Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:57 pm

It most certainly won't get certified by FAA, so the Russians can forget about any potential order from the West, almost all of Asia/South America and a considerable part of Africa.
They'll make a few frames anyhow, mostly for the Russian Air Force. A few countries like Iran, North Korea or Zimbabwe may be interested.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:29 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
It most certainly won't get certified by FAA, so the Russians can forget about any potential order from the West, almost all of Asia/South America and a considerable part of Africa.


The FAA is the civil aviation organ of the US only, not the west. If EASA certifies it, most other independent CAAs will approve it in short order as well.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7702
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:43 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I wonder if the Russians would be able to source the CFRP materials from China or Iran.


Russia buying technology from Iran? LOL...Iran...surely you can't be serious?

Russia makes their own now because sanctions forced them to have domestic capability.

"Aerocomposite is about to complete examples of the MC-21’s carbon-fiber wing box using locally made thread and resin. Instead of baking the part in autoclaves, the company uses so-called infusion technology it had developed in cooperation with leading European specialists before the chill in relations between the East and West. Aerocomposite has already tested smaller airframe parts to validate strength and comparability with thread and resin no longer available because of the U.S. restrictions on high-tech imports into Russia."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... der-climes

...whether that capability, capacity, and quality will be enough for the MC-21....there's a Russian saying - "поживем - увидим" "we'll live - we'll see".

Yeah I am serious. Russia doesn't care about US sanctions on Iran. And I'm not saying Iran would make the CFRP, I'm talking about Russia buying the raw materials from them.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:16 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I wonder if the Russians would be able to source the CFRP materials from China or Iran.


Russia buying technology from Iran? LOL...Iran...surely you can't be serious?

Russia makes their own now because sanctions forced them to have domestic capability.

"Aerocomposite is about to complete examples of the MC-21’s carbon-fiber wing box using locally made thread and resin. Instead of baking the part in autoclaves, the company uses so-called infusion technology it had developed in cooperation with leading European specialists before the chill in relations between the East and West. Aerocomposite has already tested smaller airframe parts to validate strength and comparability with thread and resin no longer available because of the U.S. restrictions on high-tech imports into Russia."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... der-climes

...whether that capability, capacity, and quality will be enough for the MC-21....there's a Russian saying - "поживем - увидим" "we'll live - we'll see".

Yeah I am serious. Russia doesn't care about US sanctions on Iran. And I'm not saying Iran would make the CFRP, I'm talking about Russia buying the raw materials from them.


Russia would buy (or re-buy) the raw materials from anyone, on that we can agree.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:18 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
It most certainly won't get certified by FAA, so the Russians can forget about any potential order from the West, almost all of Asia/South America and a considerable part of Africa.
They'll make a few frames anyhow, mostly for the Russian Air Force. A few countries like Iran, North Korea or Zimbabwe may be interested.


If the MC-21 supplants a decent portion of 737NG and A320ceo on the Russian market, it will be considered a success by the people who fund the programs.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20112
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:49 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
It most certainly won't get certified by FAA, so the Russians can forget about any potential order from the West, almost all of Asia/South America and a considerable part of Africa.
They'll make a few frames anyhow, mostly for the Russian Air Force. A few countries like Iran, North Korea or Zimbabwe may be interested.


If the MC-21 supplants a decent portion of 737NG and A320ceo on the Russian market, it will be considered a success by the people who fund the programs.


Define "decent portion".

In five and a half years, they've built FOUR. It was originally supposed to EIS in 2012.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
It most certainly won't get certified by FAA, so the Russians can forget about any potential order from the West, almost all of Asia/South America and a considerable part of Africa.
They'll make a few frames anyhow, mostly for the Russian Air Force. A few countries like Iran, North Korea or Zimbabwe may be interested.


If the MC-21 supplants a decent portion of 737NG and A320ceo on the Russian market, it will be considered a success by the people who fund the programs.


Define "decent portion".

In five and a half years, they've built FOUR. It was originally supposed to EIS in 2012.


