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SEPilot
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:13 am

gregn21 wrote:
How about some A310's or MD10's if they wanna be cheap? FedEx will gladly give them some for a great price.

I think Amazon is following the WN policy of sticking to one plane type. No matter how cheap you get other metal the support adds a lot of cost. When buying used aircraft the purchase price is a small part of the overall cost. I think you will see Amazon sticking to 767s. It makes sense; it is a type being phased out of a lot of fleets, and yet can still be bought new. It is just about the only airliner in that position, except for the 747. But if you buy a new 747 it is not the same as the one you buy used; the 767 is. And with the tanker contract and its current popularity as a freighter, I think the 767 will still be produced for quite a while. I would say Amazon made a good choice.
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mcoatc
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:38 am

Yeah but you now have enough frames to cover the 8 flights with one down, and this flight took off long after the regular dfw flight had flown to dfw... you are usually correct, and probably are about this, but this one just seemed odd.



It continued on to Stockton. That's a movement I've never seen out of here before, but you'd certainly know more than me. Are they essentially using ABX as supplemental lift for Peak?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:30 am

Hard to tell yet what's up. But this could be a new revenue rotation, perhaps iln-dfw-sck-(rfd)-iln. But on ABX, that might implicate the day-night transition stuff so we'll just have to see how it goes. Good to see more flights for Amazon. Too bad ati didn't have more a/c available to it, as they have the pilots and pilot-hours available.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:37 am

SEPilot wrote:
gregn21 wrote:
How about some A310's or MD10's if they wanna be cheap? FedEx will gladly give them some for a great price.

I think Amazon is following the WN policy of sticking to one plane type. No matter how cheap you get other metal the support adds a lot of cost. When buying used aircraft the purchase price is a small part of the overall cost. I think you will see Amazon sticking to 767s. It makes sense; it is a type being phased out of a lot of fleets, and yet can still be bought new. It is just about the only airliner in that position, except for the 747. But if you buy a new 747 it is not the same as the one you buy used; the 767 is. And with the tanker contract and its current popularity as a freighter, I think the 767 will still be produced for quite a while. I would say Amazon made a good choice.


There's also that little sticking point that FX hasn't sold their freighters to competitors for about 2 decades.
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:53 am

I'm a bit out of the loop as I've been over at Yokota for almost two weeks, so I was just assuming it was coverage for 769. I don't know for certain, though we should find out more tomorrow morning; the Monday morning meetings usually address things like this.
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FX1816
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:25 am

Acey559 wrote:
I'm a bit out of the loop as I've been over at Yokota for almost two weeks, so I was just assuming it was coverage for 769. I don't know for certain, though we should find out more tomorrow morning; the Monday morning meetings usually address things like this.


N769AX showed up at ONT this afternoon as ATN3023 from ILN. I was surprised that it was still in full DHL colors.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:57 am

FX1816 wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
I'm a bit out of the loop as I've been over at Yokota for almost two weeks, so I was just assuming it was coverage for 769. I don't know for certain, though we should find out more tomorrow morning; the Monday morning meetings usually address things like this.


N769AX showed up at ONT this afternoon as ATN3023 from ILN. I was surprised that it was still in full DHL colors.


769 was originally supposed to just fly LAX-SEA-PDX for DHL, but then things got shaken up and ABX took over that route and 769 came back to ILN as a spare. 769 will be headed back to ABX soon though.
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kitplane01
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:17 am

SEPilot wrote:
gregn21 wrote:
How about some A310's or MD10's if they wanna be cheap? FedEx will gladly give them some for a great price.

I think Amazon is following the WN policy of sticking to one plane type. No matter how cheap you get other metal the support adds a lot of cost.


Why would this be? They are not like Southwest, they contract out the flying and the maintenance. It would seem that adding a new type would (for Amazon) just mean a new set of contracts, with who ever can economically fly the new type.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:29 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Why would this be? They are not like Southwest, they contract out the flying and the maintenance. It would seem that adding a new type would (for Amazon) just mean a new set of contracts, with who ever can economically fly the new type.

Fuel economy is not the only reason FX is parking MD-10s and A310-200s. They are old, and they are maintenance hogs. Would Amazon really be interested in picking up worn down 45 year old planes? I doubt it. Dispatch reliability is quite poor on those frames and the effects would be even more pronounced in a network that doesn't have a dozen spares parked around the country.

