on it. Apparently WCAA is not so quick to destroy potential gate lease, they do own the building after all (last I checked). I think that would clear up any suspicion on whether the county is wrapped around DL's finger or not.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 40): People who are first generation immigrants travel far more to their homelands than people who have been in the US for several generations.

In my own experience living in Detroit, a large percentage of the first generation immigrants that I've met have come from places like Syria, Yemen, and Iraq. The current political situations in these countries, and the fact that many of these immigrants have come to the US fleeing these conflicts, limit the demand for travel to these countries.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 42): Word around the airport is that DL wanted to demolish that northern end of concourse C, but WCAA put the brakes on it. Apparently WCAA is not so quick to destroy potential gate lease, they do own the building after all (last I checked). I think that would clear up any suspicion on whether the county is wrapped around DL's finger or not.

That is good news that the WCAA put the brakes on that but that in no way effects Delta bottom line in Detroit just like the new Spirit hanger doesn't where as bringing in anyone who directly competes with Delta and may effect Delta's bottom line by offering lower fares which Delta might feel compelled to match causing them to lose revenue now that's a whole different story.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 44): That is good news that the WCAA put the brakes on that but that in no way effects Delta bottom line in Detroit just like the new Spirit hanger doesn't where as bringing in anyone who directly competes with Delta and may effect Delta's bottom line by offering lower fares which Delta might feel compelled to match causing them to lose revenue now that's a whole different story

Face it, DTW is Delta's home, just like it was NW's. My wife is Platinum and to her, and most business travelers, nonstop flights to almost everywhere is worth money. When she first moved here, she tried connecting through ORD a couple of times in winter, even though I warned her. Never again. I've flown both AF and DL to Europe and really couldn't tell the difference.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 35): Wth that being said ATL is no more a tourist destination than DTW is but yet the skyteam partners for the most part all serve ATL. So from your comment that would lead me to believe that Delta wants to capture as much of the transfer traffic as they can in ATL at the expenesne of DTW and MSP. Because in reality DTW-AMS and ATL-AMS probably are pretty close in O&D traffic so then why does ATL have 2 KLM flights and DTW has zero same aircraft and everything but with the KLM brand operating to ATL I think they want the brand recognition to be as broad as possible thus allowing all skyteam members into ATL to generate more traffic there.

The Joint-Venture arrangments between DL-KL-AF and DL-VS are much more than just the Skyteam Alliance. Its metal-neutral joint venture and they agree upon the schedules, equipment, and share revenue/costs on these flights.

There are multiple variables as to how they determine what routes get what airline and aircraft's metal. Some of its branding, but a lot of it is for operational purposes too. Some of it is branding in the US but a lot is to capture branding on the Europe side. They aren't slighting DTW by not flying KLM metal into DTW.

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 36): Also keep in mind that there is a fairly large Greek population in Michigan, too. So not just the Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. And many Greek-Americans ignore the "political correctness" factor, and will fly TK because it is a good airline, that gets them where they want to go. Not to mention the fact that, for several years, the US carriers cut frequency to ATH, and none of the Greek carriers that have the equipment with enough range.

The local population of Italians, Polish, and Greek immigrants are now about 4th or 5th generation deep here in the US and have almost negligible ties to their homelands as much of that was now pushing 80-100 years ago.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 37): Also what re the thoughts on a B6 Detroit to Orlando flight.

Flights from on DTW-MCO are generally like shooting fish in a barrel most months of the year. However O&D during summer months and shoulder season without any feed though may make for some lower yield and load factors though.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 41): In the meantime, 15 gates at the north end in concourse C have been deactivated. Discussed a year ago, and the map offered at the airport website reflects it.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 42): Word around the airport is that DL wanted to demolish that northern end of concourse C, but WCAA put the brakes on it. Apparently WCAA is not so quick to destroy potential gate lease, they do own the building after all (last I checked). I think that would clear up any suspicion on whether the county is wrapped around DL's finger or not

These were 15 gates, many utilizing a common hold room at the north end of Concourse C that were only suitable for the now retired Saab 340s and 50 seat RJs. With the reduced number of 50 seaters and increased gauge they didn't need as many gates.

DL originally wanted to knock down the north end of the concourse and use the area for hardstand/aircraft parking however DTW didn't want to do that (due to demolition costs and break-lease clauses). So instead the Delta Connection carriers are using the shuttered gates for aircraft parking. I think they did create a few hardstand/parking spots off the north end of C now by filling in some of the grassy areas between the ramp and taxiways.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 43): In my own experience living in Detroit, a large percentage of the first generation immigrants that I've met have come from places like Syria, Yemen, and Iraq. The current political situations in these countries, and the fact that many of these immigrants have come to the US fleeing these conflicts, limit the demand for travel to these countries.

Yes, and State Department issues with getting visas and/or traveling to many of these countries and areas of conflict.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 45): Face it, DTW is Delta's home, just like it was NW's. My wife is Platinum and to her, and most business travelers, nonstop flights to almost everywhere is worth money. When she first moved here, she tried connecting through ORD a couple of times in winter, even though I warned her. Never again. I've flown both AF and DL to Europe and really couldn't tell the difference.

I totally agree with this but the reality is Northwest was way more committed to enhancing Detroit as a hub than Delta will ever be.

Quoting klm617 (Reply 47): I totally agree with this but the reality is Northwest was way more committed to enhancing Detroit as a hub than Delta will ever be.

NW/KLM were like the first mini-alliance. Delta has ATL and JFK for most Europe flights. DTW and SEA are their Asian hubs. You should have been on a.net right after the merger. All the DL fanboys were saying that all the 744's were going to ATL, the A330's were going to be sold and DTW was going to be a backwater. With that background, DTW is doing quite well.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6): Detroit is a great hub for Asia which has to be one reason Delta wanted Northwest so badly, a better Asian hub then MSP. I agree it's better than MSP with the Auto industry alone, but isn't DL trying to make SEA their Asian gateway

SEA is a west coast Asian hub and DTW is their east coast hub since Detroit has nonstop to most cities within 3 hours flying time. The US3 have multiple Asian hubs cities, in US's case SFO is the main gateway to Asia but ORD, Newark and Houston also have flight to Asia. AA has turned LAX into a respectable Asian presence but their huge DFW hub has turned into AA main Asian gateway. AA also has flight from Chicago to Japan and China. In the future AA could have JFK( as they did once), Philadelphia or Miami flights to Japan and Asia.