Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed May 24, 2017 3:56 pm

cleared2land wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
SBN has a new travel agency in place at the airport. No word on when the FIS will open.


As far as the customs facility goes it is very strange that the SBN GAF is allegedly open but there was no press release by the airport nor any mention of the facility being open on the CBP website. Leave it to our government to allow an airport to construct a customs facility and then it sits for 6 months with basically no use at all while government agencies drag their feet.


No NOTAM issued either.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed May 24, 2017 8:27 pm

freakyrat wrote:
cleared2land wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
SBN has a new travel agency in place at the airport. No word on when the FIS will open.


As far as the customs facility goes it is very strange that the SBN GAF is allegedly open but there was no press release by the airport nor any mention of the facility being open on the CBP website. Leave it to our government to allow an airport to construct a customs facility and then it sits for 6 months with basically no use at all while government agencies drag their feet.


No NOTAM issued either.


I wonder if it's the feds, the SJCAA, or both at fault here because something like this wouldn't have happened at FWA or IND.

I think both the FWACAA and the IAA are better run than the SJCAA. How else can you explain the fact that the "SBN-DFW is just around the corner" rumor has been floating around for 11 years and still no service? Or the fact that SBN under the current leadership fell for the JetAmerica scam? Or the Uber/Lyft ban put in place to protect the drivers of rustbucket taxis (yes, I have seen them) under the guise of passenger safety? And now, a travel agency in the terminal when most people use their laptops, phones, or tablets to book travel?
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed May 24, 2017 8:59 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
cleared2land wrote:

As far as the customs facility goes it is very strange that the SBN GAF is allegedly open but there was no press release by the airport nor any mention of the facility being open on the CBP website. Leave it to our government to allow an airport to construct a customs facility and then it sits for 6 months with basically no use at all while government agencies drag their feet.


No NOTAM issued either.


I wonder if it's the feds, the SJCAA, or both at fault here because something like this wouldn't have happened at FWA or IND.

I think both the FWACAA and the IAA are better run than the SJCAA. How else can you explain the fact that the "SBN-DFW is just around the corner" rumor has been floating around for 11 years and still no service? Or the fact that SBN under the current leadership fell for the JetAmerica scam? Or the Uber/Lyft ban put in place to protect the drivers of rustbucket taxis (yes, I have seen them) under the guise of passenger safety? And now, a travel agency in the terminal when most people use their laptops, phones, or tablets to book travel?



Wow. Let's slow down a bit . :white: The JetAmerica scam was under Schalliol's tenure, wasn't it? In any case the taxi issue is something that the city needs to address as well. There is no excuse to have rusty, nasty taxi service. IIRC AA didn't want to serve SBN because of "nearby" stations that had AA service, AZO/ORD/FWA to name a few. In addition, I think AA wanted to bring back ORD service at one point but due to the massive delays at ORD the offer was declined by SBN in hopes that DFW or CLT would be offered instead. But come on. Let's not try to rate the governing bodies against each other. Who knows what they are up against with the airlines. Remember that FWA has a few things going for it that really benefit AA service: they are far enough away from AA hubs and the greater Fort Wayne marketplace has some good business. SBN is just so close to ORD that it works against them. BUT, your core vibe is valid: SBN has been VERY stagnant with the exception of UA to EWR.

As far as the customs facility goes I heard it is down to the USDA. Apparently finding ways to dispose of banned food stuffs and garbage is a difficult task.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed May 24, 2017 11:36 pm

cleared2land wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

No NOTAM issued either.


I wonder if it's the feds, the SJCAA, or both at fault here because something like this wouldn't have happened at FWA or IND.

I think both the FWACAA and the IAA are better run than the SJCAA. How else can you explain the fact that the "SBN-DFW is just around the corner" rumor has been floating around for 11 years and still no service? Or the fact that SBN under the current leadership fell for the JetAmerica scam? Or the Uber/Lyft ban put in place to protect the drivers of rustbucket taxis (yes, I have seen them) under the guise of passenger safety? And now, a travel agency in the terminal when most people use their laptops, phones, or tablets to book travel?



Wow. Let's slow down a bit . :white: The JetAmerica scam was under Schalliol's tenure, wasn't it? In any case the taxi issue is something that the city needs to address as well. There is no excuse to have rusty, nasty taxi service. IIRC AA didn't want to serve SBN because of "nearby" stations that had AA service, AZO/ORD/FWA to name a few. In addition, I think AA wanted to bring back ORD service at one point but due to the massive delays at ORD the offer was declined by SBN in hopes that DFW or CLT would be offered instead. But come on. Let's not try to rate the governing bodies against each other. Who knows what they are up against with the airlines. Remember that FWA has a few things going for it that really benefit AA service: they are far enough away from AA hubs and the greater Fort Wayne marketplace has some good business. SBN is just so close to ORD that it works against them. BUT, your core vibe is valid: SBN has been VERY stagnant with the exception of UA to EWR.

As far as the customs facility goes I heard it is down to the USDA. Apparently finding ways to dispose of banned food stuffs and garbage is a difficult task.


Yeah, JetAmerica was under Schalliol in 2009 - Daigle joined in 2012 from LAN. Should've looked it up. But I do remember some of the scuttlebutt of a conflict between AA and the SJCAA - AA wanted to start SBN-ORD, but SBN wanted DFW (this was around 2008, long before the US merger, so CLT wasn't an option unless you wanted to talk with PHX in addition to DFW).

You're right about governing bodies against the airlines - there's a lot of insider stuff going on there. I'm glad you agree with me on the taxi issue. And you're right about SBN being stagnant aside from EWR, with the close proximity to Chicago airports making things much worse. FWA keeps 10 more share points of its local market than SBN does - at one time, it was the inverse. And if a ULCC (F9?) enters GYY with a presence sized for Chicagoland (G4's brief stint wasn't enough for the market, and the package sales model didn't work because most in NW Indiana that go to Orlando have timeshares), the leakage could get worse.

Do I think SBN can recover? Yes. When I moved here, FWA was losing 50% of its pax to IND and 70% overall - and that's a much longer drive than South Bend to ORD and MDW. Today, FWA keeps 50% of its pax and the IND share of the Fort Wayne market is down to 30%. Much like FWA had to do for a few years against IND, SBN will have to play hardball with the Chicago airports until leakage levels get to the point where each airport can focus on its own area. Maybe the IEDC money will help SBN out. Remember, they compete with FWA for the ortho industry in Warsaw, and much of that traffic goes to Texas - Zimmer Biomet, for one, has an enormous presence in AUS. Because of that, DFW should have happened by now, but FWA-DFW is now double-daily CR9s with a lot of passengers from the ortho sector. If SBN-DFW starts, a ER4 or CR2 at launch just won't cut it.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 1:29 am

cleared2land wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

As far as the customs facility goes I heard it is down to the USDA. Apparently finding ways to dispose of banned food stuffs and garbage is a difficult task.


I got on Custom's and the USDA's butt on their respective Facebook pages for all the delays in completing their paperwork to get the U.S.Customs facilty open. I also got on Rep. Jackie Walorski and Sen. Joe Donnely's case about it.
Last edited by freakyrat on Thu May 25, 2017 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 1:41 am

In terms of SBN passengers AUS/SAT is the #3 business market with the NYC area #1 and DFW area #2. Leisure markets #1 is SFB/MCO and #2 is probably LAS but could be PGD/RSW. SBN is working with G4 on seasonal service to MYR as they are getting a lot of requests for the service. I think their priorities have sort of shifted to try to get SBN-DEN going again with UA for better westbound connections and UA under Munoz is adding more DEN flights.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 1:49 am

cleared2land wrote:


As far as the customs facility goes I heard it is down to the USDA. Apparently finding ways to dispose of banned food stuffs and garbage is a difficult task.


How hard is that. Just put a dumpster out back and trash it. I suppose the dumpster would have to have certain specs and be ADA compliant.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 2:02 am

[quote="FWAERJ"
SBN will have to play hardball with the Chicago airports until leakage levels get to the point where each airport can focus on its own area. Maybe the IEDC money will help SBN out. Remember, they compete with FWA for the ortho industry in Warsaw, and much of that traffic goes to Texas - Zimmer Biomet, for one, has an enormous presence in AUS. Because of that, DFW should have happened by now, but FWA-DFW is now double-daily CR9s with a lot of passengers from the ortho sector. If SBN-DFW starts, a ER4 or CR2 at launch just won't cut it.[/quote]

SBN is already doing it somewhat, actually Delta in SBN is matching Southwest's fares out of MDW on markets such as DFW/DAL and possibly some others.

If last weekend's Notre Dame and St. Mary's graduation was any indication Delta can already go to larger jets on SBN-ATL flights. The pickup flights out of SBN on Sunday that were operated with B717 mainline aircraft were full as well as were the regular CRJ flights.
However the Sunday inbound flight to SBN from ATL on the 717 had over 85 passengers on a 110 passenger jet and even had the whole First Class section full. Delta probably has the same problem on FWA-ATL not enough seats. I'll bet as soon as they can get some bigger two/class RJ's online and have crews for them SBN and FWA will go all CRJ9 to ATL and return.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 2:27 am

freakyrat wrote:
cleared2land wrote:


As far as the customs facility goes I heard it is down to the USDA. Apparently finding ways to dispose of banned food stuffs and garbage is a difficult task.


How hard is that. Just put a dumpster out back and trash it. I suppose the dumpster would have to have certain specs and be ADA compliant.


USDA rules require that foodstuffs and all waste on flights from foreign countries be incinerated a la medical waste because of the banned food/product issues. Maybe there isn't a decent incineration facility in the area.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 1:06 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
cleared2land wrote:


As far as the customs facility goes I heard it is down to the USDA. Apparently finding ways to dispose of banned food stuffs and garbage is a difficult task.


How hard is that. Just put a dumpster out back and trash it. I suppose the dumpster would have to have certain specs and be ADA compliant.


USDA rules require that foodstuffs and all waste on flights from foreign countries be incinerated a la medical waste because of the banned food/product issues. Maybe there isn't a decent incineration facility in the area.


Correct. I thought that there were incineration facilities as part of the build-out already. I might be wrong. Whatever it is I don't understand why it is still 6 months since construction ended and it still isn't open. It isn't like this whole process snuck up on anyone........but then again, it is our government :banghead:
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 1:10 pm

So the new Pet Relief Area that SBN showed off to the press yesterday is accessed by the Gate 4 doorway. I personally would have used the Gate 1 doorway. Even though I question the location of it, and the artificial turf (which almost all airports use for this purpose), I do like the fact that it is outside. Most airport have them inside and they are very small.

Nice to see this. Does FWA or EVV have Pet Relief areas as well?
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu May 25, 2017 3:00 pm

FWA has opened their Pet Relief area as well in an old bathroom. The room is not only a Pet Relief area but also is a handicap bathroom. Room has a hose for washing down area after the pet goes and also has human handwashing station. Located by gates 1-4
 
User avatar
atypical
Topic Author
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun May 28, 2017 12:20 am

freakyrat wrote:
For those suggesting that Norwegian could serve SBN as an alternate airport for ORD from their bases at Dublin and Shannon, they will not need the FIS at SBN as they will have in place U.S. Customs preclearance facilities at both Irish airports.
http://atwonline.com/security/norwegian ... eclearance


From my understanding FIS stations are required even with preclearance. From dhs.gov:

"CBP officers do, however, retain the authority to inspect passengers and their accompanying goods or baggage after arriving in the United States."

This cannot be done without an FIS station unless I am missing something.
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun May 28, 2017 5:42 pm

atypical wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
For those suggesting that Norwegian could serve SBN as an alternate airport for ORD from their bases at Dublin and Shannon, they will not need the FIS at SBN as they will have in place U.S. Customs preclearance facilities at both Irish airports.
http://atwonline.com/security/norwegian ... eclearance


From my understanding FIS stations are required even with preclearance. From dhs.gov:

"CBP officers do, however, retain the authority to inspect passengers and their accompanying goods or baggage after arriving in the United States."

This cannot be done without an FIS station unless I am missing something.



You are correct. Even with flights from pre-clearance airports you still have to have CBP staff in some capacity. I don't know all of the details but it is what it is.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:26 pm

Here is the article about the U.S. Customs facility at SBN and the regulated garbage issue.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/bu ... f0097.html
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:20 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Here is the article about the U.S. Customs facility at SBN and the regulated garbage issue.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/bu ... f0097.html


Nice article I'm sure that the General Aviation Facility would get used if an FAA NOTAM was issued as to the operating hours, phone numbers etc. and any other detail, but to my knowledge none was ever issued and there is nothing published in the FAA Airport Facility Directory either.
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:02 pm

freakyrat wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Here is the article about the U.S. Customs facility at SBN and the regulated garbage issue.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/bu ... f0097.html


Nice article I'm sure that the General Aviation Facility would get used if an FAA NOTAM was issued as to the operating hours, phone numbers etc. and any other detail, but to my knowledge none was ever issued and there is nothing published in the FAA Airport Facility Directory either.



I think the garbage is one of the reasons why even pre-clearance flights still have to land at US Customs-staffed airports. Someone has to make sure that the garbage is processed properly and also that the paperwork is processed. I'm sure that there is more to it than that but it's all I can think of.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:53 am

Received an update from the South Bend International Airport today. The opening of the U.S. Customs GAF is not a NOTAM item as it has no expiration time. All the particulars for Customs will be published in the Sept. 17th AFD.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:26 pm

Since I broached the subject with SBN airport management they finally did issue a NOTAM on the availability of Customs. Here it is:
!SBN 06/035 (KSBN A0934/17) SBN AD AP CUST OPN MON-FRI 1300-2100 OTHER TIMES PPR 574-232-9650 1706191446-PERM

So now the world of GA knows now.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:13 am

I was in SBN this weekend. As far as projects go, the air carrier ramp rebuild will cost close to 3 million dollars and is still a priority project.
Outside of using the old Gate 3 for their operation, Delta wants to bring mainline back to SBN for some of the flights especially ATL. The reason being all ATL CRJ flights are operating at capacity with no room for non revs and are always oversold. The only thing holding them back is the slope of the ramp in the Delta gate area. Once the air carrier ramp is leveled out mainline flights will return with the B717.

DGS at SBN was approached by Delta about 5 yrs ago and asked to submit an RFP for working a SBN-JFK flight. No word on if Delta will start service to JFK yet.

FIS at SBN is being delayed because of the incineration issue with garbage and USDA approval. One of the airlines at SBN was testing the facility and overloaded the incinerator causing it to break. It has to be repaired before USDA will give their approval for international air carrier flights.

South Shore had a public meeting Friday attended by a bunch of upset homeowners in regards to relocating the tracks and station to the west side of the terminal.

Nothing more to report.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:41 pm

SBN Air Carrier ramp rebuild is scheduled to begin in 2018 with completion for early 2019.

All these project including all South Shore rail enhancement projects will be completed at the same time.

Early 2019 is about the same time DY gets its new Airbus A321LR jets.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:26 am

A little bit of news about DL upgauging FWA-ATL:

The FWACAA is in talks with DL to do it given high loads and yields that are making the CR2 inadequate, and likely because AA upgauged FWA-CLT to the CR7. But don't hold your breath for mainline: it's a given that SkyWest would continue to operate FWA-ATL even with upgauging because of the need to ferry planes to FWA for RON MX, and the SkyWest MX base at FWA is growing. (The latter is why SkyWest now operates FWA-ORD for both UA and AA.)
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:59 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
A little bit of news about DL upgauging FWA-ATL:

The FWACAA is in talks with DL to do it given high loads and yields that are making the CR2 inadequate, and likely because AA upgauged FWA-CLT to the CR7. But don't hold your breath for mainline: it's a given that SkyWest would continue to operate FWA-ATL even with upgauging because of the need to ferry planes to FWA for RON MX, and the SkyWest MX base at FWA is growing. (The latter is why SkyWest now operates FWA-ORD for both UA and AA.)


Same thing a bit for SBN. While I was waiting for my flight to MSP on DL last Saturday, the inbound aircraft landed at SBN, parked between gates 5 and 6, used the Gate 6 jetbridge and went in for maintenance. A CRJ2 that had finished it's maintenance was taxiied from the Skywest maintenance hangar which is east of the terminal building and brought up on gate 5. Skywest had a crew to take us to MSP and the inbound crew deadheaded back. Everything went like clockwork even to the point were Skywest borrowed a two tractor from UA to push us off the gate on time.

On a side note Skywest at the time had a CRJ700 in for maintenance. SBN maintenace base is busy also.

DL is going to upguage SBN-ATL flights in the 3rd qtr. DGS folks want 717's in SBN for the ATl flights but do not know if that is going to happen because of the Skywest maintenace base. Also it kind of depends what carrier is operating the 700 and 900's out of ATL. Skywest has 700's in ATL Endeavor has the 900's and 200's.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:35 pm

Enplanements have been off about 4-5 percent at both SBN and FWA over the past few months but it all seems to be in South Bend's case with Allegiant. Their load factors at SBN have been off about 3 percent. They used to have load factors about 95% on mostly all their flights. They are now averaging load factors of 92%. Delta is going great guns though with high load factors and yields on all their flights and United probably isn't that far behind. I feel the problem with Allegiant is their service consistentcy and the reliability of their MD80 fleet which should be alleviated when they go to an all Airbus product. The only MD80 flights now at SBN go to SFB and LAS.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5435
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:45 am

http://www.nwitimes.com/business/local/ ... 24576.html

"Gary airport gets approval for U.S. Customs facility"
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:00 am

Midwestindy wrote:
http://www.nwitimes.com/business/local/gary-airport-gets-approval-for-u-s-customs-facility/article_a492efa6-e66f-5842-99ac-c8da17824576.html

"Gary airport gets approval for U.S. Customs facility"


SBN's General Aviation Customs facility is open for business. The facility for air carriers is awaiting final approval from USDA. Seems like one of the airlines operating at SBN had some employees overstuff the incineration facility and broke it so they have to have that fixed.
 
MichianaOrthx
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:19 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:59 pm

Gary has amazing potential as Chicago's true tertiary airport, but no one has bothered to capitalize on it yet. Even when Allegiant had a presence in 2013, I recall them only operating 2x flights per week to Orlando Sanford, it is like they didn't put any effort into developing Gary as a viable airport. The demand is there, but nobody is stepping up to tackle it.
 
jetskipper
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:59 pm

https://www.ilnews.org/news/statewide/u ... 024d4.html

An article from an Illinois newspaper makes the unsubstantiated claim that smaller Illinois airports (BMI, SPI, PIA) could see mailing UA aircraft with the new rebanking of ORD. I wonder if this could mean the return of UA mainline to FWA and SBN, perhaps if only for the RONs. It's been 35 years since either saw UA mainline.
 
MichianaOrthx
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:19 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:39 pm

jetskipper wrote:
https://www.ilnews.org/news/statewide/united-scheduling-shakeup-could-mean-larger-jets-at-illinois-regional/article_3efd0b06-792d-11e7-9fc5-4bbcf9e024d4.html

An article from an Illinois newspaper makes the unsubstantiated claim that smaller Illinois airports (BMI, SPI, PIA) could see mailing UA aircraft with the new rebanking of ORD. I wonder if this could mean the return of UA mainline to FWA and SBN, perhaps if only for the RONs. It's been 35 years since either saw UA mainline.


UA is about the only carrier to see any growth at FWA, but it still lags behind the other carriers. SBN would not surprise me due to the presence of Notre Dame. I would imagine that a significant number of people fly from across the country to SBN just to visit Notre Dame, if UA introduced a few mainline flights it would help with connections at ORD. Most SBN - ORD flights use terminal 2 at ORD, but if there were mainline service that would switch to terminal 1. If nothing else, then perhaps their might be some seasonal mainline service to SBN during Notre Dame football season.
 
jetskipper
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:42 pm

It's interesting that Delta is really the only airlines to capitalize on college athletics. SBN sees mainline DL to ATL, MSP, DTW and LGA on game weekends. UA usually doesn't adjust the schedules at all. Seems like a lost money opportunity when usually the weekends have spare planes not being utilized.
 
MichianaOrthx
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:19 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:55 pm

jetskipper wrote:
It's interesting that Delta is really the only airlines to capitalize on college athletics. SBN sees mainline DL to ATL, MSP, DTW and LGA on game weekends. UA usually doesn't adjust the schedules at all. Seems like a lost money opportunity when usually the weekends have spare planes not being utilized.


Agreed completely. If Delta sees enough demand to fly B757s into SBN on football weekends from places like ATL and MSP, then you woukd think that UA would see the logic in offering similar service from ORD. West Suburban and North Suburban Chicago arguably have more Notre Dame graduates than anywhere else in the country, so the demand is likely strong and waiting to be fulfilled.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:03 pm

Delta is very close to bringing mainline back to SBN for the ATL morning flight. I'm real suprised that United hasn't brought 737's in during Notre Dame football weekends. Seems like they are leaving a lot of money on the table. Also with F9 taking 4.5 million dollars gross out of SBN on their 9 months of DEN flights using A319's and flying 21,000 plus passengers both ways for a total 0f 42,000 passengers 3 times a week that UA hasn''t tried to take this on with 737's.

SBN's main parking ramp will get a major rebuild starting next year which should make mainline an easier deal at all gates as the pavement will be leveled out which would gain them some jetway sill height.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:53 am

MichianaOrthx wrote:
jetskipper wrote:
It's interesting that Delta is really the only airlines to capitalize on college athletics. SBN sees mainline DL to ATL, MSP, DTW and LGA on game weekends. UA usually doesn't adjust the schedules at all. Seems like a lost money opportunity when usually the weekends have spare planes not being utilized.


Agreed completely. If Delta sees enough demand to fly B757s into SBN on football weekends from places like ATL and MSP, then you woukd think that UA would see the logic in offering similar service from ORD. West Suburban and North Suburban Chicago arguably have more Notre Dame graduates than anywhere else in the country, so the demand is likely strong and waiting to be fulfilled.


Delta is using Airbus A320 and B717 aircraft in SBN for most flights on Notre Dame Football Weekends. Delta also flies these aircraft into SBN from all three huibs during Notre Dame Commencement Weekend.
 
SmithAir747
Posts: 1906
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:30 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:55 pm

Could the convenience, larger choice of flights and airlines, etc. at IND eventually "kill off" FWA air traffic?

This year I've found it more convenient, more affordable, etc. to fly nonstop on WN to IND than fly via connections to FWA (even though FWA is my old hometown to which I travel to visit family), with no fees on WN vs. the fee-happy majors and the comfy 737s of WN into IND compared to the cramped "Barbie jets" of the airlines that go to FWA. Even with the rental car I get from IND to drive to FWA and back, the flights I've taken to IND are still a bit cheaper than those going to FWA. Read my experiences in the "Indianapolis Aviation" thread and you'll see what I mean.

If enough travellers choose IND over FWA for their flights (for those going into or out of FW/northeast Indiana), could that lead to IND "killing" FWA? And, if there eventually comes the opportunity to go nonstop IND-London, instead of flying from FWA-xxx-London, could that also drive a nail into FWA's coffin? Or will FWA continue to hold its own as the tri-state regional airport? What would affect the viability of continuing and future FWA air service, as long as it remains an RJ-only airport?

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:31 am

SmithAir747 wrote:
Could the convenience, larger choice of flights and airlines, etc. at IND eventually "kill off" FWA air traffic?

This year I've found it more convenient, more affordable, etc. to fly nonstop on WN to IND than fly via connections to FWA (even though FWA is my old hometown to which I travel to visit family), with no fees on WN vs. the fee-happy majors and the comfy 737s of WN into IND compared to the cramped "Barbie jets" of the airlines that go to FWA. Even with the rental car I get from IND to drive to FWA and back, the flights I've taken to IND are still a bit cheaper than those going to FWA. Read my experiences in the "Indianapolis Aviation" thread and you'll see what I mean.

If enough travellers choose IND over FWA for their flights (for those going into or out of FW/northeast Indiana), could that lead to IND "killing" FWA? And, if there eventually comes the opportunity to go nonstop IND-London, instead of flying from FWA-xxx-London, could that also drive a nail into FWA's coffin? Or will FWA continue to hold its own as the tri-state regional airport? What would affect the viability of continuing and future FWA air service, as long as it remains an RJ-only airport?

SmithAir747


Ten years ago, when FWA had only 35% of the market, the air service director at FWA was actually pondering that question hard. Two-thirds of that other 65% chose IND even though IND did zero advertising in Fort Wayne.

Today, FWA has half of the local market. Two-thirds of that other half still chooses IND. FWA traffic was at record levels in 2016 and should break that record again in 2017. The biggest holes from FWA are LAS and DEN, in that order, and the FWACAA is working with G4 to fix the former and UA for the latter.

To sum it up, FWA's share has gone up 15 share points while IND's has gone down ten share points. I mainly see converting others as a WN loyalty issue, not an RJ or nonstop issue. WN has very loyal customers in this market and in most other cities where they do and don't operate. People will go out of their way to fly WN.

G4 serves both airports and if FWA is an option, they'll choose it unless it's the very rare instance where IND is far cheaper. Most people in Fort Wayne that drive for a ULCC do it for NK out of DTW or ORD.

And finally, re: IND-LHR: Most people that want a nonstop flight to Europe here drive to ORD or DTW today. All IND-LHR would do is get the BA and AA loyalists from ORD to choose IND instead.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:40 pm

SBN in January is reactivating Gate 4 for Delta. Delta would like more room between gates. This is also most likely for the larger aircraft planned for the Atlanta flights. Looks like they will have to move the pet relief area. Ramp rebuild will probably start around the same time.

For Notre Dame Football weekends this year Delta will use a combination of B717/MD88/MD90 aircraft so they can fully utilize gates 5 and 6 with no jetbridge issues complying with ADA requirements. If they bring back the Busses they have to be parked at Gates 3 and 9 which is too much of a hassle. On a side note, if they take the slope out of the ramp they can legally park A320 aircraft on 5 and 6 and will not have that much of an issue with the upward slope of the jetbridges that they have now. The UA gate 8 is only about 6 inches out of ADA compliance for parking A320 aircraft now as the ramp slopes downhill towards this gate. Kind of crazy but the whole issue should be fixed with the ramp rebuild.
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:32 am

SmithAir747 wrote:
Could the convenience, larger choice of flights and airlines, etc. at IND eventually "kill off" FWA air traffic?

This year I've found it more convenient, more affordable, etc. to fly nonstop on WN to IND than fly via connections to FWA (even though FWA is my old hometown to which I travel to visit family), with no fees on WN vs. the fee-happy majors and the comfy 737s of WN into IND compared to the cramped "Barbie jets" of the airlines that go to FWA. Even with the rental car I get from IND to drive to FWA and back, the flights I've taken to IND are still a bit cheaper than those going to FWA. Read my experiences in the "Indianapolis Aviation" thread and you'll see what I mean.

If enough travellers choose IND over FWA for their flights (for those going into or out of FW/northeast Indiana), could that lead to IND "killing" FWA? And, if there eventually comes the opportunity to go nonstop IND-London, instead of flying from FWA-xxx-London, could that also drive a nail into FWA's coffin? Or will FWA continue to hold its own as the tri-state regional airport? What would affect the viability of continuing and future FWA air service, as long as it remains an RJ-only airport?

SmithAir747


Same experience with IND over EVV, and Evansville is only 30-45 min. longer drive from Indy than Fort Wayne is (and at any rate, my parents live 30 miles north of Evansville) and that difference will only decrease as I-69 gets closer and closer to completion.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:57 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
Could the convenience, larger choice of flights and airlines, etc. at IND eventually "kill off" FWA air traffic?

This year I've found it more convenient, more affordable, etc. to fly nonstop on WN to IND than fly via connections to FWA (even though FWA is my old hometown to which I travel to visit family), with no fees on WN vs. the fee-happy majors and the comfy 737s of WN into IND compared to the cramped "Barbie jets" of the airlines that go to FWA. Even with the rental car I get from IND to drive to FWA and back, the flights I've taken to IND are still a bit cheaper than those going to FWA. Read my experiences in the "Indianapolis Aviation" thread and you'll see what I mean.

If enough travellers choose IND over FWA for their flights (for those going into or out of FW/northeast Indiana), could that lead to IND "killing" FWA? And, if there eventually comes the opportunity to go nonstop IND-London, instead of flying from FWA-xxx-London, could that also drive a nail into FWA's coffin? Or will FWA continue to hold its own as the tri-state regional airport? What would affect the viability of continuing and future FWA air service, as long as it remains an RJ-only airport?

SmithAir747


Same experience with IND over EVV, and Evansville is only 30-45 min. longer drive from Indy than Fort Wayne is (and at any rate, my parents live 30 miles north of Evansville) and that difference will only decrease as I-69 gets closer and closer to completion.


Traditionally, most of EVV's leakage went to SDF or STL, not IND. Now, sections 1 through 4 of I-69 are done and 5 is almost done (the last will open in 2020), which has sped up driving from Evansville to Indy even at its current state. And keep in mind that bridges to get to Louisville are now all toll bridges that cost $2 to $4 each way, whereas I-69 is toll-free all the way.

I'm sure these two factors are shifting EVV's primary leakage from SDF to IND. EVV seems to be reacting well, though, and I see more growth for G4 there - PIE and PGD are basically a given by now.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:47 pm

I have a correction to make to my previous post. SBN is not reactivating Gate 4 for Delta. Delta requested a change to the aircraft parking arrangement for Gates 5 and 6 to allow more wingtip clearance for parking mainline aircraft. So SBN is moving the aircraft parking for Gate 5 15ft to the west from where it is now. The Gate 5 jetbridge will be angled and rolled west accordingly. New painlines will also be done. This is a permanent change.

This Notre Dame Football Season Delta will be using a combination of B717 and MD88 aircraft. This relieves any and all ADA jetbridge slope compliance issues for Gates 5 and 6.

With all these changes I have a suspicion that Delta has plans to operate mainline B717 aircraft in SBN for the ATL flights come next year irregardless of Skywest having the maintenance base there.

The main apron slope issues etc. will all be taken care of with the ramp reconstruction slated to begin early next year.

In regard to US Customs. The airport is still working on the trash incineration issues and hope to have that resolved shortly. The GAF is open and Customs has already cleared about a dozen flights. They should be very busy this Football season. SBN expects to clear about 50 flights before the end of the year. The Customs officer is permanently assigned to SBN and lives in South Bend.

Rumor has it that another European low cost carrier is interested in SBN besides the speculation about Norwegian that has been previously written about.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5435
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:38 pm

Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
adam47150
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:31 pm

FWAERJ wrote:

And keep in mind that bridges to get to Louisville are now all toll bridges that cost $2 to $4 each way, whereas I-69 is toll-free all the way.


Just a minor clarification. The I-64 bridge across the Ohio River remains toll free as does the HWY 31 bridge, aka the Second Street or Clark Memorial Bridge.

I live in New Albany and the office I am based out of is in downtown Louisville.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:01 pm

I found a little nugget in FWA's request for proposal for an ad agency to market the airport. (Asher Agency has been their agency for the past decade.) Turns out that FWA keeps 65% of the passengers in its market (read: 35% go to other airports), which is shockingly high for a small airport with significant competition. FWIW, SBN keeps 40% of its market, though Warsaw overlaps with FWA (and is the only point where the two airports compete).

I remember when the numbers were flipped the other way around and 65% here drove to other airports with two-thirds of that going to IND alone. Very impressive. With limited room to boost numbers, I see only two hubs (DCA and DEN) and additional Allegiant service (LAS and SAV at the top of the list) in the near future. If FWA adds a FIS like SBN is adding, I could also see CUN and MBJ.

Source: https://fwairport.com/uploads/sbp/2124/ ... he_rfp.pdf
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:03 pm

Also, should FWA get FIS, I could see DY or WW trying the airport. Like SBN’s pursuit of DY, FWA has experience with less than daily leisure ULCC service by way of G4.

I know people would luv WN here, but there simply isn’t terminal room at peak hours, and the only initial stations that could make sense from FWA are BWI and DEN.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5435
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:56 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
I found a little nugget in FWA's request for proposal for an ad agency to market the airport. (Asher Agency has been their agency for the past decade.) Turns out that FWA keeps 65% of the passengers in its market (read: 35% go to other airports), which is shockingly high for a small airport with significant competition. FWIW, SBN keeps 40% of its market, though Warsaw overlaps with FWA (and is the only point where the two airports compete).

I remember when the numbers were flipped the other way around and 65% here drove to other airports with two-thirds of that going to IND alone. Very impressive. With limited room to boost numbers, I see only two hubs (DCA and DEN) and additional Allegiant service (LAS and SAV at the top of the list) in the near future. If FWA adds a FIS like SBN is adding, I could also see CUN and MBJ.

Source: https://fwairport.com/uploads/sbp/2124/ ... he_rfp.pdf


I'd like to see F9 try out FWA-DEN, stimulate the pax, and then have UA maybe come in and run an e175. DCA will be a little bit of struggle, because of the slot constraints. LAS is a gimmee on G4, so I expect that to come in the near future, with SAV and JAX likely as well.

FWAERJ wrote:
Also, should FWA get FIS, I could see DY or WW trying the airport. Like SBN’s pursuit of DY, FWA has experience with less than daily leisure ULCC service by way of G4.

I know people would luv WN here, but there simply isn’t terminal room at peak hours, and the only initial stations that could make sense from FWA are BWI and DEN.


The only way (in the near future) I would see FWA using a FIS would be if G4 adds CUN service, but then again G4 hasn't even added international flights from SFB or PIE yet, so that probably won't be for a while either. DY/D8 and WW aren't very likely for FWA or SBN in the foreseeable future IMO.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
SmithAir747
Posts: 1906
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:30 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:16 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
Also, should FWA get FIS, I could see DY or WW trying the airport. Like SBN’s pursuit of DY, FWA has experience with less than daily leisure ULCC service by way of G4.

I know people would luv WN here, but there simply isn’t terminal room at peak hours, and the only initial stations that could make sense from FWA are BWI and DEN.


I live in Denver at the moment, and would love a nonstop WN service to FWA from DEN! I go home to Fort Wayne at least once a year (or more often now) for family reasons as my family are still there. I have historically flown from whatever city I live in through a major hub, then an RJ to FWA, which gets tiresome and often leads to delays and cancellations especially at ORD. This summer I have flown nonstop WN from DEN to IND (and then driven up to Fort Wayne), rather than deal with the connections and RJ-only service to FWA. However I doubt that we will see WN 737s serving FWA, when all other major carriers only use RJs there and the only large jets are the holidaymaker airline G4's planes.

I don't think FWA is big enough a market to have DY or WW or other transatlantic LCCs serve it though. However, if they did surprise us with a service to FWA, what aircraft types do you think they might use? A321LR type planes (more likely), or 787/A330?

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
upgrademe2First
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:14 am

I'm fairly certain that FWA will not be getting European service anytime soon, there simply isn't enough demand in the market. SWF, PVD, BDL are much larger markets in between huge metropolitan areas (BOS, NYC) Plus, these areas already have demand for European travel. It doesn't matter if FWA gets FIS or not, WW and DY would not seriously look at FWA. I hope I'm wrong but probably not. Cancun, yes, additional markets in Florida, yes. Las Vegas, of course, and they should have it again by now. Europe...not even close.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that FWA (my former home) gets a flight to DEN (my current home).There is no logical way to connect westward out of FWA (MSP, too far north, DFW, too far south) I also take the nonstop to IND to avoid RJ. Someone like Sun Country coming in starting a flight to CUN or MBJ makes much more. If Allegiant flew international, that would make sense as well.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:18 am

Midwestindy wrote:
DY/D8 and WW aren't very likely for FWA or SBN in the foreseeable future IMO.


As has been stated here, DY is seriously considering SBN-DUB when the A321LR joins the fleet - Notre Dame actually has a big presence in Dublin.

For FWA, WW would probably be the better bet because of connections, but that's just as dependent on getting an FIS as something as simple as a flight to CUN. I don't think there's one European city that stands out more than anything else for FWA. Then again, everyone was expecting IND-LHR because of Rolls and the like, yet we got IND-CDG instead (a key reason: to get CFM LEAP parts to and from LAF)...
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5435
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:44 am

FWAERJ wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
DY/D8 and WW aren't very likely for FWA or SBN in the foreseeable future IMO.


As has been stated here, DY is seriously considering SBN-DUB when the A321LR joins the fleet - Notre Dame actually has a big presence in Dublin.

For FWA, WW would probably be the better bet because of connections, but that's just as dependent on getting an FIS as something as simple as a flight to CUN. I don't think there's one European city that stands out more than anything else for FWA. Then again, everyone was expecting IND-LHR because of Rolls and the like, yet we got IND-CDG instead (a key reason: to get CFM LEAP parts to and from LAF)...


As much as I would love to see the SBN-DUB or FWA-Europe flight happen, it just isn't likely in the near future. Notre Dame having a big presence in Dublin is not going to move the needle either. WW would be better, but as I mentioned WW isn't likely in the near future either. There are just too many other bigger opportunities for both airlines elsewhere.

Can you please repost the link about DY though.

I'd much rather see FWA secure flights to DEN, LAX, WAS, FLL, PHL, e.t.c before the focus is turned towards INT'L service.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
jetskipper
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:16 am

FWAERJ wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
DY/D8 and WW aren't very likely for FWA or SBN in the foreseeable future IMO.


As has been stated here, DY is seriously considering SBN-DUB when the A321LR joins the fleet - Notre Dame actually has a big presence in Dublin.

For FWA, WW would probably be the better bet because of connections, but that's just as dependent on getting an FIS as something as simple as a flight to CUN. I don't think there's one European city that stands out more than anything else for FWA. Then again, everyone was expecting IND-LHR because of Rolls and the like, yet we got IND-CDG instead (a key reason: to get CFM LEAP parts to and from LAF)...


Although I would love the novalty of a LCC flying to Europe from SBN or FWA, I can't ever see it coming to fruition. There are large cities such as Milwaukee and Columbus that don't have Europe service, nor do medium sized cites in the imidiate area such as Dayton, Grand Rapids and Madison or Cancun for that matter. SBN and FWA can't support mainline service domestically, there is no way they are getting Europe flights, I think even vacation hot spots such as Cancun and Punta Cana would be a long shot.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana Aviation: Part 16

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:16 am

[quote="Midwestindy]

I'd much rather see FWA secure flights to DEN, LAX, WAS, FLL, PHL, e.t.c before the focus is turned towards INT'L service.[/quote]

DEN is only a matter of time with the OO MX base and high local demand. Either a CR7 or E175 would work, but the E175 would have room for skis in the belly and a more comfortable ride that is superior to even a WN 737.

LAX could work one of two ways: a OO E175 for UA/DL or a G4 Airbus. Probably the former because business travel to the area is strong.

DCA has the best potential for DC from FWA, even with slots at DCA. AA is so strong on both ends, FWA sees significant travel there, and DCA is the favorite airport here.

FLL was tried by G4. Didn’t work because locals prefer the Gulf Coast of Florida and Orlando theme parks. For those reasons, VPS is more likely.

PHL was tried by AA. Ate up half of the revenue guarantee, and CR2s were 56% full even with Lincoln Financial, Comcast, and Wells Fargo buying seats every weekday. Won’t return for those reasons.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: amdiesen, Avgeek21, Chugach, cs03, csizmpl, deltacto, dstblj52, Google Adsense [Bot], jomur, PM, qf789, Roots1, SirMS, slinky09, speedbird30, trent768, usflyer msp, VCVSpotter, Wingtips56, Yeastbeast and 156 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos