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atypical
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:18 pm

I have always been fascinated by FWA and SBN airline service comparisons. We all know that after a very long time of being Indiana's second busiest airport (passengers) that FWA took the title from SBN several years ago. Hoping to glean more information about the race (for lack of a better term) at this moment I pulled some numbers from the DOT and found the situation is less clear when the numbers are compared. So here they are for 2016's first 7 months. Make of them what you will.

Airport...........LF............Flights..........Pass............RPM...........ASM
FWA ............80.49%.....4,641............210,704........113,628.......141,176
SBN.............84.37%.....3,523............186,141........108,914.......129,097
SBN Diff.......104.8%......75.9%...........88.3%..........95.9%.........91.4%
 
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atypical
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:40 am

atypical wrote:

YTD Traffic (enplaned and deplaned) for each month
-------------------July------------June-------------May
IND-----5,015,215-----4,253,152-----3,444,505
PIT-------------------------3,961,802-----3,186,129
CLE------------------------------------------3,317,049
CVG---3,898,461-----3,269,102-----2,626,243


Finally have all July Reports

July YTD Traffic
IND-----5,015,215
PIT------4,739,549
CLE----4,900,412
CVG---3,898,461
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:42 pm

SBN also has the highest percentage of passengers boarded who are Elite Level Frequent Fliers in airline loyalty programs than any airport for its size in Indiana.
 
DCAFlyer01
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:37 pm

With all of this talk for so many years of how valuable SBN flyers are, when will AA finally pull the trigger? Perhaps they won't if they haven't. Many posts have said it is imminent (the oldest I saw was in 2012). This is a significant hole in their carrier roster. Additional G4 city pairs won't fix the holes in the SBN network. Adding AA will do that better than anyone else (DCA,CLT,PHL,LGA,DFW) I would be happy with just one. I know DCA and LGA are slot controlled but I think with connectivity that DCA has for up and down the NE Corridor they could fill flight a day. Just my 2 cents is all.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:32 pm

DCAFlyer01 wrote:
With all of this talk for so many years of how valuable SBN flyers are, when will AA finally pull the trigger? Perhaps they won't if they haven't. Many posts have said it is imminent (the oldest I saw was in 2012). This is a significant hole in their carrier roster. Additional G4 city pairs won't fix the holes in the SBN network. Adding AA will do that better than anyone else (DCA,CLT,PHL,LGA,DFW) I would be happy with just one. I know DCA and LGA are slot controlled but I think with connectivity that DCA has for up and down the NE Corridor they could fill flight a day. Just my 2 cents is all.


All this has been pointed out to AA in meetings with them. AA's properties people have recently been at the airport looking over infrastructure. According to SBN management the only hole SBN has in their network is the one to DFW which is SBN's number two buisiness market. Suprising AUS/SAT is number three ahead of the Houston area which is fourth. This could be idealy filled with a DFW flight.
Personally I feel the real reason that we haven't seen AA return to SBN yet is the pilot shortage at their regional affiliates.

The United Newark flight is working out great for SBN and has somehow stimulated demand in the BOS market. The latest DOT report on each air carrier airports top city pairs showed SBN-BOS as the top market on SBN connections. Personally everyone on this A.net group was surprised to see this demand in the Boston market.

One of SBN's current carriers is also talking about adding a flight to another one of their hubs for international connectivity and is trying to work out the details.

The Skywest CRJ200 maintenance facility at SBN which is a good thing has also slowed growth at SBN for Delta. Right now load factors on the two morning flights to ATL are so high they can use larger aircraft or combine the two flights into a mainline B717 flight. But with Skywest working on as much as 5 CRJ200's a night in SBN it doesn't make sense for Delta to fly any of these planes back empty to any of their hubs so they just use them for their morning flights out. The SBN maintenance facility has tooling and spares for CRJ700 and CRJ900's so maybe an increase in aircraft size will come in the future as the CRJ200's are phased out.
 
DCAFlyer01
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:40 pm

Thank you! That is helpful. All my motivation is for selfish reasons of course (Ex. Plat) on AA. With that being said, I do think that with the addition of DFW or another East Coast market on a non SkyTeam or Star carrier would make for greater competition for more frequent flyers who are paying the premium in the first place.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:59 pm

Also with all the Elite flyers at SBN the DGS folks have been pointing out to Delta the need for the B717 flight to ATL and the ability to offer First Class and Economy Comfort seating in the market.
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:18 am

DCAFlyer01 wrote:
With all of this talk for so many years of how valuable SBN flyers are, when will AA finally pull the trigger? Perhaps they won't if they haven't. Many posts have said it is imminent (the oldest I saw was in 2012). This is a significant hole in their carrier roster. Additional G4 city pairs won't fix the holes in the SBN network. Adding AA will do that better than anyone else (DCA,CLT,PHL,LGA,DFW) I would be happy with just one. I know DCA and LGA are slot controlled but I think with connectivity that DCA has for up and down the NE Corridor they could fill flight a day. Just my 2 cents is all.