According to Wikipedia (if anyone has a better source), there appear to be ~100 to 150 737s and ~200 to 250 A320s in fleets in Russia - how many are flying because of COVID? I don't know. However, the flightaware 737 and 320 maps show few AC over Russia right now.

However, when the world gets back to normal, I would imagine if there are 100 to 150 flying in Russia in the next 3-5 years, it will be considered good internally because the whole goal was to substitute foreign suppliers and reduce the effects of sanctions. Considering Aeroflot (who has notoriously pushed back against being forced to buy Russian planes since the 90s) is getting out of the short-haul game, it will be easy to force Rossiya, Pobeda, and the captive domestic airlines to have at least that many.

While I know the point of this forum, is aviation and not political...I must add that the MC-21 (and the CR-929) has as much to do with protectionism (and self-reliance) and revitalizing the domestic aerospace industry as it does with anything aviation.

Hopefully all of the painful lessons of the SSJ have been incorporated into the MC-21, but only time will tell. Having a 3rd (and 4th, if you count the C919) will force the A & B duopoly to innovate instead of grandfathering the 737 and the A320 for 50 and 30 years.

We'll see how it goes, and I completely understand the skepticism.
 
2175301
Posts: 2129
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
In five and a half years, they've built FOUR. It was originally supposed to EIS in 2012.


Just think of the possible positive PR if they just build 8 in the next 11 years...

"By utilizing internal resources instead of relying on foreign sources we've been able to double our production rate..."

Now what if they can get it up to 1 or 2 a year?... Massive increase in production rate and an incredible PR opportunity.... :)

Have a great day,
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8314
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:50 pm

It will be every bit the success all the other Russian airliners have been. Considering the closeness of FAA and EASA standards, hard to believe EASA would cert and not the FAA. But, we’ll never know.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:10 pm

VSMUT wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
It most certainly won't get certified by FAA, so the Russians can forget about any potential order from the West, almost all of Asia/South America and a considerable part of Africa.


The FAA is the civil aviation organ of the US only, not the west. If EASA certifies it, most other independent CAAs will approve it in short order as well.


It could follow a path like the Sukhoi super jet where EASA issued a type certificate.

There are realistically only 5 civil aviation authorities capable of certifying a new plane and issuing a type certificate. FAA (USA), EASA (EU), CAAC (China), ANAC (Brazil), and Transport Canada. If the FAA doesn’t certify the airplane, that takes out countries that rely upon FAA for certification under a bilateral. Any one of the other authorities could certify the airplane and it would be recognized, but without the FAA it will significantly hamper sales prospects, especially for US Sourced components if they aren’t sanctioned. I also imagine that lessors and financiers are going to avoid airplanes not certified by the FAA since residual values of the aircraft are at risk such as what happened with the Sukhoi Superjet foreign sales
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:12 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will be every bit the success all the other Russian airliners have been. Considering the closeness of FAA and EASA standards, hard to believe EASA would cert and not the FAA. But, we’ll never know.


Didn’t EASA certify the Sukhoi Superjet in 2012 but the FAA never ended up certifying the plane despite attempts to do so?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8314
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:48 pm

Looked it up, EASA did indeed type certify it, fat lot of good it did.
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 3360
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:25 pm

Not to get too into politics, but has any other civil aircraft program been targeted with similar sanctions ? What if the Russians are able to substitute all the targeted components with domestically produced parts but with a hefty weight penalty ? It derails the entire project.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:01 pm

alberchico wrote:
Not to get too into politics, but has any other civil aircraft program been targeted with similar sanctions ? What if the Russians are able to substitute all the targeted components with domestically produced parts but with a hefty weight penalty ? It derails the entire project.



See: https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 71.article

TL; DR: They're working on "import substitution", but it takes time and money - and as you mentioned likely sacrifices some weight - though that extra weight won't matter to the intended captive domestic (and potentially sanctioned countries like Iran and Cuba) market because they'll have no choice.

