nitepilot79
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Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:51 am

First: RIP to the victims. From the looks of the footage, the parachute didn't, or wasn't deployed. I think that's a first for a Cirrus aircraft...

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/06...from-the-sky-orig-vstan-dlewis.cnn

Article quote and link from a different source:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...uston-plane-crash-killed-3-n590076

"A small single engine plane was making an undirected pass at a Houston area airport Thursday when the aircraft apparently went into a spin and crashed, killing all three people on board, an accident investigator said Friday.

The plane, a Cirrus SR-20, was equipped with a parachute but it did not deploy before the 1 p.m. crash in a parking lot near Hobby Airport, National Transportation Safety Board investigator Tom Latson told reporters."
 
rfields5421
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:08 am

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
From the looks of the footage, the parachute didn't, or wasn't deployed. I think that's a first for a Cirrus aircraft...

Most Cirrus fatal crashes have occurred without parachute deployment. It was several years after the introduction of the aircraft/ system before there was a successful deployment which saved the pilot's life. A reason that investigators and a few survivors gave for not deploying the parachute was the pilot was trying to save the aircraft and did not want it destroyed. Because deployment of the parachute will result in a destroyed airframe. Even if the lives of the pilot and passengers are saved.

Several other Cirrus aircraft have crashed with fatal results after parachute deployment. Analysis has shown that the parachutes were deployed outside the safe deployment envelope. Again, trying to save the aircraft rather than using the parachute when it was available/ within the safe deployment envelope was a cited reason for the deaths.

---------------------

The news I've seen from Houston stations says the aircraft went down on after its third go around. The ATC had waved off the pilot at HOU on two landing attempts because the aircraft was too high to make the runway safely. On the third landing attempt, the pilot told ATC she was going around to try again.

There is some discrepancy about the pilot's qualifications/ experience. A records check shows a PPL issued in 2014, but friends say she was then pilot of the family company owned aircraft since 2012.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:23 am

The parachute deployment itself doesn't damage the aircraft, it's the hard landing after that. But it's not a given, several have been repaired.

Like most crashes of GA airplanes the pilot is the cause, if you're screwing up your flying then you're likely to not realize you should quit and deploy that parachute.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:24 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
The news I've seen from Houston stations says the aircraft went down on after its third go around. The ATC had waved off the pilot at HOU on two landing attempts because the aircraft was too high to make the runway safely. On the third landing attempt, the pilot told ATC she was going around to try again.

There is some discrepancy about the pilot's qualifications/ experience. A records check shows a PPL issued in 2014, but friends say she was then pilot of the family company owned aircraft since 2012.

Living just a stone's throw away from HOU, I listened to the ATC audio when it was released on Thursday. It basically sounded like a inexperienced private pilot who was in over her head in the busy Class B airspace:

- Lined up for a landing on Rwy 4 and then had to do a go-around.
- Asked by ATC to change to Rwy 35
- While circling around to Rwy 35, ATC asked if she would rather swing wide and come back to Rwy 4 behind incoming traffic
- Pilot sounds a little confused and ends up on approach to 35 but too high for landing
- ATC directs pilot to fly Rwy 35 heading and enter right pattern
- Pilot sounded audibly apologetic and embarrassed for the mistake
- On second attempt for Rwy 35 pilot again does go-around
- ATC asks pilot to enter a tight left turn and come back to Rwy 4. ATC observes pilot entering a dive and quickly shouts a command to "straighten-up."