I've been hearing that SBN is imminent for AA for a decade. Yes, a decade. In fact, when I talked to Dave Young at FWA (now at RDU) in 2008, his biggest worry was the possibility of AA at SBN sucking away high-yield pax from FWA. It's gotten to the point of "I'll believe it when I see it", elites or no elites.

And if AA couldn't make FWA-PHL work with daily O&D from three massive Fortune 500 companies on both ends (Lincoln National, Wells Fargo, Comcast), I doubt SBN would be a different story. Lincoln has no South Bend presence, Comcast in South Bend is handled out of Chicago (Fort Wayne is home to the northern Indiana Comcast market), and Wells's deposit share in South Bend is less than a third that of Fort Wayne.

I'll play devil's advocate and say that while DFW is the biggest missing link for SBN, DEN is the same for FWA. With this talk that DEN is UA's most profitable hub, could we see SBN/FWA-DEN on UA in the near future? SBN has a track record with past F9 service, but there's strong demand from FWA as well that's currently being met via IND. I could see UA adding both, especially with SkyWest MX bases at both stations.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:15 am

Possibly UA could start up a flight from SBN-DEN and FWA-DEN. F9's track record is this: Using an Airbus A319 aircraft they had problems filling it during the months of January and February. All other months they averaged 118-130 passengers per flight. Their loads were actually better than the time UA operated this flight with a B727. If UA could make the fares reasonable and get O&D ratios to connecting up with good yileds I'm sure they could make this work. SBN had enough passengers with F9 on the route for UA to operate say an E175 during the slow months and an Airbus A319 or B737-800 from March thru Christmas. or with the Skywest MX base at both stations to offer 2 flights a day on E175 or CRJ7 or CRJ9 aircraft.

On a side note another SBN-NYC area flight is being planned by another carrier.

I'm still surprised at the DOT connecting reports that have shown such a strong demand in the SBN-BOS market. It seems to be the number 1 connecting market for the DTW and EWR flights from SBN.

According to DGS folks at SBN AA had been in SBN this past June looking over infrastructure etc. As far as starting service I'll believe it when I see it. I personally think it's related to a shortage of pilots and aircraft at their regional affiliates that is holding them back.
 
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atypical
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:13 am

FWAERJ wrote:
DCAFlyer01 wrote:
With all of this talk for so many years of how valuable SBN flyers are, when will AA finally pull the trigger? Perhaps they won't if they haven't. Many posts have said it is imminent (the oldest I saw was in 2012). This is a significant hole in their carrier roster. Additional G4 city pairs won't fix the holes in the SBN network. Adding AA will do that better than anyone else (DCA,CLT,PHL,LGA,DFW) I would be happy with just one. I know DCA and LGA are slot controlled but I think with connectivity that DCA has for up and down the NE Corridor they could fill flight a day. Just my 2 cents is all.


I've been hearing that SBN is imminent for AA for a decade. Yes, a decade. In fact, when I talked to Dave Young at FWA (now at RDU) in 2008, his biggest worry was the possibility of AA at SBN sucking away high-yield pax from FWA. It's gotten to the point of "I'll believe it when I see it", elites or no elites.

And if AA couldn't make FWA-PHL work with daily O&D from three massive Fortune 500 companies on both ends (Lincoln National, Wells Fargo, Comcast), I doubt SBN would be a different story. Lincoln has no South Bend presence, Comcast in South Bend is handled out of Chicago (Fort Wayne is home to the northern Indiana Comcast market), and Wells's deposit share in South Bend is less than a third that of Fort Wayne.

I'll play devil's advocate and say that while DFW is the biggest missing link for SBN, DEN is the same for FWA. With this talk that DEN is UA's most profitable hub, could we see SBN/FWA-DEN on UA in the near future? SBN has a track record with past F9 service, but there's strong demand from FWA as well that's currently being met via IND. I could see UA adding both, especially with SkyWest MX bases at both stations.


Having three or zero Fortune 500 companies with operations in an area is nice but in itself is not an indicator of the air service market. South Bend for years did not have those advantages and still flew more passengers than Ft. Wayne. AA will pull the trigger or not based on whatever department makes those decisions according to their internal process. Maybe the piece of paper that says SBN is too close to the edge of the dartboard. I think SBN is going to do well for whatever airline can set up service that can include TX without going through O'Hare or backtracking..
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:24 pm

SBN's traffic figures are in for August and September. September includes mainline Delta flights for the Notre Dame football home weekends.
With the two Newark flights and Delta mainline for Notre Dame Football home weekends even if we board the same amount of passengers as last year for October November and December we will easily break the 300,000 enplanment mark.
http://flysbn.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... p-2016.pdf
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:18 pm

Here is the latest on AA service at SBN. "We just went down to meet with AA a few weeks ago. SBN has moved up on their list, but I don't have a firm time for service. SBN is a bigger risk for them as they will be entering our market so start-up costs are greater than what they are for an existing airline to add a route. Not only would they have to pull another under-performing route to start our service, but they want to guarantee that it will do well. Which is our goal too."