To add to that, the A310s and many of the parked MD-10s are not configured to take the pallet size that Amazon is using. These planes would have to go through heavy check AND main deck reconfiguring which seems cost-prohibitive.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:01 pm

HPRamper wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Why would this be? They are not like Southwest, they contract out the flying and the maintenance. It would seem that adding a new type would (for Amazon) just mean a new set of contracts, with who ever can economically fly the new type.

Fuel economy is not the only reason FX is parking MD-10s and A310-200s. They are old, and they are maintenance hogs. Would Amazon really be interested in picking up worn down 45 year old planes? I doubt it. Dispatch reliability is quite poor on those frames and the effects would be even more pronounced in a network that doesn't have a dozen spares parked around the country.

To add to that, the A310s and many of the parked MD-10s are not configured to take the pallet size that Amazon is using. These planes would have to go through heavy check AND main deck reconfiguring which seems cost-prohibitive.


I don't think they would need to do deck reconfiguring. As the A300 and MD-10 have a larger cross section than the 767, one could just build all pallets for 767 profile and go. There would be a lot of unused space though.

The former FX frames are not an option anyways. The A310s are being used as a spares source for the A300 fleet (save the 8 A313s now flying). The MD-10 is being used by only 2 other operators, with a combined fleet size of 3 (Omega and KFS). And with both those options, finding engines for these aircraft once FX plans to part with them will be tough, especially for the MD-10-10.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:20 pm

And remember that Amazon was looking initially at new frames, but decided to go used in significant part because of the ability to get up and running more quickly. The 767 line is going to be open for a while.
 
FX1816
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:18 pm

Well just had ABX3391 show up ILN-ONT this morning and parked at the old terminal with the Amazon operation. ABX is out of the penalty box now?
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:20 pm

FX1816 wrote:
Well just had ABX3391 show up ILN-ONT this morning and parked at the old terminal with the Amazon operation. ABX is out of the penalty box now?


Amazon is going to reinstate ABX in order to bring the network up to its pre-strike volume. I don't know whether ABX will simply pick up the flights that ATI is not now covering, or if they will reshuffle the flight operators yet again. I think the former is probably the easiest thing to do. Presumably, ATI will cover the 1 Rotator through RFD that ABX did not want to fly because of some restrictions in its CBA. ATI will get the 763 that's currently on the ramp. Don't know when that will happen. It should end up with at least 5 of the 763s, rather than the originally planned 4. Maybe even more.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:27 pm

Chaos among vendors is exactly what Amazon wants. They will use their airline to create chaos and create the market conditions they want. In this way, they can get their preferred pricing everywhere.

Also, they can employ vendors against their OWN pilots and employees when convenient.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:46 pm

Flighty wrote:
Chaos among vendors is exactly what Amazon wants. They will use their airline to create chaos and create the market conditions they want. In this way, they can get their preferred pricing everywhere.
Also, they can employ vendors against their OWN pilots and employees when convenient.
I

I think that that is awfully-cynical, and I disagree. They don't have time for the kind of petty, mean-spirited nonsense that permeates the militant among the pilot groups. They just want their packages delivered reliably.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:49 pm

Okay, so here's the deal.

From ILN, ABX takes back the flights it had before. ATI keeps 5 of the 7 ILN routes it was just flying.

ABX does ILN to: ONT, TPA
ATI does ILN to: ABE, SCK, SEA, DFW, PHX

This in the daily bank of ILN flights.

So presumably ATI gets 3 other flights that bypass ILN. It is already flying one with a 763, so two others, perhaps to include that RFD flight that ABX didn't want, or a modified version of it because right now that requires two aircraft.

ABX will have some bypass routes and perhaps some non-banked ILN routes, presumably including the second daily ILN-ONT.

We will see what the network looks like as of tomorrow.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:59 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Okay, so here's the deal.

From ILN, ABX takes back the flights it had before. ATI keeps 5 of the 7 ILN routes it was just flying.

ABX does ILN to: ONT, TPA
ATI does ILN to: ABE, SCK, SEA, DFW, PHX

This in the daily bank of ILN flights.

So presumably ATI gets 3 other flights that bypass ILN. It is already flying one with a 763, so two others, perhaps to include that RFD flight that ABX didn't want, or a modified version of it because right now that requires two aircraft.

ABX will have some bypass routes and perhaps some non-banked ILN routes, presumably including the second daily ILN-ONT.