If I had to guess, I bet the pilot was just frustrated and embarrassed about taking three attempts with so much other traffic around and entered the left turn too aggressively. The especially sad situation is that they were flying to visit a family member undergoing cancer treatment at the Houston Med Center. I can't help but thinking that they wouldn't have had the difficulties they did had they gone to SGR, AXH, LVJ, etc.  
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:31 am

No fire and no fuel at the crash site could be starvation also. Norman, OK to Houston would likely put the plane above bingo fuel I presume.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
rfields5421
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:39 am

Cirrus emphasizes that the parachute is a last measure to save lives, not save the aircraft. Yes, some have been repairable, but that is not a goal or an anticipation when the parachute is deployed.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
It basically sounded like a inexperienced private pilot who was in over her head in the busy Class B airspace:

I learned my flying at an airport under the DFW Class B wedding cake. One of my first TNGs was on a runway parallel to a B767 landing at AFW. My first solo landing was following a Citation X, with a B727 behind me on a single runway airport. It was get in, get down and get out of the way. But it was very useful from the start being aware of different aircraft types, different speeds and that I could not take a 'long time' getting lined up and landing.

As I got farther along, my instructors made sure that I did landings at DAL, first with the instructor, then later some solos. They felt that if I was going to fly around the DFW area, I danged better be able to handle the demands of a busy airspace. As my medical issues got worse, I never got to fly into the Houston area in the cockpit.

I've talked to many a pilot who made a first flight into a DFW area GA airport, and I guess the mix of aircraft, multiple ATC interactions can be quite intimidating. I've heard it compared to hitting the busy freeways at rush hour coming from a rural two lane driving experience.

I've also listened to the ATC tape, and the controllers are being very patient and understanding. Such a pilot is something they see several times a month.

HOU has a lot of facilities for a visiting pilot, but I agree one of the GA focused airports would have been a better choice.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:56 am

The pilot and her husband are the parents of my sister's husband. Obviously very tragic news for the family. I have met all involved, and had several conversations with the pilot regarding flying.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:02 am

Maybe a sharp left turn coupled with full power torque on the go around caused the plane to bank too far, then a left wing stall into a spin? That's happened a couple times before with cirrus sr-22s.

Video is scary, and the story is so sad.

[Edited 2016-06-11 23:05:54]
 
A332DTW
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:17 am

No chance at a spin recovery that low to the ground, or for the chute to be effective either. Granted I'm not sure at which point she lost control, but if it was less then 500 ft above ground, the chute would not have helped.

Tragic, regardless.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:37 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
The pilot and her husband are the parents of my sister's husband. Obviously very tragic news for the family. I have met all involved, and had several conversations with the pilot regarding flying.

So sorry for your loss. Oh man .
 
Okie
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 7):
Maybe a sharp left turn coupled with full power torque on the go around caused the plane to bank too far, then a left wing stall into a spin? That's happened a couple times before with cirrus sr-22s

I do not know about the full power torque but you are correct that the Cirrus has had several accidents from letting the speed decay to the point of not providing enough lift because of the banking.

I suspect from what appears to be flat spin that the pilot got caught trying to navigate instead of monitoring speed.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 4):
No fire and no fuel at the crash site could be starvation also

Possibly but it was indicated the tanks were ruptured and leaked fuel. Because of the leaked fuel they were going to have problems determining how much the plane had at its resting place.
I will point out in the video that you can see the shadow of the prop rotating before the actual plane came into view.
It could be scan rate of the camera but it seemed to be turning pretty slow.

Okie
 
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larshjort
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:41 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
The parachute deployment itself doesn't damage the aircraft, it's the hard landing after that. But it's not a given, several have been repaired.

Do you have any links to this? The cables for the parachute on a SR-20 is routed underneath the GFRP skin which will rip open when it is deployed. It is quite a large repair to be performed.
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trnswrld
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:03 pm

First off Jetmatt777 sorry for the loss in your family. Like any accident this is terrible and I feel bad here as I can see both sides of this being a GA pilot and a controller.
This was definitely a busy time at this airport and would be a bit much for any GA pilot. I think the controllers did ok and were relatively patient and calm with her. The last transmission was for sure over the top saying way too much including keeping turns right and fitting between two 737s. At this point I think she should have said ok this is getting out of hand lets get out of this area and try again either elsewhere or give me a nice straight in approach when your able. It was just not a good place to be for a inexperienced pilot.
As far as what happened, obviously the airplane got away from her and whether that was due to fuel starvation or a stall I'm not sure. I also noticed no fire and what appears to be no fuel coming out of the broken wings.

As far as the parachute, I have no idea either way, but is it true it will not deploy below a certain altitude? I understand what some of you say it not being effective, but I would imagine it can't make the fall any worse so without a doubt try to get that chute out if you need to.
RIP
 
andrew50
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:17 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 12):
This was definitely a busy time at this airport and would be a bit much for any GA pilot. I think the controllers did ok and were relatively patient and calm with her. The last transmission was for sure over the top saying way too much including keeping turns right and fitting between two 737s. At this point I think she should have said ok this is getting out of hand lets get out of this area and try again either elsewhere or give me a nice straight in approach when your able. It was just not a good place to be for a inexperienced pilot.

Have to agree on this. The last transmission was nothing but total confusion. That fitting between the 737's and talking about landing on two different runways seemed like a disaster waiting to happen, which unfortunately it did. So sorry for the families involved.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting andrew50 (Reply 13):
The last transmission was nothing but total confusion.

It was painful to listen to, and although it gives great insight into the thoughts of controllers, it doesn't belong in a 30 second long transmission.

I once had a very stern talking to from my flight instructor about "get-there-itis" early in my flying days, and I think that's a big factor in this crash.

Both the controller and the pilot were fixated on getting her in to HOU, even after two unstable approaches and the difficulty of keeping traffic separation, combined with confusion about which runway to use.

A better course of action would have been for either or both of them to say "forget it" and send the plane to a less busy airport, with more room to set up for a comparatively nice, easy straight in to a single runway.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
freakyrat
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:48 pm

Sending her to AXH with a nice straight in approach to Rwy 09 would have been a better option. I don't know about the parachute deployment but we had a low altitude one here between DAL and ADS that the pilot survived. The aircraft had been in for maintenance and the ailerons were hooked up backwards.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:42 am

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 15):
The aircraft had been in for maintenance and the ailerons were hooked up backwards.

"Flight controls-FREE and CORRECT" has been on every checklist I ever saw. Don't just twist the yoke, LOOK. And don't forget the trim wheel, either.
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:47 am

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 16):
"Flight controls-FREE and CORRECT" has been on every checklist I ever saw. Don't just twist the yoke, LOOK. And don't forget the trim wheel, either.

Yeah but a lot of pilots might not notice reverse control ailerons... would you notice a down aileron as incorrect when moving the yoke the direction of the wing? I think I would but I'm not really sure.
 
smw757
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:24 am

I am currently doing some flight training in the SR20. It's a wonderful aircraft to fly, and a lot newer and faster than the 1976-build C172 I'm used to flying; however, it does take some getting used to. You need to set it up for landing much earlier, as it flies fast and takes a while to slow down. It is also a lot less forgiving in stalls--I have to be a lot more cautious practicing stalls in the SR20 due to its poor chances of recovery if entered into a spin. Flying this plane has made me really focus on staying ahead of the aircraft.

As an aspiring professional pilot, accidents like these are a sobering reminder of what can happen if things go wrong. All I can do is learn from others' mistakes in an effort to not repeat them myself.

jetmatt777, I am sorry for your loss.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:55 am

Quoting smw757 (Reply 18):

I am currently doing some flight training in the SR20. It's a wonderful aircraft to fly, and a lot newer and faster than the 1976-build C172 I'm used to flying; however, it does take some getting used to. You need to set it up for landing much earlier, as it flies fast and takes a while to slow down. It is also a lot less forgiving in stalls--I have to be a lot more cautious practicing stalls in the SR20 due to its poor chances of recovery if entered into a spin. Flying this plane has made me really focus on staying ahead of the aircraft.

I think once you really get used to the aircraft, you'll love it. It's a joy to fly. The engineers took everything into consideration when designing this airplane, and it proves its worth: http://www.kineticlearning.com/pilot...ld/safety/06_05/article_06_03.html
 
barney captain
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
A better course of action would have been for either or both of them to say "forget it" and send the plane to a less busy airport, with more room to set up for a comparatively nice, easy straight in to a single runway.

Either or both?

I'm sorry, but she was the PIC and the only one in position to decide to divert.

That is way out of the hands of ATC.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Slcpilot
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:05 am

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 15):
but we had a low altitude one here between DAL and ADS that the pilot survived. The aircraft had been in for maintenance and the ailerons were hooked up backwards.

The chances of surviving a flight with a reversed aileron are pretty close to nil. This is probably the accident you are thinking of. They lost an aileron (detached!). Is this the one?

http://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment...008X05290&ntsbno=FTW03LA005&akey=1

It normally ends up like this....

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...3a3c8c-9ba1-413f-9a0f-5a4ed2e5730e

That being said, my buddy had an epic save on a VERY high performance rc aircraft that was dropped from a larger RC aircraft with reversed ailerons. He rapidly turned the transmitter upside down, and with some help, amazing skill, and excellent CRM managed to land the aircraft.

Cheers!

SLCPilot
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b747400erf
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
From the looks of the footage

Some news sites had the video auto play on their main page. A very sad and graphic video, I did not want to see.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 4):
bingo fuel

This is not an aviation term. People should stop using it.
 
barney captain
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:25 am

Quoting b747400erf (Reply 22):
This is not an aviation term. People should stop using it.

It is an aviation term - but military aviation. It isn't standard phraseology in the civilian world.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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usxguy
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:17 am

but it became popular / mainstream when the Allegiant VP ops folks were driving the plane into Fargo during the airshow...
xx
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:49 pm

Quoting b747400erf (Reply 22):
This is not an aviation term. People should stop using it.

as a military aviator, it is most certainly a valid term and one I use often.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
b747400erf
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:07 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 23):
It isn't standard phraseology in the civilian world.
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 25):
as a military aviator,

Last I checked, this crash, and this forum, are about civilian aviation. Military terms belong in military only.
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:19 pm

I've watched the video and wonder if they were killed instantly, or if there was some small window of time they were alive after hitting the ground.

Pretty graphic video overall.
Whatever
 
trnswrld
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:48 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 27):
I've watched the video and wonder if they were killed instantly, or if there was some small window of time they were alive after hitting the ground.

Pretty graphic video overall.

Based on the video and intensity of that impact I would assume things were instant. They felt no pain thankfully.
 
dfwjim1
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:55 pm

Is there a possibly that this aircraft was overloaded with three adults and their luggage?
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:17 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 29):
Is there a possibly that this aircraft was overloaded with three adults and their luggage?

No, it wouldn't be overloaded at this point in the flight. If weight was an issue, it would have occurred at takeoff. This plane had just flown in from Oklahoma down to Houston and made several go arounds as mentioned above, which means they had burned off quite a bit of fuel (although that's relative given the size of the plane).
Whatever
 
Pbb152
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RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:45 pm

B747400erf has taken on the role of forum police. Everyone make sure to follow his rules. What he says matters. Pffft.
 
avi8tir
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Re: RE: Eerie Video Of Cirrus SR-20 Crash In Houston

Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:55 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):From the looks of the footage
Some news sites had the video auto play on their main page. A very sad and graphic video, I did not want to see.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 4):bingo fuel
This is not an aviation term. People should stop using it.


The general aviation equivalent is, "Critical Fuel." I have used it in the past while getting routed around everywhere on an IFR approach after a looong flight in my Columbia/Cessna 400 LGB-BFI. It is letting ATC know you cannot have any further delays and need to proceed directly to the airport. "Minimum Fuel," is also used commercially, I believe.

EDIT: Looks like Minimum Fuel is now the official term for civil aviation with the same meaning Critical Fuel used to have.

My first thought after seeing the story was fuel starvation.... no fire post-crash and what looks to be a stall/spin from the video.
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