Any concerns that that impending jumpseat war between ATI and ABX will impact the Amazon system as crews will have a hard time getting to/from work.

bravoindia wrote:

Any chance that N1997A is in for mx in Miami? Does 5Y have their equipment worked on there?

They have some facilities there. A lot of 5Y work is done at RME, and 1997a spent a day there before they sent 1049a there for paint. But never say never. Could also be that Amazon isn't ready for another 5Y plane, or 5Y can't crew it yet, or Amazon isn't ready for another Local 1224 aircraft, although that seems less likely.

Could be. I will do some research on that. The "1997" is easy: it's the year that Amazon went public and Bezos sent his first shareholder letter entitled "It's all about the long-term". It's actually something that you can look back on as a manifesto: the company has been run that way from the beginning. They still follow the principles in that letter.

wjcandee wrote:

Could be. I will do some research on that. The "1997" is easy: it's the year that Amazon went public and Bezos sent his first shareholder letter entitled "It's all about the long-term". It's actually something that you can look back on as a manifesto: the company has been run that way from the beginning. They still follow the principles in that letter.

It is also a "prime" number. All the N registered tails for Amazon will be prime numbers.

All the tails owned by CAM and leased to Amazon will end in AZ. The tails leased from Titan to Amazon will end in A.

Given that most of the future registrations are already established, I'm scratching my head as to why there is no 317. Maybe that one will be a surprise. The number is reserved by CAM but unassigned.

N359AZ is scheduled for delivery ex TLV to KCVG on 1/25 1100UTC

wjcandee wrote:

Given that most of the future registrations are already established, I'm scratching my head as to why there is no 317. Maybe that one will be a surprise. The number is reserved by CAM but unassigned.

I'm just guessing, but maybe it's because 317CM is being operated by ABX and they're trying to circumvent future confusion with tail numbers?

MEMbrain wrote:

Any concerns that that impending jumpseat war between ATI and ABX will impact the Amazon system as crews will have a hard time getting to/from work.

There is no "impending jumpseat war" between ABX and ATI.

You were suspended then banned from APC for being bombastic and a grenade thrower. (Although we believe you're back under other name, a tactic you have used in the past).

Please stop

Is there currently a DEN flight? Amazon just announced a new fulfillment center on the NE part of town, not too far (E-470) from the airport.

Maybe they will have flights to MSP soon, Amazon wants to build a fulfillment center in the east metro that would rival its massive Shakopee facility that opened last year. The one in Shakopee employs aprox. 1,000 people. Another center here in MSP would employ another 1,000 or so. I understand Amazon is building their air cargo fleet slowly but one can hope for MSP flights one day.

Are there any fulfillment centers planned near the northern gulf coast but not in Florida?

LightningZ71 wrote:

Are there any fulfillment centers planned near the northern gulf coast but not in Florida?

I don't know, I didn't know one was coming here until I heard on the radio that Amazon was hiring. The new center was announced in the business paper here in MSP today.

yochai wrote:

N359AZ is scheduled for delivery ex TLV to KCVG on 1/25 1100UTC

Thanks for that heads-up!

This is formerly 355AA. Six months and a week to do the conversion plus heavy maintenance. Once it is processed at CVG, I assume that it will go to one of the Dean Baldwin shops for paint. That should take another two weeks. So early February sounds like a good date for her to be expected to go into service.

There is a photo of her from two days ago posted on a website that has jet photos. She looks great with the new cargo door, but she definitely needs paint.

The next two ATI planes are scheduled to go into service around March 1 and April 1 respectively. There are still two ex-AA aircraft on the ramp at ILN right now; N368AA and N395CM (I think, can't remember exactly).

As for new stations, I mentioned it a bit ago in this thread that MSP, DEN, BOS and a Florida airport are being rumored as the next Amazon stations. No idea when they'll be opened and if they're even serious rumors, but that's the word on the street.

Acey559 wrote:

The next two ATI planes are scheduled to go into service around March 1 and April 1 respectively. There are still two ex-AA aircraft on the ramp at ILN right now; N368AA and N395CM (I think, can't remember exactly).