We will see what the network looks like as of tomorrow.


I was just going to say it looks like ABX is back in the air for Amazon. Thank you for the details.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:52 pm

HPRamper wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Why would this be? They are not like Southwest, they contract out the flying and the maintenance. It would seem that adding a new type would (for Amazon) just mean a new set of contracts, with who ever can economically fly the new type.

Fuel economy is not the only reason FX is parking MD-10s and A310-200s. They are old, and they are maintenance hogs. Would Amazon really be interested in picking up worn down 45 year old planes? I doubt it. Dispatch reliability is quite poor on those frames and the effects would be even more pronounced in a network that doesn't have a dozen spares parked around the country.

To add to that, the A310s and many of the parked MD-10s are not configured to take the pallet size that Amazon is using. These planes would have to go through heavy check AND main deck reconfiguring which seems cost-prohibitive.



My question was not "Why would Amazon want really old airplanes?" My question was "Why would adding a new type be costly for Amazon, since they just contract out everything anyway?"
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:22 pm

It might be "costly" in the sense that reliability of the frames and operator might not be the best; i.e. time is money in their business.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:31 pm

Maybe we will see ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT again on ATI. I felt sorry for those folks in CLT who just had their operation shut down for weeks.
 
MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:53 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Maybe we will see ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT again on ATI. I felt sorry for those folks in CLT who just had their operation shut down for weeks.


You wont see CLT. Not sure what the issue is. And I agree, I hope it does come back for the sake of the people in CLT.

For the moment, ATI will be flying RFD-ILN-ONT-ILN and ABE-RFD-ONT-ABE. These were the routes that were giving ABX contractual issues. In turn, ABX is resuming the ONT-ILN-TPA route. This is an increase in monthly Amazon block hours of flying ATI.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:02 pm

So where are all the anti-labor types now? The union struck, got the issues fixed they wanted fixed and now everything continues, just like its supposed to.
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FX1816
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:09 am

So ABX3126 departed ONT tonight to RFD. Where it goes beyond that I don't know but it is pretty nice to see 4 airplanes back at the old terminal again, 2 ABX, 1 ATI and 1 GTI.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
So where are all the anti-labor types now? The union struck, got the issues fixed they wanted fixed and now everything continues, just like its supposed to.


Just trying to start an argument?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:58 am

FX1816 wrote:
So ABX3126 departed ONT tonight to RFD. Where it goes beyond that I don't know but it is pretty nice to see 4 airplanes back at the old terminal again, 2 ABX, 1 ATI and 1 GTI.



Off to CLT from RFD as ABX3128. So, ONT-RFD-CLT-?

So, good news, CLT is indeed back. Just on ABX instead of ATI.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:17 pm

Glad to see the operation back up and running! It still fascinates me that the 767s coming onboard have another 20+ years of service ahead of them.
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:02 pm

wjcandee wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
So ABX3126 departed ONT tonight to RFD. Where it goes beyond that I don't know but it is pretty nice to see 4 airplanes back at the old terminal again, 2 ABX, 1 ATI and 1 GTI.



Off to CLT from RFD as ABX3128. So, ONT-RFD-CLT-?

So, good news, CLT is indeed back. Just on ABX instead of ATI.


Also good: the ABX pilots get to have a meet and greet with all the people in CLT that they put out of work.
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ILNFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:12 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
So where are all the anti-labor types now? The union struck, got the issues fixed they wanted fixed and now everything continues, just like its supposed to.


If you call getting the company shut down for multiple days by the customer after a 20 hour strike and your case getting thrown out of court "getting issues fixed", you have an odd outlook.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:29 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
So where are all the anti-labor types now? The union struck, got the issues fixed they wanted fixed and now everything continues, just like its supposed to.


If you call getting the company shut down for multiple days by the customer after a 20 hour strike and your case getting thrown out of court "getting issues fixed", you have an odd outlook.


The case was not thrown out of court, if it was there would still be a strike. Couple that with the fact that management sat down with the union to fix the exact issues that caused the strike and are working on a way to fix it, I'd say it worked.

Regardless, had management just played by the rules, they would have been way better financially that what they ended up creating. Hopefully the guys at ATI get the hammer thrown at them for crossing the line. Atlas is next, they'll end up doing the same thing to Amazon, then what will Amazon do?
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ILNFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:15 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
So where are all the anti-labor types now? The union struck, got the issues fixed they wanted fixed and now everything continues, just like its supposed to.


