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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:25 pm

There is nowhere in the investor guidance that says that they are going to convert more 762s from pax to freight. Nowhere. 763s, yes.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:30 pm

A388 wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
A388 wrote:
Does Amazon have any plans to fly outside of the U.S. with these 767's? If so, which countries/cities do they plan to serve themselves?


A388


Not sure about that yet. Though with that being said, I just heard that the Chinese investors that won the bid to buy Hahn Airport defaulted on the loan, so I'm guessing it will go or is back on the market. Not sure though. That doesn't necessarily mean Amazon is still interested in purchasing, if available, but the door could be open again if they decide they want a European hub operation.


Thanks Acey559. What about flights to the Americas. I can imagine Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Colombia are big markets for Amazon with good potential(?)


A388


You are very welcome. I have to assume you're correct about connecting more dots. It's pretty amazing to think about the potential of Amazon to grow this operation into something huge. I think the big thing right now is just getting the logistics squared away.

Planes are coming steadily and station hiring is in full swing, but there are just SO many markets Amazon can connect, I think it will be a lot of fun to watch.

We pulled onto the ramp at ILN this morning and saw N255CM ready to go, so it looks like it's done with conformity and is on the cert now.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
A388
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:30 pm

Acey559, I heard Amazon has already chosen an airport in Germany to use for a European distribution center. Is this correct? I'm getting the impression they are just getting started in the U.S. now and focusing on the U.S. market and nothing else. Is Amazon also looking at distribution centers outside the U.S. now?

A388
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:36 pm

A distribution center is what Amazon calls a warehouse. They already have several in Europe.
 
BTVB6Flyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:39 pm

Do people think Amazon will try to build more 'hubs', around the US? Or will focus it rather on more P2P flying?

Would be interesting to see how much further TPA expands, especially after they just added PHX and ABE to TPA's network.
 
A388
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
A distribution center is what Amazon calls a warehouse. They already have several in Europe.


Okay thanks wjcandee, that is much appreciated. Do they already have a plan to which airports they will be flying those Prime Air 767's too outside of the U.S.? Do they also have warehouses/distribution centers/fulfillment centers/sorting facilities in Central and/or South America or planning on something?

A388
 
A388
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:22 pm

Guys, just to be sure. Am I seeing it right that Amazon will lease 20 767's from ATSG and 20 767's from Atlas Air to fly for them? Meaning in total they have 40 767's flying for them soon?

A388
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:26 pm

A388, correct. Initially rumoured 20 with a third carrier, but yet to be seen. ATSG's 20 will be in service by end of 2017, if not sooner. They are already at 10 and are averaging 1 per month thru end of 2016.
 
A388
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:31 pm

wjcandee wrote:
A388, correct. Initially rumoured 20 with a third carrier, but yet to be seen. ATSG's 20 will be in service by end of 2017, if not sooner. They are already at 10 and are averaging 1 per month thru end of 2016.


Again thanks for your feedback wjcandee, very much appreciated. What's Amazon's plan after those lease agreements expire after 5 to 7 years? Are they doing this now to see how the operation goes when they do the flying "in-house" so speak and decide after those contracts expire whether they want to buy their own cargo aircraft to do the flying completely themselves? Or will Amazon keep using third parties to do the flying for them after those 5 to 7 years?


A388
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:53 pm

A388 wrote:
Thanks Acey559. What about flights to the Americas. I can imagine Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Colombia are big markets for Amazon with good potential(?)


I highly doubt this. Amazon is using the 767s to supplement their long haul network to feed their last mile delivery services. (Which is often USPS, but also Amazon Flex, and I'm sure other carriers pickup and deliver packages in the same region for them.) Before the 767s, Amazon was and still is trucking packages from FCs a day and a half away and then labeling and inserting them into the last mile.

Of the Americas Amazon has websites for Brazil, Mexico, Canada, and of course the US.

Brazil only seems to sell books, and per Wikipedia Amazon doesn't have any fulfillment centers in Brazil (Amazon doesn't publish a list of their FCs, so I'm going off Wikipedia's entry.) So I guess they're either fulfilling this from the US and using UPS (expensive) or fulfilling this from a drop shipper. (Which happens to be how they started in the US.)