Reference Delta at SBN: "We do know we will eventually be seeing 2 class cabins on the ATL route. Maybe by 3Q17. Delta continues to perform very well in SBN. Because of DL's brand loyalty in our market I think a New York route would do well. However, I have not heard anything firm on this. Of course, we see LaGuardia consistently on football weekends."

"I have also seen BOS move up in our O&D. It is very interesting what service does to stimulate other markets. "

"DEN is definitely the next UA route that makes the most sense. We also know demand is there as was shown when we had F9. Granted, there is a difference between a ULCC and the legacies, but I believe it would do well."

"The ramp is a capital project that we are addressing."

"We continue to struggle with getting people to fly to their connection instead of drive. This fall has been fantastic. Our enplanements in September were up nearly 14%! However, as airlines continue to add seats to the market, we are still only capturing about 40% of the air travel from our area. Our goal is never to get to 100%, but we should be at 50-60%. At that point, it becomes a no brainer for AA to enter the market, DEN, CLT, DC, and a few other domestic routes."

So a few more people need to stop driving to Chicago to catch flights.
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:12 am

freakyrat wrote:
"We continue to struggle with getting people to fly to their connection instead of drive. This fall has been fantastic. Our enplanements in September were up nearly 14%! However, as airlines continue to add seats to the market, we are still only capturing about 40% of the air travel from our area. Our goal is never to get to 100%, but we should be at 50-60%. At that point, it becomes a no brainer for AA to enter the market, DEN, CLT, DC, and a few other domestic routes."

So a few more people need to stop driving to Chicago to catch flights.


Reminds me of what FWA's leadership said around 2011 when they had about 275,000 enplanements per year and 40% of the market: FWA didn't want to get to 100%, as FWA has competition from IND, DAY, ORD/MDW, and yes, SBN. (TOL was a factor back then as well because of Direct Air to PGD.) Instead, the FWACAA had a long-term goal of 400,000 enplanements and half the market. Mind you, DAY was a much bigger factor in 2011 than today, G4 hadn't started FWA-PGD (which has been a goldmine for them) which meant that everyone was driving to IND for FL's RSW and SRQ flights, and FWA-CLT and FWA-EWR were still ideas pitched to airlines.

Well, FWA should be at 360,000 enplanements and a little under half the market this year, largely due to the introduction of EWR and a second CLT. For FWA, their no-brainers should be DEN, DCA, and LAS - just one or two of these three combined with upgauging on existing flights can get them to the magic 400,000 enplanement mark.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:33 pm

SBN should have a banner year in 2017 with upgauging on the ATL flights, the possible addition of SBN-JFK on Delta and DEN on United. We will also have to see what International flights they can schedule. CUN is a no brainer and MYNN is another possible destiantion. I believe that if the airport can get less leakage to MDW/ORD in the next two years SBN could have the following service: ATL DTW MSP JFK ORD EWR DEN DCA DFW CLT LAS SFB PGD PIE IWA CUN.
 
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:49 am

freakyrat wrote:
I believe that if the airport can get less leakage to MDW/ORD in the next two years SBN could have the following service: ATL DTW MSP JFK ORD EWR DEN DCA DFW CLT LAS SFB PGD PIE IWA CUN.


FWA already has 11 of those cities, I must add (along with MYR, not served from SBN).

The real challenge for SBN right now is the massive ULCC growth at ORD that's hampering growth locally. If it weren't for the ULCCs at ORD, I think SBN could have more traffic than today. Remember, the problem that FWA faced for years was FL's renegade pricing at both IND and DAY - as soon as the pricing at IND and DAY went to WN levels, FWA saw massive growth.
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atypical
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:29 pm

Saw these two flights in the air at the same time and I wondered if anyone has any information on what they are related to:

DL4859/SKW4859 FWA-SLC CRJ2
UA3166/ASQ3166 BNA-SBN E145
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:32 am

atypical wrote:
Saw these two flights in the air at the same time and I wondered if anyone has any information on what they are related to:

DL4859/SKW4859 FWA-SLC CRJ2
UA3166/ASQ3166 BNA-SBN E145


Not sure about the latter, but the former is almost certainly a SkyWest ferry flight - OO has a CR2 MX base at FWA that handles DL, UA, and (occasionally) AA planes.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:56 am

ASQ3166 BNA-SBN is a ferry flight to operate the Monday morning SBN-EWR flight as tonight's inbound flight from EWR to SBN was cancelled. The morning ASQ flight from SBN-EWR is such a money maker for United that they will ferry an airplane into SBN from somewhere if the late night inbound flight from EWR is ever cancelled.
 
