sfuk
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How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:49 am

Gotta hand to them Saskatchewan folks.....
Although the more pressing question is how did it land there in the first place? Pilot may have had one too many pilsners?  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...atoon-floatplane-takeoff-1.3621297

S
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:53 am

This vid has been around for a while... but never gets old!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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BreninTW
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:53 am

Quoting sfuk (Thread starter):
Although the more pressing question is how did it land there in the first place

At the risk of being boring -- I'd say in a shower of sparks!

Seriously though, I guess the aircraft was modified to be a floatplane at a location close to the airport and then flown out.
 
B2468
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:08 am

The only float plane I have ever been on, a Cessna C208B Caravan Amphibian, had wheels in the floats.

I am not sure if the wheels retracted on takeoff from land, but it definitely had wheels. I did learn that those planes are steered mostly through differential braking (rudder can be used at higher speeds), since the forward wheels are free-spinning casters.
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Viscount724
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:14 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
This vid has been around for a while... but never gets old!

There are other similar videos. I believe the second one is at Prince George, British Columbia (YXS).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JDogTLtels
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJwT-txo7-s

And one in New Zealand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Temm5lI-zUI
 
nitepilot79
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:18 am

How do they get the plane on the trailer?
 
maxpower1954
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:35 am

Cessna did this as far back as the 1950s. The 170 and 195 floatplane prototypes were produced at the Pawnee factory and took off from a flat bed, then proceeded to a nearby lake for water testing. On return they landed on the grass next to the runway.
 
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Siren
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:31 am

So, we see our first 'practical' implementation of "plane on a conveyor belt" in action. Very interesting, although I am genuinely curious as to how these planes get to these land based facilities without wheels on their floats...
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:48 am

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 5):
How do they get the plane on the trailer?

Crane-Assisted Vertical Landing

Quoting Siren (Reply 7):
So, we see our first 'practical' implementation of "plane on a conveyor belt" in action.

I thought that too!


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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moo
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:05 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 7):
So, we see our first 'practical' implementation of "plane on a conveyor belt" in action.

Nope, not even close to emulating the problem in that question...
 
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lapper
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:52 am

If it had been in an endless pool, would it have been able to take off?
 
atct
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:06 am

I've helped spray down 200ft of grass with water to make it slick so my buddy could land his Super Cub on straight floats. Just slid and stopped in about 150ft. 1 year total rebuilding (planned), 8 guys lifting/pulling it back on to a trailer (with help of a winch and wood blacks), and a short drive down the runway and off she went to the nearby river. Fun times.
Trikes are for kids!
 
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antoniemey
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:10 am

Quoting moo (Reply 9):
Nope, not even close to emulating the problem in that question...

There is no problem in that question, as the propulsion for the plane is independent of the wheels that are spinning on the conveyor.

Mythbusters demonstrated it quite well.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:01 pm

[quote=flyingturtle,reply=8]Crane-Assisted Vertical Landing


  
 
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moo
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:45 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 12):
There is no problem in that question, as the propulsion for the plane is independent of the wheels that are spinning on the conveyor.

The question is flawed in that people interpret it in different ways.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 12):
Mythbusters demonstrated it quite well.

No they really did not, because they only "demonstrated" one particular interpretation of the question. But I fear this thread will be locked if we go too far down this road.
 
runway23
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:37 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 14):
No they really did not, because they only "demonstrated" one particular interpretation of the question. But I fear this thread will be locked if we go too far down this road.

Exactly. Mythbusters didn't even explain the concept of airspeed. Their entire test was on the basis of a plane taking off due to it's groundspeed. They don't even go into explaining air speed or the fact that with the conveyor belt the wheels were simply spinning twice as fast but the airspeed was exactly the same.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:08 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 15):
Exactly. Mythbusters didn't even explain the concept of airspeed. Their entire test was on the basis of a plane taking off due to it's groundspeed. They don't even go into explaining air speed or the fact that with the conveyor belt the wheels were simply spinning twice as fast but the airspeed was exactly the same.