Amazon has one fulfillment center in Mexico. They could transfer inventory between the two, and pack packages in the US for labeling and delivery from the Mexico FC, but I'm not sure how high up on the list that'd be. Amazon is cheap, so I think they'd much rather their suppliers figure out how to get the package into Mexico. If there is anything going between the US and Mexico, I'd suspect it'd be cheaper to truck it. (Amazon already has a large trucking operation that it outsourced for operation similar to the 767s.)

I'd see Amazon implementing this in Europe before they do elsewhere. (Brexit being an unknown here.) They already have a large number of FCs in Europe (26 by my count to the US's (too many to count) ;-) ) Plus importantly they already have merged their Amazon Marketplace/Seller operations into a pan-European operation.

The only way I could see Amazon servicing other markets is if they regularly have a full 767's worth of packages a week to one of those countries and even then its a lot of logistics for perhaps not much savings..

[Edit: Little bit of clarity and removing a CR in the middle of a sentence.]
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:42 am

So the next new flight started today, connecting two existing nodes, SCK and ABE. ABX3114 is running SCK-ABE this morning. Interesting to see if it just turns back to SCK, or goes somewhere new, like CLT or RFD, two rumoured upcoming nodes. Edit: It went on to CLT, a new station, as ABX3113, and back to SCK as ABX 3115.

Here's the network in a nutshell, now. Amazing how it is expanding. (ABX has done a lot of subservice for ATI the last few days, basically covering the DFW-ILN-DFW and PHX-ILN-PHX trips due to maintenance issues on a couple of ATI 762s.)

GTi3401 SEA-ILN
GTI3402 ILN-SEA

ABX3101 ILN-ONT
ABD3102 ONT-ILN
ABX3103 ILN-TPA
ABX3104 TPA-ILN
ABX3107 ABE-ONT
ABX3108 DFW-ABE
ABX3109 TPA-PHX
ABX3110 ONT-DFW
ABX 3111 ABE-TPA
ABX 3112 PHX-ABE
ABX 3113 ABE-CLT
ABX 3114 SCK-ABE
ABX 3115 CLT-SCK

ATN 3001 ABE-ILN
ATN 3002 ILN-ABE
ATN 3003 ILN-SCK
ATN 3004 SCK-ILN
ATN 3005 ILN-PHX
ATN 3006 PHX-ILN
ATN 3007 ILN-DFW
ATN 3008 DFW-ILN
ATN 3009 ILN-SCK
ATN 3010 SCK-DFW
ATN 3012 DFW-ILN
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Noshow
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:45 am

Is Amazon considered to be a possible 747-8F customer down the line?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:26 pm

Probably not. Too much capacity for foreseeable future.
 
bravoindia
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:19 pm

ABX3313 was second CLT today. Maybe a second daily? I would doubt it as the SCK inbound was delayed. If it was maybe they should get a 748f so I get to work it every day!
Jet-A, coffee, headset.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:00 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So the next new flight started today, connecting two existing nodes, SCK and ABE. ABX3114 is running SCK-ABE this morning. Interesting to see if it just turns back to SCK, or goes somewhere new, like CLT or RFD, two rumoured upcoming nodes. Edit: It went on to CLT, a new station, as ABX3113, and back to SCK as ABX 3115.

Here's the network in a nutshell, now. Amazing how it is expanding. (ABX has done a lot of subservice for ATI the last few days, basically covering the DFW-ILN-DFW and PHX-ILN-PHX trips due to maintenance issues on a couple of ATI 762s.)

GTi3401 SEA-ILN
GTI3402 ILN-SEA

ABX3101 ILN-ONT
ABD3102 ONT-ILN
ABX3103 ILN-TPA
ABX3104 TPA-ILN
ABX3107 ABE-ONT
ABX3108 DFW-ABE
ABX3109 TPA-PHX
ABX3110 ONT-DFW
ABX 3111 ABE-TPA
ABX 3112 PHX-ABE
ABX 3113 ABE-CLT
ABX 3114 SCK-ABE
ABX 3115 CLT-SCK

ATN 3001 ABE-ILN
ATN 3002 ILN-ABE
ATN 3003 ILN-SCK
ATN 3004 SCK-ILN
ATN 3005 ILN-PHX
ATN 3006 PHX-ILN
ATN 3007 ILN-DFW
ATN 3008 DFW-ILN
ATN 3009 ILN-SCK
ATN 3010 SCK-DFW
ATN 3012 DFW-ILN


In map form:
Image
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:08 am

Love the map!
 
luv2cattlecall
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:21 am

Any idea what types of items they're carrying on these flights? Are they slow moving items with a high value:weight ratio?
 