If you call getting the company shut down for multiple days by the customer after a 20 hour strike and your case getting thrown out of court "getting issues fixed", you have an odd outlook.


The case was not thrown out of court, if it was there would still be a strike. Couple that with the fact that management sat down with the union to fix the exact issues that caused the strike and are working on a way to fix it, I'd say it worked.

Regardless, had management just played by the rules, they would have been way better financially that what they ended up creating. Hopefully the guys at ATI get the hammer thrown at them for crossing the line. Atlas is next, they'll end up doing the same thing to Amazon, then what will Amazon do?


Sitting where I do, I have a completely different view. To me, the action appeared unwarranted and unnecessary, and the court did in fact issue a temporary injunction against the pilots, and told them to get back in the air, so they lost in court. Your statement that there would still be a strike if the pilots lost doesn't hold water - they were under direct court order to return to the flight deck, so how would they strike without risking arrest for contempt of court? The appearance to the people in this community who needed and got jobs now had their lives put on hold by a bunch of whiners who make 10 times what the average person makes - the average people here are not likely to forget it quickly. People here also know there were pilots who had been hired and were scheduled to start work to help resolve the issue before the strike ever started. Now the pilots and union appear only to care about themselves, not the community nor the company they say they support. The pilots and the union have given themselves a great big black eye in the community. And as an FYI, Amazon itself pulled the flying from ABX after the pilots were told by the court to get back in the air. You are right about one thing.....if they strike at Atlas, Atlas will be next......next to get the flying pulled from them if they strike. Amazon doesn't play games; they will simply re-route the shipments as they did when they pulled ABX. I sincerely hope for all the families of Atlas that doesn't happen and everyone learns from this experience.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:18 am

So right now, we have:

ABX:
ONT-ILN-ONT
TPA-ILN-TPA
PHX-ABE-TPA-PHX
ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT

GTI:
ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT (763)

ATI:
ABE-ILN-ABE
SCK-ILN-SCK
PHX-ILN-PHX
DFW-ILN-DFW
SEA-ILN-SEA (763)
ABE-RFD-ONT-ABE (763)
ILN-DFW-SCK-RFD-ILN
ONT-ILN-ONT

ATI is maxed out on aircraft with the above schedule. On ABX, there may be more, and I will post when I see them. So, 4 routes now for ABX compared to twice that previously. That's where the growth, if any, will be in the next few days of Peak.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:34 am

wjcandee wrote:
So right now, we have:

ABX:
ONT-ILN-ONT
TPA-ILN-TPA
PHX-ABE-TPA-PHX
ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT

GTI:
ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT (763)

ATI:
ABE-ILN-ABE
SCK-ILN-SCK
PHX-ILN-PHX
DFW-ILN-DFW
SEA-ILN-SEA (763)
ABE-RFD-ONT-ABE (763)
ILN-DFW-SCK-RFD-ILN
ONT-ILN-ONT

ATI is maxed out on aircraft with the above schedule. On ABX, there may be more, and I will post when I see them. So, 4 routes now for ABX compared to twice that previously. That's where the growth, if any, will be in the next few days of Peak.

I agree if there is an increase this peak it will be at ABX. But I suspect future growth will be elsewhere.

Lightsaber
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:16 am

And there has been over the last day what appears to be, on ABX, an ILN-DFW-SCK-DFW-ILN route. Not sure if it's just doing cleanup or it's here to stay.

One of our contributors mentioned that FedEx is just maxed-out in DFW, so an extra DFW flight (and a lot more "Prime Road" truck lanes) will be particularly-useful to Amazon there.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:26 pm

wjcandee wrote:
And there has been over the last day what appears to be, on ABX, an ILN-DFW-SCK-DFW-ILN route. Not sure if it's just doing cleanup or it's here to stay.

One of our contributors mentioned that FedEx is just maxed-out in DFW, so an extra DFW flight (and a lot more "Prime Road" truck lanes) will be particularly-useful to Amazon there.


I think this is gonna be SCK-DFW-ILN-SCK. ABX 3122/3124/3123. So now 5 routes for ABX.