Is it midnight? I think I just heard a coffin lid opening down in the crypt.
 
Boof
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting Siren (Reply 7):
Very interesting, although I am genuinely curious as to how these planes get to these land based facilities without wheels on their floats...

Same way a boat gets out of the water. They back the trailer in, winch the plane on and then drive to the facility. When it's all done they fly away as shown in the video or sometimes put them back in the water off the trailer.

It can be complicated if it's a long way from the water to the shop but it can be done with some coordination and help.

Also remember that sometimes (and I think this was mentioned in the thread) that these shops are fitting the floats so they just land and taxi in.

Cheers,
Boof
Bring back Virgin Blue!
 
WIederling
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 2):
At the risk of being boring -- I'd say in a shower of sparks!

Not a given  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61gRPW4vimY

This was a floatplane landing on the grass landing strip at Flensburg Schäferhaus, Germany.

Afair for some MX stuff or other ( llooked it up : it got a set of amphibian floats
so the next start was _not_ an issue.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Scooter01
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:09 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 18):
This was a floatplane landing on the grass landing strip at Flensburg Schäferhaus, Germany.

Ah-that's my favourite Beaver ( LN-BIE ) -also my first mobile phone photo.....



sorry for the quality, it was back in 2002 or '03

Quoting sfuk (Thread starter):
Although the more pressing question is how did it land there in the first place?

Here's one way of doing it:

http://i68.tinypic.com/iz10u1.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/357k9aa.jpg
this 206 had suffered an engine malfunction and safety-landed on a lake. The helicopter airlifted it to a repair station.
Both these pictures were taken by Jan Erik Arud.

Incidentally, I was watching the same helicopter from my kitchen window the other day as it was helping to put out a forestfire N/E of Oslo

Scooter01
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Viscount724
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:16 am

Quoting Boof (Reply 17):
Quoting Siren (Reply 7):
Very interesting, although I am genuinely curious as to how these planes get to these land based facilities without wheels on their floats...

Same way a boat gets out of the water. They back the trailer in, winch the plane on and then drive to the facility. When it's all done they fly away as shown in the video or sometimes put them back in the water off the trailer.

The floats were probably installed at that airport. In Canada dozens of aircraft operate on wheels (or skis) in the winter and on floats in the summer.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:57 am

I would expect that it is fairly common to do this; floatplanes without wheels still have to be maintained, and mechanics do not like to work from boats (too many tools get lost that way, to say nothing of parts.) As Boof said, all you have to do is back a trailer into the water and winch the plane on. A shop that regularly works on floatplanes will have a crane on the hangar rafters to lift the plane off, and then back on for it to take off. The only reason this would be rare is that probably most floats are amphibious.

Quoting B2468 (Reply 3):
I am not sure if the wheels retracted on takeoff from land, but it definitely had wheels. I did learn that those planes are steered mostly through differential braking (rudder can be used at higher speeds), since the forward wheels are free-spinning casters.

Amphibious floats MUST retract the wheels in water. Landing on water with the wheels extended is a guaranteed way to flip the plane over on its back.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Max Q
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:40 am

Always wondered if you could land a float plane on snow, seems like it would work.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 21):
Quoting B2468 (Reply 3):
I am not sure if the wheels retracted on takeoff from land, but it definitely had wheels. I did learn that those planes are steered mostly through differential braking (rudder can be used at higher speeds), since the forward wheels are free-spinning casters.

Amphibious floats MUST retract the wheels in water. Landing on water with the wheels extended is a guaranteed way to flip the plane over on its back.

Amazing how often that happens.There must be dozens of such events in the Transport Canada daily occurrence reports. A few examples, all within the past year or two. The first one just 2 weeks ago:

UPDATE: TSB#A16O0065: C-FSEN, a Piper PA-12 aircraft on amphibious floats, landed at Cambridge (Puslinch Lake), ON (CMB3), with the landing gear in the down position. The aircraft flipped on contact with the water and sank. The pilot, who was wearing a 4 point harness, was not injured and was able to egress the aircraft. The pilot had not received any egress training. The aircraft was substantially damaged and sank.

UPDATE: TSB Report#A15O0106: a Sky International A-1C-180 on amphibious floats, was returning to Sturgeon Lake, ON from Lindsay, ON airport. On departure, the landing gear was not retracted. The aircraft is equipped with an oral warning system which is triggered by airspeed to warn/inform the pilot of the landing gear position prior to landing. The pilot did not recall hearing the warning and landed on Sturgeon Lake with the landing gear extended. On touchdown the aircraft overturned and the cockpit was submerged. The pilot was wearing a shoulder harness restraint and was not injured. The pilot had not received under water egress training. The first action was to release the restraint, and was immediately disoriented. There was air trapped in the cockpit and the pilot was able to take several breaths but was unable to locate the door handle. During his struggles the pilot found a cockpit window which had been opened from the outside by boaters who witnessed the accident and with help, was able to successfully egress from the aircraft.

UPDATE A12P0156: A Christavia ultralight equipped with amphibious floats, overturned while landing on Second Nanaimo Lake, BC. The wheels were in the down position. The pilot, who was the sole person onboard was wearing a shoulder harness and inflatable lifejacket, and was able to escape the aircraft with minor injuries. The pilot was rescued by nearby boaters before SAR arrived on scene. The aircraft was substantially damaged.



The opposite also happens, where they forget to lower the gear on amphibious floats when landing on a runway, normally with less drastic results. A few of many examples:

UPDATE: TSB#A16A0025: N7125K, an amphibious Cessna 208B Caravan aircraft, had departed Sydney, NS (CYQY), en route to St. John’s, NL (CYYT). During the landing phase at St. John’s, the landing gear was not selected down and the aircraft came to rest on the floats. The floats sustained minor damage and the pilot was not injured.

UPDATE: TSB#A15C0094: The Amik Aviation Ltd. Cessna 208 Caravan, C-FTMO, operating on amphibious floats, was landing on Runway 31 at CYAV, St. Andrews, MB. The landing gear was not selected in the down position during the approach. The airspeed prior to touchdown was higher than normal and the landing gear warning sounded when the aircraft was approximately 75 feet above the runway. The aircraft subsequently landed on the float hulls. The aircraft veered to the left and came to a stop approximately 2500 feet from the threshold, remaining on the runway. There were no injuries. The landing gear extended normally during the recovery of the aircraft from the runway. The aircraft sustained damage to the float keel area.

UPDATE: TSB Report#A14O0045: The privately owned amphibious Christen A-1 aircraft touched down on runway 09 at Peterborough, ON (CYPK) with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft came to a stop on the runway and received minor damage to the bottom of the amphibious floats. There were no injuries to either of the two occupants.
 
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Aesma
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:24 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 12):
There is no problem in that question, as the propulsion for the plane is independent of the wheels that are spinning on the conveyor.

But in the case of the flatbed take-off I see a problem. Not a philosophical one, but a practical one : how do you keep the airplane firmly on the truck (it is not attached), while at the same time having the engine powered up, and ground speed increasing ?

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 21):
The only reason this would be rare is that probably most floats are amphibious.

Or most facilities dealing with floatplanes are conveniently installed near a body of water.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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antoniemey
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:26 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
But in the case of the flatbed take-off I see a problem. Not a philosophical one, but a practical one

The idea is only to keep it on the bed until it achieves enough lift to take off, correct? As long as it's not allowed to slide off the back end when the truck accelerates and the truck drives in a straight line, there should be little trouble with that.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
WIederling
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RE: How Does A Float Plane Take Off On Land, No Wheels

Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:42 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 25):
flatbed take-off

You have to keep it in negative lift mode ( for a stable contact to the platform )
and then transition fast into positive lift and climb away. No way back
but also no overtaking of the "tractor".

IMHO a lot less "fallback save" than a regular take off.
Murphy is an optimist

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