A388
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:56 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Love the map!


Yes, I love that map too. It makes the Amazon route network "reach" well visible. So these are the current routes that Amazon is flying with their own aircraft so to speak (ATSG and Atlas Air contracts)? Is there now more clarity as to whether the 40 aircraft they will be using, will all be used for domestic routes or whether there are international routes planned as well?

Wjcandee, I sent you a private message last week with a few questions. Have you received it?


Cheers,

A388
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:52 pm

luv2cattlecall wrote:
Any idea what types of items they're carrying on these flights? Are they slow moving items with a high value:weight ratio?


Second-day-delivery packages that have to be sourced from a distribution center outside the area that could service the destination by ground line-haul. The air line-haul is layered on top of the existing Amazon in-house ground delivery system. Many such packages also travel by FedEx or UPS, but some of this particular type of volume is coming in-house.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:38 pm

Rockford, IL will be starting soon. I'm not sure when, but we found out last week that the next city behind Charlotte will be Rockford.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:15 pm

wjcandee wrote:
A distribution center is what Amazon calls a warehouse. They already have several in Europe.

Amazon hopes their competition only considers them a warehouse. My brother happens to be working on Amazon's next generation distribution center. If you think of them as only a warehouse, you will be expending a HUGE amount of not-required labor to move around the goods.


Amazon has very sophisticated differential equation based models to simulate costs. They've hired the 'right people' to model their network and figure out where the greatest cost savings will come from. The 'last mile' Amazon fresh trucks are one aspect of this. Every day at 7pm to 8pm, that truck delivers in my neighborhood. About a third of the stuff comes off that truck. I'd guess about a third off "plain white vans" or what seems to be Uber deliveries. Most of the rest is the USPS. All based on models to lower year round costs.

This fleet of 767s is part of that. They have modeled utilization between centers.
"Warehouses" for Amazon package goods then ship them to 'distribution centers.'
'Distribution centers' package the goods for shipment into a dedicated region. Only then are the goods individually boxed to go to your home or business. Until then, Amazon is bulk shipping goods. Judging from the route map (hat tip to DLASFlyer), this looks to be distribution center to distribution center shipments, not warehouse to warehouse.

Eventually Amazon will combine a warehouse (or two) with the distribution centers. But that will take them refining their warehouses. e.g., get the elevators working right to better vertically stack the goods.

Lightsaber
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BasilFawlty
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:02 pm

A388 wrote:
Acey559, I heard Amazon has already chosen an airport in Germany to use for a European distribution center. Is this correct? I'm getting the impression they are just getting started in the U.S. now and focusing on the U.S. market and nothing else. Is Amazon also looking at distribution centers outside the U.S. now?


wjcandee wrote:
A distribution center is what Amazon calls a warehouse. They already have several in Europe.

They are using an ASL Airlines France 737-400F since last autumn which operates WRO-DSA-KSF-WRO every morning on weekdays. Amazon has distribution centres at all those places.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:21 am

lightsaber wrote:
'Distribution centers' package the goods for shipment into a dedicated region. Only then are the goods individually boxed to go to your home or business. Until then, Amazon is bulk shipping goods. Judging from the route map (hat tip to DLASFlyer), this looks to be distribution center to distribution center shipments, not warehouse to warehouse.


Actually, what Amazon primarily does with the flights is to layer their traffic into the existing Amazon last-mile setup for their in-house ground line-haul. So, for example, they have a Postal Sorting Center in Avenel, NJ that processes and ships packages out by local Amazon couriers to the Postal DDUs ("Post Offices"), for delivery that same day. When Avenel was opened, it received line-hauls from Distribution Centers as far south as Delaware, for delivery by USPS and others to the NYC area. Those line-hauls were of individually-boxed packages, prepared at the DCs. The air line-haul is primarily the same thing, except from distribution centers further away. So they can in-house a two-day delivery to my place in NYC from Delware by truck, and by air from TPA or SCK. It is individually boxed at the DC, built into a pallet for the destination sort center, rides either through ILN where the whole pallet is cross-docked to the ABE flight or goes right to ABE from origins. At ABE, the pallets for Avenel are put on a tractor-trailer, and arrive at Avenel just like something being driven from Delware, and are handled the same. So, on one day, I got from the USPS a package from an Amazon DC in the Northeast, which had been driven to Avenel, and a package from the Rusk DC (near Tampa), which had been palletized in Tampa, run TPA-ILN-ABE, and delivered to me in two days with the package from from the Northeastern DC which had made it to Avenel by truck.