REVISED ROUTES:

ABX:
ONT-ILN-ONT
TPA-ILN-TPA
PHX-ABE-TPA-PHX
ONT-RFD-CLT-ONT
SCK-DFW-ILN-SCK

GTI:
ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT (763)

ATI:
ABE-ILN-ABE
SCK-ILN-SCK
PHX-ILN-PHX
DFW-ILN-DFW
SEA-ILN-SEA (763)
ABE-RFD-ONT-ABE (763)
ILN-DFW-SCK-RFD-ILN
ONT-ILN-ONT
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
And remember that Amazon was looking initially at new frames, but decided to go used in significant part because of the ability to get up and running more quickly. The 767 line is going to be open for a while.

Add to that the fact that of all widebody types that are still being manufactured, the 767 is probably the one that is most readily available used and ready to fly.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:49 pm

Hilarious: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ot-deliver

Guess the 1224 pilots want all the Amazon flying to go to other carriers.
 
FX1816
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:13 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Hilarious: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ot-deliver

Guess the 1224 pilots want all the Amazon flying to go to other carriers.


Really trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg? These guys are idiots, the only people they are going to screw are themselves and the public that will have NO interest in their sob stories of making nearly 10 times more than the average working man/woman.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:36 pm

FX1816 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Hilarious: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ot-deliver

Guess the 1224 pilots want all the Amazon flying to go to other carriers.


Really trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg? These guys are idiots, the only people they are going to screw are themselves and the public that will have NO interest in their sob stories of making nearly 10 times more than the average working man/woman.


I hope the company delivers the pilots their termination notices via Amazon Prime.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:02 am

Awful tactic. Keep the dirty laundry in the house. They are only hurting themselves and making themselves look bad in the process.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:10 am

Though, wouldn't be the first time Amazon was accused of such working practices.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:02 am

smokeybandit wrote:
Though, wouldn't be the first time Amazon was accused of such working practices.


Amazon doesn't employ these guys. All it does is contract for the airlines to fly routes. Either the airlines can staff the jets or they can't.

Atlas, whose pilot was quoted as complaining about how tired he is, flies exactly ONE aircraft for Amazon. One. Un. Uno. Yi. Ichi.
Out of a current fleet of approximately 57 aircraft. So it's stupid already.

The ABX Air situation is a little different, and it's complicated. The ABX pilots are an extremely-competent, high-airmanship, very-proud group with a long history of operational excellence and exceptional stick-and-rudder flying skills. They now fly 5 aircraft for Amazon, and 25 or so for DHL and a couple of small customers. Their pilots are operating under a concessionary contract that gives them a moderate minimum monthly paycheck. From the affidavits in the recent legal action: ABX pilots get paid a minimum of 60-something hours of flying a month, but the most ABX ever constructs in its "lines" for bid is 40-something. In order for the pilots to have the chance to make more than the minimum, a certain amount of flying was always put in "open time", for pilots to pick up for extra pay. Even picking up open time, most pilots never even got to the minimum hours they were paid for in their contract, although all open time hours were in addition to the minimum and paid at a premium rate. Open time is desirable, and is bid in seniority order. In years past, virtually all the open time was picked up by pilots voluntarily for extra pay. The company said that many pilots wanted there to be open time so the ones that wanted to could make more money if they wanted to, and indeed many pilots publicly have bragged about how much money they were making. Since almost all the open time was voluntarily bid, if someone was going to pick up extra hours, he could plan so that he did not miss a kid's play or soccer game or birthday, he would be able to plan around it. And since the pilots didn't do more than about 60-ish hours a month of flying, even with open time, they were well under the FAA maximum of 100 hours. At some point, apparently to put pressure on the company for something, whether it be to finalize a CBA, raise their pay scale, shut down the parent company's other carrier (the claims are disputed), the pilots started to stop bidding for open flying. This invoked a provision of the CBA which allowed the company to assign open flying involuntarily, in return for extremely-high rates of pay and an extra day off for each assignment. Eventually, apparently as a collective action, the pilots, to a man, stopped biding for open time, apparently to force the company to pay everyone the "emergency" pay rate plus extra days off. They knew the higher pay rates would hurt, and the accumulated vacation days would make scheduling challenging. This also impinged on the folks who traditionally did NOT bid open time, and made it impossible for those pilots also to schedule around things, leading to a lot of complaints. But the zeroing-out of open time flying by the pilot group has the hallmarks of a voluntary, collective action, and its predictable result was that people who didn't want to fly still had to. Meanwhile, pilots were bragging about making north of $350,000 per year. The company responded by hiring aggressively, and it has had no difficulty finding qualified pilots, who are going through training classes and getting out on the line. It doesn't take that many pilots to add 5 or 6 planes to the mix. They were averaging about 10 pilots per plane, as a rough number, so 4 classes of a dozen guys each and the "problem" is fixed. The sole basis of the union's strike was over how far in advance they could schedule their extra day off, and by what method; the other 2 similarly-seemingly-resolvable issues were basically already resolved, the Court found. The union's PR was all about being overworked and missing kids' soccer games and such, but the actual legal grievance was the D6 days. So that's the playing field.

In sum, this appears to be about leverage and strategy that's much bigger-picture stuff than what the union is saying publicly. It is employing very-aggressive, really last-ditch, self-harming strategies to accomplish whatever it is that it is trying to accomplish. I hope that whatever they hope to accomplish with these tactics is worth it in the end.
 
FX1816
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:02 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:01 pm

wjcandee wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Though, wouldn't be the first time Amazon was accused of such working practices.


Amazon doesn't employ these guys. All it does is contract for the airlines to fly routes. Either the airlines can staff the jets or they can't.

Atlas, whose pilot was quoted as complaining about how tired he is, flies exactly ONE aircraft for Amazon. One. Un. Uno. Yi. Ichi.
Out of a current fleet of approximately 57 aircraft. So it's stupid already.

The ABX Air situation is a little different, and it's complicated. The ABX pilots are an extremely-competent, high-airmanship, very-proud group with a long history of operational excellence and exceptional stick-and-rudder flying skills. They now fly 5 aircraft for Amazon, and 25 or so for DHL and a couple of small customers. Their pilots are operating under a concessionary contract that gives them a moderate minimum monthly paycheck. From the affidavits in the recent legal action: ABX pilots get paid a minimum of 60-something hours of flying a month, but the most ABX ever constructs in its "lines" for bid is 40-something. In order for the pilots to have the chance to make more than the minimum, a certain amount of flying was always put in "open time", for pilots to pick up for extra pay. Even picking up open time, most pilots never even got to the minimum hours they were paid for in their contract, although all open time hours were in addition to the minimum and paid at a premium rate. Open time is desirable, and is bid in seniority order. In years past, virtually all the open time was picked up by pilots voluntarily for extra pay. The company said that many pilots wanted there to be open time so the ones that wanted to could make more money if they wanted to, and indeed many pilots publicly have bragged about how much money they were making. Since almost all the open time was voluntarily bid, if someone was going to pick up extra hours, he could plan so that he did not miss a kid's play or soccer game or birthday, he would be able to plan around it. And since the pilots didn't do more than about 60-ish hours a month of flying, even with open time, they were well under the FAA maximum of 100 hours. At some point, apparently to put pressure on the company for something, whether it be to finalize a CBA, raise their pay scale, shut down the parent company's other carrier (the claims are disputed), the pilots started to stop bidding for open flying. This invoked a provision of the CBA which allowed the company to assign open flying involuntarily, in return for extremely-high rates of pay and an extra day off for each assignment. Eventually, apparently as a collective action, the pilots, to a man, stopped biding for open time, apparently to force the company to pay everyone the "emergency" pay rate plus extra days off. They knew the higher pay rates would hurt, and the accumulated vacation days would make scheduling challenging. This also impinged on the folks who traditionally did NOT bid open time, and made it impossible for those pilots also to schedule around things, leading to a lot of complaints. But the zeroing-out of open time flying by the pilot group has the hallmarks of a voluntary, collective action, and its predictable result was that people who didn't want to fly still had to. Meanwhile, pilots were bragging about making north of $350,000 per year. The company responded by hiring aggressively, and it has had no difficulty finding qualified pilots, who are going through training classes and getting out on the line. It doesn't take that many pilots to add 5 or 6 planes to the mix. They were averaging about 10 pilots per plane, as a rough number, so 4 classes of a dozen guys each and the "problem" is fixed. The sole basis of the union's strike was over how far in advance they could schedule their extra day off, and by what method; the other 2 similarly-seemingly-resolvable issues were basically already resolved, the Court found. The union's PR was all about being overworked and missing kids' soccer games and such, but the actual legal grievance was the D6 days. So that's the playing field.

In sum, this appears to be about leverage and strategy that's much bigger-picture stuff than what the union is saying publicly. It is employing very-aggressive, really last-ditch, self-harming strategies to accomplish whatever it is that it is trying to accomplish. I hope that whatever they hope to accomplish with these tactics is worth it in the end.


You know I have a real problem with these guys crying about being overworked. Right now we are in a pretty big employee shortage in the FAA and at ONT tower, where these whiners fly in to a lot, we are extremely short. Since the beginning of 2016 we have been short to the point of working 6 day work weeks EVERY WEEK. Since May I can count on one hand how many full, 2 day weekends I've had. I don't complain because I love the job and I need to pay the bills. To the guy from Atlas complaining about being tired, GO POUND SAND, no one cares that you don't know how to manage your sleep while your company has ONE freakin Amazon flight.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 7667
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:36 am

N313AZ (3rd CAM Amazon 763) did a test flight today ILN to ILN, as ATN313. We will see how fast it gets into service. We expected that it might go to ATI, and it apparently has.

311 had an issue yesterday (failed anti-skid, I think), so they brought 307 off the ONT-ABE-RFD-ONT rotation to cover a (very late) flight ILN-SEA. 307 stayed on SEA today, and 311 finally got it together and was sent to ABE at noon today to replace it.

ATI has had some mech issues on the 762s in the past couple of days, which is unfortunate. They had been running pretty-smoothly after getting a little TLC, but they obviously need more if they're going to be reliable enough to use in 7-day-a-week service. One of the 762s coming on soonish is going through heavy maint now, so hopefully it will be able to operate at a higher level of reliability than the others.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:51 am

Not sure if this is the one but the 763 from ILN to ABE today (ATN3002) had some smoke from mains after touchdown. Pilots were notified and no impact to atc, just an observation from tower cab passed on.
Jet-A, coffee, headset.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 7667
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:20 am

bravoindia wrote:
Not sure if this is the one but the 763 from ILN to ABE today (ATN3002) had some smoke from mains after touchdown. Pilots were notified and no impact to atc, just an observation from tower cab passed on.


Yeah, that was 311. And she's off to RFD as of an hour ago (00:10EST), so I guess they were able to clear up whatever it was (or defer it, depending on the RFD weather).
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 7667
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:49 am

So...don't look now, but...

ATN put 313 in the air today on its first revenue run: ILN-SEA. 307 is sitting in ILN after coming in this morning from SEA. We will see whether it picks up a regular route tomorrow. Right now, the 763s are on ABE-RFD-ONT-ABE and ILN-SEA. Given that we're in the last four days of peak, I'm sure the demand is there.

That said, I noticed in oday's WSJ that FedEx made significant expenditures this year on the ground side to ready that for Peak, and it seems to be working very-reliably. FedEx overall has seen a few customers come in with volume less than expected, but most of the rest seem to be on-target. This means that there is a little room left in the network, and they might step up and take a little more high-priced, last minute business over the next few days. We will see...
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:53 am

307 is currently showing green though the status shows the mechs working on a couple DMIs. Looks like it should be ready for tomorrow.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
User avatar
LeCoqFrancais
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:03 pm

Will Amazon Prime Air be able to deliver all the Christmas gifts on time?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:13 pm

Union pilots who fly products for Amazon.com Inc. are taking concerns about pay, working conditions and staffing shortages directly to online shoppers with a digital marketing blitz that suggests the internet retailer may struggle to deliver holiday gifts on time.
The union is running advertisements on Facebook and Google on Friday, targeting Amazon customers. If clicked on, the ads send people to the website canamazondeliver.com, paid for by the Airline Professionals Association, Teamsters Local 1224.

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ot-deliver
--
Santa might still need FedEx and UPS after all...
Sébastien C. Tourillon
 
User avatar
AC_B777
Posts: 761
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 5:15 am

Re: Will Amazon Prime Air be able to deliver all the Christmas gifts on time?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:23 pm

Isn't that Santa's job?? lol :duck:
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Will Amazon Prime Air be able to deliver all the Christmas gifts on time?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:27 pm

They have never stopped using FedEx and UPS. ATI, ABX and Atlas are also used. More pilot union drivel after they got their butts kicked in court.
 
User avatar
LeCoqFrancais
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:03 pm

Re: Will Amazon Prime Air be able to deliver all the Christmas gifts on time?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:47 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
They have never stopped using FedEx and UPS. ATI, ABX and Atlas are also used. More pilot union drivel after they got their butts kicked in court.

I'm pretty sure all of the Amazon Prime Air planes are operated by Atlas Air actually.
Sébastien C. Tourillon

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