As for new stations, I mentioned it a bit ago in this thread that MSP, DEN, BOS and a Florida airport are being rumored as the next Amazon stations. No idea when they'll be opened and if they're even serious rumors, but that's the word on the street.

Thanks as always for the knowledgeable info!

ATI has been beating the expected dates on the earlier aircraft, so I wouldn't be surprised to see N359AZ in service a week or two before March 1 if Amazon wants it running and ATI can do promptly whatever paperwork remains. It hasn't left TLV for CVG yet; looks like it is still doing test flights. But the conversion is done and I guess it will be on the way home soon...

395CM isn't one of the 8 767-300s that were currently shown as destined for Amazon; it's one of the four CAM aircraft that in theory are going to other customers but which could of course be the subject of a new or different deal in the future, and I indeed thought it was still at ILN. Maybe it will head over to TLV now that 359AZ is basically on its way back from conversion.

368AA is a new one. 368AA seems still to be owned by AA, having been removed from service and stored in November; it doesn't seem to be one of the group that Jetran bought from AA (some of which it resold to CAM). It was shown as still being at BFM, but there was a rumor that it was sold to a new customer, so maybe it made its way to ILN after that. In any event...cool. Looks like at least one more conversion in the pipeline. (There was a 386AA, which is going to Amazon and spent some time at ILN, but that was renumbered as 337AZ and flown to TLV on December 8-9 under its new reg.)

And thanks for the updates on the rumours of new stations!

N359AZ at TLV from JetPhotos.net as of 1/20/2017: http://www.jetphotos.net/photo/8488466

Looks like they are still doing final tests on 359AZ before it leaves TLV. I wonder if they are looking at the flap-related equipment on 359AZ to see if anything needs to be upgraded, adjusted, or maintained (in light of the experience with the last conversion) before it heads for CVG.

What is the total fleet size now?

wjcandee wrote:

N359AZ at TLV from JetPhotos.net as of 1/20/2017:

Also on A.net:

airkas1 wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

N359AZ at TLV from JetPhotos.net as of 1/20/2017:

Also on A.net:

Oh, sorry. I did a search by registration and came up with nada. I like Yochai's photo better, actually!

No worries! I added it this morning, so maybe before you made your post.

So 359az is indeed on its way and should be at CVG a bit before 9pm EST tonight.

How come DHL liveried 762s are used for the Amazon system? What does DHL think of that? Wait till ATSG or 5Y get short of a/c and they have to use an Amazon plane for the DHL system.

MEMbrain wrote:

How come DHL liveried 762s are used for the Amazon system? What does DHL think of that? Wait till ATSG or 5Y get short of a/c and they have to use an Amazon plane for the DHL system.

I'm not sure about cargo, but I know it happens for regionals sometimes. But also this is cargo not passenger, so the public awareness will be much lower: ie someone driving by the airport one day may notice a yellow plane when theres always been a white and blue one, but most will stop wondering about it there. I wouldn't think that DHL or Amazon would care that much if it only happened once in a fly while, but I'm pretty sure it will be preventable soon since all the frames flying for Amazon are being repainted plus ATSG is going to have one rescue aircraft on the ground.

And what frame is in the DHL livery? Didn't know there was one

nikeson13 wrote:

MEMbrain wrote:

How come DHL liveried 762s are used for the Amazon system? What does DHL think of that? Wait till ATSG or 5Y get short of a/c and they have to use an Amazon plane for the DHL system.

I'm not sure about cargo, but I know it happens for regionals sometimes. But also this is cargo not passenger, so the public awareness will be much lower: ie someone driving by the airport one day may notice a yellow plane when theres always been a white and blue one, but most will stop wondering about it there. I wouldn't think that DHL or Amazon would care that much if it only happened once in a fly while, but I'm pretty sure it will be preventable soon since all the frames flying for Amazon are being repainted plus ATSG is going to have one rescue aircraft on the ground.