There is a domestic engine option which is the hardest part to build, so they've got that going for them, which is nice.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:55 pm

alberchico wrote:
Not to get too into politics, but has any other civil aircraft program been targeted with similar sanctions ? What if the Russians are able to substitute all the targeted components with domestically produced parts but with a hefty weight penalty ? It derails the entire project.


The 2014 sanctions from the US and EU include dual use technology. It is my understanding that much of the technology for composites and avionics falls into the dual use category since it can also be used for military purposes. I would expect other civil aircraft programs have been affected. There are many dual use technologies in the nuclear, chemical, imaging and computer industries.
 
phugoid1982
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:35 pm

Ridiculous. A sound aircraft produced by competent men with revolutionary technology especially out of autoclave technology falling victim to political tit for tat from both admins. Its frustrating as a scientist working with people who can't take a derivative but are quick to judge that Russian equipment is junk
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8314
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:43 pm

Ok, how would rather resolve political differences than sanctions? War?
 
phugoid1982
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:38 am

Of course not. I believe there is a mutually beneficial solution that would benefit manufacturers on both sides of the pond. Don't want to delve into the political but US sanctions aren't doing anything considering the hypocrisy of turning a blind eye to human rights abuses of China and especially Saudi Arabia, and yet antagonizing Russia for pursuing its own national interests. It just bothers me to see a good engineering product fall prey to political meddling. Call me a naive nerd
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14746
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:16 am

The day China invades and annexes another country (say Taiwan) we'll be able to compare the sanctions they get in return.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8314
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:18 am

No matter what the quality of Russian engineering, the businesses have not, and apparently can not, deliver a competitive product with the necessary support systems in place. It’s not just a plane, it’s the whole system. The politics are also inescapable, murdering dissents on the streets of Western cities, not to mention the streets of Moscow, isn’t behavior capable with our ideals. Neither are the policies of China or Saudi, but a different subject.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:46 am

If past is prologue to the future, consider this. The Sukhoi Superjet and the Tupolev Tu-204 / 214 didn't exactly set the world on fire, for many reasons. So, why should anyone expect that the Irkut MC-21 will?
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 847
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:32 am

SkyVoice wrote:
If past is prologue to the future, consider this. The Sukhoi Superjet and the Tupolev Tu-204 / 214 didn't exactly set the world on fire, for many reasons. So, why should anyone expect that the Irkut MC-21 will?



When it was the Soviet Union, the Eastern Block airlines had to buy Soviet aircraft be it military or civilian except for Yugoslavia as Tito told good ol' Joe where to shove it, Russia today does not have that sphere of influence anymore that's why no airline will by Russian aircraft sanctions or no sanctions.
 
Speedy752
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:25 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It will be every bit the success all the other Russian airliners have been. Considering the closeness of FAA and EASA standards, hard to believe EASA would cert and not the FAA. But, we’ll never know.


Didn’t EASA certify the Sukhoi Superjet in 2012 but the FAA never ended up certifying the plane despite attempts to do so?


I mean interjet flew it into the US so it had to. I thought the Russia vs China difference is that Russia knows how to certify their jets?
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8975
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:15 am

The Superjet failed because Sukhoi succeeded at the difficult bit — creating an efficient and comfortable modern jetliner — and failed at what I would have thought was the easy bit — providing decent tech support
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20112
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:29 am

phugoid1982 wrote:
Its frustrating as a scientist working with people who can't take a derivative but are quick to judge that Russian equipment is junk


What has Russia produced since the fall of the Soviet Union that's sold in any decent sort of number? Heck, half the SSJ production is dotted around Zhukovsky in various stages of rotting.

Post-Soviet Russia hasn't shown itself to be very competent at anything - even their recent history of attempted assassinations is spotty and that's something they used to excel at!
 
Noshow
Posts: 2686
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:27 am

To me the MS-21 looks like some smart concept from an engineering, sizing and passenger comfort standpoint.

However I am not sure about the western contributions taking away the theoretical price advantage of russian made planes compared to western aircraft built in hard currency environments.
Plus the services aspect mentioned above can be the deciding factor. Russia is far from offering some 24/7 services network that is now a key for customer support for western airlines. Nobody wants to store spare parts they must be sourced and made available immediately.
Russian airlines seem to prefer western aircraft whenever they can. There must be a reason for it.
 
Speedy752
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:21 pm

Noshow wrote:
To me the MS-21 looks like some smart concept from an engineering, sizing and passenger comfort standpoint.

However I am not sure about the western contributions taking away the theoretical price advantage of russian made planes compared to western aircraft built in hard currency environments.
Plus the services aspect mentioned above can be the deciding factor. Russia is far from offering some 24/7 services network that is now a key for customer support for western airlines. Nobody wants to store spare parts they must be sourced and made available immediately.
Russian airlines seem to prefer western aircraft whenever they can. There must be a reason for it.


I don’t think the pricing advantages of MC21 or C919 will be enough to outweigh potential pitfalls of support, longevity or fuel burn. These programs tout “half the cost” but A/B give discounts to make the actual price equal to these list prices. Even cutting those in half again wouldn’t likely be worth it for a frame that may not be supported in 10 yrs and have spotty parts availability vs paying the a320/737 slightly higher price for a known 20+ year lifespan. Alas the issue with government programs is they don’t know on what they will base their business, once any captive demand is satisfied the air gets thin unless they decide to bring something new and noteworthy to the market
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:34 pm

cedarjet wrote:
The Superjet failed because Sukhoi succeeded at the difficult bit — creating an efficient and comfortable modern jetliner — and failed at what I would have thought was the easy bit — providing decent tech support

Not only did they fail at providing decent tech support, but they also barred the actual LRU OEMs (who had already an established presence in the field and were willing to support) from providing said support: all had to go through SuperJet International and they were nowhere near ready to support Interjet for example.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:00 am

WayexTDI wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
The Superjet failed because Sukhoi succeeded at the difficult bit — creating an efficient and comfortable modern jetliner — and failed at what I would have thought was the easy bit — providing decent tech support

Not only did they fail at providing decent tech support, but they also barred the actual LRU OEMs (who had already an established presence in the field and were willing to support) from providing said support: all had to go through SuperJet International and they were nowhere near ready to support Interjet for example.


I totally aggree with you ! Interjet was pretty much pi**ed of at the end of the day
 
Pentaprism
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:12 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:45 am

No doubt the sanctions are going to slow down the program but ultimately they may help Russia by forcing them to develop their own technologies. If they can successfully work out how to manufacture the parts they were going to import this will at least mean they can sell the Aircraft to whoever they like without having to worry about sanctions. Personally I am more worried about their ability to offer competitive after sales support than their ability to manufacture anything.

I think they do need to put a lot more planning into facilitating a second hand market for the frames. We have seen with the TU-204 and the SSJ a lot of frames quickly go into storage because of cannibalisation of Parts or the Operator going into Liquidation. There doesn't seem to be a good mechanism in place to work with the Airlines to get them up and running again or buy back the frames and place them with another operator. It's not usually the Manufacturers job to be repurchasing and restoring frames but if a high % of the frames are not in operation the market for spare parts is too small to work efficiently. They probably need at least 200 to 300 frames in regular service to make it work. And that's very hard to achieve when production is slow and every second frame produced ends up in storage long before it's design life is up.
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1741
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: MC-21 Development and Testing Thread

Sat May 15, 2021 1:26 pm

This I think must refer to production of the first customer frame. Some insight into "russification" and wing and engine options:

"the use of advanced composite materials and the infusion technology enabled the design house to develop a wing with an aspect ratio of 11.5—notably higher than respective figures for previous-generation narrowbodies, which typically fall between 8 and 9, and larger commercial jets, at 10 to 10.5. The higher aspect ratio results in a higher lift-to-drag ratio and improved aerodynamic performance"