As you note (and I noted earlier), some of the USPS last-mile 2-day volume is also diverted to the Fresh trucks and other couriers, as Amazon wants its eggs in multiple baskets, depending on what kind of in-house contract last-mile courier coverage they have (or are introducing) in a particular zip code.
 
A340Spotter
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:30 am

Was out at Wilmington this morning to do some photography and noted a second Prime Air colored B767 parked directly behind the main security entrance. Was this N374CM by chance or another one coming online? Really nice to see the airport buzzing again!
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FX1816
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:46 am

Anyone have any info on future routes. Here at ONT we are hearing that a 3rd ABX flight should start in the next week or so but I do not know the routing. We at the tower are also being told that there are to be at least 5 ABX flights out of ONT by years end.

Thanks
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:32 am

A340Spotter wrote:
Was out at Wilmington this morning to do some photography and noted a second Prime Air colored B767 parked directly behind the main security entrance. Was this N374CM by chance or another one coming online? Really nice to see the airport buzzing again!


Well, 374CM is definitely in Amazon Prime colors. The only one that the public knows about being in Prime colors is N1997A, leased from Titan and operated by Atlas, the one that rolled out in the new colors in the big press showing. ATSG's birds were too busy actually flying. So you might have seen either one, but most likely it was 374, unless you happened to be there when the Atlas bird was on the ground (between 10:43am and 12:34am today).
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:37 am

FX1816 wrote:
Anyone have any info on future routes. Here at ONT we are hearing that a 3rd ABX flight should start in the next week or so but I do not know the routing. We at the tower are also being told that there are to be at least 5 ABX flights out of ONT by years end.

Thanks


I'm guessing you will see ONT-RFD, or something like ONT-RFD-ILN-ONT. It's an EWAG, but RFD is supposed to come on this week, and ramp quickly to several flights a day.

Five sounds right for ONT, and for SCK, too.

It may be ABX, or it may be ATN or even GTI. So far, they seem unconcerned about mixing two ATSG carriers at any particular station. Put another way, they aren't setting it up so only one carrier's planes are overnighting at any particular station.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:59 am

New Prime painted aircraft is the former N374CM, since re-registered N307AZ. New flying coming up will be a ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT routing. I'm taking the plane out to ONT from ILN next Thursday to start that up. We will leave ONT at 11PM local to RFD, then depart for CLT at 6:30AM local to CLT. We layover in CLT and depart for ONT the following day at 10:56AM.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:24 am

So it's flown by ATN. Thanks for the update, Acey!!!
 
FX1816
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:26 pm

Thanks for the update guys. Acey559, so we will have the ATN 763 in Prime colors at ONT this Thursday? It's nice to see any kind of uptick in traffic here at ONT. Any idea on where flights 4 and 5 to ONT will eventually go?
 
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AirportRival
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:24 pm

Sorry if I missed it up thread but who does the ground handling for Amazon at ILN?
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:45 pm

 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:54 pm

Any time. I can't say for certain which plane they'll use, but it would be pretty cool if the Prime aircraft is through with conformity and ready to go by then.

As for extra flights out of ONT, we haven't heard but I know ABE is poised for more flights, so that could be a possibility. Beyond that I'm not sure, we usually only find out a couple weeks before service starts.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:07 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Someone could lose his shirt if things go south:

http://theloadstar.co.uk/atlas-executiv ... th-amazon/

It has been revealed that Amazon has the right to cancel the aircraft CMI deal agreed with Atlas Air at just 180 days’ notice, in terms that will surely be questioned by investors at next week’s earnings call.

Under the terms of the agreement, Amazon appears to be holding all the cards. Amazon has the right to dry-lease 20 B767Fs from Atlas subsidiary Titan and receive aircraft operation (CMI) services from Atlas, but the internet giant may cancel the CMI deal with just 180 days’ notice merely for the sake of “convenience”.


A good read article!