And what frame is in the DHL livery? Didn't know there was one

N769AX is a DHL painted aircraft and has been flying for Amazon pretty much since it was transferred back to ABX from ATI.

We should be expecting another 767-300 in TLV on Tuesday, 1/31 from what I have heard...will post an update once I have more info on flight times/reg

Acey559 wrote:

nikeson13 wrote:

MEMbrain wrote:

How come DHL liveried 762s are used for the Amazon system? What does DHL think of that? Wait till ATSG or 5Y get short of a/c and they have to use an Amazon plane for the DHL system.

I'm not sure about cargo, but I know it happens for regionals sometimes. But also this is cargo not passenger, so the public awareness will be much lower: ie someone driving by the airport one day may notice a yellow plane when theres always been a white and blue one, but most will stop wondering about it there. I wouldn't think that DHL or Amazon would care that much if it only happened once in a fly while, but I'm pretty sure it will be preventable soon since all the frames flying for Amazon are being repainted plus ATSG is going to have one rescue aircraft on the ground.

And what frame is in the DHL livery? Didn't know there was one

N769AX is a DHL painted aircraft and has been flying for Amazon pretty much since it was transferred back to ABX from ATI.

I'm not even sure Amazon would care if it flew for them in the DHL livery for a long time. They're looking for lift, and its not worth it for them to not have the lift for a while to repaint it into Amazon Prime Air colors, or something generic.

DHL on the other hand probably doesn't care either. They're getting free advertising, and the benefit of the plane not being in a bone yard rusting away with their logo on the side.

My understanding is that the 767-200s that run for Amazon will be painted white, and some if not all of them will be renumbered to an AZ number. The 767 300s will be all painted in Amazon Prime livery.

yochai wrote:

We should be expecting another 767-300 in TLV on Tuesday, 1/31 from what I have heard...will post an update once I have more info on flight times/reg

Yeah. We were just talking about 395CM being on the ground at ILN waiting to be converted. I'm guessing that's the one that will go. It is not one that is designated for Amazon, however, at least at this point.

Last I saw (about a week and a half ago) 395 still didn't have engines on it. I know they can change an engine pretty quickly, but not sure how long it'll take them to completely install two engines, especially after it's been sitting engine-less outside for over a month.

Acey559 wrote:

Last I saw (about a week and a half ago) 395 still didn't have engines on it. I know they can change an engine pretty quickly, but not sure how long it'll take them to completely install two engines, especially after it's been sitting engine-less outside for over a month.

Then I guess it ain't gonna be 395. Did the AA one you saw have engines?

To review, the status of the 8 aircraft I know about that CAM will convert at IAI/Bedek is:

337AZ/386AA is in TLV since Dec 9
359AZ is at CVG, having finished conversion
370AA is in TLV since Dec 29
371AA/353AZ is in TLV since Nov 28
376CM is in TLV since July 22
385CM/331AZ is at TLV since August 31
395CM (formerly 378AN) is at ILN without engines
396AX/347AZ is at TLV since Oct 29

So I don't know what else they would send, unless it's that AA aircraft of indeterminate tail number (maybe 368AA) that Acey saw at ILN the other day. Or maybe there was an ex-Omni 767-300 that snuck into ILN without me counting it on the above list... Or something direct from where it's stored, which hasn't been the pattern for ATSG, although Atlas did that a couple of times.

All this is on Planespotters.net (although for what it's worth I was their source for a lot of this info, so blame me if it's wrong).

The information provided is once again top notch. Quite possibly the most fascinating posts on anet. To see these birds from different storied backgrounds come together, get modified and potentially form a substantial/standardized fleet is amazing.

Fantastic stuff. I know I go back to it but it would be nice to see either N371AA, N386AA, or N378AN in PRIME AIR scheme.

N359AZ will be heading to Dean Baldwin Painting at ROW this morning for its Prime Air livery. Normally, Dean Baldwin turns around a 767 in about 2 calendar weeks.

For those keeping track:
307AZ was painted at Premier in RME (where Atlas gets much of its maintenance and painting done; Premier painted N1997A and later painted N1049A).
311AZ was painted at the Dean Baldwin Painting shop at GYR.
313AZ was painted at the newest Dean Baldwin Painting shop at GUS.

