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trent1000
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UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:58 am

Recently there has been various discussion about whether airline X should or could fly particular routes.
Perhaps the most sensible responses are that airlines fly routes where they can make money and that airlines frequently review routing options.

I believe that UA has long had the right to fly from Japan to Australia. Could they make a triangular, round-the-Pacific route such as SFO/NRT/SYD/SFO vv work? This would be an overnight flight each way between Japan and Sydney. Are there too many issues with crew, unions, layovers, demand that would not make it profitable? Note that Star Alliance has poor connections between Japan and Australia, requiring about 18 hours travel time via ICN, BKK or SIN.
NH only operates a 789 four times a week direct to/from SYD from HND.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:13 pm

Even if it was an option, why?

It makes no sense to operate that route with the services already offered.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:50 pm

New equipment can obsolete route authorities negotiated by (slow moving) bilateral treaty processes. Maybe 747-100s needed to stop in Japan or HNL on the way from the USA to SYD but modern equipment does not.

[Edited 2016-06-12 05:51:44]
 
flyby519
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:42 pm

I'm not saying this route is an example of it, but will we ever reach a point where a stop halfway is preferred instead of XX hours nonstop in a small metal tube?
 
sparkingwave
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:05 pm

Quoting trent1000 (Thread starter):
I believe that UA has long had the right to fly from Japan to Australia.

I remember reading in an aviation magazine long ago that United Airlines never had the authority to fly to Australia from Japan. When they acquired Pan Am's Pacific route network in 1984-85, they inherited the Boeing 747SPs which could fly nonstop from LAX-SYD. At the time (late 1980s - early 1990s), then-United Airlines chairman Stephen Wolf tried to acquire additional rights to fly NRT-SYD, but failed to get agreement from the Japanese government leery of granting even more market share to American-based carriers between the US-Japan with additional fifth-freedom rights to other southeast Asian cities.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 2):
New equipment can obsolete route authorities negotiated by (slow moving) bilateral treaty processes.

Pan Am introduced the 747SP capable of USA-SYD (from California) nonstop back in the late 1970s.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 3):

I'm not saying this route is an example of it, but will we ever reach a point where a stop halfway is preferred instead of XX hours nonstop in a small metal tube?

This point was never a goal in transpacific flights. Passengers overwhelmingly prefer long nonstop flights than interrupting them with inconvenient layovers. AA tried to introduce USA-HNL-SYD flights with no success before they pulled out. I believe NW also tried the same route with the same negative results.
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LAXintl
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:23 pm

Just looked up, and UA holds no such authority.
IIRC last one with such authority was Northwest when it unsuccessfully operated such a route briefly.
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cedarjet
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:43 pm

Northwest Orient flew JFK-KIX-SYD in the 90s with 747 equipment but it was a failure, even when they moved the US terminus from NYC to DTW (for better connectivity). I was a travel agent at the time and sold a lot of seats to tourists who could basically get a free Asian stopover on their way from the NE of the US to Australia all on one ticket — it's quite a dog leg — but you can't make money flying a 747-400 on a 12h leg (JFK-KIX) or a 10h leg (KIX-SYD) on backpacker yields.

Shame, was an interesting route.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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compensateme
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
IIRC last one with such authority was Northwest when it unsuccessfully operated such a route briefly.
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):

Northwest Orient flew JFK-KIX-SYD in the 90s with 747 equipment but it was a failure, even when they moved the US terminus from NYC to DTW (for better connectivity).

In short, NW was very successful on OSA-SYD (the route predated KIX) and planned to expand Australia-Japan services, but the Australian government stepped in and said no more than 50% of its traffic can be between OSA-SYD otherwise NW was in violation of its agreements. NW was then unsuccessful in moving traffic from the USA-Australia and the route ultimately failed.
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quiet1
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:10 pm

UA actually had announced and planned to inaugurate NRT-SYD flights, but in their arrogance of *demanding* daily rights, when they were awarded only 5x/weekly, canceled the service before it even began. They insisted on daily or nothing, and the government (I think it was Japan?) called their bluff.

It was a bit of a tough position for the HNL-based SENIOR F/A's who had bid, and were awarded, HNL-NRT-SYD-NRT-HNL trips only to have their monthly schedule wiped out and they were subject to reassignment on the days of their originally scheduled trips. Basically the senior-most HNL F/As were on call-in reserve for that month, which I believe was a November with a double-holiday -- at that time Thanksgiving and the day after were both paid holidays.

[Edited to add:] I failed to mention this was quite a while ago, maybe 20 or 25 years ago?

[Edited 2016-06-12 10:17:12]
 
NH203
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:52 pm

Quoting trent1000 (Thread starter):
NH only operates a 789 four times a week direct to/from SYD from HND.

NH879/880 operates daily.
 
bastew
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:58 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 7):
In short, NW was very successful on OSA-SYD (the route predated KIX) and planned to expand Australia-Japan services, but the Australian government stepped in and said no more than 50% of its traffic can be between OSA-SYD otherwise NW was in violation of its agreements. NW was then unsuccessful in moving traffic from the USA-Australia and the route ultimately failed.

I think that actually this was the agreement straight from the bat in return for the route rights. NW accepted these terms before launching the route but then (apparently) began to flaunt it.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:34 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
Northwest Orient flew JFK-KIX-SYD in the 90s with 747 equipment but it was a failure, even when they moved the US terminus from NYC to DTW (for better connectivity). I was a travel agent at the time and sold a lot of seats to tourists who could basically get a free Asian stopover on their way from the NE of the US to Australia all on one ticket — it's quite a dog leg — but you can't make money flying a 747-400 on a 12h leg (JFK-KIX) or a 10h leg (KIX-SYD) on backpacker yields.

The SYD-ITM sector was on a 747-100 that sat for 2 or 3 days on the ground in SYD. The SYD-JFK tickets were sold for about AUD1400 return (cheap in those days) but back then the AUD was semi-worthless, hence why AA/CO pulled out of Australia.

Quoting bastew (Reply 10):
I think that actually this was the agreement straight from the bat in return for the route rights. NW accepted these terms before launching the route but then (apparently) began to flaunt it.

It was blatant flaunting- I did a university paper on this case. NW hired a PR company, Fordham Communications (their office was inside the NW office and the boss was mates with the NW country manager- I wont say anything more) to defend their position. But Fordham refused to ever comment on anything except for the odd press release. Next stop- Japan Consulate Sydney who provided the actual air services agreement and the wording was quite clear; NW's whole approach was to argue the wording was ambiguous.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 8):
UA actually had announced and planned to inaugurate NRT-SYD flights, but in their arrogance of *demanding* daily rights, when they were awarded only 5x/weekly, canceled the service before it even began. They insisted on daily or nothing, and the government (I think it was Japan?) called their bluff.

Yes the flights were loaded and tickets sold- I think the flights were cancelled within a week of the first flight. I have a feeling it was Australia that denied the rights to UA, whereas with NW it was Japan that said no.
 
trent1000
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:44 am

Quoting NH203 (Reply 9):
NH879/880 operates daily.

Star Alliance website flight search still indicates 4 X weekly, but NH now shows daily.
 
MaxxFlyer
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:08 am

Aside from the aforementioned NW flight SYD-ITM, to my knowledge the only time a U.S. carrier flew to Asian destinations from Australia was Pan Am in the 60's/early 70's. SYD to Jakarta, Bali, and Hong Kong, all with 707's.
 
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RWA380
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting sparkingwave (Reply 4):
I believe NW also tried the same route with the same negative results.

NW also briefly flew LAX-SYD n/s on the 744.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
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eta unknown
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:40 am

The NW SYD routes were:
SYD-LAX 3x/week 744 (not enough 744's available to operate daily)
SYD-HNL-LAX 3x/week DC10
SYD-HNL-LAX 1x/week 742
SYD-ITM-JFK (then DTW, then briefly KIX instead of ITM): 741 on SYD-ITM, ITM-USA sometimes equipment change
 
COSPN
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:43 am

It never worked Japan was unlimited Australia said should be 50% USA pax but almost never was
 
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:47 am

In the last days of the DTW-KIX-SYD service NW was selling confirmed space revenue tickets to their staff for almost nothing just so these pax could be counted as USA-Australia pax and meet the 50% cap. But as previously stated the Australian dollar had bottomed out at this time so any revenue generated down under was worthless.
 
NH203
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:20 am

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 12):
Star Alliance website flight search still indicates 4 X weekly, but NH now shows daily.

The Star Alliance site is wrong, the flight has always been daily since it started in Dec '15. After all, NH isn't really known for less than daily schedules.

Or the Star website is confused, because the 3 of the 7 weekly rotations are downgauged to 788 for a few weeks over the Souther Winter.

[Edited 2016-06-12 23:25:57]
 
qf002
Posts: 3684
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:32 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 16):
It never worked Japan was unlimited Australia said should be 50% USA pax but almost never was

According to this source, it was the Japanese who called NW out for breaching the conditions that were set when the route was approved.
 
United Airline
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RE: UA Flying Rights Japan To Australia

Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:10 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
Even if it was an option, why?

It makes no sense to operate that route with the services already offered.
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
Northwest Orient flew JFK-KIX-SYD in the 90s with 747 equipment but it was a failure, even when they moved the US terminus from NYC to DTW (for better connectivity). I was a travel agent at the time and sold a lot of seats to tourists who could basically get a free Asian stopover on their way from the NE of the US to Australia all on one ticket — it's quite a dog leg — but you can't make money flying a 747-400 on a 12h leg (JFK-KIX) or a 10h leg (KIX-SYD) on backpacker yields.

I thought Northwest did so well on the KIX-SYD run that Japanese airlines did something to stop Northwest from flying that route which forced Northwest to quit the route

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