This is an example of the weakness in the air cargo industry. Amazon saw an opening and drove a hard bargain.

Too little freight, too much space

http://www.economist.com/news/business/ ... much-space
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:32 pm

Looks like the Amazon-painted 763 was on an ILN-ILN flight today. Maybe Acey will be lucky enough to be the first to fly it in revenue service, to/from ONT on Thursday.

(Also seems like Amazon used Premier in RME to paint the Atlas bird as well as this one. RME might be an interesting spot to do a little sleuthing, particularly as to whether Amazon changes to a yellow smile, as I think it should, in the future.)
 
dlramp4life
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:00 am

AirportRival wrote:
Sorry if I missed it up thread but who does the ground handling for Amazon at ILN?


The company handling the ILN operation is LGSTX. It is one of the companies under the ATSG tree.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:31 am

Hi: And down in the South, rumor goes that Amazon will buy RF from ATLAS , to get a B767-300F operating certificate.
ATLAS did communicated to RF's workers his intentions to sell the company and that they have an "undisclosed buyer" , except "it is not an airlines commercial company"
At present time, RF is a company without planes, they does not own their metal (they flight LATAM Cargo planes), but just a financial clean company, witcth comply with very frequently FAA's audits (FAA wants to be sure how operation is carried out "by the books" while not owning "the metals") a full ground "Desk" staff and a complete team of Pilots and Load Masters.
I repeat, it is just a Cabin's Rumor.
Rgds
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bravoindia
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:27 pm

Acey559 wrote:
Any time. I can't say for certain which plane they'll use, but it would be pretty cool if the Prime aircraft is through with conformity and ready to go by then.

As for extra flights out of ONT, we haven't heard but I know ABE is poised for more flights, so that could be a possibility. Beyond that I'm not sure, we usually only find out a couple weeks before service starts.


We in ABE ATC hope it continues to explode at Allentown so any updates there are appreciated
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cjg225
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:25 pm

bravoindia wrote:
We in ABE ATC hope it continues to explode at Allentown so any updates there are appreciated

I live about 4 miles away directly on the centerline for runway 24. It's definitely apparent how much traffic Amazon has brought to ABE as a resident of the Lehigh Valley for 26 years (and 18 years in this house). I wish I was a little off center so that I could actually see more than just the belly of most planes landing at ABE.

The eldest son of one of our very close family friends is in ATC for ABE, actually.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:43 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
Per our weekly newsletter update from our president:

Upcoming 767 assignment changes in the works include: 255/767-200 will be transitioning to ATI, from CAM on or about August 15; 364/767-300 will be transitioning to ABX to support a -300 upgrade requirement in the DHL network, for which 740/767-200 will be transitioning from ABX to ATI at a later date; 739/767-200 will be transitioning from CAM to ATI in September; 374/767-300 should be out of conversion soon and an ATI airplane to support Amazon; 380/767-300 will be next out of conversion and will be operated in the Amazon network beginning in November. Ultimately ATI will be adding 739, 374 and 380 to the Amazon network by November. 255 will operate in support of 757/767 heavy maintenance and other customer requirements.


Three more aircraft to ATI must make the pilot pool happy!

I'm also happy to see that the initial Atlas flights are rumoured to be flying through ILN. I don't think there is any permanent decision yet as to whether ILN will be the focus city, but the more flights that keep rolling through there, the better for the region.

Amazon is a tough taskmaster, though. If it isn't working, they will change it. Amazon could have been the savior of the USPS, given all the last-mile stuff that was rolling through the USPS from the Amazon in-house network. However, at least on Long Island, the USPS screwed it up, primarily on Sunday, when a bunch of packages (and most of my Sunday stuff) was mishandled by the Hicksville regional center. They would constantly claim "business closed" when I wasn't a business, and then just deliver it on Monday. They just didn't feel like delivering it on Sunday (that regional center is a cesspool), causing an avalanche of complaints. I thought it was ominous when the reply to one of mine was that they were "going to be using the USPS less". In the last two weeks, almost all of my Amazon in-house deliveries to Long Island, including Sunday, have been handled by an Amazon driver, who apparently also delivers Amazon Fresh. I feel bad because the during-the-week stuff through the USPS, happily handled by our wonderful mailman, was delivered flawlessly. So the USPS is losing the business that could have saved them because they f-ed it up, and Amazon has no patience for screw-ups.

That is the difference between a government entity and a private business. The managers at USPS do not have the same incentive to do things right that the managers at a private business do. The USPS is hopelessly obsolete and should be scrapped, but it is in the Constitution so it is hard to do. People working for the government just have a different mindset, and efficiency and good service just are not in their playbook.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 8941
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:05 pm

SEPilot, very true, although I was impressed with how flexible and aggressive USPS was to shift gears to more delivery days from a time when just months before they were trying to eliminate Saturday entirely. Unfortunately, in an organization that gigantic, not all the electrons are going to flow in the same direction. The fact is that the Amazon stuff that comes on weekdays is extremely reliable, because it is dropped by Amazon directly at our local post office and delivered by our wonderful mailman. There is accountability. When the stuff gets dropped off on Sunday at the central post office for this county of 330,000 people, no accountability so no reliability. That said, it appears that Amazon's diverting Sunday volume to its own trucks has awakened somebody in USPS management, because all of a sudden our Sunday packages are back at the USPS and coming reliably. We will see how long that lasts...

The USPS is interesting. When I was a partner in a restaurant chain down South, in the Atlanta area, there was an entirely different culture at the local post office than in NYC. The pay went a lot further, so I guess they got "better" people. Managers and staff took immense pride in what they did. Every Georgia post office I went into was not only clean, efficient, polite, skillful, and customer-focused, it was a meeting place for local businesspeople, who would chat in line as they dropped off their Express Mails in the afternoon. Ship by FedEx overnight? Why? We just take it to the post office where we are in and out in a jiffy. Totally different mindset, and totally-different customer base at the windows, than in NY. I imagine that it is this way in a lot of America. Amazon has so so so much volume, which is expected to rise another 50 percent in just a couple of years, that taking advantage of USPS's underused facilities is smart -- anyone else would have to make an even greater capital investment to try to do last mile than USPS does. And e-commerce generally might permit USPS to grow its way out of some of its deficits, so everyone should be cheering anything they manage to do well. But it's clear that if USPS doesn't perform, those "Postal Sorting Centers" that Amazon has built can just be called "Sorting Centers", and distribute to whatever network of local last-mile couriers they choose to establish.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 8941
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:13 pm

BravoIndia, ABE is the gateway to NYC and the tri-state area for Prime Air, so I think it's fair to bet that it's gonna be BIG. Amazon's Avenel, NJ, Postal Sorting Center was intentionally and massively overbuilt -- built for the future -- so it's a fair bet that substantial volume growth through ABE is in the offing, unless Amazon decides to use a different airport, as they did when they jettisoned SFO in favor of SCK. That said, I would assume that being the Big Kahuna in a place like ABE makes things a lot easier than having to contend with the inevitable brain damage that would be inflicted on them at a place like PHL or EWR, so it seems like the smaller, flexible airports would be the way to go, unless the NIMBYs eventually try to drive them out, as they did with DHL at (IIRC) Mather in Cali.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:40 pm

we sure hope so it seems that space on the cargo ramp between 6am-730am is the issue now so itd be nice for some late morning or early afternoon operations to start. and wjcandee thanks for all the info I hope this thread continues to be a hot topic, cjg225, look me up or have that person get in touch with me I have an idea of who it is and BI is my operating initials
Jet-A, coffee, headset.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:30 am

Anyone know of any plans for service to New England? New 1 million sq. ft. faciluty opening soon a few miles over the border of RI in MA. Hoping they consider PVD versus BOS since there is no room there for any additional cargo ops.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4208
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:45 am

That is the difference between a government entity and a private business. The managers at USPS do not have the same incentive to do things right that the managers at a private business do. The USPS is hopelessly obsolete and should be scrapped, but it is in the Constitution so it is hard to do. People working for the government just have a different mindset, and efficiency and good service just are not in their playbook.


And in addition the House and Senate refuse to permit the USPS to make business like decisions. There are small POs that should be closed. It is required to serve small isolated communities, and without subsidies (a good thing, and why it is in the constitution). Pension funding requirements are stiffer than private companies. And innumerable other arcane but inefficient rules imposed by congress.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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ssteve
Posts: 1394
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:12 am

No "business" would visit every mailbox in the nation every day except Sunday, do free mail forwarding, allow cut rates for charities, process passport applications, enable cheap Christmas cards... etc.