"Given a choice between the Pratt & Whitney PW1400G and Aviadvigatel PD-14, most airlines selected the first option. Even though the U.S. manufacturer did deliver a number of engines, including four operable prototypes, still tightening U.S. economic sanctions on Moscow threaten their availability. The U.S. State Department has warned many times that it may prohibit any further sales of advanced U.S. equipment to Russia, most notably “turbojet engines.” If that threat materializes, Irkut will not be able to deliver to airlines what they've ordered, hence the need to renegotiate early contracts."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... composites
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3296
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

MC-21 Cabin and Cockpit walkthrough

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:08 am

Great look at the incredibly spacious cabin of this aircraft with some cockpit and exterior shots included. Only words spoken are Russian but it is still a great watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTXSOYs ... %9C%93Aero
 
MaksFly
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: MC-21 Cabin and Cockpit walkthrough

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:24 am

wow, that's great. Looks quite spacious inside. Can't wait to fly on one.
 
744SPX
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: MC-21 Cabin and Cockpit walkthrough

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:43 am

Its a shame that this very nice, very passenger friendly aircraft will fail to gain any significant customers outside of Russia without P&W GTF's. I'd take this over a MAX or NEO anytime. The PD-14 is a generation behind.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14746
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: MC-21 Cabin and Cockpit walkthrough

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:00 am

I haven't followed this too much, has EASA certification been achieved ? Has the plane been "russified" ? Originally it was supposed to be full of western stuff like the Superjet.
 
rigo
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:52 am

Re: MC-21 Cabin and Cockpit walkthrough

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:05 am

I think it has the widest fuselage among all single aisle aircraft, doesn't it?
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14746
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:14 am

Pentaprism wrote:
No doubt the sanctions are going to slow down the program but ultimately they may help Russia by forcing them to develop their own technologies. If they can successfully work out how to manufacture the parts they were going to import this will at least mean they can sell the Aircraft to whoever they like without having to worry about sanctions. Personally I am more worried about their ability to offer competitive after sales support than their ability to manufacture anything.


Developing/reverse engineering systems takes time and boatloads of money. And even when you have that (China) success isn't guaranteed. China also has a huge number of engineers and students that have been to universities all over the world, what about Russia ?
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14605
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: MC-21 Development and Testing Thread

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:22 pm

Irkut plans to launch MC-21-400 by 2025, the new variant of the single-aisle twin-engine will carry up to 260 passengers and will be larger than the Airbus A321

Image
https://www.airway1.com/irkut-plans-to- ... 0-by-2025/

UAC announced that the first mass-production MC-21s will be delivered to Rossiya Airlines next year.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 285
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: MC-21 Development and Testing Thread

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:29 pm

keesje wrote:
Irkut plans to launch MC-21-400 by 2025, the new variant of the single-aisle twin-engine will carry up to 260 passengers and will be larger than the Airbus A321

Image
https://www.airway1.com/irkut-plans-to- ... 0-by-2025/

UAC announced that the first mass-production MC-21s will be delivered to Rossiya Airlines next year.


That's not a lot of stab for even a paper airplane.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7533
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Is the Russian MC-21 dead on arrival?

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:50 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Having a 3rd (and 4th, if you count the C919) will force the A & B duopoly to innovate instead of grandfathering the 737 and the A320 for 50 and 30 years.


A third or fourth option like the C919 or MC-21 won't force Boeing or Airbus to innovate if the orders for the new entrants are largely decided politically or as the result of sanctions. If the engines are a generation behind or the support network is inadequate or the manufacturer can't get production to a level that works for large western customers (i.e. Delta or Lufthansa or Ryanair won't buy a narrowbody fleet replacement if they can only get 5 or 10 per year) then it doesn't put pressure on A or B. The C-Series was a credible threat because Bombardier could check all the boxes -- efficiency, support, availability, reliability -- but unfortunately they didn't have the cash on hand to stay in the business and sold out to Airbus. If they had a sovereign willing to throw unlimited cash at them...
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22887
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:37 pm

oldJoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
The Superjet failed because Sukhoi succeeded at the difficult bit — creating an efficient and comfortable modern jetliner — and failed at what I would have thought was the easy bit — providing decent tech support

Not only did they fail at providing decent tech support, but they also barred the actual LRU OEMs (who had already an established presence in the field and were willing to support) from providing said support: all had to go through SuperJet International and they were nowhere near ready to support Interjet for example.