768AX (a 767-200) was painted all-white at the Dean Baldwin Painting shop at GYR. It is/was to be renumbered N191AZ, but that does not appear to have happened. It also does not appear to have flown in a month.

These fleets need "pit crews" that make good utilization of the downtime between flights to keep these planes with good dispatch reliability.
something like the JAL culture is needed on these well worn birds.

I think ABX/ATI are going to need a couple of spares sitting in a couple of strategic spots when all is said and done.

There are two ABX 767's still flying in DHL colors, like Acey said one is N769AX but I didn't catch the tail number of the other. Both came in to ONT on Thursday as ABX3125 and ABX3101. They both arrived just before I left the tower.

FX1816 wrote:

There are two ABX 767's still flying in DHL colors, like Acey said one is N769AX but I didn't catch the tail number of the other. Both came in to ONT on Thursday as ABX3125 and ABX3101. They both arrived just before I left the tower.

Yep. Some of this arises from the fact that ABX isn't completely-scrupulous about using specific aircraft on the Amazon runs. We have a list of the ones that usually are used, but they'll substitute on a pretty-regular basis.

So, here's what we have right now.

The ABX aircraft used most-often on Amazon runs:
769ax DHL Livery
768ax All White Livery (recently repainted all-white, to be renumbered 191az)(out of service for 4+ weeks)
744ax ABX Air Livery
749ax ABX Air Livery
750ax ABX Air Livery
795ax ABX Air Livery

Other ABX aircraft seen regularly on Amazon runs:
793ax DHL Livery
773ax DHL Livery
774ax ABX Air Livery


Right now, ABX is assigned only 5 Amazon routes, so they have plenty of aircraft to cover their schedule. The extra aircraft also allow them to cover ATI flights when necessary, something that they do very well. At least half the days will have an ABX flight covering an ATI flight. This is a function of ATI having zero operational spare aircraft at the moment, and of a scope clause at ABX that prevents ABX from transferring to ATI any aircraft that ABX is using, without union permission. So although there are a few extra 767-200s on the ABX certificate at the moment, they can't just be moved over to ATI. It also probably wouldn't be a good thing to do anyway, when one is fighting a "single carrier" determination. It's a trivial thing, and the proper inquiry focuses primarily on different issues, but why borrow the trouble?

The easiest way to fix this is for CAM to send to ATI whatever lease returns they have, as they come available. And indeed there is an Amerijet lease return, N739AX, that has been in ILN for about 6 months. They have put it into heavy maintenance and it's a fair bet that it will go to ATI when that is completed. An unnecessary expenditure on an airframe that otherwise could just sit, but given Amazon's apparent antipathy towards ABX at the moment, that's the play. Presumably for the same reason, N255CM is going to stick around at ATI rather than be dry-leased to a foreign airline. If the foreign airline that was going to lease it needs an airframe, there's nothing to keep ATSG from having ABX return one 767-200 to CAM and for CAM to then dry-lease that airframe to the foreign airline. Again, an unnecessary dance, but one that follows the "letter of the contract".

Definitely sounds like more trouble than it's worth to swap tails from ABX to ATI. I have noticed N255CM still shows signs of the Cargo Jet colors, it has been running to ONT quite a bit lately.

739 is indeed coming to ATI. Still undergoing a C check and bridging but it'll be put into ATI service when it's signed off. There should be an update on that tail around the end of the month.

FX1816 wrote:

I have noticed N255CM still shows signs of the Cargo Jet colors, it has been running to ONT quite a bit lately.

Oh, yeah. They didn't strip it and repaint it white. Instead, they applied a coat of a slightly-different white just over the portions of the aircraft that carried the Cargojet livery. They did a pretty-exacting job of this, consistent with the old Airborne Express culture of never wasting a nickel. Accordingly, the contours of the Cargojet livery are there, but in a noticeably-different white than the rest of the aircraft. Also, we all know that if you're painting white over red or black, you're not going to get a perfect result without working at it. If it were a wall in my living room, I probably would have applied another coat (and not traced the previous livery).

Of course, given that the aircraft was originally expected not to stay at ATI for long, and instead to be leased to another carrier, it was probably assumed that the white-on-white would be temporary. OTOH, that customer's most recent livery has most of the action at the tail, and requires a clean white base for the minimal, thin billboard lettering on the rest of the plane, so a good job on the white in the first place wouldn't have hurt.

N395CM scheduled to arrive in TLV for freighter mods on 1/31 from ILN...ETD from ILN 2030UTC

yochai wrote:

N395CM scheduled to arrive in TLV for freighter mods on 1/31 from ILN...ETD from ILN 2030UTC

Great! Thank you for that information! I guess that they indeed were planning on reinstalling the engines and flying her over there.

With 395CM's trip over to TLV, CAM will have 7 767-300s at TLV, including 4 more for Amazon and 3 for other customers.

Some developments on the Atlas front today, but no clear direction yet.

The plan was for 1997A to fly back to ABE from MIA after sunrise, and swap itself into the ABE-ONT leg (GTI3405) of Atlas's sole current rote: ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT. 1049A, the newer of the two Atlas 767-300s, has been running that route for about the last 8 days. Perhaps (and just perhaps) 1049A would then be assigned to a brand-new route.

As happened the last time Atlas tried to do this about ten days ago, the aircraft that was supposed to come into ABE has been delayed by several hours, and thus will miss the opportunity to swap out today. The departure time has been moved several times; the latest is after 6pm. Last time, they just delayed the swap by 24 hours. We will see what happens this time.

Atlas's big ramp-up for Prime Air isn't really supposed to start until mid-2017, where they will be introducing about one aircraft a month. I know that a number of Atlas employees have come on the boards to say that this is not true, that they're rapidly-introducing aircraft right now, but this isn't true, nor is it possible. The donor aircraft for the first BCF conversion (N631GT, to be N1217A) didn't arrive in QPG until the end of November, so we aren't going to see that out of conversion until May, and therefore not in service until...basically June. N1093A is shown as being stored at PVG, but I think it may be at TLV since June. N1229A has been at TLV for conversion since November, so again we're talking mid-year for entry into service. There is one other stored aircraft that may also have snuck its way to TLV. Other candidate aircraft are still, I think, stored at places like LDE (the 3 ex-Nordwind ones), and yet others have yet to be identified. So except for maybe one more aircraft before May, I don't think we're going to see anything more from Atlas in the near term.

Thus, it is as-yet-unclear whether Amazon is going to put that Atlas aircraft on a new route or leave it as a spare until there are more aircraft in the mix. The latter seems unlikely, but we will see...

Yochai, if you can give us a heads-up as to what Atlas airframes are at TLV, and whether they have begun conversion, that would be spectacular! (Photos don't hurt, either.)

(FWIW, I have long been fascinated about the store/dismantle operation at Lourdes. It is exactly the opposite climate as our US Desert locations, and yet it's a popular spot for the same work. Also, an ugly/junky operation like plane dismantling seems incongruous with my impression of the place, but it goes to show that work gets done where work gets done.)

wjcandee wrote:

Some developments on the Atlas front today, but no clear direction yet.

The plan was for 1997A to fly back to ABE from MIA after sunrise, and swap itself into the ABE-ONT leg (GTI3405) of Atlas's sole current rote: ONT-DFW-ABE-ONT. 1049A, the newer of the two Atlas 767-300s, has been running that route for about the last 8 days. Perhaps (and just perhaps) 1049A would then be assigned to a brand-new route.

As happened the last time Atlas tried to do this about ten days ago, the aircraft that was supposed to come into ABE has been delayed by several hours, and thus will miss the opportunity to swap out today. The departure time has been moved several times; the latest is after 6pm. Last time, they just delayed the swap by 24 hours. We will see what happens this time.