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atypical
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:38 am

freakyrat wrote:
ASQ3166 BNA-SBN is a ferry flight to operate the Monday morning SBN-EWR flight as tonight's inbound flight from EWR to SBN was cancelled. The morning ASQ flight from SBN-EWR is such a money maker for United that they will ferry an airplane into SBN from somewhere if the late night inbound flight from EWR is ever cancelled.


Interesting. I never considered these as ferry flights. I always assumed the ferries would file flight plans on the N-number and not ever has a flight number assigned. What is the benefit using a flight number over just a flight plan and n-number?
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:07 pm

The longest I've see an airplane ferried to SBN for the morning EWR flight was from Burlington VT.
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:30 am

FWA finally posted their results up to October of this year:
http://fwairport.com/uploads/page/FWA%2 ... 202016.pdf

Looks like EWR is off to a strong start and that there has been almost no impact to AA's pax numbers after dropping PHL. And if current trends continue, FWA should have a record year in 2016 - YTD pax are up 1% over the same period in 2015, and it won't take much over the 2015 numbers to break the 2000 record.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:00 pm

SBN's numbers are in for October. A whopping 10% increase in enplanements over last year including the second daily EWR flight and numbers skewed a little bit by Delta mainline during football weekends but none the less very good.

http://flysbn.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... t-2016.pdf
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:04 pm

FWA numbers are in for November:
http://fwairport.com/uploads/page/FWA%2 ... r%202016(1).pdf

Normally, November and December don't show large increases. But this November had a 3.2% increase in pax over last November, and YTD pax are up 1.24%. If next month shows similar or better numbers, FWA will have set an all-time passenger record - the last one was set in 2000, and the FWACAA has records dating back to 1992.

UA showed the largest increase in pax at 37%, largely due to EWR. And even with the lack of PHL, AA's use of the CR9 on FWA-DFW meant that AA still posted a gain. G4 was the hardest hit with a 15% decrease, but this was largely due to the seasonal suspension of AZA that wasn't as long last year. This month should be much better for G4, as the AZA suspension is done and they have added a lot of extra capacity to the FWA-PIE and FWA-PGD routes (more than last year) that continues into January.
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FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:43 pm

I also talked with FWA's air service director earlier today regarding air service at FWA. Like me, she basically said that if December goes to plan, FWA will break their record - this will be FWA's seventh consecutive year of growth.

FWA now has 50% of the local air travel market, which is much higher than their pre-Great Recession levels. As always, the number one competitor is IND, with DTW being number two and Chicago airports in third place, and DAY leakage has dropped significantly since the WN/FL merger. Some past fierce rivals, TOL in particular, are now non-issues. Much like what the person from SBN said, she acknowledged that while FWA isn't going to be the choice of travelers every time, there's still room for growth, and what really matters to the airport is that travelers simply check FWA every time they fly. (And personally, I do exactly that.)

She said to expect more upgauges in 2017, particularly on ATL and CLT, both of which are strong performers. SkyWest can now handle CRJ-700s and CRJ-900s at their FWA MX base, so don't be surprised if OO is one of the operators. If there are any new routes in 2017, they will probably be LAS on G4 or DEN on UA, more likely the former due to the new G4 Airbus base at LAS. IMO, UA probably wants EWR to mature before committing to DEN.

IND is a traditional rival for FWA, but even with the major recent service additions, there has been no increase in leakage to IND among Fort Wayne pax, which is very different from the past. In fact, FWA's share of the Fort Wayne market has actually grown during this time of growth at IND. Instead, the growth at IND is being fueled by the rapidly growing Indianapolis economy and the corresponding increase in business travel.

EWR is going exactly on-plan and is doing very well for UA. I think EWR is more than picking up where PHL left off.

G4 turns ten at FWA next year, and while she couldn't get into specifics, they have plans. However, she could tell me that Easter Seals Arc will be teaming up with the FWACAA and Allegiant to do a mock flight for families that have children with autism in February. It's unknown at this time whether G4 will be using an MD-80 or an Airbus for this (wonderful) community service event.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:53 pm

SBN's upguages on the ATL flights is right now set for the 3rd QTR of 2017. SBN's OO maintenace base can also wotrk on CRJ700 and 900's. I would also expect that when G4 gets their new A320's and establishes them in Vegas that both SBN and FWA will go to busses on the LAS flights because of their reliabilty and CASM and RASM are just so much better.
 
SmithAir747
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:01 pm

Now that the AA route between FWA and DFW is two-class equipment (CRJ-900 with F and Y cabins, including Main Cabin Extra), what are the chances that the other carriers (UA and DL) will follow suit in future? I fly back home to Fort Wayne once or more a year for family visits and holidays, and hope for more options in equipment and classes of service. I'm currently booked to fly DEN-DFW-FWA on 20 December and back (FWA-DFW-DEN) on 1 January. On the DFW-FWA and FWA-DFW legs, I'm booked in Main Cabin Extra on CRJ-900 aircraft. In future, if I can swing it, I want to take that route again in F. I deliberately chose to go through DFW in order to avoid ORD in this time of year (because of past experience with weather related delays and cancellations at ORD), and I saw the new CR9 service on the route with two classes, so why not try it? What's to stop DL and UA from using larger RJs with two classes, to provide FWA travellers with more options?

Also, is there a possibility of future service to FWA on the larger regional jets, like the Embraer E-jets (E170 through E195) and Bombardier CSeries? Or will FWA always be limited to larger ERJs and CRJ types (up to CRJ-900 size)?

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:45 pm

SmithAir747 wrote:
Now that the AA route between FWA and DFW is two-class equipment (CRJ-900 with F and Y cabins, including Main Cabin Extra), what are the chances that the other carriers (UA and DL) will follow suit in future? I fly back home to Fort Wayne once or more a year for family visits and holidays, and hope for more options in equipment and classes of service. I'm currently booked to fly DEN-DFW-FWA on 20 December and back (FWA-DFW-DEN) on 1 January. On the DFW-FWA and FWA-DFW legs, I'm booked in Main Cabin Extra on CRJ-900 aircraft. In future, if I can swing it, I want to take that route again in F. I deliberately chose to go through DFW in order to avoid ORD in this time of year (because of past experience with weather related delays and cancellations at ORD), and I saw the new CR9 service on the route with two classes, so why not try it? What's to stop DL and UA from using larger RJs with two classes, to provide FWA travellers with more options?

Also, is there a possibility of future service to FWA on the larger regional jets, like the Embraer E-jets (E170 through E195) and Bombardier CSeries? Or will FWA always be limited to larger ERJs and CRJ types (up to CRJ-900 size)?

SmithAir747


Skywest sort of has a stranglehold on service in FWA and SBN having maintenance bases at both that can service up to CRJ900's and they provide the feeder feed for Delta and United at both airports. SBN right now services up to 5 aircraft a night. Larger regiona jets (E195 and C-Series) are mainline aircraft according to pilot scope clauses. I suppose Delta could operate their CSeries at both airports but with the maintenance bases there for Skywest why ferry empty airplanes around when you can take them out of overnight maintenance and operate regular flights with them. Delta runs very high LF's on the two morning Skywest ATL flights from SBN and I suppose from FWA too and could easily replace those flights with a B717 but again with Skywest maintenance there it doesn't make much sense. Right now Delta is scheduled to operate CRJ700 or 900 aircraft on SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd QTR. of 2017 and I suppose it's the same with FWA.
 
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atypical
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:38 pm

Some interesting news out of IND:

Seasonal SAN is coming on June 4th along with an EWR flight on WN.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... top-flight

LAF appears to have submitted an EAS (or EAS like) incentive package to UA for the resumption of services to LAF. This does fit in well in UA's recently announced focus at ORD.

http://www.jconline.com/story/money/201 ... /95911872/
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:08 pm

Now that WN is leaving DAY, I think that for FWA, DAY leakage levels will now be minimal. It will be like how TOL was a big leakage factor for years, but TOL service slipped to the point where TOL is now less than 1% of the Fort Wayne air travel market.

The only LCC left at DAY is G4, and it's to SFB, PIE, and PGD - routes also served by G4 from FWA. If it were a route like LAS or FLL served from DAY, I would be worried, but it's not. And G4 tends to price similarly between airports in a region, though there was one brief time when G4 priced their fares from IND to overlapping airports a little less than they were from FWA. One poster on the FWA Facebook page alleged underhanded incentives, but WN had a fare sale at the same time that undoubtedly pressured rivals to cut fares.

But at one time, back in the days of a large FL DAY presence and FL's renegade pricing strategy, DAY was a pretty significant leakage point for FWA. Not quite as much as IND, of course, but on par with the leakage to DTW. I remember talking to Dave Young, now at RDU, about FL's presence at both IND and DAY as he was trying to lure FL to FWA. (And I must add that the only thing that stopped it was the WN merger and FL's subsequent freeze on new domestic cities.) There was talk of B6 at DAY back then as well, which fit in with DAY's advertising saying "more low fares than any other airport in the region". Some of those ads even aired in Fort Wayne.

Of course, that statement is no longer true or in use. But as fares at DAY skyrocketed to higher-than-CVG levels, FWA saw an influx of pax from places like Van Wert that were part of the FWA catchment area more so than DAY, but traditionally chose DAY over FWA because fares at DAY used to be so low.
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SmithAir747
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:22 pm

freakyrat wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
Now that the AA route between FWA and DFW is two-class equipment (CRJ-900 with F and Y cabins, including Main Cabin Extra), what are the chances that the other carriers (UA and DL) will follow suit in future? I fly back home to Fort Wayne once or more a year for family visits and holidays, and hope for more options in equipment and classes of service. I'm currently booked to fly DEN-DFW-FWA on 20 December and back (FWA-DFW-DEN) on 1 January. On the DFW-FWA and FWA-DFW legs, I'm booked in Main Cabin Extra on CRJ-900 aircraft. In future, if I can swing it, I want to take that route again in F. I deliberately chose to go through DFW in order to avoid ORD in this time of year (because of past experience with weather related delays and cancellations at ORD), and I saw the new CR9 service on the route with two classes, so why not try it? What's to stop DL and UA from using larger RJs with two classes, to provide FWA travellers with more options?

Also, is there a possibility of future service to FWA on the larger regional jets, like the Embraer E-jets (E170 through E195) and Bombardier CSeries? Or will FWA always be limited to larger ERJs and CRJ types (up to CRJ-900 size)?

SmithAir747


Skywest sort of has a stranglehold on service in FWA and SBN having maintenance bases at both that can service up to CRJ900's and they provide the feeder feed for Delta and United at both airports. SBN right now services up to 5 aircraft a night. Larger regiona jets (E195 and C-Series) are mainline aircraft according to pilot scope clauses. I suppose Delta could operate their CSeries at both airports but with the maintenance bases there for Skywest why ferry empty airplanes around when you can take them out of overnight maintenance and operate regular flights with them. Delta runs very high LF's on the two morning Skywest ATL flights from SBN and I suppose from FWA too and could easily replace those flights with a B717 but again with Skywest maintenance there it doesn't make much sense. Right now Delta is scheduled to operate CRJ700 or 900 aircraft on SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd QTR. of 2017 and I suppose it's the same with FWA.


I just got back from FWA after spending almost a fortnight there visiting family and friends for the holidays. I flew AA DEN-DFW-FWA on 20 December, and back on AA FWA-DFW-DEN on 1 January. Both of my legs between DFW and FWA were on AA's CRJ-900, with F and Y seating (and the Y cabin had MCE in the first few rows). It was strange seeing an F cabin on a FWA service (my first time seeing F service on any FWA route).

Now that AA have F + Y service on that route, what are the chances that the two other legacies (DL and UA) could bring 2-cabin service to FWA?

SmithAir747
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FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:28 pm

SmithAir747 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
Now that the AA route between FWA and DFW is two-class equipment (CRJ-900 with F and Y cabins, including Main Cabin Extra), what are the chances that the other carriers (UA and DL) will follow suit in future? I fly back home to Fort Wayne once or more a year for family visits and holidays, and hope for more options in equipment and classes of service. I'm currently booked to fly DEN-DFW-FWA on 20 December and back (FWA-DFW-DEN) on 1 January. On the DFW-FWA and FWA-DFW legs, I'm booked in Main Cabin Extra on CRJ-900 aircraft. In future, if I can swing it, I want to take that route again in F. I deliberately chose to go through DFW in order to avoid ORD in this time of year (because of past experience with weather related delays and cancellations at ORD), and I saw the new CR9 service on the route with two classes, so why not try it? What's to stop DL and UA from using larger RJs with two classes, to provide FWA travellers with more options?

Also, is there a possibility of future service to FWA on the larger regional jets, like the Embraer E-jets (E170 through E195) and Bombardier CSeries? Or will FWA always be limited to larger ERJs and CRJ types (up to CRJ-900 size)?

SmithAir747


Skywest sort of has a stranglehold on service in FWA and SBN having maintenance bases at both that can service up to CRJ900's and they provide the feeder feed for Delta and United at both airports. SBN right now services up to 5 aircraft a night. Larger regiona jets (E195 and C-Series) are mainline aircraft according to pilot scope clauses. I suppose Delta could operate their CSeries at both airports but with the maintenance bases there for Skywest why ferry empty airplanes around when you can take them out of overnight maintenance and operate regular flights with them. Delta runs very high LF's on the two morning Skywest ATL flights from SBN and I suppose from FWA too and could easily replace those flights with a B717 but again with Skywest maintenance there it doesn't make much sense. Right now Delta is scheduled to operate CRJ700 or 900 aircraft on SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd QTR. of 2017 and I suppose it's the same with FWA.


I just got back from FWA after spending almost a fortnight there visiting family and friends for the holidays. I flew AA DEN-DFW-FWA on 20 December, and back on AA FWA-DFW-DEN on 1 January. Both of my legs between DFW and FWA were on AA's CRJ-900, with F and Y seating (and the Y cabin had MCE in the first few rows). It was strange seeing an F cabin on a FWA service (my first time seeing F service on any FWA route).

Now that AA have F + Y service on that route, what are the chances that the two other legacies (DL and UA) could bring 2-cabin service to FWA?

SmithAir747


DL has dabbled with two-class service on one of the DTW flights during summer months in the past, and SkyWest has what's needed for CR7 and CR9 maintenance at FWA. I'd say that DL to ATL is next to be upgauged, along with AA to CLT. For UA, I could see upgauging on EWR if it continues to be successful and 2-class jets from day one on DEN should it start, but not ORD because it's too short a route.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:37 pm

I wonder if the afternoon UA SBN-EWR flight will return next summer because it was very popular. If SBN ever gets DEN back with the data they have from the F9 service UA could easily run a daily mainline Airbus A319 R/T. F9 flew and average of 118-120 per flight and sometimes all 133 seats were taken. That leaves an airline like UA with higher costs wondering how could we operate this profitably and still satisfy demand. This is where an aircraft like the C-Series can come into play. Right now I suppose they could do two flights a day one with an E175 and one with a CRJ. In the long run considering all costs I would bet the CASM on the A319 is less than the two of them combined. SBN is in a good postion if they would ever like the DEN flights to resume.

No word yet on DL SBN-JFK operated by Endeavor Air. It's being talked about though by the Delta folks and the local folks at DGS. Delta's SBN-ATL flights are scheduled for two-class jets in the 3rd Qtr. They have also dabbled in a CRJ900 on the afternoon SBN-MSP flight with great success. I guess it is just a matter of time before both SBN and FWA phase out CRJ200's and ERJ's
 
beidus
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:51 pm

Looks like FWA-CLT gets upgraded to CRJ-700 equipment operated by PSA starting March 5th. It seems to be on the schedule on AA.com through the end of the year as a CR7.
asdf
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:53 am

beidus wrote:
Looks like FWA-CLT gets upgraded to CRJ-700 equipment operated by PSA starting March 5th. It seems to be on the schedule on AA.com through the end of the year as a CR7.


I guess my prediction of CLT getting upgauged this year was right. My bet: DL will respond on FWA-ATL as fast as SkyWest can get their FWA MX facility fully prepared for the CR7/9.

But to be honest, CLT has been a real diamond in the rough for FWA. And CLT was originally considered a "bonus" from AA in the FWACAA's view for landing the ill-fated FWA-PHL flights... yet that "bonus" went to 2x daily and now from CR2 to CR7 over the course of two and a half years. It's a net gain of 168% - impressive for both AA and FWA.

I'd be interested to see if AA tries more small market Midwest-CLT routes with the success of FWA, EVV, GRR, PIA, and others. Of course, SBN springs to mind should AA finally pull the trigger on SBN, but outside of Indiana, there are existing small-market but strong AA stations like AZO, BMI, and TOL that would be good fits.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:55 am

The only thing that seems to be keeping AA from pulling the trigger on SBN is they would probably like to see SBN achieve 50% market share. Besides DFW the routes that AA would really like from SBN are CLT and DCA. One thing that can help is for SBN to try to stop the leakage to MDW. I've actually given them some help in that respect. I booked an August flight on Delta from DFW to SBN for the same price i would pay from DAL-MDW on WN. After I booked it I informed SBN officials of that fact. I didn't look at any other markets out of SBN but if this one is any indication, then I would say that Delta is closely matching WN in SBN's most popular markets in order to stop the leakage to WN at MDW and to increase their market share at SBN.
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:40 pm

New flights from IND ;
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2017 ... /96191480/
WN to San seasonal – Think I read somewhere that San is our largest market without direct service. Do you think the seasonal is a test run or are they out of planes? Also I like that they mentioned WN plans to increase available seat miles by 3.5% does anyone have an idea as to how many seats/ planes / potential new routes that could be?
http://ir.allegiantair.com/phoenix.zhtm ... ID=2236430
G4 to Aus 2x weekly and Vps seasonal
Aus is a great catch, but really 2x weekly and they promote it for the tech community?

http://www.ibj.com/articles/62051-holco ... op-flights
$5 mil for the next 2 years to promote Indiana airports. I like that the state is supporting international expansion to LHR and FRA in a collaborative effort w/IND, the city and business community. It's about time!
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:29 pm

IndEagle wrote:
New flights from IND ;
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2017 ... /96191480/
WN to San seasonal – Think I read somewhere that San is our largest market without direct service. Do you think the seasonal is a test run or are they out of planes? Also I like that they mentioned WN plans to increase available seat miles by 3.5% does anyone have an idea as to how many seats/ planes / potential new routes that could be?
http://ir.allegiantair.com/phoenix.zhtm ... ID=2236430
G4 to Aus 2x weekly and Vps seasonal
Aus is a great catch, but really 2x weekly and they promote it for the tech community?

http://www.ibj.com/articles/62051-holco ... op-flights
$5 mil for the next 2 years to promote Indiana airports. I like that the state is supporting international expansion to LHR and FRA in a collaborative effort w/IND, the city and business community. It's about time!


"G4 to AUS. For SBN the AUS/SAT market shows up as the number 3 business market for SBN connecting passengers and number 2 in Texas behind DFW which was SBN's number 2 business market. This was a few years ago but seems like with the EWR flights SBN's number 2 business market is now BOS. A totally new O/D destination. This was is last years DOT's top city pair markets for air carrier airports. If this keeps up this year and shows an increase and is consistent might Delta throw in a daily RJ flight SBN-BOS for a few months to guage demand after all they have a mini focus city there.
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:44 pm

Looks like FWA got a lot of DL diversions today - ORF, MLI, EVV, ROC, and HSV.

Was there bad weather at DTW, and did SBN get DL diversions as well?
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:02 am

FWAERJ wrote:
Looks like FWA got a lot of DL diversions today - ORF, MLI, EVV, ROC, and HSV.

Was there bad weather at DTW, and did SBN get DL diversions as well?


Large chunks of the upper midwest have been blanketed in fog for the last couple days. It's slowly drifting east and beginning to hit DTW. I'd expect to see more either this evening or in the morning, unless of course the weather in FWA goes down more.
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freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:51 am

FWAERJ wrote:
Looks like FWA got a lot of DL diversions today - ORF, MLI, EVV, ROC, and HSV.

Was there bad weather at DTW, and did SBN get DL diversions as well?


Checking FlighhtAware looks like SBN had their normal Sunday complement of flights with delays due to fog. SBN presently has 1/2 mile vis.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:41 pm

SBN's numbers are in for November. Another increase in enplanments.

http://flysbn.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 2016-2.pdf
 
lrdc9
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:53 pm

Not to disturb the FWA/SBN updates thread here, but.... :p

EVV announced a couple days ago that AA is upgauging the DFW flight from what I believe had been an E145 to a CR9.
Just say NO to scabs.
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:58 am

Congratulations to FWA as a 16-year-old passenger record is broken, even after the end of PHL:
http://fwairport.com/news/growth-contin ... rt-in-2016

727,896 combined pax traveled in and out of FWA in 2016. For reference purposes, there were 360,010 enplanements during the previous record year of 2000 and 365,884 last year. Growth is expected to continue in 2017, with DFW upgauged, CLT soon to be upgauged, potential for upgauges from DL, and probably some things that we don't know about yet.

Down I-69, IND is going to break a longtime record, too. Anyone from Indy care to share?
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nikeson13
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:40 am

IND actually dropped in passenger numbers YOY in Dec '16, -4.1% due to cuts from Frontier and AA (difference of appx. 40,000 passengers between AA'15+US'15 and AA'16)
For 2016 as a whole, domestic and total passengers finally broke 8 million again! First time since 2008 (8,151,488 passengers), but still shy of the record set in 2005 at 8,524,442 passengers.
Domestic growth was up 6.4%, with 8,436,124 combined domestic passengers flying through. G4 and WN biggest movers.
International growth was up 63.1%, with 75,835 combined international passengers flying through, driven by ZX (AC Express, +27%), DL (CUN), and G4 (PUJ).
In all, the passenger growth rose 6.4% with 8,511,959 people traveling through IND. For reference, air carrier operations went up 8.5% in 2016.

Other Notes: enplanements YOY up by 5.8%, deplanements YOY up 7.1%
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cleared2land
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:47 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
Congratulations to FWA as a 16-year-old passenger record is broken, even after the end of PHL:
http://fwairport.com/news/growth-contin ... rt-in-2016

727,896 combined pax traveled in and out of FWA in 2016. For reference purposes, there were 360,010 enplanements during the previous record year of 2000 and 365,884 last year. Growth is expected to continue in 2017, with DFW upgauged, CLT soon to be upgauged, potential for upgauges from DL, and probably some things that we don't know about yet.

Down I-69, IND is going to break a longtime record, too. Anyone from Indy care to share?



Although SBN will end 2016 about 60,000 combined pax behind FWA they have taken the 2nd Place spot from FWA with regard to freight and aircraft operations. FWA was always ahead of SBN for decades when it came to take-offs and landings, as well as cargo. I am surprised to see FWA's freight numbers down 25% (SBN is down 10%).

I expect SBN to end 2016 with about 660,000 pax. Anyone know what EVV's numbers are?
 
freakyrat
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:20 am

Delta is upguaging SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd qtr of 2017.
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:43 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Delta is upguaging SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd qtr of 2017.


Wouldn't be surprised if they do the same with FWA then or even sooner because AA is upgauging CLT next month and DL will need to respond.
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:09 pm

Well it seems the apocalypse is beginning and hell has frozen over:

...........2016.............2015.............Change
IND.....8,511,959.......7,998,086......6.4%
CLE....8,420,000.......8,100,073......3.9%*
PIT......8,309,754.......8,128,187......2.2%
CVG...6,773,905.......6,316,332......7.2%

* CLE only gave 8.42 million as their traffic numbers
 
jetskipper
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:43 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Delta is upguaging SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd qtr of 2017.


To mainline or dual class regional jets?
 
FWAERJ
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Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:16 pm

jetskipper wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Delta is upguaging SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd qtr of 2017.


To mainline or dual class regional jets?


Don't expect mainline at either SBN or FWA anytime soon. SkyWest has MX bases that can handle the CR7 and CR9 at both airports.
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