I totally aggree with you ! Interjet was pretty much pi**ed of at the end of the day

Economical support is hard! The experts in the sub-systems and parts must be on staff. Spare parts and procedures must be on hand with MRB certified repair engineers on call.

My impression is the SSJ had a normal number of problems, but the resolution wasn't in minutes or hours, but drawn out. Parts and procedures should be ready. I've seen business jets chartered to get parts to grounded aircraft fast. I carried an aircraft (small, accessory) gearbox and once personally flew it out (in my checked luggage, drained... supposedly, I got in trouble with the TSA for that...).

On EIS, I've had connexes (freight containers) of parts ready to support first examples at the customer's base airport. A spare engine < 2 hours away (call to delivery, due to insurance costs based on security of the storage spaces available) is typical (from the initial airport).

The SSJ just didn't try on support. 99% dispatch reliability is the minimum airlines can afford to accept. Unfortunately for the MC-21, no one who might buy the aircraft will forget Interjet's experience.

Lightsaber
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russian MC-21 and supply chain challenges

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not only did they fail at providing decent tech support, but they also barred the actual LRU OEMs (who had already an established presence in the field and were willing to support) from providing said support: all had to go through SuperJet International and they were nowhere near ready to support Interjet for example.


I totally aggree with you ! Interjet was pretty much pi**ed of at the end of the day

Economical support is hard! The experts in the sub-systems and parts must be on staff. Spare parts and procedures must be on hand with MRB certified repair engineers on call.

My impression is the SSJ had a normal number of problems, but the resolution wasn't in minutes or hours, but drawn out. Parts and procedures should be ready. I've seen business jets chartered to get parts to grounded aircraft fast. I carried an aircraft (small, accessory) gearbox and once personally flew it out (in my checked luggage, drained... supposedly, I got in trouble with the TSA for that...).

On EIS, I've had connexes (freight containers) of parts ready to support first examples at the customer's base airport. A spare engine < 2 hours away (call to delivery, due to insurance costs based on security of the storage spaces available) is typical (from the initial airport).

The SSJ just didn't try on support. 99% dispatch reliability is the minimum airlines can afford to accept. Unfortunately for the MC-21, no one who might buy the aircraft will forget Interjet's experience.

Lightsaber

In the case of the SSJ, I was working for one of the OEMs at the time. We had Repair Stations and Distribution Warehouses in the US (next door to Mexico), we had Interjet as an established customer, we were willing to invest in Spares and Repair Capabilities; SuperJet International said "nope, everything had to go through us, via Italy". Talk about moronic.
Hopefully for the MC-21, UAC/Irkut will be smarter.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14605
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: MC-21 Development and Testing Thread

Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:31 am

I've been doing the numbers in excel on NB's. I'm stuck with the 79,25t MTOW of the MC-21-300.

With an estimated OEW of 47.5t (sharp because of the 3,6t lighter than A320 wing/ electronics) not much left for fuel, using a 200 seat /20t passenger load.
The MC-21-200 is ok-ísh and the seat capacity of the -300 is where you want to be, but it seems the MC-21-300 needs a ~6t MTOW bump to bring payload-range in line with it's competitors.

With 200 passengers, 12-13 t is left for fuel. Range seems limited to under 2000NM. And Russia is a big country. Do they first want to see how the innovative wings holds out? The russians know their stuff, any info / rumors on MTOW ?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerace, Auchmithie, avfan, avi8, B757236GT, Baidu [Spider], CO764, CrewBunk, DaCubbyBearBar, EFA2014, Google Adsense [Bot], heebeegb, jsfr, MIflyer12, nascar1, qf002, SESGDL, smh747, Someone83, Teganuma, Thenoflyzone, Ziyulu and 197 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos