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nickflightx
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Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:21 pm

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160609006187/en/

Looks like the problems they were having are solved. Start date is not September 1st.
 
psa188
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:19 pm

Quoting nickflightx (Thread starter):
Start date is not September 1st.

Don't you mean that service will NOW start 9/1?
 
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nickflightx
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:35 pm

Quoting psa188 (Reply 1):

Yes, and I cant edit it now...
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:16 pm

Great! I was hoping HU would start the route, but CA is fine.

Here is an interesting statistic that I just discovered, that I bet will surprise all of us.

If AM starts SJC, as stated on another thread, SJC will have more international carriers servicing it than domestic.

AeroMexico
Air Canada
Air China (begins 9/1/16)
All Nippon Airways
British Airways
Hainan Airlines
Lufthansa (begins 7/1/16)
Volaris Airlines

Alaska Airlines
American Airlines
Delta Air Lines
Hawaiian Airlines
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines
United Airlines


It's equal if you consider QX a separate carrier. F9, VX, CO, NW and US are gone from SJC through merger or discontinuance.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:27 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
Here is an interesting statistic that I just discovered, that I bet will surprise all of us.

If AM starts SJC, as stated on another thread, SJC will have more international carriers servicing it than domestic.

AeroMexico
Air Canada
Air China (begins 9/1/16)
All Nippon Airways
British Airways
Hainan Airlines
Lufthansa (begins 7/1/16)
Volaris Airlines

Alaska Airlines
American Airlines
Delta Air Lines
Hawaiian Airlines
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines
United Airlines


It's equal if you consider QX a separate carrier. F9, VX, CO, NW and US are gone from SJC through merger or discontinuance.

That is a pretty amazing stat for a mid sized airport. I know places like JFK can easily make this statement, I wonder how many mid sized stations can state the same thing? I personally wouldn't count QX as a separate carrier it says Alaska on the plane & then you'd have to part out OO flights on behalf of other carriers etc ... Thanks for the info, interesting.
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a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:35 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
Great! I was hoping HU would start the route, but CA is fine.

I'm pretty sure HU intended to, but once CA got pissed that HU snatched PEK-SJC (which CA feels "entitled" to), this is just a revenge route authority grab.

In terms of airlines, in the short term SJC needs time to digest all the new capacity. But once that's done, for SJC-Asia, KE ICN or even BR TPE. There's a tiny remote chance CX might arrive, but I'd place that probability lower than KE and BR for now.

In terms of SJC-Europe, the next one up should be CDG, with a minor possibility it'll come in the form of XL Airways France instead of AF.

I do not anticipate any SJC-MiddleEast service by ME3 within the next 3 years.
 
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nickflightx
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):

There was a rumor going around at one point that supposedly one of the ME3 was looking into starting.
 
jfk777
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:53 pm

BA, Air China and Hainan have 787 what pane is Lufthansa flying to SJC ? No 787 on order from Germany.
 
a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:54 pm

Quoting nickflightx (Reply 6):
There was a rumor going around at one point that supposedly one of the ME3 was looking into starting.

ME3 look into everything ... how many times we've been told YYY airport on ME3 airline ZZ is *imminent*, only to find out it was all hot air (that wasn't even coming from the nacelles) ?   

Of course, what I stated/guessed were just my armchair guesstimates, not an absolute of anything.

ps : I hope you're excluding TK from this. Their operating profile and route requirements are drastically different from any one of ME3.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
BA, Air China and Hainan have 787 what pane is Lufthansa flying to SJC ? No 787 on order from Germany.

A low-J "Jump" A340-300, which many felt odd considering SJC isn't exactly a poor market.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
BA, Air China and Hainan have 787 what pane is Lufthansa flying to SJC ? No 787 on order from Germany.

LH will be using an A343.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 8):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
BA, Air China and Hainan have 787 what pane is Lufthansa flying to SJC ? No 787 on order from Germany.

A low-J "Jump" A340-300, which many felt odd considering SJC isn't exactly a poor market.

  

Quoting nickflightx (Reply 6):
There was a rumor going around at one point that supposedly one of the ME3 was looking into starting.

I wonder if the runway length would allow such a long flight.   
"Up the Irons!"
 
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nickflightx
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:58 pm

Anyone else also find it a little strange that this route is the only flight Air China has from PVG to the United States, even North America.
 
a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting nickflightx (Reply 10):
Anyone else also find it a little strange that this route is the only flight Air China has from PVG to the United States, even North America.

The "old" equilibrium was that each of CA MU CZ would take PEK, PVG, and CAN, and not step on each other's toes. HU came in and completely upended that arrangement, so now everyone is scrambling to apply for route authorities, sometimes just to block a competitor.

HU's pattern made it clear that they would open new destinations in the airport from both PEK and PVG. CA sat on their laurels and let them grabbed PEK/PVG-SEA and PEK/PVG-BOS. This is the first time CA is finally wising up to pre-emptively strike against a very plausible move (requesting PVG-SJC after they won PEK-SJC).

Many don't know this, but PVG+SHA is the 3rd most important station of CA after PEK and CTU. And adding to that, they already have 6 existing long haul routes out of PVG, 4 to Europe (FRA MUC CDG MXP) and 2 to Australia (SYD MEL).

At the same time, UA+CA came up with 2 contingency strategies to mitigate the failure to launch SFO-PVG #2 due to lack of slots - UA launching SFO-HGH, and CA launching SJC-PVG.
 
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YellowRibbon
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 9):

SJC's 30's are both 11,000 feet long. What's the problem? I doubt they would being in an A388 anytime soon anyways.
He's coming right at us!
 
ericm2031
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:34 pm

Impressive list considering there were no international carriers at one point until May 2010 when Volaris started up.

Volaris 2010
ANA 2013
Hainan 2015
BA 2016
AC 2016
LH 2016
CA 2016
AM 2016
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:55 pm

Quoting YellowRibbon (Reply 12):

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 9):

SJC's 30's are both 11,000 feet long. What's the problem? I doubt they would being in an A388 anytime soon anyways.

That's my question...are the runways long enough for the B77L/B77W/B789/A359/A388?
"Up the Irons!"
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:09 am

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 14):

Plenty of length for all those planes.
Whatever
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:09 am

Quoting nickflightx (Reply 10):
Anyone else also find it a little strange that this route is the only flight Air China has from PVG to the United States, even North America.

They also applied on PVG-YUL for a September launch, but nothing official as of yet. Clearly a sign they want to build up North American ops out of Shanghai.

I personally don't think it will happen.

http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/49/49789.html

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 9):
I wonder if the runway length would allow such a long flight.

Most modern jetliners, including the B77W, B789, A388s, can takeoff at Max takeoff weight with only 10,000 ft to 11,000 ft of runway, assuming the airport is at sea level and temperatures aren't too hot. (SJC is 62 ft ASL, close enough ! and the temps are very normal year round, average highs around 82F in the summer)

[Edited 2016-06-09 17:15:08]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
psa188
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:14 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
If AM starts SJC, as stated on another thread, SJC will have more international carriers servicing it than domestic.

We'll need California Pacific in order to even up the count of domestic carriers.  
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:57 am

This flight will be a hostage for the next US-China bilateral. All slots are consumed for the summer and CA finally found a vacancy after some seasonal flights over at the end of August. If US doesn't allow additional flights, CA will claim that it has to end this flight and SJC will be in the Chinese side. Same fate for the rumored HU's LAS-PEK that may begin in September.
 
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:09 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 15):

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 14):

Plenty of length for all those planes.
Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 9):
I wonder if the runway length would allow such a long flight.

Most modern jetliners, including the B77W, B789, A388s, can takeoff at Max takeoff weight with only 10,000 ft to 11,000 ft of runway, assuming the airport is at sea level and temperatures aren't too hot. (SJC is 62 ft ASL, close enough ! and the temps are very normal year round, average highs around 82F in the summer)

[Edited 2016-06-09 17:15:08]

Thanks so kindly.  
"Up the Irons!"
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:24 am

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 18):
Same fate for the rumored HU's LAS-PEK that may begin in September.

Really want this to come to fruition but who knows. LAS needs more Asia service. I hope QR follows through with LAS-DOH.
 
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YellowRibbon
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:50 am

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 14):
runways long enough for the...B789

Just ask BA - they have a daily flight to LHR from SJC with the B789.

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
and the temps are very normal year round, average highs around 82F in the summer)

But we're missing rain!
He's coming right at us!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:08 am

If I remember correctly, when AA was flying the SJC-NRT route, they had a major issue with SJC's main runway being too short at the time (only 8,900 feet), which forced AA to fly the plane on a short hop to OAK to refuel before flying on to NRT. Only when the runway was extended to 11,000 feet did that practice end. Today, the airport's runways could easily accommodate the 787, A350XWB, and 777 on most international long-range flights.
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:13 pm

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 13):

Impressive list considering there were no international carriers at one point until May 2010 when Volaris started up.

Volaris 2010
ANA 2013
Hainan 2015
BA 2016
AC 2016
LH 2016
CA 2016
AM 2016

Let's not jump the gun on that last entry. Just an application for service as of now. And unless it's a red eye, or they can fit it into a 2 hour window in the mid morning, there won't be anywhere for it to park!