The best mindset for the USPS is, given that they are going to be forced to be the national post, how can they leverage that subsidized, mandated infrastructure to make money in peripheral ventures? It's not a given that they will bleed money in every venture.
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 826
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:45 pm

ssteve wrote:
No "business" would visit every mailbox in the nation every day except Sunday, do free mail forwarding, allow cut rates for charities, process passport applications, enable cheap Christmas cards... etc.

The best mindset for the USPS is, given that they are going to be forced to be the national post, how can they leverage that subsidized, mandated infrastructure to make money in peripheral ventures? It's not a given that they will bleed money in every venture.



What's this about cheaper Christmas cards? Is there some discount that I haven't been taking advantage of?
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 8941
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:42 pm

Don't know yet if Acey flew it, but the first Rockford flight started today. As Acey said, the route is on ATN, and it is ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT. While some of us were hoping to see it flown with ATN's newest aircraft, the 763 N307AZ, which has been painted in Prime Air colors similar to the Atlas Amazon One aircraft (apparently at the same painter in RME, Premier), it instead was flown with N763CX, a 762 which was most recently flying the SCK-DFW-ILN-SCK route. We also know that the ground handling (apparently all of it, including the terminal and ramp handling) is being done by Pinnacle Logistics, a Texas firm that primarily operates in Texas. (Much of the rest of the ground handling in the network has been contracted for by LGSTX, an ATSG company. Unclear whether LGSTX hired Pinnacle, or whether Amazon is now spreading the ground handling around.) In CLT, by the way, Amazon three months ago leased space for, according to building permits relating to trailer parking grading and other remodeling, "Amazon CLT Receive Center Phase I, Phase II and Phase III" eight minutes away from CLT at 10240 Old Dowd Road. Also interesting is that Amazon will be aggressively managing the ground-side processes and procedures for the air network (meaning what happens to the cargo after it gets off the plane and before it gets on the plane) and seeking to develop new ways of doing stuff, as it has in its amazing Postal Sorting Centers, as evidenced by this recent job posting: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/186644634. No question that they are already all-in, and seeking better ways to integrate the air capability with their logistics operation.

In any event, here's the most-recent status of the air network:

GTi3401 SEA-ILN
GTI3402 ILN-SEA

ABX3101 ILN-ONT
ABD3102 ONT-ILN
ABX3103 ILN-TPA
ABX3104 TPA-ILN
ABX3107 ABE-ONT
ABX3108 DFW-ABE
ABX3109 TPA-PHX
ABX3110 ONT-DFW
ABX 3111 ABE-TPA
ABX 3112 PHX-ABE
ABX 3113 ABE-CLT
ABX 3114 SCK-ABE
ABX 3115 CLT-SCK

ATN 3001 ABE-ILN
ATN 3002 ILN-ABE
ATN 3003 ILN-SCK
ATN 3004 SCK-ILN
ATN 3005 ILN-PHX
ATN 3006 PHX-ILN
ATN 3007 ILN-DFW
ATN 3008 DFW-ILN
ATN 3009 ILN-SCK
ATN 3010 SCK-DFW
ATN 3012 DFW-ILN
ATN 3013 CLT-ONT
ATN 3014 ONT-RFD
ATN 3016 RFD-CLT


(I'm currently speculating on the flight number for CLT-ONT. It should be 3013 or 3011.)
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:54 pm

Nice list, wjcandee. I flew the positing flight from ILN yesterday (3201) and start the RFD-CLT rotation tonight. I saw 307 out on the ramp yesterday but the FAA hasn't signed off on the manuals yet (as of yesterday) so it's sitting at ILN for the time being. I hope they get 763 off the route soon though, it's definitely not my favorite airplane in our fleet.

You are correct about the flight number, CLT-ONT is ATN3013. I had to laugh though yesterday, when I checked on with SoCal I had to repeat our call sign and flight number three or four times because nobody knew who "Air Transport" was. Guess we took them by surprise. :D
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 8941
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:13 pm

And the carrier totals are presently 6 aircraft from ATI, 5 from ABX, and 1 from Atlas. So now 11 ATSG aircraft committed to Amazon. I notice that ABX is regularly covering at least one ATI flight, which I assume is because of aircraft non-availability at ATI. Presumably, that will change when ATSG's first Prime Air painted 767-300 finally goes into revenue service at ATI.
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