Atlas's big ramp-up for Prime Air isn't really supposed to start until mid-2017, where they will be introducing about one aircraft a month. I know that a number of Atlas employees have come on the boards to say that this is not true, that they're rapidly-introducing aircraft right now, but this isn't true, nor is it possible. The donor aircraft for the first BCF conversion (N631GT, to be N1217A) didn't arrive in QPG until the end of November, so we aren't going to see that out of conversion until May, and therefore not in service until...basically June. N1093A is shown as being stored at PVG, but I think it may be at TLV since June. N1229A has been at TLV for conversion since November, so again we're talking mid-year for entry into service. There is one other stored aircraft that may also have snuck its way to TLV. Other candidate aircraft are still, I think, stored at places like LDE (the 3 ex-Nordwind ones), and yet others have yet to be identified. So except for maybe one more aircraft before May, I don't think we're going to see anything more from Atlas in the near term.

Thus, it is as-yet-unclear whether Amazon is going to put that Atlas aircraft on a new route or leave it as a spare until there are more aircraft in the mix. The latter seems unlikely, but we will see...

Yochai, if you can give us a heads-up as to what Atlas airframes are at TLV, and whether they have begun conversion, that would be spectacular! (Photos don't hurt, either.)

(FWIW, I have long been fascinated about the store/dismantle operation at Lourdes. It is exactly the opposite climate as our US Desert locations, and yet it's a popular spot for the same work. Also, an ugly/junky operation like plane dismantling seems incongruous with my impression of the place, but it goes to show that work gets done where work gets done.)

I'll be curious to see how the Atlas operation does going forward, not for Amazon but just in general, as I have heard they have over 100 pilots in the pool at UPS alone. I was skeptical about this, but a captain I flew with recently has a friend in the HR department at Atlas and said the same thing. Doesn't mean it's true necessarily, but it will be interesting to me to see how the pilot shortage plays out at the other airlines. The regionals have been experiencing it for a while, so it will be intriguing to me to see how deep it ends up.

JHwk wrote:

What is the total fleet size now?

Well, of the 767-300s that are in Prime Air livery, there are 3 active for ATI and 1 active for Atlas. There is an ATI-destined 767-300 now in paint, and there is an Atlas 767-300 that is in-service but not assigned full-time to any route. In other words, Atlas has 2 767-300s in-service but only one route so far.

So: 4 active, 2 coming on, is how I look at it. Equals six.

Then, in March or maybe late February, we should see another 767-300 going to ATI. That would bring it to 7 out of 28 (the other 12 are 767-200s). But ATI and ABX were only going to have 8 767-300s, so they will be at 5 of their 8 by March. As it presently appears, the other three aircraft for ABX/ATI will be converted by June, and it presently looks like all will go to ATI.

On the 767-200 front, ATI has 6 767-200s in its fleet at present, with another one coming shortly. So that would be 7, all doing Amazon.

Atlas will not have any 767-200s doing Amazon.

ABX currently has five Amazon routes, which requires ABX to have 5 aircraft available for Amazon. However, ABX's 767-200s are not Amazon-only. ABX actually has about 8 or 9 specific aircraft that they rotate through the Amazon routes. ABX will also step up and cover Amazon routes with one of its extra aircraft when ATI can't do it.

wjcandee wrote:

Yochai, if you can give us a heads-up as to what Atlas airframes are at TLV, and whether they have begun conversion, that would be spectacular! (Photos don't hurt, either.)

There are quite a few 767's in TLV right now..not sure which ones go to Atlas and which to ATI,CAM or DHL but here's a list of the 767's I'm aware of at the moment:

N505CS
N633GT
N1229A
N337AZ
N371AA
N370AA
N396AX
N385CM
N284DH
N376CM

N395CM canx for tomorrow..will post new ETA once I have more info

Photos...well...they will come once the aircraft roll out of the conversion line

I probably left one or two frames out..will keep updating once I have more info regarding conversions.

Yochai

Atlas filed to bring N1997A back to ABE again tonight we'll see if it comes in and a) if a new route starts tomorrow or this week or b) they swap it out again and if N1049A stays or goes.