Tomas SJC
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
 
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nickflightx
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:22 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 23):

There's time to park her. After ANA leave 15 is open (although LH might take that). And after Hainan get out of there, both 17 and 18 are operative to take 2 narrow body intl flights. They dont have just red eye or early morning options. In fact, the intl gates are open a good amount of time after the main intl flights come in and then depart. The only planes that use it after i believe are BA, the 2 ASA flights, and sometimes that 2nd VOI, but they have room for an afternoon flight.
 
flySFO
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:41 pm

Quoting nickflightx (Reply 24):

The better question is whether or not there is time for CA to park at the proposed times in this article. NH is on the ground almost the exact same time so 15 is taken. HU overlaps by an hour so 18 is taken (and half of 17 is blocked). Can 16 take a widebody if there is a widebody at 18 (so two plans both block half of 17)? Even if that works, VOI has a 12:07 arrival and I don't see how that's going to work with NH on the ground from 10:50-12:45, HU on the ground from 11:30-13:30, and CA on the ground from 10:40-12:30.
 
gabrielchew
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:00 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
I'm pretty sure HU intended to, but once CA got pissed that HU snatched PEK-SJC (which CA feels "entitled" to), this is just a revenge route authority grab.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 11):
The "old" equilibrium was that each of CA MU CZ would take PEK, PVG, and CAN, and not step on each other's toes. HU came in and completely upended that arrangement, so now everyone is scrambling to apply for route authorities, sometimes just to block a competitor.

The Chinese don't operate like the Americans, "grabbing" authorities from their "competitors" to exact "revenge". Airlines are given what they're given, and it's all organised by the (State run) CAAC. I really doubt anyone at CA HQ was "pissed" that HU got to SJC first; unless someone particularly wanted a free trip there.
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steex
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 26):
The Chinese don't operate like the Americans, "grabbing" authorities from their "competitors" to exact "revenge". Airlines are given what they're given, and it's all organised by the (State run) CAAC. I really doubt anyone at CA HQ was "pissed" that HU got to SJC first; unless someone particularly wanted a free trip there.

I don't know that it's revenge or anger, but there does certainly seem to have been a trend of Chinese carriers requesting authorities that don't seem particularly strategic if not for the goal of blocking a competitor from making better use of the authority. Airlines do generally have the right to choose routes for their applications, and the first mover typically is awarded a route if no other airline requests it. Given that the CAAC does often stick with the "one route, one carrier" rule, there is a real incentive occupy an authority that would otherwise be of strategic benefit to your competitor.

In the case of SJC, it's not entirely clear if CA's application for PVG-SJC is driven by a desire to block HU from adding the route, a compensation for the fact that MU already has PVG-SFO and it is likely therefore not available to CA, or a combination of the two. However, with absolutely no other routes to the USA from PVG, it seems unlikely that CA had a strong desire to make San Jose its first PVG/TPAC inroad with no other motive.
 
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nickflightx
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:49 pm

Quoting flySFO (Reply 25):

Just did a little google maps measuring, and 3 wide body boxes for 15, 16, and 18 are about 200ft wide. So theoretically, you can get a 787 at all 3 gates, so an A330 at 16 with ANA at 15, shouldnt be a problem, it will be tight no dough though! As for Volaris, they may make a small schedule change by chance. That or maybe bus people to the terminal from the hard stands we have, but they are at the north end of Terminal A. Not sure how happy ASA and SWA would be if they had to share the the stands at the end of Terminal B.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:15 am

Quoting flySFO (Reply 25):
can 16 take a widebody if there is a widebody at 18

Yes. You can have widebodies simultaneously on 15, 16B and 18B. Gate 17 becomes unusable in this case. (see the dashed lead-in lines on google earth for gates 16 and 18, which are numbered 16B and 18B. Those are for widebodies.)

[Edited 2016-06-10 18:19:47]
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mham001
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
BA, Air China and Hainan have 787 what pane is Lufthansa flying to SJC ? No 787 on order from Germany.

The article said the new flight will be operated by A330-200.
 
a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:10 am

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 26):

What you're describing was true in the CAAC days.

Today the only things true are (1) somewhat centralized fleet planning, and (2) long haul non-duplicate authority (rare exceptions apply)

YUL-PEK hasn't even come close to proving itself, but yet CA rushed to apply for PVG-YUL. If what you allege is true as some central authority is shoving YUL PVG down CA's throat, then they're not the smartest bunch in the rolm.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:41 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
What you're describing was true in the CAAC days.

Today the only things true are (1) somewhat centralized fleet planning, and (2) long haul non-duplicate authority (rare exceptions apply)

YUL-PEK hasn't even come close to proving itself, but yet CA rushed to apply for PVG-YUL. If what you allege is true as some central authority is shoving YUL PVG down CA's throat, then they're not the smartest bunch in the room.

Air China continue to get preferential treatment from the CAAC .

The Chinese aviation industry remains substantially smoke and mirrors.

Three largely state groups each in a differing global alliance plus one commercial carrier to mop up secondary city routes.

One carrier per route (in the main)

Gabrielchew is largely on the money.
 
a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:58 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):

Preferential only to a certain degree. This route makes little sense strategically. If CA truly had priority, it would've gotten PEK SJC instead of this somewhat oddball consolation prize.

And how would you explain the rushed announcement of PVG YUL ?
 
AirFiero
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:22 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
Preferential only to a certain degree. This route makes little sense strategically. If CA truly had priority, it would've gotten PEK SJC instead of this somewhat oddball consolation prize.

But ask yourself, why PVG? Isn't that a big high tech center? Are there Chinese tech companies based there, with offices in Silicon Valley?
 
rutankrd
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:41 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
And how would you explain the rushed announcement of PVG YUL

Montreal and Canada in general are in the StarA influence arena for frequent flyers and corporate accounts..

SkyTeam (China Eastern) would be pretty weak both ends.
 
a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:05 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 35):

And yet PEK YUL's isn't even firmly established yet, so what was the rush ? AC+CA was already seeking a close partnership so they could've easily waited and possibly have AC operate such a flight if CA can't.

YUL hasn't had long haul to east Asia until PEK, so this is not some proven market waiting for CA to take a slice. So essentially CA is rushing to open up 2 flights to a single destination in rapid succession.

And if the demand truly has spiked so rapidly as of late, you'd think AC CZ MU HU would also wanna jump in the way everyone rushed to SJC. But meanwhile, neither OZ nor NH has displayed any signs of eager for YUL, even though they're both Star and has an ideally located to hub to transfer Chinese bound traffic.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:23 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 36):
And if the demand truly has spiked so rapidly as of late, you'd think AC CZ MU HU would also wanna jump in the way everyone rushed to SJC. But meanwhile, neither OZ nor NH has displayed any signs of eager for YUL, even though they're both Star and has an ideally located to hub to transfer Chinese bound traffic.

Again your using Anglo-Saxon business and capitalist logic !

Remember China remains a centralist organised economy and air travel really is ALL about the regimes global projection.

There has been a little hiatus this spring and a number of route announcements particularly new services from/to Shanghai were postponed/delayed.

This may have been because of local spats between Beijing and the region.

What ever the reasons (probably money) those tensions have eased and Air China surprised not ! are the beneficiary - We will see Air China expand out of Shanghai rather quickly.

A further round of Chinese consolidation is almost certainly the out come.

Likely next route will be Manchester.
 
a380787
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:39 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 37):

I think it's more you using a somewhat antiquated perspective of China that has drastically morphed since the CAAC days. CA CZ and HU all operate long haul out of PEK, so the whole notion of CA as a protected entity has been somewhat dispelled.

CA MU HU all operate long haul out of PVG, which is further illustration that the old setup of CA PEK MU PVG CZ CAN had been upended.

Final point is that HU and HNA Group did not spawn from CAAC, and thus are free from some of its more archaic arrangements and free to play spoiler.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:24 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):
Final point is that HU and HNA Group did not spawn from CAAC, and thus are free from some of its more archaic arrangements and free to play spoiler.

Last point sort of agreed.

However have a closer look at where to each carrier serves particularly long haul from the three main centres

Beijing

Air China - Huge
China Eastern - None
China Southern - Amsterdam (Skyteam partners hub)
HNA Group - Secondary and leisure markets


Shanghai

Air China - Frankfurt, Munich.StarA partner hubs, Paris (anomaly), Milan (heavy in cargo), Due to start San Jose and Manchester
China Eastern - Huge
China Southern - None
HNA Group- Boston only

Guangzhou

Air China - None
China Eastern -None
China Southern- Dominant
HNA Group - Currently none

Pattern and evidence- the CAAC absolutely control the carriers !

[Edited 2016-06-11 02:25:22]
 
PhoenixVIP
Posts: 374
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RE: Air China Finally Coming To SJC

Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):

The CAAC is the overriding company that oversees their operations but the management and daily running of operations for the airlines are done independently.

Should an airline want to operate a new route or be competitive there is nothing wrong by submitting an application to the CAAC for approval. They will decide if they want the route to be competitive, duplicated, etc. One thing that is good about this process is that it prevents overcapacity and hence you actually see the majority of European routes flown by A332s as opposed to larger A333s or 747s or A380s etc.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):

The setup hasn't really been upended, rather some may compliment their operations in capacity (MU and CA from PVG) or fill gap when the major carrier doesn't want to operate it (HU from PEK).
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